Savage Love

Great Pains


Great column this week!
Two things I wish Tight had mentioned in her letter:

Did she experience any pain during the gynecological exam? It makes sense that she would if even a guy running his hands over her jeans gives her pain. Or maybe not. Is it painful if she runs her own hands over her jeans? Is it painful if she touches her own clitoris, vulva and vagina?

That leads to the next question.

Why is she sure a lot of this may be psychological? If she's in pain when it's a guy touching her but not herself or a gynecologist touching her, then it does sound more psychological than physiological. But if that's not the case, then why blame psychology?

Since I'm not a professional in either area, my best guess would be for Tight to look into the possibility that her pain is associated with lubricating. If that's it, it would explain pain when making out with a guy but not when being touched by a gynecologist.

But yeah, see another doctor even if it's just to ask the doctor to recommend a mental health professional. Oh, and Tight, when you say that a gynecologist pronounced everything all right down there (love that quaint term), did you explain the nature of the pain and the circumstances under which you experience it? Because if you didn't, that could explain a lot. Doctors need something to go on, and pain is a pretty important symptom. If you just shyly and slyly went for a check-up, you can't expect a doctor to find what she didn't know she was looking for.
Wondering why CREAMPIE's situation is an issue at all. Is his wife expecting that after all that dirty talk he is supposed to follow through, and then she gets all disappointed when he isn't interested?

Because otherwise it sounds like he is saying, "Dan, help! I'm not interested in a particular activity! What's wrong with me?" Nothing is wrong with you. You don't have to like everything just because it's out there.

Aside from the prolactin thing, I suspect it's simply not as transgressive and therefore not as erotic when it's his own come. Might as well get all hot and bothered over eating a handkerchief full of your own snot. Sure, someone out there might like that, and more power to them, but don't go beating yourself up for something as ordinary as that.
Dan, what's up with your sexual advice to CREAMPIE? You have always told readers that once you've come that doesn't mean you're done! Telling CREAPIE that "there's no fix"? c'mon there’s something that enables a partner to keep going, one needs to keep exploring various stimuli, like smelling ABC's leftover dirty underwear after you ejaculate. Just giving up on the guy because he's ignorant on social issues isn't fair.
"Snatch-22"? Charming!
Methinks that perhaps Couple Number 2 found one of those people of colour with a slavery fantasy (so recently mentioned by a certain columnist), for whom being treated respectfully would spoil the mood.
Oh yikes and Holy Shit---AGAIN---!! I'm in exactly the same boat at age
49 1/2 with TT (Tight Twat--and I think I also qualify for TA--Tight Ass, too), in that sex for me has been mostly painful back in my active days. And this is largely why I haven't had sex since my divorce.
THANK YOU, DAN, for so kindly offering Dr. Debby Herbinick, Ph.D's web address and Tweet contact information.

My amazing naturopath has referred me to a local gynecologist in my neck of the woods to correct some very horrific uterine problems (ever see the 1980 Stanley Kubrick film version of Stephen King's horror novel, "The Shining", in the scene when the elevator doors open and the lobby of the Overlook Hotel fills with oceans of blood, and Shelley Duvall stands there, wide-eyed in horrified shock and revulsion? Um...uh...metamorphically speaking, it's like that for me every month) .
ANYWAY--sorry for the TMI--but to make a long, gross story as short as possible, I am scheduled for an outpatient procedure soon to correct this problem. Cross your fingers, everybody, that it works, and that my real-life monthly horror flicks will finally come mercifully, after 37 bloody years, to an end.
My deepest empathy and sympathy for TT. I can definitely feel her pain.

Dan--will you be offering "Snatch-22" t-shirts up for sale? That describes me to a T!!
I find it awfully bizarre that someone so seemingly experienced and open-minded with sex had to write to a national sex columnist for an answer to the bizarre condition of diminished sexual desire RIGHT AFTER COMING.

Who the hell doesn't learn that this is a basic, unchangeable fact of male life by like...the third time you jerk off as a kid?
I find it awfully bizarre that someone so seemingly experienced and open-minded with sex had to write to a national sex columnist for an answer to the bizarre condition of diminished sexual desire RIGHT AFTER COMING.

Who the hell doesn't learn that this is a basic, unchangeable fact of male life by like...the third time you jerk off as a kid?
Why not just end the relationship CWYWF? I don't see why you'd want to stay married to someone who has no respect for your needs. You're kids are grown so you don't need to worry about custody and if he wants a roommate and cuddle buddy I'm sure there are people out there who'd like that.
What's CWYWF's husband's health like? E.g. obesity + 50 years old can mean lesser interest in, and ability to have, sex.
First- regarding pain. A lot of doctors are stupid. I started having pain from intercourse in my 30s and my doctor sent me to a specialist with an eyeroll and "this is probably just the way it is." Turns out I had a textbook case (literally- my specialist got out a mirror and a textbook) of a condition where the skin thins due to being on the pill for a long period of time. A little estrogen cream and I was repaired.

Second- regarding the BBC. A black man is not by definition a BBC and calling a man a BBC just because he is black is objectification (and breaks the rules about involving someone in your sexuality without their consent). A BBC is a sexual role a black man may choose to play. If he chooses to play it, calling him a BBC is naming the role correctly- it is no more (or less) objectifying than calling someone a dom or a sub or any of the many other sexual roles a person may select. It sounds like this a role this man has chosen to play with this couple, and telling him (via the couple) that he's doing it wrong is sort of absurd. He's the black man; he gets to pick his own role- ain't empowerment grand?
Fuck that, do not tell him what he wants to hear and then go out and cheat. Be an adult, be honest. If this 'wonderful' man won't fuck you or allow you to fuck others divorce him and find someone who fulfills your needs. You married him KNOWING that sex had dropped to zero after only a year of dating. This is not all on him. People are entitled to change- you have, he did. Renegotiate or leave.
Oh and btw, I don't think it's normal for healthy men to be done with sex at 42...hubby should really go to more therapy and/or a different dr.
The scenario in the first letter reminds me of Dr. Sapirstein in "Rosemary's Baby." I hope everyone learns the valuable leson that if you're feeling that something isn't right (e.g. intense pain, for heaven's sake) and you go to a doctor who says it's "perfectly normal," he/she is an idiot and you need to see a second doctor, or even a third & fourth. Sometimes we need to be reminded that doctors are human and don't necessarily know WTF they're talking about.
For those who don't read unregistered commnets, #17 is worth reading. Here it is:

First- regarding pain. A lot of doctors are stupid. I started having pain from intercourse in my 30s and my doctor sent me to a specialist with an eyeroll and "this is probably just the way it is." Turns out I had a textbook case (literally- my specialist got out a mirror and a textbook) of a condition where the skin thins due to being on the pill for a long period of time. A little estrogen cream and I was repaired.

Second- regarding the BBC. A black man is not by definition a BBC and calling a man a BBC just because he is black is objectification (and breaks the rules about involving someone in your sexuality without their consent). A BBC is a sexual role a black man may choose to play. If he chooses to play it, calling him a BBC is naming the role correctly- it is no more (or less) objectifying than calling someone a dom or a sub or any of the many other sexual roles a person may select. It sounds like this a role this man has chosen to play with this couple, and telling him (via the couple) that he's doing it wrong is sort of absurd. He's the black man; he gets to pick his own role- ain't empowerment grand?

"nothing ever comes of it" does not necessarily mean that he's prohibiting LW #3 adding a lover. It could be that he has - and thus he goes from being asexual to a-asshole - but it could be that they love each very much but are sexually incompatible (and still the idea of her being with another is hard on both and so it never goes beyond bringing it up). That does happen and it does not mean that he's selfish or, as @12 says, "has no respect" for her needs. He may have great respect but is just not into it. And what she deserves is someone who IS into it - as into it as she is and if they do love each other, they need to figure out how to solve the problem (perhaps an agreement that she won't talk about her other guys).

So I completely agree with @18 - be honest, make it an ultimatum ("I'm not ready to be sexless (and hopefully never will be) but I love you. So either I find someone on the side and we stay together or you are an asshole to control this and I need to move on".
I had a girlfriend about 15 years ago start having pain with intercourse. Took us two years of "it's in your head" to find a doctor who identified her problem as vulvodynia. My only advice is to stay focused and don't get discouraged. Keep going until you have an answer and a course of treatment.
Doctors often don't know what's going on--there's a lot of things that can be going on with a human body--and are not typically eager to say, "I have no idea what this is, but there's clearly something wrong." While some do refer you to the right kind of specialist, they first need to be convinced that there is something wrong in the first place, and where female sexual well-being is concerned, many are ignorant and either oblivious or embarrassed by the entire topic. Even gynecologists may not want to discuss much more than reproductive health or related issues. It is important that everyone be an advocate for him/herself when it comes to health. It's your body; you know how it is supposed to feel, how it used to feel, how it feels now, when it feels just wrong, somehow, and sometimes you need to go out and find a doctor who will really listen to you and credit you with knowing that something's off.

I'm glad TT wrote in and was referred to Dr. Herbenick. The kind of pain she describes is not normal, and shouldn't be responded to with a shrug.

As to the problem CWYWF writes about, it sounds like a classic case of mis-matched libidos. Or at least it should be treated as such. If they met when he was 41, and the sex dropped off to "nothing" after a year, then he was 42 when he seemingly lost all sexual desire or interest. And then a year later CWYWF married him, in what was already a sexless relationship. If she means that after a year of marriage the sex dropped off to "nothing" then he was 44, which still seems unusual, but it suggests that they married with an unspoken understanding based on the status quo, that their sex life would remain existent.
(I tend to not believe people are being literal when they say things like "our sex life dropped off to nothing." What she might mean is sex once a month, or 3 times a year, which admittedly, is quite rare, but not "nothing," but that's probably beside the point.)

But it sounds as if CWYWF was content with relatively infrequent sex or at least a man who wasn't too pushy about having it, based on her negative sexual experiences in her first marriage. If she would have been content with a man who just wanted to cuddle, she may well have really found one. The frequency of sex tends to fall off after year 3, which puts them at right after year 1 of the marriage, which is consistent with one of the two timelines that can be interpreted based on the wording of the letter, and if they were having fairly infrequent sex to begin with--she says the sex was "good," but she doesn't say how often it occurred--the 3-year-drop could mean it has dipped down to almost non-existent.

People are suggesting that the husband is gay. He could be; he could also be cheating. He could be not sexually attracted to his wife for any number of reasons, or no longer attracted to her, for any number of reasons, including depression, changes in her appearance or attitude, medication he's taking (SSRIs for depression are notorious for killing libido). Or he could just be someone with naturally and lifelong low libido.

Meanwhile, hers seems to have changed from what it was.

This is what people mean when they say they have "grown apart."

She can look for sex outside the marriage (though I think she should be open about this), but not everyone wants to compartmentalize their lives that way. The kids aren't his and they're adults; perhaps a trial separation is in order.
It hurt at first for me too, even just being rubbed down there by someone's hand. It took a while to become comfy with the sensations and a few years for me to recognize the "pain" was an aching for need.

Does it hurt when you masturbate? If not, then it is probably just being uncomfy with others like I was. But I was molested, so for years I associated being touched by others with pain.

I recommend buying a good vibrator and slowly getting use to being comfortable with sex by masturbating yourself slowly and relaxing into it. And when you hook up with someone, take it nice and slow letting yourself get emotionally comfy with the person. For a lot of women, sex is emotional and mental.
Dear CREAMPIE, that terrible condition is something very easy to overcome with education and politeness. Woman do that all the time, and it isn't because we're immune to prolactin (…). Get yourself over (or down) it. A sex toy can be very helpful, reducing the stress in your own performance so you can re-educate yourself one lick at time. Good luck
@9 - I have to agree, I call shenanigans on CREAMPIE - he doesn't have a problem, he's just bragging.

@18 - It's hard to tell from the letter - she says she's discussed open relationship, and her needs. I think taking a lover is OK if he's not willing to do anything except say "go without". I suppose she could say "I'm leaving, see ya!" but it's not really any different from saying "I don't care what you say, I'm fucking someone else", in that the end result is heartbreak for hubby, because he is not meeting his wife's needs. The net result is the same, so the path is less important in this case.
BBC is a role, albeit one that require the player to be black. Using that term is accurate, not racist. The role is meant to be one of objectification. Get over it.
As racial insensitivity goes, I wouldn't think "Big Black Cock" would be objectionable to most black guys. It's not like you're unconstitutionally searching him on the street without probable cause.
I'd be curious about what's on CWYWF's husband's computer. I'm 40 and always assumed my husband had a low sex drive. Then I found out (thanks to his forgetting to log out of our computer) that he's been jacking off to 20-something women fairly regularly after I leave for work. I've since spoken to a lot of my friends and found that this is actually really common.

Porn is making guys lazy, and they'd rather do their own thing to a new girl on the internet than have actual sex with the same woman they've been with for a few years because they're bored and have developed this sort of sexual A.D.D. There's not much you can do about that.
I had a 45 yo friend who suddenly started having trouble reaching orgasm. Her (female!) gyno thought maybe that was just age and she should accept it. Balderdash. I talked her around for about a week and finally she went to the Mayo clinic for a full work up - they have very comprehensive services, BTW. It turned out to be a treatable nerve problem, and not a permanent state at all. Never let anyone tell you your sex life is over! You are worth an answer!
CREAMPIE's problem is timing, not desire.

Unload in your wife first. Sit back, wait, watch ABC plow your wife for a while, and eventually you'll get hot again. After he comes, you'll be hard again and you can go to town.

Or, alternately, force yourself to do the thing you find unappealing just once. You'll find it hot a couple hours later and you can think back about the experience when you ARE horny again.
@17 DSreader, @20 wayne, and @21 nocutename: Right spot ON, all three of you!!
For those who don't read the unregistered, @25 has relevant experience (quoted in part):

>> It hurt at first for me too, even just being rubbed down there by someone's hand. It took a while to become comfy with the sensations and a few years for me to recognize the "pain" was an aching for need...I was molested, so for years I associated being touched by others with pain. >>
Women of a certain age (roughly 18-35) are generally told that any pain is psychological. It's horrendously demeaning and discouraging even when you know it's not true. LW#1, please don't give up.
So, husband has gone so far as to say, "I've had plenty of sex in my life. I'm just not interested anymore." There is a fundamental implication buried in that statement, which is, "Your needs in this situation don't interest me in the slightest. I'm happy with the way things are, and that's all that matters to me."

As far as I am concerned they have already had the conversation that allows her to go take a lover. He has already for all intents told her that her sex life is no concern of his. You don't owe information to strangers, and he has declared himself a stranger to her bed.

You also can't pass an STD to someone that you aren't fucking, so there is no reason for that risk to constrain her either. Sure, she should practice safe sex for her own health -- but his sexual health risk from her is already completely eliminated.

I disagree that ending it is the mature or optimal thing to do. It is pretty clear that what he wants out of this situation is A) to stay married to her, and B) to not have to have sex any more. As long as he is getting both of those, he is getting everything he wants, and has no grounds to complain. What Wife apparently wants out of the situation is A) to stay married, and B) to have a sex life. For her to take a lover is to see to it that both parties are getting what they need, and that the marriage continues. By contrast, ending the marriage would mean that neither of them were getting what they wanted/needed, and is therefore the inferior solution.
All those people that suggest CWYWF should get a divorce just because of the sex? Terrible advice.

She sounds like she loves him, so that's no grounds for divorce. Trust me. I did something very much like that. Worst decision I ever made..

CWYWF, stay married, if you love your husband. But, be honest, and persist and work through this one, otherwise you will probably lose the man you love, and regret it. Don't just go sleep around on him. Figure it out, instead.
Marriage is a special thing that requires work and trust, so make a good job of handling your side of it, (speaking as somebody who didn't)..
Unfortunate legal matter:

While I think it would be justified and ethical in these circumstances, if CWYWF surreptitiously takes a lover on the side, the husband, if discovering it, could potentially later use that fact as legal grounds, unfavorable to CWYWF, in a divorce negotiation/lawsuit.
I will never advocate being dishonest with a spouse. What kind of relationship would it be if the foundation of trust isn't there any more? No matter what indifference this guy has to his wife's sexual needs, if he learned she was cheating and lying to him, the marriage would probably be over. To cheat so she can stay married is not a functional solution.

However, if the husband just won't do anything sexual for/with her, even if he gets nothing out of it for himself, that's just selfish. Who wants to stay married to that kind of attitude?

The wife should have a frank discussion with him, and if he won't agree to either set aside his lack of desire to please her now and then, or agree that they can open their marriage so she can satisfy her need for sex outside it, they should part ways.
You're right, Chadira (@37): CWYWF shouldn't rush to divorce. And avast2006 is also right @36 about what's "owed."

But it's possible that they can't "work through this one," if the husband not only doesn't care to have sex with his wife, but doesn't care that his (non)actions are making her so unhappy. Avast has totally nailed the subtext of the husband's I've had all the sex I ever want to have for the rest of my life message. The lw also says that when she initiates, he turns her down. This doesn't sound so "work through-able" to me. Unless by "work through," you mean that she should resign herself to a sexless marriage and go unsatisfied the rest of her life (and at 45, there's a lot of life left ahead).

It's all well and good for people to advise that she is justified in taking a lover. She may be ethically entitled to do that, if they've really had a discussion and he's really said he's unwilling to meet her needs even a little bit.

But for some people, love and sex go together, and it's impossible to be having great, fulfilling sex with someone and not want to be part of a couple with that person. Some people don't want to compartmentalize their lives and relationships: this is my husband: he provides emotional and financial security, makes me laugh, helps with the household chores, and loves and accepts my kids; this is my clandestine lover: he makes me feel sexy and beautiful and desirable, and makes me swoon with lust that he satisfies, also makes me laugh, and is a great cook.
Great, if you can do it, but some can't. Some fall in love with their lovers, and once in love, want to make that relationship be the only or at least the primary relationship in their life.

This is a reality that Dan and his readers all too often overlook. What if CWYWF is one of those people? Does the advice to her to take on a FWB, whether with or without her husband's knowledge or consent seem like it will really help her under those circumstances?

I think they need to have a big, real conversation. Husband should know how much wife wants sex. He should be able to explain how he can justify not caring whatsoever about what she needs. Maybe the conversation will end there. Maybe he will hear how selfish he sounds, and will try to accommodate her. Maybe his obvious indifference to her happiness will be the impetus for her to leave him.
If neither of those things happen, then she should tell him she wants to stay with him, but she also intends to get her needs met elsewhere. She's not asking for permission, and if they prefer, she may never mention it again, and they make operate under a kind of DADT. But she's doing her due diligence and letting him know her intent. At that time they both might want to acknowledge that a possible outcome of her taking on an outside lover is that she may fall in love with this person, and it might lead to the marriage's demise.
Ms Cute - Except for being a little more pro-divorce, I don't disagree with #40, but I could use a little light enjoyment after the terrible columns at Slate yesterday and today. (I have not been on a bicycle for over twenty years, but am sorely tempted to go buy a yellow and pink helmet with flowers and wear it every day until spring.) Please take the following in that spirit; I add this sentence here to say that I do feel a little better having finished writing this post.

Assuming your described Husband and Lover are intended to be combined into one person, I congratulate you on having provided us with the counterpart to Mr Darcy's Accomplished Woman. Or were you being modest in your requirements?

"Helps with the household chores" seems to accept the notion that no man in any household formation containing at least one woman would ever provide anything close to an equitable share of domestic labour. (Not to mention the fun we could have deciding whether to measure the equitable share in Time Spent or Tasks Accomplished, let alone To Whose Satisfaction.)

"Provides... financial security" - while I suspect that the meaning of that phrase in the Economy Nouveau has come to mean "works at least as long and for at least as much money as I do", I shall interpret the meaning to be that such a husband uncomplainingly provides guaranteed funds of a sufficiency to allow a wife to decide whether or not to pursue compensated employment entirely according to her own whim, and that she could abandon her career at any moment without requiring any of the retrenching that was so odious to Sir Walter Elliot. Not quite as 1%y as one or two of Mr Savage's comments, so that I shan't call you Mrs Romney. Maybe it's a fair trade-off for someone who wields the vacuum bedecked in high heels and pearls, though - will you accept 20%y and Mrs Cleaver?

"Loves and accepts my kids" - I can go multiple ways with this one. It would be entirely reasonable to interpret this as specifically the comment of a woman not at the current time partnered with an acknowledged father, especially as there is no mention of Ideal Husband's parenting said children. But this gives me an idea that perhaps will please Ms Sissou, that opposite-sexer relationships should be run along purely polyandry-optional lines. My very sketchy first idea of a nearly reverse Atwood society would be to have universally available centres where male counterparts to Handmaids would provide optimal reproductive material on demand (in some weird ritual?), whether or not a woman possessed a male partner to take whatever role in the production or raising of HER children (the concept of paternity being erased from existence and consciousness, at least officially) she chose to allot to or require of him.

It seems potentially interesting that great cooking belongs to Lover and not Husband, besides recalling to mind Hildegarde Schmidt, who wasn't quite convincing as a lady's maid on the Orient Express.
Mr. Ven: I was trying to create the husband that CWYWF has represented in her original letter, with perhaps a few inferences (household chore help)and one absolute necessity for me (makes me laugh--which could more accurately be articulated as "shares the same sense of humor as me and we laugh frequently and at the same things). CWYWF said of her current undersexed husband: he loves me and my grown kids unconditionally . . . We have a safe, comfortable life. I took the "safe, comfortable life" to mean that theirs was a financially secure life as well as an emotionally comfortable one, and assumed that the husband was at least equally responsible for bringing that stability to the marriage. She also initially described him as smart, funny, intelligent. CWYWF implied that her grown children are not the offspring of her second husband, so it is particularly important to her that a current husband love and accept her children, which aren't his, and this man apparently does so "unconditionally." As a parent myself, I can understand how important this would be in any marriage subsequent to the one that produced the children. That their own father would love them unconditionally is to be taken as a given (though I know that it doesn't always work that way).

My attributes for lover (especially that he be a good cook) were more arbitrary, having been plucked randomly from thin air after I dispatched the obvious sexual preferability.

I laughed at reading your reverse Atwood society. My own idea is a lot more primitive and intended to mirror adoption. Whoever raises the child is its father, as the search for genetical fatherhood has been the main grounds for enslaving women to men. So it should be abolished.

That's also true for mothers : whoever raises the child is its mother, regardless of genetic links. The only difference between motherhood and fatherhood is that the genetic link to a given woman is pretty obvious...
Tight's letter made me think that her painful sex was entirely physical and that she needed a new doctor, but thinking about it these last 2 days has me wondering in another direction. What if it's entirely psychological? What then? Let's say she gets herself into the best, most sex-positive therapist's office there is. What might the treatment consist of?

It brought up an old memory for me from when I was first starting out. I was completely attracted to my boyfriend, would get turned on and lubricate when all we were doing was necking and petting. As soon as I agreed to "go all the way," (the term we used in those days) and had my ducks in a row as far as birth control, I had a few experiences of becoming totally dry and totally tight. This was from before the diaphragm was put in. He never forced me when I was so dry, and I never forced myself. Scared the shit out of me. I never saw a doctor, never talked to him about what was wrong with me-- and I did assume the problem was entirely a matter of what was wrong with me. I'd never been abused. I was embarrassed by the whole thing and did a fairly successful job of putting it out of my head.

If this were replaying today, and if I did talk to a gynecologist, and if that gynecologist did suggest a psychologist, what might the psychologist say? What would treatment look like?
Crinoline (@44): Well, what helped you? How did you get over it?
The problem could well be psychological, instead of physiolgical.

But the same somatic symptoms might arise from different psychological causes. I doubt there is a one-size-fits-all approach or treatment.
I wonder why the advice for CWYWF isn't to end the relationship if he doesn't agree to an open relationship. To "tell him what he wants to hear...and fuck other men" doesn't seem right to me.

I wonder if CREAMPIE's letter is real.
On second thought, the main thing is that CWYWF should be honest instead of "tell[ing] him what he wants to hear...and fuck[ing] other men" .
@21 - part 2. I agree wholeheartedly! Creampie says they advertised for a BBC, so I'll agree that BBC is the role that the gentleman is playing out.

The genre of cuckold porn is rife with white men eating the "BBC's" load from the wife. I believe the writer's claims that their companion is a "great guy" and that "you can find nice respectful partners on the net" evidences that the BBC/wife/cuckold scenario is a role playing adventure that everyone is excited by and that the players have all become friends, i.e. inviting the gentleman into their home.

Perhaps replacing "BBC" with "friend" in the letter would be more PC (politically correct), but political correctness isn't what the scenario is all about for any of the parties, even for the African American with the exceptionally large male genitalia. I don't know about the rest of you, but "fuck my slut wife with your exceptionally large, brown skinned genitalia" doesn't excite as much as "fuck that slut with your big black cock"?

Sore pussy letters aren't nearly as fun to read as a Savage Love letter that get's your juices flowing! Unless, of course, there are EXCITING details as to how the pussy got sore to begin with.
Dan - As for CREAMPIEs problem, He needs to understand that the majority of men experience the same thing. Also, most men, given a little time (15 or 20 minutes) can get an erection again, especially if he and his wife cuddle and she stimulates him. Once erect again, enjoying the cream pie is not an issue. This is experience talking :)
Did Dan just suggest that LW just go out and get some strange even if he said no way? What's he gonna tell the husband when he writes in about his cheating wife, after they agreed he wasn't into her looking outside the marrage? DTMF? My advise would be if he says "no" DTMF, don't lie to him and do it anyway. IMO that's bad advice Dan.
@49 the difference is that they are advertising for a BBC. That is a reference to male anatomy, not a reference to a role. The person in possession of said BBC is a person and should be referred to as a person.

I'm not against dehumanizing aspects in kinky sex if that is what both parties agree to, but if anything, cuckolds are playing the submissive role and should treat the men who screw their wives with respect. It's the same sort of thing as men advertising for 36DD's. Some men have a kink for that and that's perfectly fine, but it would be wrong to refer to women answering that ad as "36DD" instead of as a woman, instead of using her name.

Thank you Dan.
@52 Good Lord, what would you have them advertise for, a "person" with a BBC? They were looking for a BBC and the person with the BBC was looking for a white couple - they got together and satisfied their mutual desires so everyone should be happy. Should they offer their partner therapy because you think he should be emotionally scarred?
Trolling by discrediting fathers who by separation are not fully involved in their child's parenting, let alone implying there is little to prove their genetic status as a birth parents ignores the body of research that shows that healthy emotional development of children is supported when their father is present in their lives. I'm guessing yours wasn't.
@53, no, they are looking for a particular anatomical feature, so it's fine to advertise for BBC. But once they have found someone with possession of one, then they should refer to that person by a term that refers to a person. If they are referring to the man's BBC, his anatomical feature, then that's fine to use the acronym. Dan is correct.

There has to be an already existing word that refers to the third person in cuckold, hot wife scenario, a man who specializes in screwing other men's wives--Shakespeare wrote all the time about men receiving horns. Notice the wife is not referred called a hot twat, but a hot wife.

@51: "What's he gonna tell the husband when he writes in about his cheating wife, after they agreed he wasn't into her looking outside the marrage? DTMF?"

Well, that depends on whether the guy owns up in said letter to telling his wife that he was "just not interested anymore." I'm pretty confident that if a Letter Writer wrote in to Dan expressing that a) he didn't want his wife to fuck anyone but him, and b) he didn't want to fuck her any more, Dan would rip him several new ones.

You don't get to want "I don't want you to have sex." You just don't. And the combination of "I want you to be faithful to me" and "I'm not interested any more" adds up to "I don't want you to have sex."

If he takes that stance, the ball is then in her court to decide whether to leave him or to ignore this thing that he doesn't get to want. If she decides to stay with him and take a lover against his (completely out of bounds) wishes, then the ball is back in his court whether to put up with that or to leave her.
I'm with Marrena @55 on this. He fulfills a BBC fetish; he is a person.
As I like to point out when I first start the dirty talk with a new partner (partly because one or two men didn't make the distinction, and it turned what could have been a very sexy moment into a very off-putting one): I have a cunt; I'm not one.
I usually love your advice, Dan, but I am a little appalled that you would advise a married woman to basically lie to her husband and go behind his back to "fuck other men regardless." What the woman needs to do is explain to her husband that he can't demand she remain monogamous if he is unwilling to fulfill her sexually. She needs to be up front about wanting to take a lover and she should seek other men and tell him about it. Her husband will either have to get on board and allow her to step outside the marriage, or start fucking her proper. Stepping outside of the marriage and hiding it is a lie and a betrayal, that's no way to treat your spouse.

If the husband does not acknowledge his wife's sexual needs and does not allow her to seek pleasure elsewhere, she needs to make a choice: sex or marriage to her husband.
@57 and 40, yes, I agree, but I also think that divorce is an easy way out sometimes for people who can't be bothered to work through problems that could be worked through.
I went through the heartbreak of that myself, we could have worked it out, quite possibly. Or not. But the point is, we didn't try hard enough. I would hate to see her suffer what I have gone through relative to that one. It was a huge thing and 3+ years later, I am still not fully over it.
CWYWF's husband needs to get a complete medical workup. His testosterone may be normal, but lack of libido in such a young man (yes, young --from my vantage point at age 70) is not normal and can be a side of a medical condition that needs to be treated, or a side effect of a medication he's taking. If it's not physical, they should see a therapist and decide whether the relationship is worth salvaging.

I disagree that "go cheat and lie to him" is the solution in any case. She should be honest with him about needing and wanting a sexual relationship -- with him or without him. A companionate marriage only works when it's consensual!

Joan Price
Author of Naked at Our Age: Talking Out Loud about Senior Sex
I'll warn you right now that commenters here don't take kindly to authors pushing their books

Marrena Lindberg
Author of The Orgasmic Diet
@60 (Chandira): I'm sorry that you have had a tough time of it these last 3+ years. I understand, if not your specific situation, the sense of wondering whether or not I made the right decision or whether things could have improved, especially because of my children (and the guilt I feel for dismantling their home and family life), and because the sexually fulfilling relationship I was hoping to find when I left my marriage close to six years ago hasn't materialized in any lasting way.

But I'm sure that CWYWF has considered staying with her husband--she seems to prefer to do that. People generally write to Dan so they can hear him say what they secretly (or not so secretly) want to hear. They want permission: to cheat or to leave; they want affirmation: that what they did/want to do/are doing doesn't make them a bad person.
BBC isn't dehumanizing, it's a fucking badge of honor!

Seriously, gay men and straight women take being sexually fetishized for granted. Speaking on behalf of all straight men, it would be fabulous to be lusted after for your cock. Signed, BCC (middle C = Canadian).
re: Careful What You Wish For

Been there, done that. As the male not interested in sex with his partner. Loved her probably more than any other woman I've had the fortune to love, we were the envy of all our friends...but we didn't have sex. My problem wasn't anything medical, such as testosterone. My problem was that I wasn't sexually attracted to her. We were, as in the case of CWYWF, more friends/roommates (she referred to us as 'cousins') Eventually she left me for someone who DID want to have sex with her. Sometimes no matter how much love is involved, if there's no spark, there's no fire.
@65 (Still Sad): This was what I was thinking was the most likely explanation.
I'm curious, if you don't mind my asking, what your own solution to this problem was? Were you just willing to go without sex? Did you have affairs? Masturbate to porn secretly? Did you either lead your wife to believe or try to convince yourself that you were just "done with sex?" Were you unhappy with things the way they were? Did she know that you loved her but weren't attracted to her?
You say your ex-wife left you for someone who did want to have sex with her, but how did you feel when she left? Would you ever have left or changed things had she not done so?
I have a practical suggestion for CREAMPIE. After he comes inside his wife, she should lie on her back and place the tip of a large dildo, butt plug or other safe, clean object in the opening of her vagina (to try to hold the semen in). CREAMPIE should lay back, take a couple tokes off a joint (THC relaxes you but is also a mild stimulant), and after resting 10-15 minutes, he should begin to caress, kiss and adore his wife's body from toes to head. As he does this, his wife should talk dirty about their friend with the BBC: how much she loves when he rams his BBC in this or that place, shoots his hot cum here or there, etc. After a few minutes of this, with any luck CREAMPIE should be aroused again and can proceed to clean up his mess. It may not be as exciting as cleaning up the messes left by their friend with the BBC, but should be do-able.
"referring to your regular third as BBC, or 'big black cock,' isn't respectful. It's dehumanizing"

And really, aspects of the whole cuckold fetish seems gross in a way that interracial porn isn't.

I suppose it's a little better if all parties are cognizant of racial roles in the taboo, so I'd like to believe people are. Considering how much this stuff sells in the South, I wonder :I
@29: "As racial insensitivity goes, I wouldn't think "Big Black Cock" would be objectionable to most black guys. It's not like you're unconstitutionally searching him on the street without probable cause."…
Though "positive" is definitely subjective considering the stereotype that may (arguably) be used in some cuckold play.

I mean, why is it seemingly always BBC? Why isn't it just a Big Donged Interloper? :p
My heart goes out to Tight; I have struggled with primary vulvodynia, which causes extreme pain on contact without a known cause, for 15 years now. It took almost 10 to get a correct diagnosis and treatment that is finally helping me. If she is in the Seattle area, I highly recommend Athena Urology and Urogynecology in Issaquah. Their doctors are very familiar with this condition, have innovate treatment for it, and also have amazing pelvic floor physical therapy on site.
undead ayn rand knocks it out of the park again
@55: "There has to be an already existing word that refers to the third person in cuckold"

There could be, however I wonder if personalizing them as something more respectful than a warm-blooded sex toy would involve a level of intimacy beyond what they're interested in? I obviously don't dig that niche so perhaps someone else can better explain.
@72: It's a piquant combination of the sort of (seemingly) disposal partner in threesome with a racial "othering". I mean, there's the BBC, but what do you call the other participants in the roleplay? The "humiliated white husband" HWH? The "white slutwife" WSW?

Why are they taken as default, seemingly never needed to describe explicitly?
Er, "disposable in a"
Ms Cute - I admit that "financial security" didn't sound like you, but you could have been having one of your wanting not to be treated as an equal moments. Very Jane Jetson. But I got to go through the paces, and the somewhat reverse Atwood finally came into form.

Now that I think of it, it's the couple with the FWBOC who remind me of the Romneys. What a 1%y problem. Not to say that the letter shouldn't be run, but, if I saw that anyone had devoted serious energy to it, I'd be tempted to ask, "Whatever possessed you?" in the tone Miss Brodie used as if Sandy had given a pot of marmalade to an English duke.
As Mr Horton hasn't been granted admission to our secret club meetings, he is neither qualified nor authorized to declare what we do or don't take as a compliment.
Mr. Ven, he said you take it for granted, not as a compliment.

Mr. Horton, I understand there's the odd downside to being objectified. Which I'd give my left nut to experience firsthand.
CWYWF seems to be a classic example of the basic premise in life of, you get back that which you reflect out.

During the LW's first marriage, she thought, "the sex was so bad that I thought, If I could find a man who loved to cuddle, I could go the rest of my life without sex. Perfectly describes husband number two!"

She got exactly what she was giving out the vibe that she wanted. Congratulations, may we all be so fortunate and able to form our reality so perfectly.

However now she says, ok, I've changed again and I want something different. Fine, we are all allowed to change, and in fact that makes life interesting, but if her current spouse really doesn't want to have sex with her, for whatever reason and if he cannot be convinced to change, or agree to an arrangement that would make them both happy, after copius amount of frank communication, then she probably is going to have to end the relationship and move on. She should though, be understanding of her H and not put blame on him (for being her ideal man).

Since she was so successful in getting exactly the type of relationship she wanted after her first marriage, hopefully she will be able to replicate that success in a new relationship.

M? Bloomer - Does it matter? The person in question presumed to opine for a group of people to whom he does not belong, about whom what he wrote was uncomplimentary, and towards whom he has not manifested any notable signs of alliance. When Mr Married made sweeping and negative declarations about (all) men, I was less sharp about it, because Mr Married is much less heterocentric as a general rule.

To be fair, though, I'll add that, had the post either been very long and intricate in order to make multiple nuanced points, or had it contained a simple qualifier such as, "in my experience," or, "of my acquaintance," I'd likely have disagreed, but without finding it problematic.

But I thank you for pointing this out, as now I wonder whether I subconsciously did it on purpose, substituting "accurate representation" for "rational opposition" in Elinor Dashwood's reason for agreeing with everything Robert Ferrars said.
The couple in the BBC letter seem perfectly respectful, in my opinion. WTF can't they refer to their third as BBC? They like it, he must dig it, or otherwise he wouldn't be hanging around all these years(maybe he really gets off it in fact), so where's the problem?

I'm not American and just don't really get this march towards complicating the language and relationships with unnecessary PC that country is becoming obsessed with. Why it that by the way? shame, guilt for past and current shit the US has done to other groups? I really haven't given it much thought and don't know. But, it's not working, IMHO.

Now we gotta be PC in the bedroom too. Really? Isn't that the start of slipperly slope towards creating challenges with a whole variety of fetishes and kinks? I don't know, it just seems that it creates more problems than solves.... Maybe I can be enlightened....
I think Savage is taking a piss on us all anyway in his answer to the cockold H. He's suggesting the third be referred to as "Awesome Black Chum", lol, sounds like maybe the good stuff one uses to bait the water to attract sharks...

Survey 10 random dudes on the street and ask if they would rather be referred to as "Big Black Cock" or "Awesome Black Chum" and see what they answer...
survey 10 random "black" dudes, I mean....

... can't edit submitted comments....
@81: "I'm not American and just don't really get this march towards complicating the language and relationships with unnecessary PC that country is becoming obsessed with. Why it that by the way? shame, guilt for past and current shit the US has done to other groups? I really haven't given it much thought and don't know. But, it's not working, IMHO."

What's wrong with a greater consciousness for how we're all behaving to each other?

Kink is kink and what's squicky in the non-bedroom world can be okay in other contexts, but understanding the roles we're playing out is important to Americans and plenty of non-Americans alike. Other nations have been playing the Colonialist game much longer than we have, but that doesn't excuse casual racism.
I mean, what's important is an understanding and communication. I don't understand what's so offensive to you about that. Role-playing is and isn't fantasy. It's a reflection and amplification of everyday life, and can be healthy/cathartic, depending on how it's practiced.

I can't see how abstract discussion on the less-pretty aspects of where it originates from is unhealthy, though.
Men's hormonal balance is poorly understood by most physicians and even by urologist who often treat men for erectile dysfunction. A "normal" testosterone level can range from 200 to 1200, so a man with a T level of 280 is "normal" but far below the upper end of the range. It may be in the range of normal, but not functionally normal for him. Also, there is a difference between total Testosterone and bioavailable, or free testosterone. Some older men covert a good deal of their T into estradiol which can kill libido and cause ED. Boosting dopamine levels can also boost libido while lowering prolactin and increasing T. I would recommend a trip to an experienced urologist or endocrinologist to get a comprehensive hormone evaluation. Beyond that, there can be issue of hygiene, stress, and as has been mentioned, sexual orientation that contribute to the lack of sex in a marriage.
First TT-I will agree with all the people telling you to go to the dr. Just ask to be tested for allergies to your body and laundry soaps, lotions, lubes, and seman. You'll be shockec at how many people are allergic or sensitive to these items. You might also try a numbing cream to reduce sensitivity.

As for CWYWF-Your husband could be asexual and his lack of sex drive has nothing to do with you. Or it could be a symtom of an underlining physical issue such as diabeties, heart problems, or low t. I would deal with this on 2 fronts. The first is making sure that he gets a physical and you discuss the problem with a dr. Second tell him what you want n your sex life. It might not have to be him penitrating you but even taking an active part would be nice. If he continues to refuse to have any sexual contact then you need to decide if you want to stay but seek sexual release elsewhere or seperate and find a new partner.
@ notacutename

"I'm curious, if you don't mind my asking, what your own solution to this problem was?" My 'solution' was the breakup.

"Were you just willing to go without sex?" With her? Yes.

"Did you have affairs?" No.

"Masturbate to porn secretly?" Yes. (In addition to writing erotica.)

"Did you either lead your wife to believe or try to convince yourself that you were just "done with sex?" Nope.

"Were you unhappy with things the way they were?" I was...but I was in denial, and just shrugged and got on with Life.

"Did she know that you loved her but weren't attracted to her?" Nope. I know this is hard to accept/understand, but as we were both in denial as well as being in a loving relationship, it went on for years...with the understanding in the background that we'd eventually get married.

"You say your ex-wife left you for someone who did want to have sex with her, but how did you feel when she left?" I was heartbroken, but knew that this was Truth at play. That's what age (and enough experience) will allow you to realize."

"Would you ever have left or changed things had she not done so?" Probably not. Again, I was in denial. Oddly enough...or not...I fell deeply in love with someone six months later and realized what I'd not felt towards my ex-. I am still a little ashamed of my long-term behaviour towards her.
Thank you, Still Sad, for your candor. I'm happy you found a better fit for yourself and hope your ex has or will, too.

You sound like you did the best by her you could, and there's nothing to be ashamed of.
Thank you, nocutename. Though what I've told you is part of a much broader, more compelling tale, I'm glad I was able to share. (Maybe I should submit a letter to Dan about my other travails...)
@92 I knew a guy who occasionally helped out with his girlfriend’s domme business. There was one guy who wanted him to wear socks for a week and mail them to him. He did it but hated it. He felt objectified and it wasn’t fun for him.
Hey Tight Twat - I know vaginal pain comes in a lot of flavors, but if you do indeed have a tight twat, I highly recommend a set of vaginal dilators:…

Start with the smallest one, and lots of lube.

I also seriously recommend kegel exercises. Again, I can't comment on your situation, but when I had pretty bad pain/itching that seemed to have no physiological cause, a physical therapist (yes, there are physical therapists who specialize in the vagina!) suggested it might be neurological. That is: vaginal pain --> fear of vaginal pain --> constant tension in pubic muscles --> vaginal pain. My therapist recommended 10 sets of 10-second reps (hold for 10 seconds, relax for 10 seconds, repeat 10 times) twice a day. I didn't even realize how much tension I was holding in my pussy as I was just going about my day!

Last thing: are you on hormonal birth control? Some of us have sensitive tissues, and for some reason, hormones just make my pussy hurt.

Last last thing: when you're sore, try coconut oil. It's soothing and healing.
I'm kinda in that situation with CREAMPIE: I have these urges to eat my cum, and while JOing or playing with a partner, I really want to do this. But lo and behold — I climax and the urge is not only gone, but seems repulsive to me. Now, I've eaten my cum, and I've eaten other guy's cum (yeah;gay) before I came myself. I think Dan might have a point tho: once you're done, you're done. Someone else's comment about doing it anyway, then later on, days later, when you're horny, thinking about doing it again might be the thrust you need to actually go do it. I'll hafta practice on that one a few times to see. Thanks to whoever you are.
Re: eating your own creampie-!like the other commentator said, have her lie down to keep the squirt in, relax for a few minutes, and THEN do it.
Trying the second after busting a nut is hard- I could never do it. Practice makes perfect and doing your own esp...but it's great once you get over it. Lot less mess after and you're both cleaned up afterwards.
Smoking pot definitely helps to get piggly as well.
(The freezing the condom idea made me laugh out loud!)
LOL! Frozen cream pops---who knew?

Everybody please wish me luck with my upcoming sessions with my new OB-GYN. Hopefully, after my upcoming ultrasound I can be thankfully one snip closer to sanity each month.
good luck, griz!
In regards to pain with vaginal/vulvar contact. I went to six different doctors for my pain before I was referred to the fine folks at the University of Iowa. It turns out that I had two issues causing my pain.

The first was my skin was terribly sensitive and was being irritated by my laundry detergent, lubricants, menstral products and the type of underwear I was wearing. The solution: the only detergent I can use is All Free and Clear, no fabric softener (I use dryer balls instead), only Dove hypoallergenic soap, no bubble baths or scented lotions, only olive oil or avocado oil for sexual lubricants, all cotton pads and panty liners (some have a plastic-like film on the top), and 100% cotton underwear (other fabrics don't breathe as well).

I also had an issue with severe tightness in my vaginal pelvic floor muscles. The slightest bit of pressure applied to these muscles was very painful. I was able to see a very good Physical Therapist who specialized in pelvic floor work in my home town. My physical therapy included Pilates and yoga to strengthen the area around my pelvic floor, stretching my vaginal muscles internally with a dilatior, bio-feed back sessions and techniques for breathing and relaxation to consciously "let go" of tight muscle groups.

These two things made a HUGE difference. I went from only being able to handle penetrative sex for no more than 10 minutes at a time, to being able to go for close to an hour without pain.

DO NOT GIVE UP. Look for a doctor who will listen, be sympathetic and try many different methods of treatment until something works.
It sounds like TT might have provoked (or unprovoked) vulvodynia. Surprisingly common, but not discussed. If she lives near Vancouver, Canada, we have a specialized clinic called the multi-disiplincary vulvodynia program:

TT you are not alone and should not feel discouraged! I echo the comments of Harmony87. There is treatment.
100 and 101, you are correct. In Philadelphia, Drexel University has the Pelvic and Sexual Health Institute. Upon telling my gyn of my symptoms, she suspected vulvadynia but wasn't sure, so she referred me to Drexel b/c they are specialists in that area. I have a simple case of it, solved by using prescription cream down there and avoiding soaps and detergents with dyes and scents. No problem for me. I understand that for more severe cases there are pills or shots that you can get. I had been having sex for about 8 years when my symptoms started, so I guess it can start at any time.
Mr. Ven--"As a compliment" is an assumption, "for granted" more of an observation. It seems to me. I took the comment less as Mr. Horton speaking on behalf of a group to which he does not belong, and more as an expression of frustration at the limitations of his own.

And I'm sorry, I haven't read Austen in decades, so your references tend to go whistling by. One of these days I'll reacquaint myself.
@100 Harmony87, you might want to be careful of toilet paper, too. The bleaching process leaves behind traces of formaldahide. Fortunately there is bleach free toilet paper. Hard to find in stores but you can get it online.
For those who have it, reading the wiki page says that one test is to touch a cotton ball to the skin, and it feeling like a knife scraping you. I don't understand how it is possible to wear something like jeans, underwear, or pants at all if the level of sensitivity is so severe. It sounds terrible. I personally had problems with deep pelvic pain, when to half a dozen doctors, was told nothing they could do. Had surgery so they could look and see. Nada. Another doc found the spot later, but it was too far down in the pelvis to do much, and several years later it's not a problem anymore. Who knows. I did get really tired of being told that pain with sex for women was normal, that if it was in the abdomen they could never really locate the source since "nerves are all tangled up in there and pain can come from anywhere", and that the solution was just not to have penetrative sex, or to have very careful slow penetrative sex. Great doctoring all around. We spend very little money on research on women's health issues, and a ton more on men's. For example, they only found out recently that ovaries don't have the full complement of all the eggs you'll ever have by birth. You do generate new eggs. Into your 40's or 50's. They aren't quite as robust as when you were younger (mitochondrial/energy problems) but they aren't ancient. You make new ones all the time, just like sperm, just not in such numbers. We didn't even know that, and that is very basic science. Shameful.
I laughed out loud at snatch-22. I'm sure Dan did too. Nice one D.
Dan got so caught up explaining why CREAMPIE shouldn't refer to the ABC as a BBC, that he forgot that all important acronym, GGG. Guys have been dealing with prolactin for a long time; and if we've cared about being good, giving, and game, then we've found ways to work around it.

I'm going to assume that CREAMPIE finds the idea of eating his own come repulsive; because otherwise, he would just go ahead and do it to please his wife, even if it wasn't turning him on. So maybe CREAMPIE needs to desensitize himself and take it in stages, to find out where his hangup is. CREAMPIE should ejaculate in a cup, do something non-sexual for five to ten minutes, and then with his wife's help, get himself into a state of arousal again. Then, when he's fully aroused, he should grab the cup and take a swig. Do this a couple times, and maybe he'll be ready to step right up to eating his come right after he ejaculates. Alternatively, once he gets used to eating his own come, he could come into a syringe, wait five, get aroused again, inject the come into his wife's vagina, and then lap it up.

If CREAMPIE really hates it after trying, then he doesn't have to do it. But if it's important to his wife, then he ought to give it a game try.

Regarding CWYWF, Dan is wrong here and every time he tells someone to lie to their partner. Lying is for people you don't respect. And if you don't respect your partner, it's time to split. So, instead of saying "okay, I won't fuck anyone else," and then fucking someone else anyway, CWYWF should say, "What I'm going to say may hurt you, but I love you, and I value our trusting relationship. I've told you what I need, and you've told me you can't give it to me, and that you don't want me to get it anywhere else. I won't be happy if I can't have sex. I would like to have had sex with you, or if I can't have sex with you, get your permission to have sex with other people. But if you won't have sex with me, and you won't give me permission to have sex with other people, I'm just going to have to have sex with other people without your permission. I want to be as respectful to you and our relationship as I can, while still fulfilling my sexual needs. So, I will be cautious and discrete. If you want to talk about setting limits, I am open to that, as long as you understand that the final choice will be mine. If you don't want to talk about it at all, I will respect your wishes, and do my best to keep that part of my life secret from you. Just know that if you start snooping, you may find something. I love you, and I love our life together, except for the lack of sex. I need sex, and I will do what I need to do to make sure I get it."

"I had always thought the abuse of women in relationships (I'll avoid the loaded word "enslavement") stemmed from mens' desire for sex, domestic labor, obedience, etc."

I was talking about genuine enslavement ; think Talibans, ancient Greeks, harems etc. As in : the doors are locked and you're inside whether or not you like it, and we'll make sure that if you ever leave the insides of the house, fellow men will punish your attempt at freedom by raping you, acid-attacking you or murdering you. You can't deny that the pursuit of genetic fatherhood is at the roots of this.