Columns Mar 26, 2014 at 4:00 am

Centenary College of Louisiana

Comments

1
I have loved this column since way back in the eighties (?) when it started in the Georgia Straight (vancouver). Thank you Dan, thank you so much.
2
re:penis size. I'm 7" long, medium girth. It's perfect for my current partner. It's been too much and too little for past partners. What I've realized is that as much as penis size varies, so does vagina size. Penis size gets the publicity and focus, but vagina size varies just as much. Compatibility is the key.
3
So ... where do we find the Qs that you *did* A while you were on the scene there?
4
That first answer was perfection. Thanks, Dan <3
5
Questioner #2 should be on the lookout that the email actually originated from the alleged sender. It might, possibly, have been sent by his fiancé, using the guy's email, to see how his "female friend" might react to said proposal. It wouldn't be the first time...
6
Dan, Dan, Dan. Bill O'Reilly IS a PERFECT PENIS.
7
The question from the person who was definitely "the other man" in a married woman's life reminds me of the old adage: "If they'll cheat with you, they'll cheat on you." (And no, open relationships aren't cheating, but screwing somebody else and hiding it makes you a CPOS).
8
Re marrying young: I dug through the CDC papers on this, and the "marrying young" who divorce at much higher rates are teenagers. The younger the teenager the more likely to divorce. Once everyone hits 20, though, the rates for divorce after first marriage level out.

And the 18 year olds are divorcing at something like the rate of the people who marry after divorcing, and I imagine we all know some of those that worked out really well despite the odds being firmly against them. You marry an individual: how the statistics stack up shouldn't matter nearly as much as how the two of you work together. (If you're curious, the statistical key to not divorcing is to not already be divorced. After that you should be highly educated--more is better--and wealthy and Asian. There's a reason we don't tell people to get married only after becoming wealthy Asians with multiple PhDs, like there's a reason we don't tell them to reject all divorced people as hopeless.)

I suspect part of the persistence of the "everyone who marries under 30/35/current-age-plus-5 divorces" thing is that being young is something time has already fixed, so the answer to "what will you do differently this time" is "be older! Done!"

Not to say I agree with the questioner at all--you marry when you find someone with whom planning a future seems like a great idea despite all the limits considering someone else's needs and desires places on you. (And after you're both responsible adults, and no I'm not a fan of spreading "I'm too young for things I do to be my fault" out of the teens.) For some people that's a high school sweetheart, and for some that's someone they meet decades after high school.
9
I've been in 6 relationships lasting over 3 months. 3 of those had perfect penises. With the most perfect being the one I am currently with. Coincidence? I think not. If I include everyone I've slept with (about 20) the vast majority had very good penises. Maybe 5 had penises a bit disappointing (typically in girth or head/shaft differential). Only 2 had penises completely incompatible with my desires. One far too small. One far too large. So I'd say the odds are pretty darn good.
10
Letter 1 shows why I admire Dan for the way he can go straight to the heart of an issue and give spot on advice. Right. Parents who would reject children for their sexuality never loved them unconditionally in the first place.

Letter 2 is the example of where Dan and I part company. While I do believe the major responsibility for not cheating is on the person in the relationship, I don't believe that lets the willing third off the hook. If the willing third knows about the primary relationship, knows the engaged status of the pursuer, and fucks the pursuer anyway, I put some amount of CPOS responsibility on that person anyway. That the pursuing takes place in a public place, facebook, makes it all the worse.

Unless the public nature of the offer is meant to communicate that all is well with the fiance and that there's no implied monogamy, but I still think offers to fuck belong face to face in bars, not public media.
11
I had a perfect penis once. I've had a dozen or so others that were mostly very good, but only one that was perfect. I will always regret not making a casting of it...
12
Dan didn't really answer the question "Can you pray the gay away?", but he probably figured it's so ridiculous his only course was to give an aggressively glib response. I hope he didn't consider this question to be an example of what he found to be a "smart" audience!
13
Dan's take on having multiple experiences before marriage is spot-on. Everyone I know who married their first girl/boyfriend is now either miserable or divorced.
14
Letter 3-- Well, are you unsatisfied or not?

Opening, closing, and middling with compliments is going to solve part of your problem that involves not criticizing him, solve the part about not giving him the impression that you're unsatisfied, will feed his already inflated ego that doesn't care if you're satisfied or not, and do nothing for the unsatisfaction problem. That's fine if you're truly not unsatisfied, but I suspect that's not it.

I think the problem is that you've already got a groundwork established that his satisfaction matters and yours doesn't. And he's achieved this with the most insidious tactic of all. He's played all "I'm such great guy I'm sensitive and insecure. Anything you say to me will break me and ruin me forever."

Of course I hope I'm wrong and that you don't want to give the impression you're unsatisfied because you're really not. In which case, what are you asking? Maybe that you're satisfied with OTHER aspects of the relationship and therefore don't want to break up over this one? Then see the paragraph above. The guy is being a jerk, maybe such a young jerk that he doesn't know he's being a jerk, but he's still being a jerk.

No, no, you cry. He's really sensitive, insecure, caring, and terrific. Okay, here's what you do. You open the conversation with how much you want the relationship to work. You throw out the business about not wanting to seem like you're criticizing him, and you criticize him. You're direct about how you feel which is unsatisfied. You tell him what he could do to change that. Then you wait for his response.
15
Dear Abby once said, if you marry a Man (or in this case a woman) who cheats on his/her spouse, you are marrying someone who cheats on his/her spouse. The problem isn't that the other person isn't ready to leave their spouse, the problem is that you the single person don't feel you deserve something full and real. And, at first at least, you love the sneaking around. Then it gets old and you wait for them to "come to THEIR Senses" when what needs happening is that you come to YOURS.
16
Letter 6 on open relationships-- I'm with Dan as far as it goes, but I worry about the scenario he didn't address. That's the one where the relationship is on the rocks and one party or the other suggests opening it up as a means to save it. It's the modern equivalent of "we can still be friends." It's making a painful process all the more painful by prolonging it. A clean break would be so much better.
17
@12 - Guessing you haven't been on that campus. This is were the rich and revolting don't let their kids out into the world.
18
I think penis perfection has more qualifications than size, shape and attached human. Like does it get hard often enough? And does it then stay hard long enough??
19
@16, It's a common saying in poly circles that "relationship broken, add more people" doesn't work well. But that wasn't the situation Dan was asked to address.

The LW is in a solid relationship, and worries about damaging it by opening up. Obviously, if neither person wants to open it up, then there's no reason to take that risk.

But at least one of them does want to open the relationship, and Dan was pointing out to the LW that refusing to open up may also hurt the relationship.
20
The old saw I recall is "when a man marries his mistress, it opens up a job vacancy." Change genders as appropriate.
21
Bill O'Reilly. Thanks for that Dan. Not.

You're definitely right about that one, only it wasn't Bill O'Reilly. It was attached to a complete asshat though.
23
@16/19 - I agree that opening a troubled relationship--like having another kid--and hoping it will save things is probably not generally a good idea. But with the caveat that if the relationship is otherwise ok, but troubled because it is sexually unfufilling or stagnent, it may actually be a reasonable thing to try before throwing in the towel. Its not going to magically fix everything, but it might fix that.
24
Ms Crinoline - Despite this being not my area of expertise, I'm going to guess that a woman who wants to criticize a man without appearing to criticize him isn't a satisfying performer either. What she may be is a good liar, which perhaps could be why Mr Savage suggested all those compliments. Going by bridge players, I'll guess that the male equivalent to this sort of annoying is the man who wants to criticize a woman sharply without breaking up.

This question reminds me of Tickets to the Devil when the Dukes and the Ashcrofts are comparing scores at halftime in their knockout team match and not doing well. This is when they finally come to terms with being alpha-alpha and beta-beta pairings and swap partners, although at first just at the bridge table. What makes me think of this question and suspect that it's less his fault than the asker thinks is when Miggsy starts to tell Hank that she and Harvey would have defeated the opponents' contract of Four Hearts if Harvey hadn't done something awful after her brilliant switch to the jack of diamonds only to realize after writing down the cards that it was her leading the jack of diamonds that had let the opponents make their contract.
25
I am going to ding Mr Savage for the Married Woman's Partner's question - the asker said "spouse" and Mr Savage answered "man". I shall stake out the position that the spouse does not present as male. Now, if said spouse is off the binary, there may be others present better qualified to comment. If all three participants present as women, I've seen it happen and can't put the chance at zero. If the asker is male, he's in with a chance if he gets her pregnant - not that anyone here could ever advocate that sort of thing.

I suppose, even if the asker is a woman and the spouse is a man, there's always Ms Nelson, but one would have to be Ms Navratilova to bring it off.

It's interesting that the question was phrased to be about the odds - as if asker already has a threshold chance in mind that would make it worth the risk.
26
There is only one reason to "have a conversation with a man about his sexual performance," and it is because you are unsatisfied, unless by "conversation," the questioner meant "Oh Rolf, you are the best lover I've ever had! I love the way you love me, baby. Mmmm, mmmm: you're so good!"

And there is no reason to worry that you're going to hurt his feelings unless you care about continuing some sort of sexual relationship with him, in which case you need to be satisfied (or at least more satisfied) or the relationship will end.

So when you consider it like this, you see that although there is a risk that will irreparably hurt the guy's feelings and he'll never want to see you again if he feels like you're criticizing him or that you are unsatisfied, the very fact that you're undertaking this awkward and uncomfortable conversation is because you like him so much and want the relationship to continue and succeed, because if the issue goes unaddressed the relationship will surely not continue. Under those circumstances, the conversation takes on a characteristic of what have you got to lose which may be a way to work the nerve up to have it.

Thus, it is kind of crucial that you "giv[e] him the impression that you're unsatisfied," but you can do it in a way that doesn't "mak[e] him feel like you're criticizing him." Here's one way:

"Toby, you know what I really like? I really like it when someone ________ my _______ like _______. Just like (demonstrate or come up with a good description or analogy). That makes me so hot/I think that's so sexy." Or "You know what I've always wanted to try? ___. I think it would be really fun/feel really good." "Could you try ______? I really like that."

If he throws a fit or seems crushed, back off and give him some time to digest the unspoken message that his technique needs improvement. Either he'll refuse to try, or he'll start a fight and break up with you then and there (but that's highly, highly unlikely), or he'll want to please you. Then next time Toby tries--and if he doesn't try, that tells you something, too--you can give constructive feedback: let your body give big, enthusiastic, non-verbal feedback, explicitly say how much you like it ("yeah, just like that. That feels good") and continue the constructive critical feedback ("that feels so good, but try adding a little more ____." "Ooh; now could you try that a little to the left?"), being sure to add something like "that was the best sex we've ever had, baby. I know it's just going to get better and better" afterwards. That way you've acknowledged his effort and given him motivation to continue to try, even if he hasn't gotten it just right yet.

It's scary to give critical feedback to a sex partner if you have good reason to think that he or she will not take it well, and it's probably no one's idea of a good time to be told that your technique isn't cutting it. But if we are into our partners, we tend to want to please them, and most of us want to pick up new skills and add to our repertoire, so if you're not coming off as a super-critical, never-satisfied taskmaster, ordering someone around ("Not like that! Like This!" or "No, you idiot! I said this way!") it will or should pay off for both of you.

And remember, if it doesn't get better, you aren't going to stick around anyway, so what have you got to lose?
27
@12 - I took it as, "You can pray for anything and will always get the same result ... nothing that came from the prayers themselves."
28
Re: Mr. "Will the cheating wife I'm boning be faithful to me"

The answer to your question, Dan, is "Because he really, really, really wants it to be true."
30
Huh.

I read the letter from the person having the affair with the married woman differently. Rather than asking whether or not the currently-cheating wife is capable of fidelity, I thought the lw wanted to know if the woman s/he is having an affair with will ever leave her spouse for the lw. Perhaps the wife has been leading the piece on the side--I mean the lw on, promising to leave the marriage and the lw wonders whether that will ever happen (I have been in a relationship with a married woman for five years. What are the odds that she will leave her spouse to be in a committed relationship with me instead?)

I give that course of action the same odds Dan give the unasked fidelity/monogamy question.
31
"Can you pray the gay away?"
One's prayers might be answered, but the answer would be "No."
34
Yes 32, exactly.
35
Ms Cute - If that's really the way it is for opposite-sexers and you're not just having a Shawn Wallace moment and wearing your Grumpy Drawers, that is too bad. Really, though, women would never have the conversation until it's Make This Better Yesterday or WE'RE THROUGH? I'll take your word for it; my experience has been quite different in every respect; if there's been a flaw, it's most typically been request for feedback becoming far too specific or assuming far too much constancy of response.
36
Dan's answer to Q1: hell yeah!
37
Mr. Ven: I don't know how it is for all straights or even any straights (and, btw, you may want to check my non-presumption of heteronormativity in my sample instructions. The original letter specifies that it's a man in need of pointers or correction, but the letter doesn't mention what gender the person who needs to worry about correcting without appearing too critical is. I went with the assumption that the same technique could work no matter the orientation or the genders of both participants).

The lw seemed excessively concerned lest the person being schooled get offended or hurt, and I tried to give some practical advice. I didn't mean it to be taken as representative of every conversation I've ever had.
38
I was a cheating dog in my first marriage. I have been utterly faithful in my second. No I didn't marry the dude I cheated with. Maybe I beat the odds. I'd leave it as unlikely.
39
I love your last answer to the "perfect penis" question, Dan!
It really is subjective.

Grizwatch Update: I am now experiencing post-op trouble (i.e.: back and abdominal pain; UTI infection, etc.), and wishing I could just yank out my piece of shit uterus and chuck it into the garbage if the likelihood of fatal consequences wasn't so high. I may have to get that hysterectomy after all.
*Sigh*

WHEN the !@#$ING HELL will all this !@#$ing monthly agony finally !@#$ING STOP, ALREADY??
40
So sorry to hear of your post-op complications, auntie grizelda
41
38- DarkHorse-- True. I can think of one or two instances where the first marriage was awful, and while the preferred method would have been to end the marriage before dating to find the partner for the second, the order was reversed. Then the second marriage turned out to be solid and lasting over 30 years.

And 8-IPJ-- Thanks for looking up the information. I found it enlightening.
42
Dan, I am sure your sponsors would be happy to help anyone pick out the perfect penis for them, as well as the proper equipment to attach said penis to whomever they so wish.
43
24-Venn-- I agree with your guess that LW 3 is not herself a satisfying performer, and I'm going to chalk that up to their both being young. Here's the difference: If there's any similarity nowadays from the experience I'm drawing on which is now over 35 years old, her performance matters less to him that his performance does to her. There were jokes in those days about how for her, being good in bed was a matter of showing up.
45
@44 yeah, but the perfect hammer makes the pounding even better.
46
There are people who think butch lesbians are secretly trans men??
47
@39 Auntie G, sorry you're suffering. For the UTI stuff, I have something for you. D-Mannose and Uva Ursi will clear it right up. Here's a study if you care to research a bit... http://www.altmedrev.com/publications/13…
48
@40 EricaP, and @47 portland scribe: Thank you and bless you for your concerns. My gynecologist has prescribed me an even tougher, meaner antibiotic (the first one wasn't cutting it!), and the majority of my aches and pains have gone away---with a little help from my own supply of Maximum Strength Floodwatch Pamprin. So at least I can sleep.
@47 portland scribe: Thank you, too, for helpful info about UTIs.

You'll be happy to know that I'm still feeling a little woozy, but better.
This latest antibiotic seems to be working pretty well, although I don't think I should return to driving again just yet.
49
Auntie Grizelda: I'm sorry to hear you've had a tough time, and I'm hopeful that this new antibiotic will help you feel better.
50
Ms Crinoline - I suppose I can always add this to the Holmes-Sun-Earth file along with other things where, if I recall a recent post of Ms Cute's correctly, women want equal standards - except when they don't (entirely understandable in the case of life boats).

Ms Grizelda - Good luck feeling better soon. I have been ill as well - and sadly, not from the same complaint as Dr Grant when he fancied the pheasant tough, sent away his plate, and suffered for the rest of the evening. I have a daylong event tomorrow for which I have to be on, and, even if I get any sleep tonight (doubtful), the voice will probably be gone.
51
Re LW2: There's always the third option: Fuck him and then post it on social media.
52
to #6 you should never compare Bill O Reily to man's best asset
53
My man usually has the perfect penis but it varies from day to day. Sometimes it's too big or too small - sometimes I am. Remember, one person's boner size varies and so does tightness. Find a man who is considerate and accommodating.
54
Auntie Grizelda- might I suggest yoga? You could talk to your instructor about poses you could practice for relieving cramps. Right now yoga is just about the only thing that makes me feel better. It takes some time and regular practice, but it really does help. Plus it's great for stress relief.
55
Fantastic reply to LW1. You hit it out of the park with the bases loaded on that one, Dan.
56
@54 yoga enthusiast: Thanks for the suggestion! I do have the yoga pants and am now in much better shape for it.
57
@50 vennominon: I'm sorry you haven't been feeling well, either!
I guess we've both been experiencing a little March madness?
I'm happy to say that while I'm still skipping booze and not yet
back to driving--as a health / safety precaution (still taking the
antibiotics / painkillers), I am feeling considerably better otherwise.
58
I KNEW I'd missed commenting on another fine answer in this column (thank you, Robin8)! I agree with Robin8 @55 on your response to LW1, Dan.
Kudos on another Grand Salami!
59
@portland scribe

You stop that.

Did you even read that paper? Right at the beginning it says "Botanicals that can be effective at the first sign of an infection and for short-term prophylaxis include berberine and uva ursi."

First sign of infection - not when someone has a full blown UTI which has already shown resistance to the first antibiotic.

Could people chill out on giving potentially dangerous online medical advice? That would be fantastic.
60
Another thought on LW3 that may come across as kinder than my earlier ones in 14. I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner having suffered from this particular misconception in my younger days too. That's the one where the unsatisfaction comes from starry eyed notions of the beauty and mystery and wonderfulness of sex once you finally have the chance to do it with someone you love. The problem isn't with his performance which is why you think it best not to open the conversation with criticism. The problem is with the soul crushing disappointment that something that's been talked up as much has sex has could be such a fizzle when the big event is upon you. (Pun totally intended.) You want to talk about it, but you hardly know where to start, and somewhere deep down, you feel like he's so close to you he ought to know.

All of that dodges your excellent question. How do you have that conversation about his sexual performance? You are very specific in your own mind about exactly what it is about his performance that's unsatisfying, and you make sure it is within his power to change; you make sure you're not asking the impossible. Then you get him in a private moment and go down the list.
62
Attached to Bill O'Reilly. Between and above the shoulders.
63
@40 nocutename: Thanks so much for your kind support! I'm still on antibiotics; painkillers happily not as much (only when needed). I hope
to return to the safely drive again soon. To be safe, I'm still avoiding direct sunlight and booze for now.
@59 mydriasis: Thank you, too, for sharing important good-to-know information about UTIs, and how to safely combat them. I'm fortunate then to be sticking to the prescribed meds by my gynecologist--the latest, greatest antibiotic seems to be effectively working! Yay!!
64
re @63: Hoo boy. Like I said, I'm still on antibiotics & occasional painkillers for a few more days!

@40 nocutename: What I meant to type in my response @63 was:
..." I hope to safely drive again soon."

*sigh* At least my head isn't revolving in a total 360 degree spin, nor am I levitating and projectile vomiting green bile.
We'll see what happens during my next upcoming cycle!
65
@61: The difference is that your partner presumably knows s/he's putting on weight, whereas, s/he may have no idea that what is happening in bed isn't driving you wild with delight.
Perhaps the same tact needs to be used, but the need for the message is really different.
67
@auntie

I'm glad it's working out for you! :)
68
Auntie Griz and Mr. Ven: I wish you both a speedy recovery and relief from any and all pain/discomfort that you're feeling. Sending you good vibes and warm thoughts.
69
The perfect penis has to be in pink color.
Cut and 4 to 5 " long. Yes, I am a woman , the only people I know that likes big penis is gay man.
70
After reading some of of your answers: you think that people who don't have your opinion are sh.... Booooo!
71
@Maggie, really? I will give you my ex husband's phone number.
72
@67 mydriasis: Thank you so much! Cross your fingers that from this day forward, my menstrual periods are light and reasonably pain-free!
Oh, to be able to wear shorts of any light color again, without suffering any humiliating consequences!

@68 lolorhone: Thank you and bless you, too! I appreciate and can certainly use warm thoughts and good vibes. So far, so good. It will be nice to be able to safely drive again, and be done with antibiotics. I have to admit, these tougher, meaner little dudes really do the job.
73
My idea of a perfect penis......is one that is patient, well-lubed, and playful.
74
@auntie grizelda and vennominon : I hope you both get better soon !

As for the conversation between a woman and her unsatisfying lover, I can see another case when feedback about performance should be given but not in a crushing way : that of an eager to learn younger lover (say, 25) with an older woman (say, 40). The campsite rule dictates there should be some work from the older lover towards diplomatically helping the younger one improve his technique, when he asks about it.

As for the perfect penises, why pink only ? I like to see some blueish/purple hue on the glans, though I couldn't care less for the color of the shaft. Of course, the ability to stay hard despite a condom is a prerequisite for any enjoyable penis.
75
As for cut penises, let me express my European grief to all American penises which were maimed and in some cases destroyed in infancy, through the idiocy of the parents/doctors/nurses of the sexually mutilated newborns.

Cutting one's penis is a body modification, a serious decision, one that only an adult can willingly take for himself. Stop forcing circumcision on minors.
79
@sissoucat

Um, parents make all kinds of large healthcare decisions for minors. In fact, you might be surprised to learn that they make virtually every single decision for infants.

You can be against circumcision if you want but suggesting that all serious medical procedures be put off until adulthood is pretty absurd.

There's pros and cons to each side of the decision. Most people are sexually active before they're "adults" and if the boy lives somewhere where circumcision is the norm he could face a lot of disgust/shaming/etc when he starts having sexual experiences. Also, he'll be at a higher risk of contracting HIV.

When I was sixteen I got my tongue pierced. It hurt like a bitch. I probably would not willingly do it again but I love the piercing now that I have it. A lot of grown men are probably hesitant to have part of their genitals cut off but may wish it had been done when they are too young to remember the pain (plus also faster healing time).

And last but not least: way to be kiiind of antisemitic.
80
@74 sissoucat: Thank you so much for your kind words of moral support. The sun came out today on April 1st, and the love of my life and I ventured out for a picnic! Wonderful to return to driving again, after two weeks of recuperation.

Cross your fingers, everybody, that my next menstrual cycle is simply a nice, light, reasonably painless, normal.......menstrual cycle. I will soon find out! :)
82
@79 A serious medical procedure, circumcision is not. It's a plain and simple genital mutilation.

And as for all genital mutilations, serious authorities find a new benefit for it everytime the old one gets discredited. Remember, in the early 1900s circumcision was heralded by doctors, yes doctors, as a surefire way to curb masturbation in young males. Oh, yeah, less skin on your bare penis, less hiv transmission. But still a lot more than with an intact penis protected with a condom. At that rate, let's entirely cut the penis : no hiv transmission at all !

As for antisemitism, that's so easy and so predictible. Muslim boys are circumcized too, and a lot more numerous than Jewish boys, why not accuse me of rampant anti-islamism instead ?

I have the greatest respect for people who go against the traditions of their religion and decide not to circumcize their boys, they really are courageous and very moral people. If one's religion orders are to destroy forever a part of the body of your child, it takes tremendous courage to say "that is an outdated belief, it's immoral, we need to stop doing it".

The Jewish people did stop practicing all forms of slavery and forced polygyny, though it's right there in the Torah, so I have every confidence they will some day stop circumcising minors.
83
@sissou

"Muslim boys are circumcized too, and a lot more numerous than Jewish boys, why not accuse me of rampant anti-islamism instead ?"

I don't see why it can't be both.

Also, I notice that you didn't comment on the possibility that an uncircumcised man is at a significant sexual disadvantage...
84
@79: "You can be against circumcision if you want but suggesting that all serious medical procedures be put off until adulthood is pretty absurd."

Good lord, a person would be hard pressed to out-do THAT false equivalency. Wanna try again?

"You can be against circumcision if you want but suggesting that all serious VOLUNTARY, NON-MEDICALLY NECESSARY, BODY ALTERING medical procedures be put off until adulthood is pretty absurd."

There, fixed that for you.

If a piercer had a baby and opted to have the baby's tongue split because it's cool and so he would look just like Daddy, you'd be calling CPS.
85
Myd: Just as a little thought experiment, go find yourself a 3x5 index card. (No, really, try this...) Fold it in half the long way. Now curl the folded piece into a tube, the short way. There's a rough analogy to your average adult foreskin. 15 square inches of highly innervated genital tissue.

Now, unfold it and just look at it for a minute or so. Seriously, give yourself time to really get familiar with what you are holding. A 3 x 5 card. Five inches long by three inches wide. That's a pretty fucking big strip of skin, wouldn't you say? What section of the skin of YOUR genitals -- totalling that many square inches -- would you be willing to have cut off?

Be honest, now.
86
#83 myd: "Also, I notice that you didn't comment on the possibility that an uncircumcised man is at a significant sexual disadvantage" (in reference to: "if the boy lives somewhere where circumcision is the norm he could face a lot of disgust/shaming/etc when he starts having sexual experiences.")

So you are saying that it is right and proper for one sex to have their bodies forcibly conformed to the expectations of the opposite sex? I'll alert Gloria Steinem. She can retire from the battle, the whole female bodily autonomy movement is wrongheaded according to mydriasis. We can have the entire female population get in line for boob jobs and vadge tucks to please their menz. Wouldn't want them to have to face a lot of disgust/shaming. Let's not accomplish with social education what can be done more efficiently with a scalpel.

Honestly, were you drinking before you started replying to sissou?
87
"And last but not least: way to be kiiind of antisemitic."

No, more like "a stupid idea doesn't magically become un-stupid simply because it is endorsed by generations of religious masses. I'm pretty sure those practicing female genital mutilation in Ghana, and bride burnings and honor killings of rape victims in India, think God is on their side, too.

Yep. I'm going with drinking as the explanation.
88
@83 "disadvantage".... I don't think so! Try it some time, you might like it.

Speaking of closed minded and culturally biased.
89
@Cynara and avast2006 : thanks, buddies. Maybe the world is indeed changing for the better already...

@mydriasis : Having the the inside of the foreskin licked, especially around the frenulum, is a most pleasurable experience for many of the males I've had sex with. I don't see as a sexual disavantadge the fact to keep into adulthoods a skin with such exquisite sensibility. But adults should be allowed to cut their own if they want, sure.

Peace.
90
If my labia were the size of cuecards I'd find the idea of surgically resizing them horrifying. But if I knew that I could have had it done at birth I'd wish it had been.

I'm not even arguing everyone SHOULD do it, but this whole 'OMG IT'S SO AWFUL DON'T YOU SEE' rhetoric is quite clearly not something everyone can relate to - even when you try to make it about their own bits.

@cynara

I have a good amount of experience with both. I obviously have a preference.
91
@90: my partner is at a huge sexual disadvantage through having been circumcised for religious reasons. I wish to goodness we could go back in time and persuade his parents they were mutilating their son, and so does he.
93
@myd
Putting aside the different cultural associations with foreskin and big labia... I get that if a baby has seriously crazy 'cue-card' foreskin/labia that would interfere with their daily life then the parents might want to intervene early on. But if it's just regular foreskin or biggish labia then it seems strange to me that they'd get them cut to preempt potential sexual rejection. If you're an adult and you wish your parents had elected to have these procedures done for you at birth then that seems a little look at your life, look at your choices to me. Like it'd be easier to not fuck people who are revolted by slightly nonstandard parts (I don't mean people with a flexible preference, I mean people who are like EW OMG THIS SCIFI LOOKING SHIT - and there are loads of those). Not sure if this is what you meant by "sexual disadvantage" though, I may be way off. But I agree that none of this is really cause for massive weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Also I think the labia scenario is very individual. Personally I'm more weirded out by the idea of my mom fussing over my genital appearance at birth than the idea of choosing to get it done as an adult.
94
Avast - @84 you rip Mydriasis for false equivalency (WITH CAPS!!!)for daring to compare circumcision to the other routine medical decisions parents make for their children. Then @86 you draw false equivalency with other religious practices such as honor rapes and bride killings.

Mydriasis - one day you will realize debating circumcision is like debating the merits of vaccines. Separating scientific literature and consensus from raw emotions is impossible.
95
I have been interested in the way marriage and age work together. Everyone I have ever known who married "early" (it is a relative term) are now divorced. I do not know why, some were jerks and of course it would happen; others were seemingly perfect for each other, but they obviously weren't. All of them were certain of the decision to marry. I think as we get older and have more time with environments were we don't have any baggage but that which we bring ourselves people find that they like or desire completely different things than those they were told to value (duh) and that after two or three years of growing young couples find that there is a lot they didn't know about themselves and in turn their spouse. There are also a high number of people I know that married young whose only excuse was that she was pregnant... maybe this has something to do with the young marriage issue?
96
Male circumcision unfortunately will probably be around for sometime yet. Still parental decisions should be based on more than our own preferences since children grow up to be adults with strong opinions of their own.

BTW, It's Alec Guinness's birthday! Hurrah!
97
@95 Who knows? I've seen and heard the best and worst examples of marriage within my family and they've all married young in today's terms with varying success. In fact I'm so old in comparison to the very vast majority of my family's romantic history that they still think I'm gay and I've been telling them I'm straight since I was eleven.
98
@Tim Horton

You're completely right.
99
92

Make it a little more obvious that you skip everyone else's posts and only read mine.
101
@90 myd: You still aren't getting it.

Which fifteen square inches of your adult genital skin would you be willing to forgo? Your labia, perhaps? You don't think that would qualify as Female Genital Mutilation? You don't think missing that much of your genitalia today would constitute a compromise of your sexual response, just because it had happened while you were young, they were taken before they had grown, and you grew up not knowing any better?

Your grasp of geometry is not so hot either. Your so-called "labia the size of cue-cards" -- clearly you are trying to paint a picture of ridiculous beef curtains that hang down to mid-thigh -- would have a surface area requiring four cue cards to approximate. they have two sides, you know. Try cutting a single cue card in half the long way, and then fold each of those in half also long-ways, to simulate the inside and outside surfaces. Not nearly so ridiculously out-sized an approximation of (typical) labia as your attempt at rebuttal would have us think.

Now, would you be willing to forgo that much of your genital region?
102
@92: Cue cards. Snerk. Laughing in spite of myself now...

(Myd, "cue cards" are not "index cards." Look it up.)
103
I would be saying the same thing if we were talking about, say, removing the bottom half-inch of a child's earlobe. Completely unnecessary, permanent alteration of another human's bodily integrity. If a culture wants to embrace that aesthetic in its adult population, I say each and every adult should feel free. But they have no more right to snip their children's earlobes off than they would have the right to snip the earlobes of their adult neighbor. Or their neighbor's children. This idea that because I have responsibility for the physical care and medical well-being of my child, that somehow extends to non-medical, physical alterations of their form, is another case where a reasonable idea has been overextended and twisted beyond recognition.

What would you say about someone tattooing their baby's belly with a full color repro of their favorite musical album cover? Or installing a line of (sterile, hypoallergenic, stainless steel) shoelace grommets and lacing their front tight like a corset? What is magical about penis skin that makes it fair game?
104
@avast

Hahaha, you know what I was picturing an index card, but for some reason I'd always referred to them as cue cards - never been corrected.

I considered mentioning earlobes but I thought labia was a more appropriate analogy so I used it.

Neuroplasticity is not the same in an adult as it is in a child. You don't feel sexual pleasure in your penis, you feel it in your sensory cortex (and other parts of your brain). So saying 'well why not leave off the decision to adulthood' ... it doesn't quite work that way.

Anyway so if we're using earlobes, let's pretend I lived in a culture where earlobes were considered undesirable. Would I want to cut mine off now? Nope. Would I wish they had been cut off as a baby. Heck yes.

As a side note, I notice that men who are anti-circumcision usually fall into one of two camps

1. Weird MRAs who want to front like they're oppressed

2. Uncircumcised men who dislike being reminded that they are less preferred

As to the tattoos and etc, you can't compare body modifications that confer no benefit to body modifications that confer a social and medical benefit - that's just crazy.

I'm not even exceedingly pro-circumcision either, I just take issue with all this over the top hand wringing people do about it. On a personal level my two feeling are this

1. In a sex partner I prefer circumcised by a wiiide margin.

2. If I ever had a son I'd leave it up to the dad. There's no clear right answer in my opinion.
105
I don't think non-Jews/Muslims should feel they need to circumcise their children *just* because they might get teased for it. I didn't even realize until college that it was common for gentiles to be circumcised. But it's extremely culturally insensitive and ignorant to ignore the religious significance of circumcision. Male circumcision in Judaism goes way, way back from the time of G-d's covenant with Abraham. Jews have historically been persecuted using the distinction. Being circumcised connects a boy to his ancestors and heals *way* faster than when you're an adult. They even talk about that in the Bible as a distinction.

Also, cutting off the foreskin really isn't the same as cutting off the clitoris or sewing the vagina shut. It still functions perfectly well and men can still have great sex lives. I don't really care about circumcision as a sexual preference thing, but it is a *very* significant tradition in Judaism and arguing against its ritual use is a common form of antisemitism.
106
Also, how the heck does talking about "perfect penises" turn into an anti-circumcision rant?
107
Anyone who prefers a cut penis has clearly not enjoyed the sexual benefits of the intact penis and the way it helps with stimulation. See http://www.sexasnatureintendedit.com/ and the sexual advantages of foreskin to the female. The only reason you think mutilated penises look nicer is because that's what you're used to, given that this generation of American men have been altered for the most part. That still does NOT make it right to continue on to the next generation.

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