What a wonderful surprise!

I disagree with the advice to FAB to stay of dating sites for men who are self-confessed BBW lovers. For starters, what's wrong with having a sexual partner that is sexually attracted to your physical appearance?

On equal importance, she describes herself as morbidly obese (as opposed to chubby, or heavy-set). This is going to rule out the vast majority of potential matches. Of those remaining, how many are going to be genuinely sexually attracted to FAB?

Since it's her confidence that needs a boost first, I think she should start with the chubby chasers and experience genuine sexual desire before dipping her toe in the general dating pool which is going to be filled with far more rejection than acceptance.

Hey FAB, from one chubby chica to another: you can do it. You can love your body as it is, you can let someone else love it, and you can let go of bitterness. Definitely take Dan's advice but do consider some dating sites geared toward bigger people. Allow yourself to believe that the crap that holds you back is just that--crap; focus on identifying thought patterns that keep you from putting yourself out there and replace those nasty fuckers with thoughts that nurture. Everyone has dating troubles--not just the big girls--do don't let your weight be an excuse. Good luck and have fun in 2014!! Be safe out there :)

@4&5, I wouldn't necessarily call chubby chasers fetishists; they have a preference for a certain body type, that's all. Dating larger men isn't exactly the solution either because *gasp* big people have preferences too. If, for the sake of argument, we were to assume that all men interested in large women are fetishists, that doesn't mean interacting with them would be damaging to a sexual newbie's self esteem. She needs to experience feeling desired, she needs to believe it is possible to be desired. Five years of therapy and I'm *finally* believing in my own allure. One thing that helped me was chatting with men on bdsm sites --getting perspective on what turns men on helped me accept and believe that I've got the goods. Maybe FAB would have a similar experience in speaking to men who lust after her type.

I don't know what's wrong with dating somebody who fetishises your type. I have a friend who adores fat women. The fatter the better. It's an absolute fetish for him and he has landed himself a very large woman indeed.

He is a really nice guy and treats her very well indeed and they are deliriously happy together.

This is next week's column. If you want the column dated Dec. 25, 2013, go the Savage Love Archives.

"And if I ever get pregnant, should we stop for the duration?"

ARE YOU EVEN FUCKING SERIOUS

Dan and @3 jujubee80: Excellent comments for FAB!
FAB: Having been borderline obese until recently, and changing my lifestyle for health-related reasons, I can certainly relate to your frustrations about dating and relationships. Hang in there, and just be yourself, FAB.
2013 has been an amazing wake-up call year of tremendous growth for me. I have been letting go of a LOT of accumulated shit from my past (about 45 years too much), and am now living a happier, healthier and saner lifestyle after chucking four decades of excess baggage and white noise.
Good luck, FAB, and all the best.

@9 mydriasis: Double yikes!

I'm not 100% on the advice to NOTFEM. While I agree with Mr. Savage's "It's more important to be a person than to be a man" position, that wasn't what NOTFEM asked about. He asked about how to be more masculine.

@10 What Ted said.

@13 I think it's more Dan was pointing competing with your boyfriend [who doesn't seem to know he's even in a competition] isn't the way to prove your masculinity.

I think a lot of his problems could be solved by opening his mouth. Wants to top? Tell the boyfriend. Wants to not be called the 'woman' in the relationship? Tell the boyfriend to knock it off.

All the weightlifting in the world won't compensate for a lack of communication.

any man who punches a girl in the belly is a rapist - woman beater in disguise. please, please get away from him! it will not end good. also, warn all those you know about this creep! what a f-ing loser.

@14 Wtf? You know people fetishize weird things, things that they would never condone in any other situation. So just because he get's turned on by punching his consenting girlfriend in the stomach doesn't mean he assaults people. Just like rape play doesn't translate into the person being a rapist or puppy play means...well anything...and etc. Hell, I've done some light choking. Lock me up and throw away the key before I become a strangler!

Belly Punching a sexual partner seems not only dangerous, but beyond a kink or fetish. Without being judgemental, I think they should seek professional help. IMHO.
And as for the guy feels he can't match his partners level of agression in bed and is being "Feminized" by his partner. Get over it, is horrible advice. Talk to your partner about it, ask him what he wants in a partner and tell him what you want in a partner. That would be a good place to start.

@8 - Thanks!

I would emphasize that FAB should get over the bitterness part most of all. If you have contempt for men, they tend to not be into you. Being the opposite of bitter is as important as anything else. And if you have contempt for yourself, you're going to have a hard time not having contempt for someone who likes you. Good luck to you!

On FAB and the subject of OKCupid vs. more specific fetish sites:

My boyfriend (also girlfriend, fuck yeah genderfluidity) and I have considered ourselves polyamorous in principle (though not in practice) for the 5 years we've been together, and in the past year I managed to let go of a lot of the hangups and insecurities I had about putting myself out there again and try dating other people.

My first thought was to go to Fetlife and post a personal as a BBW, thinking this was the best/only way to find an interested partner. Unfortunately that fizzled- there were some replies, but I wasn't particularly interested in any of them. I don't mind being fetishized, but the chemistry just wasn't there.

So I switched to OKCupid and have since been infinitely more successful. I'm dating a very sweet guy in addition to my boyfriend, and seeing a few others casually.

I think the reason I've had so much success is because I'm honest about my body type and about my interests. I have a recent full body photo in addition to face pics, my body type is listed as overweight (so that people who aren't interested can more easily filter me out), and I screen anyone I'm interested in by reading through their match questions for potential warning signs or triggers.. just like everyone else on OKCupid.

Don't be afraid to put yourself out there, FAB- just do so honestly and with as much confidence as you can muster. I'm not saying fetish sites can't work for you, but I am saying OKCupid CAN work for you.

I found my GF of four years on Craig's List.

My post title was "Seeking BBW hiking partner"

I don't think that I'm a fetishist, I love looking at all women, but big ones just make me go "Holy shit" a little bit more often.

I consider myself a nice guy, so does she.

Just jump.

The magician Harry Houdini died of an infection that resulted when a fan punched him in the gut without giving him a chance to first tense his abdominal muscles. He had already had the beginnings of appendicitis, and the punch ruptured his appendix and caused peritonitis. Take it easy with the gut punching.

To repeat for BELLY, this is a risky thing. Some of the risks can be reduced, but there's always a chance of something going wrong. If that does happen, neither the hospital nor the police are likely to shrug it off just because the damage happened during fetish play.

To FAB, Dan's shy about saying this because of the hate mail that inevitable ensues every time he does, but someone needs to say it. Beauty is largely about the work you put in, and morbid obesity implies you're not putting in any work. Don't stress about pounds or waistline inches, but do pay attention to the effort you're putting in. Empty rhetoric about how you just need to love yourself and your body is a load of enabling BS.

Sidebar, when you do get into dating, try to avoid the word "fat" in your profile, and for the love of god avoid "BBW". Include at least one full body shot, and assume that men have both eyes and brains. Feeling the need to state it tells us that you're defensive about it and/or politicizing it. Neither of which is attractive.

@21 Snopes says probably not, a burst appendix from blunt trauma is highly unlikely. It is more likely the discomfort of the blows kept him from realizing his appendix was hurting too, until it was too late.
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/freakish/h…

@23: Merry Christmas. A suggested New Year's Resolution for you: I will stop projecting my personal insecurities onto not only the gay man who writes this sex advice column but also the many people who write into it.

And if you're feeling very ambitious? I will ask the neighbor guy who blows me occasionally out on a real date next time.

Good luck and Happy Holidays!

@23:

Who let Fred Phelps in here?

Lolorhome:

Good job on shutting up the troll!

Dear FAB, I suppose losing some or all of that unhealthy weight is out of the question, right?

Listen, how we look and feel is one of the few things in life that we actually have control over, why is taking control of the way you look so difficult, especially if the way you live is life threatening (I mean, there is a reason they call it MORBID obesity, right?)?

The cause of your problem is your relationship with food, not the fact that the vast majority of men find obesity unattractive. Looking for a way around the problem by finding a cache of chubby chasers is not the right answer, getting yourself healthier and more attractive is.

"Listen, how we look and feel is one of the few things in life that we actually have control over"

.... you must be new.

@28:
Huh?
People don't have much control over their feelings, just over how they act on them.

And the obesity epidemic is because it's so easy to take control over one's weight.

BELLY - As someone that does martial arts and gets hit in the stomach on the regular... if you're going to be doing this, get a chest protector. Google "martial arts chest guard" - you can get a tolerable one for under $40. You'll still feel an impact, but it'll protect your organs.

@28 - Morbid obesity is often a symptom/coping mechanism for emotional problems such as depression, anxiety and insecurity. I agree with Dan that the writer should focus, at least for now, on learning to be happy with herself.

Hopefully, improving her mental health will lead to a desire and comitment to improve her physical health. (And even if it doesn't, it's still better for her to be obese and happy than obese and unhappy.)

@9, is it OK if he punches my developing fetus?!

"Now I can't remember is it ALWAYS punch your fetus or NEVER punch your fetus. I always get those two confused."

NOTFEM things that his boyfriend would respect his masculinity more if he gained more muscle, but it just occurred to me that NOTFEM's boyfriend would probably be less attracted to him if he gained more muscle, might even dump him and head out looking for a more "womanly" guy.

There's no need to take shit from males FAB, straight or gay, the same as there's no reason to take shit from females gay or straight.

I wouldn't advise letting it go, but I can certainly understand if you don't have the strength to. I don't mind following the links and telling the authors to fuck off when appropriate, and it definitely seems appropriate as it has a very Kevinesque (don't know whether it is a she of a he so we'll just call assholes an "it")

Journalists just get that way for some fucked reason, but it's nothing you did FAB, perhaps they are just pissed off due to all the right wing bullshit rumors that get spread about them and misery loves company so it doesn't know what to do other than spread it around to those who look like their lacking,

if you really need to date a man, look in places other than journalists, because there isn't one male among them who isn't a lying POS asshole, so you might get a biased opinion posting here --- the hang out for some of the very assholes who give marginalized people a bad rap, it's not there fault and I don't think they do it on purpose all the time, many of them really are just that fucking stupid, such as feigning ignorance at statements similar to

"...when they are part they tend to be accepted wholesale. In the local group I've been to, there are maybe ten (out of ~50-60) people who are non-white and of those five or so are black. I've never seen anyone treat them with anything less than respect, I've seen them get physically involved with other people (and couples) with no discomfort on either part...."

now perhaps it's just me whose the bitter one, but when dipshits write shit like that and believe they were smooth enough to get away with it, ie, when you bring it to their attention they don't understand what you could possibly be talking about.

I know I wouldn't have a problem telling them to fuck off, but I guess the main point is to say something, speak up , and if they still pull the same the bullshit, if you'd like me to, I will gladly tell them to fuck off for you, the only thing I hate worse than males, is journalists.

so it shouldn't be any surprise the male journalists --- esp assholes that write that type of shit --- are not the "let it go" list, the only way to deal with journoterrorists is head on

Naafa seems legit, but nolose gets a definite " fuck off" vote from me

@32. Exactly. Food addiction is real and like most addictions is self-medicating the pain away. People feel sorry for alcoholics and drug addicts, maybe, but not for the obese because they can't understand being unable to stop mindlessly eating. In this society, even the mildly overweight get huge scorn and put-downs, so those who are really fat haven't a chance.

I know I'm going to sound like an asshole, but I think a distinction needs to be made. There are people who are just fat "naturally" for want of a better term. They could eat just broccoli, lentils, beans, and squash for the rest of their lives without ever losing any significant weight. Then there are people who get heavy due to health complications, medications and etc. who may or may not be able to maintain their previous weight. And finally there's the eaters.

So before we send the LW to a mock online fat camp, we should acknowledge that this is very probably something she's heard a couple hundred thousand times already which may or may not apply to her actual situation.

I really hope the title is a reference to Frozen.

Happy new year!

I will preface this with: I think this post will be unpopular with a lot of people.

FAB -- I don't know if Dan pulled his punches or didn't pick up on a couple of things you said. Your letter seems worrisome, and this is why: You say you are fat and bitter in your tagline. Your letter has a lot of 'weasel' words that triggered some deja peau for me. I had (past tense) some friends with significant weight issues that could have said your letter to me, almost verbatim. The truth for them, and I suspect also for you, is that they weren't bitter, they were actively angry. Back then I tried to toe the party line and tell them that there would be the right person for them, someone that would love their body type and their sense of humor, etc. But the reality, which I was trying so hard NOT to see was that they wanted the conventionally beautiful people in their life to fall over and proclaim them the loveliest of the lovely, sexiest of the sexy, etc. They were bitter and angry because they thought that they had been denied for cruel reasons a better body and all the accolades that came with having that in life. The truth was that they hadn't been denied anything other than an exceptionally good ticket in the genetic lottery and they refused to take ownership of their own situation and make the best of what they had. Their anger fed the problem and it grew into a monster in their lives. That monster destroyed most of their good points (sense of humor, quick wit, etc) and left them even more bereft, even as they threw themselves at the dating pool with ferocity. They couldn't accept themselves, so they demanded others do it for them. It was a bad situation that spiraled out of control and sent them on a dramatic downward velocity.

In one case, the friend let it completely take over. Having doffed a few of his responsibilities off on society, all of his issues became someone else's fault. He slowly came to own none of his own problems -- and if you don't own problem, you can't fix it. In the other case, the friend got real, realized that losing weight was both healthier and more likely to be attractive to others and started cleaning up everything that was wrong with life. I'm happy to announce that a wedding is forthcoming.

Maybe that isn't you, but it's certainly the vibe I got from your letter. It could be that you are merely trending towards angry. That's scary and I don't think you want to do that. I think you should explore, either on your own or with the help of a therapist that you like (spend all the time you need finding one you click with) why you have body issues and why you are morbidly obese. Go to a doctor and have a thorough checkup and ALSO go see a chiropractor or other holistic doctor -- they can find issues that western medicine can't or won't. They often can help you with bad coping mechanisms (overeating, smoking, heavy drinking, etc) better than western medication. You really need to find out what's going on with your body. It could be nothing, it could be something, it could simply be a lot of little somethings that add up to a real roadblock. Even if you are always fluffy, if you exercise, eat better and take care of yourself, you'll like your body a lot more and feel better. Feeling physically better often means that you can start to feel sexy and desirable -- that is, you can accept yourself and start to see the upsides in yourself. That will clear out a lot of the bitterness you feel. Trust me, bitterness is a special kind of emotional weight to drag around.

But, moving on, let's say I'm mostly wrong and that you just have normal hangups, and because of what I saw happen to a friend, I'm freakin' out unnecessarily. Or let's say I'm right and you get some help and you find yourself on the dating scene with the same body but less bitterness. Either way, you are dating again in this scenario. I know other people are saying yae and naye on the matter of dating fetishists. I don't think you should, and I'll probably piss people off when I say why. But this is what I would say to a friend, so it's what I say to you:

While this isn't always true, I've found that most of the more extreme fetishists I've met have some serious issues with reality and stability in their own lives. A guy that really loves his women about 40-50 pounds over average tends to be a lot more stable and otherwise normal in life than a guy that wants his woman 100-150 pounds over average. A woman that likes to be tied up and paddled a couple times a month tends to have their life together compared to a woman that likes to be a 24/7 slave, bound and naked and at her master or mistress's whim. I don't know why this is, but it's what I keep encountering in my own life. It's not the kink a person has, per se, but the extent to which it impacts everything else in their life that seems to trigger a sort of landslide of issues. It's probably, in all reality, simply a matter of their life balance being out of whack. We'd probably find a guy that was obsessed with stocks to the point of checking them every few minutes to be similarly a bad partner, or someone that spent all their time and money on cosplay, to the point of not paying the rent equally out of whack. But what matters here is sex like, so we're talking about that.

To connect that thought to your situation, you say you are morbidly obese. That means that if you fall in with fetishists, you will be attracting the most extreme ones, and as I've already stated, the more extreme fetishists TEND towards being out of balance in their life. You might get lucky and find one that is extreme in the bedroom but otherwise pays the bills, takes care of themselves and carries on like normal folk, but I think it will be hard to do that. Your first relationship, especially since you missed out on a lot of experiences in your twenties, probably needs a better-than-normal chance of being with someone that is decent, hardworking and caring even if it doesn't work out in the long run. So I say stay away from fetish sites. They'll get you a lot of sex and shooting, but I don't think they will get you much in the way of foundation experiences.

Good luck!

This particular LW's fat issue seems tolerably similar to a trans issue. Given how Mr Savage came down so heavily pro-Mr Angel over the question of seeking out chasers, I'm almost surprised he's fairly neutral on this one, although I've no disagreement with his thinking that that isn't the immediate point of concern.

I do think that the Good Riddance Attitude towards people with dealbreakers is a bit harsh, although the many who do Run Away Screaming justify that. It may be helpful in the short term to denigrate people who choose to Part Respectfully With Regret, but in the long run I don't think it improves the world.
**********

For the second letter, it's just fortunate they consulted an expert this early. As for the concluding question, LW should watch the second season of The Tudors, outsource with thanks, and be pleased that she will not be beheaded if she fails to produce a male heir.
**********

As for Door Number Three, I almost have a feeling that the LW actually might have a good case if he weren't completely focusing on the wrong thing. I don't even recognize this version of how sex occurs, and can only refer to Mr Rhys Meyers and Mr Cavill arm wrestling, with the prize changing from staying at court to the winner getting to decide who does what to whom.

Mr Savage's first paragraph of response seems irreproachable. The second seems to fall into the trap of assuming there's only one MF in a couple. Just because the LW may earn a DYA doesn't mean that DTMFA can't also apply.

I'm not sure why Mr Savage seems to approve of BF's using "joking" to mask a genuine preference. It's hard to conceive of how the letter if written by the BF from the other side of this could be phrased to get a positive and empathetic response. Maybe if it's entirely related to who gets to do what to whom in bed that might be one thing, but even then it still feels as if there's an element of bullying about this that really only works for people who like that sort of thing. I strongly wish the letter had provided particulars that BF does X, Y and Z instead of focusing almost exclusively on LW's obsession with his own being smaller and less athletic.

I think I shall avoid the temptation to tell LW to "feminize" BF back, although that might be the most interesting course of action to see play out. Kill insects. Pay for things. Move heavy furniture. It's perhaps not the ideal, but one does know of couples who maintain a gender balance important to one or both parties by dividing up who gets which role under what circumstances instead of striving for equality across the board. (I personally knew the absolute poster couple for this, though I think it was put on them by appearances to some extent, as one was nearly a foot taller and had a more obvious athleticism, although the smaller one was better at most sports. They had a shared kink, and, contrary to appearances, the smaller of the two was almost always in the power role.)

Happy New Year!

Peace

In comment 41, MameSnidely wrote: ...and ALSO go see a chiropractor or other holistic doctor -- they can find issues that western medicine can't or won't.

Have you ever considered that that's because these issues don't exist and alternative medicine is complete bullshit? Ya' think? Maybe?

I feel like if you have to ask if you should have your partner stop punching your belly if you get pregnant, you shouldn't be getting pregnant in the first place.

@41 LOL

@44 -- hold yer horses there. I do believe that there is some serious quackery out there, but for the most part, my chiropractor has been a godsend. Case in point: I went to western doctors for years with numbness in my hands and random full-body spasms. I was put through a brutal number of tests looking for diabetes, lupus, MS, etc, and so forth. Some of them were horrible. I kept asking -- could this be due to a pinched nerve. And they kept telling me that no, it couldn't be that.

I was in agony for a month and finally woke up one morning feeling so bad that I gave in and went to a 'quack.' He took some x-rays (I'd asked my doc for these and not gotten any.) Sure enough, I had a pinched nerve and a fractured vertebrae that western medicine never found and never treated. Treated, I am much better and have lost weight because I can move again. Yippeee.

Happy New year Dan and family, and fellow Savage Lovers !

Special extra kisses for lolorhone (swoon), auntie grizelda (yay !), Married in MA, nocutename, vennominon (I finally read your seven veils comment : spot on), mydriasis, migrationist, Lissa, AFinch, EricaP, seandr (mraow), alguna rubia, avast2006, jujube80, fortunate, Ophian, er... I'm sure I'm forgetting several people I like, so sorry... and of course, Hunter78 !

I wish to all of you, to your beloved and to the ones who love you, a good health, no money troubles, and a sweet light year 2014 !

Thanks Sissoucat :)

@47 If X-rays are not western medecine, I don't know what is ?

Maybe your problem with "western medicine" is a problem with "quack American doctors who won't prescribe the right exams because American health system is stuck in the early 20th century where only rich people get medical care that should be standard practice".

Obamacare should improve that greatly, over the next years : another reason to be happy for the new year !

Chiropractors are notorious among medical professionals for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertebral_a…

Bottom line: anything beneficial chiropractors do can be done by a physiotherapist and/or RMT.

I don't let people I care about go to chiropractors.

@47: X-rays, fractured vertebrae, and pinched nerves are western medicine. Chiropractors believe they can adjust magical energy fields. Just because you encountered crappy doctors and a chiropractor happened to be the first person who applied science-based medicine correctly doesn't mean the chiropractor's unfounded, supernatural beliefs are true.

Obviously, the feminizing guy gets off on the role play in particular defining the top role in terms of traditional gender norms. If you want him, you're probably best off playing along and being the bottom so long as he understands that it's really just play. With the right guy, I'd find that really hot, but it doesn't sound like you do. So maybe you're just not sexually compatible enough and should move on.

"People feel sorry for alcoholics and drug addicts, maybe, but not for the obese because they can't understand being unable to stop mindlessly eating. In this society, even the mildly overweight get huge scorn and put-downs, so those who are really fat haven't a chance. "

Um, I don't think it's that simple.
Yes, society has a hard time grasping food addiction and it does tend to slip into the "moral weakness" explanation borderline universally for over-eaters. But that viewpoint has hardly disappeared when it comes to drug addicts and while people feel quite socially righteous shitting on the overweight drug addicts are treated as subhuman in a way that isn't matched by fat-shaming. There are still plenty of people who are quite happy to say that drug addicts should die.

In other words, I think attitudes to drug addiction are more varied while overweight people get more consistent disdain, but drug addicts do get the worst of the worst and they are by no means out of the woods in terms of social standing.

Thanks, sissoucat! I wish the same for you.

MameSnidely, some awfully interesting points you made @41. Food for thought, indeed, especially when it comes to how stable or balanced the person with the extreme kink or preference is.

Mr. Ven: thank you for the New Year's present of the image of Henry Cavil and Jonathan Rhys-Meyers reprising their Tudors roles with the ending you envisioned.

As far as NOTFEM's problem goes, I find true masculinity to be in the mind, attitude, and behavior of the holder as well as the beholder. In other words, NOTFEM can only be de-masculinized if he allows his boyfriend's treatment of him to take away his sense of masculinity. (Mr. Ven, I find this letter to be more worthy of comparison to Buck Angel and trans-masculinity than the first one, though I see the point of comparison there.)

NOTFEM, you're not a woman, you're a man. You're a man who doesn't like being feminized. So speak up and say so to your boyfriend. Waiting two years to build muscle is unnecessary and means you establish a more deeply-entrenched occupation of a role you don't want. So you need to have a conversation, and it should happen at a time when you're both clothed, sex isn't in the immediate offing, you're both calm and relaxed, and you two have plenty of time. Start by telling him that you don't feel like a woman, that you're not a woman, that you don't want to be seen or reacted to as a woman, and that it disturbs you that your boyfriend seems to want to make you into a woman.

It could be that your boyfriend has no idea how upset his "you're the woman" comments make you, and will simply stop making them, but that seems unlikely.

More likely, his comparing you to a woman has more to do with his own attitudes/feelings about sexuality than it does with you in any way being feminine. All the muscle/weight in the world won't address that, but some real introspection on his part may be a start. Does he need his boyfriend to somehow be a "woman" in order for him to be a "real" man?

There is a chance that the result of this conversation will mean that you two will break up, but if that's the case, then this relationship wasn't meant to be.

You are a man. You want to love a man who wants to be with a man. You want to be seen as the man you are. These are reasonable desires. If he can't provide you with them, you need to find someone else who can, not spend hours trying bulk up so you can wrestle him into agreement.

Good luck!

"FAB, convene a small panel of friends to serve as your bullshit detectors. Your own bullshit detectors aren't going to be good-- they also don't develop until you start dating-- so ask your panel to point out any red flags you've missed."

I was nodding along with Dan's good advice about self love and gaining experience and letting go of bitterness until I got to the bit about that panel of friends. How many of us, fat or thin, at any age, popular or not, how many of us could convene such a panel?

I know I couldn't. Dan makes it sound as normal as going to school, like maybe there are a few odd folks who haven't, but the rest of us have. He makes it sound like there's something weird and pitiable about not having a panel who can give advice like that, like there are professional bullshit detectors running around glad to share their experience, like you can find such people anywhere.

I'm asking myself who would be on that panel at different stages of my life. I've certainly had friends, and some of them have been pretty smart and intuitive, but someone I could bring out to meet the guy I was considering dating so as to vet him? I can't think of one person who has the capability do such a thing much less be willing to. I'm trying to picture how this would work. He and I would be texting. I'd be ready to meet him for coffee, but before I confirm our date, I tell him that he has to meet my panel first and then we can proceed? This sounds like a bad made for t.v. movie. Or maybe the idea is that he and I would be dating a bit, and I convene my panel before sleeping with him. Please, Oh Great Dan, tell me how this works because I'm dying to know.

Happy New Year!

FAB, if you are a woman, you are better off being a lesbian, and the panel of friends is a great idea, however if it includes unethical surveillance and hacking computers I would say that sort of shit is a definite no no

nocutename @55, I agree with your points, but I would also want to encourage NOTFEM to think a little bit about his attitudes toward women and whether he's being decent toward the women in his life (the barrista, his female co-workers, his mother, etc.)... whether he's thinking of them as people first, and only incidentally as women.

Crinoline @56, maybe FAB could just come here and let the Slog commentariat decide which of her suitors are sane and which "have some serious issues with reality and stability in their own lives," as MameSnidely put it so well.

Happy 2014, everyone!

words formed by adding one letter before or after Aussie (emboldened) and tossee or Dan the tosser:
m - meioses n - eosines p - poesies r - soirees

According to List. as in C.A.L , notfem, the absolute best you can do is figure out when to tell people to "fuck off" and when to just say
an author's favorite civil saying "For You!"

Which I have no idea what the meaning of such literary erudite, Luddite bullshit, luckily the 32 month war of 1812 wasn't fought for nuthin, so, notfem
the best advice for you is to know that anybody who treats you in a certain way --- to make you feel a certain way --- than criticizes you when you do (feel the way their treatment intended to invoke) get out of the relationship ASAP, and always remember why such a person no longer exists in your minds world, which means, not only do you dump the motherfucker, after you do that, as far as you're concerned, the stupid assholes doesn't even exist in your mind except to thank God and praise Jesus you aren't together with an author or journalist OR journoterrorist

You should feel free to be whoever you are or even whomever you desire to be, and anyone who tries to tell you different, do me the favor of telling them to "fuck off" for me in every possible straight forward and ambiguous way you can think of, I can't stress the "fuck off" thing enough, it is absolutely imperative to Peace on earth, which demands horrible will untoward men, so that there me be good will toward women

@Dirtclustit, I never understand what you're talking about, but it sounds like you're in some pain. Wishing you find some peace this new year...

@59: Wow, drunk and/or tripping people seldom have the concentration to type up their ramblings. Usually you have to actually be in a drinking establishment to hear that quality of incoherency.

Ms Cute - Well, that's quite sound. Top Culture has much for which to answer.

As interesting as it might be to contemplate Messrs C and RM in the act of demonstrating the public school definition of majestic domination, I take the series as a sort of warning that it is best not to be too sanguine about winning. There's something almost post-orientational and modern about the Compton-Tallis liaison in the first season, and the flourishing of Mark Smeaton when the Boleyns are at their pinnacle, if not exactly what Suffolk means when he declines to join the Hertfords and his estranged wife in supporting the Reformed religion, at least coincides with the duke's lament for England's being merry then.

Most of all, though, I take as a strong warning the contrast between Katarina Cranmer's chiding her husband and Cromwell ("I am not anybody's dear: I am a woman, and I demand to be respected for my opinions.") and Katherine Parr's saving herself from execution a decade or so later ("I am but a weak and ignorant woman," or something to that effect). Society is quite capable of moving backwards, and I have seen people already anointing the same-sexers as the Scapegoats of the Midterm Elections, that big recent Duck flap being instanced as indicative of the upcoming Backlash.

FAB says she doesn't know how to deal with men in a sexual way or in a way that would lead to a relationship. There are probably as many ways to deal with men sexually as there are men, but if you're looking for a place to start, my advice is to borrow from Dan's advice to a 15 year old boy. I have that column in front of me as I write this. I paraphrase.

It sounds counter-intuitive, but the way to attract any sexual attention is to become an interesting person in ways that have nothing to do with sex.

Get interested in something. Try new things. Become someone people want to be around because you know so much about horses or woodworking or growing azaleas. Have an opinion on what makes a great television sitcom. Take up knitting or refrigerator repair. Read. Know something about current events, and be prepared to talk about the news in a way that's intelligently opinionated without being stridently overbearing. Be great at your job. Be a good friend and a good listener. Become confident in a thousand non-sexual areas.

Think about what sort of man you'd like to be with-- not his looks, but what he's like. Then try to be the person that guy would want to be with.

Work out because it's fun, not because fat people are supposed to. Pay attention to good grooming because everyone has to, not because there's anything repulsive about you because of your weight. Wear stylish clothes in good repair that fit the size you are now. That's not too big because you think it makes you look slimmer and not too small because you mean to fit into those clothes shortly.

Masturbate, watch porn, read erotica, fantasize, or do whatever you like sexually by yourself so you have some idea of what you like when it comes time to share that with someone you're dating.

This sounds like I'm giving you a lot of work, and maybe I am, but the truth is that's the basic footwork that everyone has to do, even the lucky ones who have BMIs of 22 without any effort. Do this, and when you feel ready, start asking around to be fixed up with someone who might like to meet you.

Mr.Ven: See, as per my post on the thread about women who want to be respected as equals but still want the "princess" treatment, we want it both ways: "I am not anybody's dear: I am a woman, and I demand to be respected for my opinions." and "I am but a weak and ignorant woman."
But I suppose we all want to have our cake and eat it, too.

Please, I beg you, don't think that the ramblings of a bigoted misogynistic, racist, homophobe means we are going into a cultural or legal backlash. If Utah, Utah can move forward, it means we'e making progress. There will always be the ignoramuses of the world, but they wield less and less power.

Ms Erica - Valid, but perhaps a bit of a stretch; that would be Correlation rather than Causation. I can't quite see his realizing that he doesn't treat the women in his life as full people and even changing that fact suddenly making him okay with letting his boyfriend dictate roles to him. Not that there's anything wrong with his undertaking such an examination - many exclusive same-sexers harbour dismissive or even hostile attitudes towards other genders.

Ms Cute - I left out of the previous post the conclusion that, even if the conversation appears to go badly, LW can attempt what Strindberg saw as his refutation of A Doll's House and give BF what he wants not only in spades but in no-trumps as well. If it turns out that BF wants a "womanly" partner, it might not hurt for LW to spend a week or two being the biggest Lady he knows how (I have decided to use the L-word and the G-word this year in as gender-neutral a manner as possible). That could provide a cure for someone whose theory proved stronger than his practice.

Thanks EricaP,

My comment wasn't directed at you, the timing was completely random. I hold absolutely no bitterness towards those who don't know me nor those whose hands may be tied.

AG,

If you ever spoke anything but ignorance, I might be insulted, but your complete misunderstanding of what is and is not science coupled with your astonishingly ignorant praise of it, makes me giggle.

thank you Allen Gilliam, I needed to smile on this First Day of the New Year

Ms Cute - I have no problem with people who warn me off having anything to do with them by spouting bigoted views - they're what I hold as a sort of equivalent to Mr Savage's people who Run Away Screaming from HIV+ or trans potential partners - good riddance to them.

It's the leftists who are penning the gloom & doom columns that same-sexer "intolerance" is directly responsible for the impending Republican pickups this year that will make 1994 and 2010 look pitiful who are depressing me. I just get cosmic vibrations of a ghastly sort of inner glee most of these columnists can't quite contain when they get to make us the scapegoats.

For those coming down on FAB, have you considered that food addition is the only addition in which the affected HAS to take the "drug" EVERY SINGE DAY in order to survive? What if I told a smoker that he could have just one cigarette a day, but he MUST smoke that one in order to survive? How many smokers could do that?

Um, apropos of nothing but aren't most cases of mononucleosis caused by the Epstein-Barr virus? (Sorry, I guess I'm the science version of a grammar nazi.)

For those here that think it's so easy to lose weight, have you considered the fact that food addiction is the only addiction that requires the affected to take the "drug" EVERY SINGLE DAY in order to survive? What if a smoker was told he HAD to smoke ONE cigarette a day in order to survive, but you don't want him to smoke more than one?
I've been obese for 37 of my 43 years. I can tell you honestly that it's not the "not eating" that's the problem, it's the fact that you HAVE to eat. I can easily go 24 hours without eating, and I'd happily go every day for the rest of my life without eating if I could. It's that first bite EVERY SINGLE DAY that's the problem.

Hmmm. After going back and re-reading NOTFEM;s letter, I think he himself has some issues with how he defines being a real man to himself, which seem to be tied to how much he weighs and how built he is (I've spent the last decade in grad school. I stayed in shape—above average!—but there was no time for significant exercise. I've started working out hard, but the going is slow.).

So he seems to feel that he's losing ground in the "who is a man" category. Or, in casting about for reasons to explain why his boyfriend "seems to be 'feminizing'" him, he's alighted on this one.

But it seems far more likely that both these guys equate being a bottom with being "the woman" and while the boyfriend may think NOTFEM is a true bottom, he may be a switch who wants the chance to top at least occasionally, while his boyfriend "earns" the right to top by physically overpowering NOTFEM. (Mr. Ven's scenario of JRM and HC arm wrestling for that privilege @42 seems right on the money.): I weigh about 20 pounds less than my boyfriend. I find that I simply can't match his level of aggression in bed. He has even joked a couple times about me being more "the woman" in our relationship—and I don't like that. However, quite frankly, it's not like I can toss him into bed and have my way with him.

It seems that NOTFEM would be happier if they were both switches and alternated top and bottom roles (I want him to see me as another man in bed), but the only way he sees this happening is if he can prove his status as a top through some sort of test of athleticism and strength (It'll be another year or two before I really reach his level of athleticism).

The whole relationship reminds me of a Grecco-Roman wrestling match, which NOTFEM is now asking Dan to referee.

@54 mydriasis,

As a parallel commentary: Addiction is compulsive behavior, whether it involves external elements like alcohol or cigarettes, human interactions like sex or love, food, or Internet access. While moral failure(s) may go into their formation, some form of biological retraining/rewiring goes into getting out of them. While I'm hopelessly simplifying the reality, addiction is a compensatory feedback loop that at it's heart tries to cover (usually?) emotional damage. Correcting, or at least minimizing, the damage is required to defeat the loop (while not allowing new forms of compulsive behavior to arise). In using the terms I have, moral failings aren't really appropriate descriptions of the compulsive behavior, nor moral uprightness in overcoming them (but the release still feels miraculous).

I'd like to point out that food addiction, in particular, is a ferociously nasty problem. Imagine if AA was redesigned to maintain a couple of drinks a day; we have to eat!

Peace

@72: And, Married in MA, someone can hide his/her drug/alcohol addiction, but it's impossible to hide obesity.

@70 CMS,

Surely you're oversimplifying things a bit: It is every single waking minute of EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Best wishes in this New Year.

Peace

@73 nocute,

It is with great sorrow I must mention bulimia, so not necessarily.

Peace

@75 Married in MA: Well, bulimia may be an example of food addiction/behavior, but most bulimics aren't actually obese, are they?

It's true that someone can hide his/her unhealthy relationship to food, if s/he is bulimic, but I guess I was thinking of the point that addicts are treated with more contempt than obese people, and I was noting that not all addicts are identifiable, whereas it's impossible to "pass" as a thin person if one is obese.

@76 nocute,

In other words it's all a painful, frustrating mess that is usually misunderstood (at best) or attacked (at worst). It isn't surprising that FAB is angry at her lot.

Peace

@27: Thank you!

@48: Happy New Year, my dear (and swoon yourself)! Much love to everyone you mentioned as well; there is a genuine community here and this past year would not have been nearly as good without you.

Finally, a shout-out to my internet husband Ophian. You've been deeply intelligent, funny, and sweet company as well as an expert flirt this year, mon chapeau rose. Before I die, I will make out with you. That's not a resolution; that's a promise. Happy New Year!

Happy New Year to everyone!

In trying to figure out why we (meaning some elements in the larger society) come down harder on fat people than we do on other addicts like alcoholics and gamblers, I think we ignore something basic because we're ashamed of it. It has nothing to do with how easy or hard the addiction is to overcome. It has to do with how repulsed we are by someone when we think of them sexually. It's the same with why there's been so much hatred and persecution of gay people. If you were thinking logically, they'd note that gay people aren't hurting anyone and would leave them alone, not go on witch hunts. It's probably at the bottom of why we treat handicapped people like children. It's the only model we can up with that treats them kindly while not thinking of them in sexual terms.

With this in mind, could we reframe FAB's question while leaving out the morbid obesity thing? Imagine this question came in:

"I am a straight 34 year old female. For a lot of reasons having to do with lack of opportunity and other things, I've never been on a date. I have no sexual experience. I have a lot going for me, but constantly being friend zoned has left me bitter. How do I relate to men sexually? How do I get them to see me in a sexual way? How do I look for a real relationship?"

In my case, I honestly don't know what I did to get sexual attention. I imagine it was more than sitting there looking pretty, but I don't know. For me, there were the men who wanted to have sex with me, and there were men who wanted to befriend me. The problem was putting it together in one man for the relationship I wanted. So I'm interested in others' opinion on this.

Crinoline,

For me it’s smiling. Apparently I have a great smile. People like turning it on.

A long time ago I read something by a lesbian about passing for straight in a work environment: “It’s easy. Just smile at the men, not the women.”

Ophian: Where do you live?
lolorhone: Where do you live?

Does either of you live in a city that's a lot of fun to visit?

@66: Dirtclustit, your dislike of me is caused by a misalignment of your spoofifiness energy. Send me $1000 by PayPal and I'll wave my hands and fix your energy fields.

@63 While your comment is easily one of the best, I'd only like to add that she should be a better version of herself. Regardless of what she reads, studies or does in a very fundamental way she will always be herself. I know that you weren't suggesting otherwise, it's just this one part that seemed off.

"Think about what sort of man you'd like to be with-- not his looks, but what he's like.Then try to be the person that guy would want to be with."

the belly punching woman needs to leave that man and get some psychiatric help. stat.

I love your advice for FAB. Thanks, Dan!

Mr. Ven @65, I didn't mean to suggest that treating women like people would improve his relationship with his bf. Two separate issues, in my view. For the latter problem, I would suggest the LW really consider whether he likes this "great guy" very much. Sounds like he thinks his bf is a jerk.

Crinoline @80,
>> For me, there were the men who wanted to have sex with me, and there were men who wanted to befriend me.>>

Presumably, the people in category 1 didn't interest you romantically. So leave them aside (or have casual sex if that's appealing).

Take the people in category 2, and flirt with them. Smile, as Alison said; maintain eye contact; touch their arm when you talk; let them see how fascinating you find them.

If that doesn't lead to reciprocal interest, then move on to someone else in category 2, until you find a mutual spark. (Added advice: stay in touch with people who didn't reciprocate; over the years some will become more interested.) This is all aimed at the generic you, not you personally, Crinoline.

63-Now-- Thanks.

58-EricaP-- Yup, good point. The regulars here are some of the kindest bullshit detectors around. We'd make the panel for FAB, but in lieu of the easy availability of running a potential suitor by us, I'm still left with what to tell FAB. I think I've got it. Don't try to get him in front of your panel. Meet his.

It's comparatively easy to vet a guy to see if he's married or he's employed where he says he is or if he has an arrest record. It's much harder to find out if he's a nice guy who's genuinely interested in you or if he's someone who likes fucking over as many vulnerable women as possible.

You'll have better luck if you meet his friends. Look for evidence that he has a group of buddies he's been friends with for a long time. See if you like THEM. See if they hold your potential relationship in high esteem or if they think he's something of an asshole. Convene THAT panel. And good luck.

Calling BBW fans fetishists is a huge over-generalization of a large, disparate group. Not that Dan is doing that, but some of the commenters have. If you can only get off to a hugely huge lady shoving pizza in her mouth then yes you have a fetish but the majority of chubby chasers like myself just want to fuck women (like the majority of male humans) and in particular like more boobs/butts than is currently fashionable. I have dated skinny girls just fine but I prefer my plump, fit wife thank you very much.

If you avoid well adjusted zaftig-loving guys like me because you think it's a 'fetish' then you are only hurting yourself.

That said, the fat activist thing can be weird too. Physical fitness has huge rewards beyond social acceptance. There is no reason not to enjoy your body and love yourself as it is but that does not mean completely giving up on eating well and getting exercise. My wife and I are both overweight but we can also hike, bike, camp etc. Some of the FA stuff I hear seems to say suggesting exercise will make your life better is shaming somehow. Don't throw out the fitness baby with the body-image bathwater.

Yeah, some BBW online communities--as well as groups and events that happen face-to-face--attract some guys with fat fetishes. But as one of them said to me once, "I like women who weigh 250 lbs, or 350 lbs, or 450 lbs, or more. Some other guys only like women who weigh between 90 lbs. and 120 lbs. Now tell me again, who has the fetish?"

And there are fetishes, and there are fetishes. Another friend, who is VERY big-busted, told me this about her ex: "I think if I'd been able to detach my breasts and just leave them for him to play with, he would have been perfectly happy and probably wouldn't notice I'd left." But they're not all like that! FA's ("Fat Admirers") are attracted to fat women, but some of them are perfectly capable of having a multi-dimensional, respectful relationship with one...kind of like other men are able to have those relationships with hot women who aren't fat. You just have to assess for creepiness and respect, and proceed accordingly.

And FAB should know that she would encounter all stages of experience and ease with dating and relationships in the BBW world. A lot of people are like kids in a candy store, having just discovered that people DO find them attractive, after years of thinking no one ever would. Some of them make some bad decisions, and get hurt...just like most people when they first start dating (only a lot of fat people do it a decade or two later in life). And some people go to events and dance and party and maybe fuck around and have a good time with people who are nice to them and think they're gorgeous just the way they are. And some people meet somebody great (or even multiple somebodies) at these events and groups, and fall in love, and they live happily ever after together...like I did.

Oh, and a note about terminology, for #22: "BBW" is a term that many people will use because it conveys a certain attitude about oneself, and because it makes a good search term for people who are looking for it. "Fat," as you've observed, does imply more of a political attitude. That's why I call myself fat--I WANT to attract the kind of people who are good with that, and to put off the ones like you who find it unattractive. Just sayin'.

You need to be careful in ANY BDSM relationship. However, just because what you and your partner like does not flow with what society deems "normal sexual" behavior does not mean it is wrong.. Before you do anything you need to educate yourself, know everything you can about what you are doing ie: breath play, waxing, needle.. Ect... All play has precautions. You would be shocked at how many people actually like pain and by pain I mean some like a little and others like a lot. BDSM is NOT a bad thing.. No it may not be ok for you... But trust me more people are into it than not. Doctors, lawyers, police, teachers... Who you see just a co worker, may privately rock the world of some girl who calls him Daddy and wants nothing more than to please him.. Until you KNOW the lifestyle and what YOU like and the precautions you should take.. Be careful! Go slow! As a submissive I commit to one man. If he says jump... I jump its because I WANT to.. But I have live the lifestyle for 11 years off and on. Ask lots of questions.. Just because they like to inflict pain does not make them an abusive jerk.. I know the difference.. My ex husband was abusive.. My Dom inflicts enough pain to cause both of us pleasure. He IS NOT abusive to me.. Understand it before you judge it.

Ms Erica - I'm glad you're not claiming that, although others have before you. I remember reading some book thirty years ago by some therapist or other who related how his men's support group had acquired a gay member who'd caused some irritation by hitting on several of the other members. When the group focus turned to working on considering women as people, the therapist was surprised to see how growing to respect women made the gay member attracted to them (although in rather a sexist way, if memory served, which was rather strange). I always worried that something along those lines would be promoted as a Cure.

Wow. Dan's post about FAB nearly brought a tear to my eye, because he was so kind and didn't try to fat shame her. Remind me to skip the comments in the future where all the fat shaming trolls hang out and try to make eveyhing about her supposed need to lose weight. Gah!!!

"Love your size" when you're morbidly obese? Why not love your smoking or love your high cholesterol? Asinine advice from people who want to normalize a disease. Here's what I suggest: Love YOURSELF, accept YOURSELF, and EVERYONE should think about whether they're eating too much or the right things and whether they're getting enough exercise. Everyone should also not be a dick to or discriminate against obese people. But don't adore your reversible disease state / health risk. That's some deadly stupid advice coming from people who are hurt by their weight or people's reaction to it and are trying to normalize a serious problem. After watching obese people get diabetes, lose feet, lose independence, lose the ability to clean themselves, have heart attacks, etc etc etc all day long in the hospital I can promise you it's not something to celebrate.

Yeah, I know a lot of fellow fat chicks don't want to be "fetishized", per se, but... I love the idea of being with somebody who is not just tolerating my body type, but actually really into it. Don't we all want that?

This sentence sounds very defining to me: "I find that I simply can't match his level of aggression in bed." What does "keeping up" mean to NOTFEM? As far as I'm aware there is no aggression meter that both participants in sex must score at the minimum level in order for happy sexytimes to occur, so it really sounds like he views it as a competition rather than a cooperation. It sounds rather stressful, frankly. Maybe they ought to try going to bed relaxed and casual for a while instead of all rawr, and see if that helps.