Savage Love

Old Times

Comments

1
Interesting tactic: Invite a guest expert in, constantly interrupt her and tell her she's doing it wrong.

But I have to say that I find letter #1 inspiring. It is nice to think that you're never too old, or in the words of George Eliot--but not really, since she apparently never said this, refrigerator magnets to the contrary: "it's never too late to be what you might have been." Maybe it's never too late to do what you always wanted to.
2
She *doesn't* want the baby, Dan. Why would you want her to inform someone who may or may not be the daddy of a child she ? None of them "signed" on for a baby, and this is one of the reasons abortions exist. This has nothing to do with the possible father, mommy and hubby didn't sigh on for this and don't want it. You see "alright" with the guilt trip and a child its own mother does not want. Good fucking grief, Dan.
3
Ms Cute - One should always be courteous to guests, but also heed the advice of Gertrude Stein: Never permit the effluvium of gracious serendipity to overwhelm the needs of the Dionysian soul. It is often in the purview of the host to barter the necessary for the fortuitous.

As for Ms OBA #1- The LGBT community is an open and welcoming place no matter what age or relativity status--one might say that a "cousin" can be "cuisine" in the right gastronomical position when eating out!
4
Mr. Ven: Saucy!

5
"For the love of all things holey..." Nyuk, nyuk, nyukl!
6
I don't think you read very carefully, Arthur. Dan made a point that she should follow thru with her terms to terminate the pregnancy regardless. His point in informing the potential bio-dad is that many men benefit from women's reproductive freedom without even being aware of it.

As support for abortion rights in this country seem to be waning and access to safe and legal abortion services is under constant attack, Dan's theory is the more people who realize that the procedure has benefited them directly, the more would support access to abortion and proper reproductive healthcare and vote for politicians who support it as well. His theory is based on the same logic as Dan's advice to every gay/lesbian/bi/trans/queer person to be out to their friends and family if it is safe to do so, since visibility and direct experience with a person of different sexuality or gender expression increases support for LGBT rights across the board.

Unfortunately, I think in the case of abortion, the problem is more than just women being reluctant to disclose that they've had the procedure. It is also a lack of understanding about what abortion really is, and what pregnancy really entails for women's health. The media has a very skewed presentation of pregnancy as healthy and natural and abortion as complicated and dangerous. TV & Movie pregnancies are very rarely complicated (Lady Sybil's death of eclampsia was very rare in this regard) and abortions are three or four times more often complicated in media depictions than they are in real life.
7
To NAH, I would strongly suggest looking into Essure. From one woman who's "unwavering" in her lack of parental aspirations to another, it's been amazing—basically a tubal ligation without the invasive surgery aspect.

It's an outpatient procedure in which the doc goes in via the cervix and places a little coil (similar to the spring in a clicky pen) into each Fallopian tube. Scar tissue forms around the coils, and within 3 months, ~90% of women experience complete blockage of the Fallopian tubes, so eggs can't get from the ovaries to the uterus to be fertilized. (For the other 10%, it takes another month or so for complete blockage to be achieved.)

My procedure took 10 minutes, was completely covered by insurance (thanks, Obama) and I had less cramping than with a normal period. No more taking pills or using patches/rings/whatever, just peace of mind. Check it out.
8
@2 What? I think Dan explained his reasoning pretty clearly, just like how gays and lesbians coming out of the closet has helped people come to realize they are people who should be treated equally he wants her to come out of the abortion closet. So that he can see an example where he will see the importance of the access to the procedure.
9
Ms Cute - I would thank you not to interact with the troll. As whoever is doing it (it's not well enough done to be Ms Erica or Mr Ank under a pseudonym) apparently intends to attempt to run me out of here, and is getting worse instead of better, I think we need a system. Perhaps I might ask people who have taken me seriously to use my double N (the troll uses a double M), so that at least I shall be able to follow who is addressing me and who isn't; otherwise we shall have chaos.
10
Oh dear, Mr. Ven. I never would have thought that someone was trying to impersonate you. I admit that it didn't seem like your usual point of view, which is why I responded the way I did.
11
Vennominon, if you click the "report this" link on the bottom right and tell the admin that this person is impersonating you, I'm sure they'll promptly remove the post.

And if you click the troll's name to bring up their page, and then click "report this user" the admin will probably delete their account if you explain that he/she is impersonating you.

I'm not a fan of your incomprehensible style and arcane references, but impersonation isn't cool.
12
Ms Kes - I am in definite agreement with you about media depictions of pregnancy and abortion. The most complicated television case I can think of is Jane Seymour's, which was played up rather than down with the invention of Henry's almost having to choose whether to save mother or child, but, of course, given the need to stick to some semblance of historical accuracy, the writers' hands were at least somewhat forced.
13
Mr Gilliam - Well, that is very fair of you to mention the process. I thought that such a process might exist, but, given the popularity of "ragu" or "raqu" or whoever puts up those posts that are at least half passable impersonations of "raku", I rather thought that it wouldn't get anywhere, and if anything would only induce people to show public support for the impostor.

If I were being well imitated, I shouldn't mind, but the posts past the first one or two seem clearly intended with malice to do damage.
14
i found it impossible not to fill in elderly attendees of my own family reunion to serve as my inner visuals for pussy-eatin' Old But Alive and pussy eatee cousin. Which is a place my mind has never traveled. So, yeah.

realizing weekly just how fucking uptight i am,
jill
http://www.inbedwithmarriedwomen.com
15
But that's one of my fantasies.. Maybe it's a seniors sex thing.
16
Mr Ven - No serious harm meant. Ok, joke's over now, it's run its course, I'll stop.
17
Ms Cute again - While I can certainly see your point, I don't think I'd have had the stomach even to let that bit of advice run. The guest's advice to hang out in lesbian bars is worse than the fifth set Gael Monfils played (and lost in perhaps twenty minutes) against Andy Murray about three weeks ago.

If you follow Slate at all, you might be familiar with their relatively new Ask a Homo series of videos. June Thomas got the series off to a controversial start by telling someone asking about the protocol for straight visitors to L or G bars when she replied, with an exception for events held in a bar, that it was better just not to go, especially to lesbian bars, of which there were about six exclusively such (or some very small number) in New York. She sort of walked that back a little a week later, but Mr Savage's assessment certainly matches quite neatly the majority of what I've been told by lesbian friends who were fond of their safe space bars, and is certainly more up to date.

I ought to go on, but it's past 1:00 am here and I am falling asleep as I type. Sorry if this is incoherent.
18
#16 - Thank you.
19
Dan, thanks for inviting me to advise the lust-crazed cousins. I wonder why you shift to "opposite-sex couples prowling" in lesbian bars when these are two *women*, though.

I love Ms Cute's comment: "one might say that a 'cousin' can be 'cuisine'"!

-- Joan Price
http://www.joanprice.com
20
I apologize -- that comment about cousin/cousine was venomminon's, not Ms Cute's.
21
Sorry, let me re-do that comment I posted earlier with errors:

Dan, thanks for inviting me to advise the lust-crazed cousins. I wonder why you shift to "opposite-sex couples prowling" in lesbian bars when these are two *women*, though.

I love venomminon's comment: "one might say that a 'cousin' can be 'cuisine'"!
22
Ah dear- there you go interlocker.. So , this is two female cousins?
Seriously confused now.. And either/ or, don't know if I agree with you Dan,
Why would they hire someone older?
23
I have to agree with Arthur. And I'll point out that Dan is assuming the other dude would agree with NAH's decision when he might not. What happens if the freaks out and starts harassing/stalking her for 'taking away his chance at fatherhood' or other clap-trap?

While I agree that there are probably lots of guys who have benefited from abortion there's a reason a lot of women don't want to talk about it.
24
LW#2, do not inform the other couple. It's just cruel. You're happily childless and good for you, but you don't know what secret hopes and desires they have regarding children. The thought that a biological child of one of them is getting aborted could affect them emotionally in ways none of you expect. They don't need your drama and -- in the unlikely chance they are crazy/desperate enough to try and convince you to carry "their" child -- you certainly don't need theirs.
26
@21: How do you know OBA is a woman?
27
@1 nocutename: I love your George Eliot metaphor about it never being too late have what you might have. So true!

Thank you, Dan, guest Joan Price, and commenters, for an entertaining column and thread this week!
28
It's never too late for a lemon party
29
Joan Price @26: I don't think OBA's cousin would have bothered to specify "lesbian experience" (with the intention of having OBA watch and then join in) if OBA was a woman. That said, has OBA asked the newly divorced/liberated cousin if she had someone- or a type of someone- in mind? It's wonderful that OBA is being proactive (goddamn it, I hate that word BTW), but it makes much more sense for both of them to do the seeking; not only will they be able to draw from a deeper pool of potentials, they can also align their tastes and preferences before they pick their unicorn (escorts included).
30
LW2: Do have the abortion. Do tell your playmate and his wife about it... after the fact.

This fulfills the requirements of courtesy (letting him know he may have impregnated you) but doesn't give him a vote in a decision which is not his to make.

If playmate and wife are in agreement with your and your husband's decision, you know you can keep playing with them safely. If he and/or his wife freak out, or reveal themselves as anti-choice nutters, then you'll know you're well rid of them, and you'll have protected yourself from potential harassment/pressure/lecturing.
31
I disagree #30.

Having been in a similar situation, my wife pregnant by a playmate (though he was otherwise single, and we have a child). I think she should tell them about the pregnancy prior to the abortion. They can't do anything to stop her, but could lend some emotional support for what can be a very traumatic experience (depending on the laws in the state where you live).

My wife's playmate was still able to regard abortion rights as some sort of abstraction that didn't affect his life in anyway. He was dumb.
32
Whether she should tell the other guy before having the abortion depends entirely on information not present in the letter: What is the character of the other guy?

There could be significant personal consequences should the other guy be a Republican, religious nut, or have some other type of freak-out.

(Note: Don't fuck republicans or religions nuts.)

For all the swingers out there, a little preemptive work may be in order: Declare in advance that in the event of pregnancy you will abort without notification to any non-marital partners.
33
I agree #30.

@ #31 - what if your wife's playmate was secretly an anti-abortion wackjob? He could have made her life miserable. You say he was "dumb" but this was probably better than if he had been harassing/threatening her to keep the fetus.

Have the abortion, tell the other couple about it after.
34
When I read the letter, I assumed the letter writer was female. I read it as a 70-year-old woman who had lusted after her female cousin for 50 years, now wanted to explore this with a particular scenario, guided by a more experienced woman. It never occurred to me that the letter writer might be male. Had I realized that, *I never would have sent them to a lesbian bar*!

Now I see that interpreting this as a letter from a woman was an assumption on my part. I admit with embarrassment that my first response to Dan's "interruptions" that he was, for some reason, assuming the wrong gender, and I said so.

But Dan has the original email, along with the identity of the letter writer. So he clearly knew the letter writer was male. I did not. Oh dear.

35
I second asjuha. If you choose to abort (and you have the right to do so), don't tell the man you think (but without a paternity test, you can't prove) is the father. Many people feel that life begins at conception, and this is not unreasonable. Unless you've left out some very relevant information, you don't know his feelings on abortion/when life begins (and one can be in favor of maintaining a woman's legal right to an abortion while still believing that to have one kills a baby. One can also be devastated by a specific abortion while still believing that the woman in question had every right to her decision- a bad reaction does not necessarily make "an anti-choice nutter"), or his feelings on becoming a parent. Maybe, in his opinion, you're doing him a favor. Maybe, in his opinion, you're killing his child. This is a case of keeping your mouth shut in order to spare someone's feelings, which may run very deep indeed. This is in line with why-reveal-the-affair-that-happened-one-time-and-will-never-happen-again-when-it-will-just-cause-needless-pain. (Please see the advice above about making yourself more pregnancy proof- pill, tubal, whatevs- if you accept play partners who are still virile.)
Also, let us all add this to the list of things to explicitly talk about before accepting play partners where there is any chance of conception.
36
I'm trying to see Dan's point that too many men don't realize that they've benefited from a woman's right to choose an abortion, but I fear that too many men won't realize it even if they know that a fetus they've fathered has been aborted. I could imagine those men becoming all sentimental about the child they'd have liked to have while still not acknowledging the realities of pregnancy, childbirth, child care, and child support since they still haven't done it.
37
I'm surprised that Dan would site legality to bolster the idea that there's nothing wrong with cousin-sex. Since when is legality a benchmark for such things? Need I remind him of the illegality of gay sex for many centuries and in many places around the world?

As for danger, there's nothing dangerous about 70 year old brother-sister sex either, or, for that matter, sibling sex with enough birth control or access to abortion. This isn't about the greater chance of deleterious recessives showing up in the phenotype. This is entirely about the squick factor, and as we all know about squick, it's entirely in the eye (mouth?) of the beholder. I find OBA's letter deeply squicky, but that's me.
38
Geezer - It read better from an elderly gay woman. If this ole dude hasn't gotten into his cousin's pants yet, I doubt that the first time will be in a threeway.

Swingers - It's not swinger etiquette, it's human etiquette. If you think that they're decent people, just tell them. Hopefully they talked about the possibility when they started swinging. If you think that they might react in anger or hatred and controlling bs, then it makes sense to keep your mouth shut and look for better people to play with.
39
So how much commission did Joan Price earn for this week's column?
40
@36
'I could imagine those men becoming all sentimental about the child they'd have liked to have while still not acknowledging the realities of pregnancy, childbirth, child care, and child support since they still haven't done it.'

They need to get some *empathy*; Walk a mile in someone else's shoes.
41
At the moment, feminists have sold me on abortion on the grounds that it benefits women immensely while the benefits/negatives to me are negligible in comparison. Why would you want to change that winning strategy and make abortion about whether it benefits *me*? Because, you know, whether I think that abortion benefits me or not is MY decision, and if I decide, that, on balance, it's a net negative to me, that's my judgement to make. (And not judging that the way that you want me to doesn't make me stupid or ignorant.)
42
Despite the fact that most American women will get an abortion at least once in their lives, most people don't think about abortion access or reproductive rights until they need one, and come up against the unbelievably onerous restrictions some states are throwing in their way.

Even tho it is a vital healthcare service that nearly every woman needs, for most people it is a rare, one-off, and often extremely emotional event. And the women who get the most squeezed by TRAP laws and anti-abortion activists are usually the most disenfranchised and least politically influential (women of color, poor women, teenagers.) So building a broader cultural awareness of the need for access and support for that access is key in combating the onslaught of anti-abortion laws we've seen in the past five years. And to build that coalition, you need a broader group than just women who have tried to seek an abortion recently and ardent feminists.

In regards to the "benefits" of abortion, that to me is secondary to building an larger understanding the abortion is NECESSARY in many cases. Some pregnancies will simply never be safe and never come to term, ectopic pregnancies being the simplest example. All sorts of events can occur during a pregnancy that can only be treated with abortion; partial miscarriage, placental abruption, and other events that threaten the life of the mother, as well as numerous birth defects and gestational problems. Eroding at-will abortion rights also erodes access for women who will die without that treatment. When I hear someone talking about how abortion should be outlawed, or even restricted to prior to 20 weeks gestation, what I hear is, "If you ever have a complicated pregnancy, I'd prefer that you die." That's why I'm pro-choice. Men don't have to face that kind of reality.
43
As a hot and attractive senior woman who is very sexually active I need to comment on Dan calling the 70 year old writer 'Gramps'. It is condescending and a turn off.

BTW Fetlife and Ashley Madison (and singles bars) are FULL of hot and sexy seniors hooking up. Just because someone has lived a full and rich life doesn't mean it ends when they have a certain number of years under their belt. What age are you planning to give up sex, Dan? Don't you expect to be/hope to be hot and sexy in your senior years? How are you going to feel when someone calls YOU 'Gramps?)
44
@42: It is not the case that most American women will at some point get an abortion. Current estimates are about 1/3 of women.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induce…

It is also a service that's concentrated: almost half of abortions in the United States are to women who have already had one or more abortion: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/11/2…

Which is to say: a fairly small minority of women will at some point get more than one abortion. A slightly larger minority of women will at some point get one abortion. Most women never will.
45
@42. You claim "Most american women" and "nearly all women" will have an abortion. I was curious but the stats I found were 30% of American women. (Guttmacher Institute citing peer-reviewed med journals - below.) I am interested in this topic; could you please cite where you have obtained your info?

Henshaw SK, Unintended pregnancy in the United States, Family Planning Perspectives, 1998, 30(1):24–29 & 46.

Jones RK and Kavanaugh ML, Changes in abortion rates between 2000 and 2008 and lifetime incidence of abortion, Obstetrics & Gynecology, 2011, 117(6):1358-1366.
46
My first question to myself regarding the situation of the knocked-up swinger is: whose business is it? From what I know of people who swing, which is not very much, they've explicitly signed up for sex, not procreation.

The second question is, how strongly does the letter-writer feel she needs to share news of this unwanted development, and to what end?

There are no wrong answers, but in neither case do I feel that etiquette plays the dominant role in answering these questions.

One last question for the letter writer. If baby-making is something you definitely don't want to ever do, and if sex with men who haven't had vasectomies is something you do want to do, have you considered, you know, doing something about that, like maybe getting your tubes tied?
47
Geezer sex should be applauded by everyone who doesn't want to become celibate upon attaining geezerhood.

NHA should look into long term contraception. Condoms and pills can fail, but an IUD, patch, or injection is always operating.
48
I mis-remembered my stats; I was thinking of the majority of pregnancies (that is to say, more than half) that are unplanned, and confused it with the number of women who need some kind of reproductive health care (birth control, etc.) Apologies. I meant to go back to edit and double-check, but hit post instead. According to Guttmacher (the best source of this info aside from NIH), it is in fact more like 1/3 of all women who actually go through with induced medical abortion. Here's a whole big page o' stats: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induce…
49
@34 Yeah, I assumed they were women looking for a girly threesome, too. There are times when the LW's gender doesn't matter, but this is not one of those cases. Sometimes Dan could be better about communicating that when he condsenses his letters leaving out gender markers, especially when he outsources advice.
50
@7 Fukitol, thanks for the information! I also have a massive desire to remain childless, and have thought about doing the tubes-tying thing, but I didn't know that there was an easier option!
Sounds interesting.
51
morning re-thinking of my comment (@14). i am just happy that oba--be they male or female--is so turned on by anything that they can't barely think straight. that is a rare and incredible thing.

jill
52
I agree, there's NO need to tell the other couple about the abortion! Why tell them? It would only cause possible complications and problems in an otherwise trouble free arrangement, and possibly ruin a friendship. And like Dan said, you have the possibility of it not even being theirs.

Telling people about things like this is never the best option, if hurting others can be avoided, then avoid it. It's a little self-indulgent, and while it might let the teller feel a little better about things, it sure as hell doesn't help the person who finds out.

It's no different than telling your spouse you had a one night stand, it's pointless and self-indulgent, and damaging to all.
Everybody I know who ever did that has regretted it! I say this would be no different.

Hold your tongues! Don't share..

And yes, Dan, not all women want to share, we can have very good reasons not to. I agree that men need to know, so guys, go ahead and assume that at some point, you have indeed been the beneficiary of a woman's right to choose.
53
Thanks tantragal @43
So tired of hearing from the kids about that "Gramps" and "Grandma" stuff.

And when I think about people in their youth -- e.g. young couple living next door -- actually "doing it"...well...it's pretty upsetting to visualize. Not so much as creepy but just so unappealing.
54
@42 "Men don't have to face that kind of reality."

As a man who held his wife's hand (figuratively) through such procedures while trying to have planned and wanted kids, let me pause my visceral response long enough for you to consider amending your comments further.
55
@51: Right on. Most of us can only dream (literally) of having that magical level of horniness again. Even if the old geezer doesn't consummate his cousin fantasy, the incredible raging boners have to be far worth it alone.
56
I know you didn't mean any harm and I trust your correspondent didn't take offense, but to address someone you don't know as "Gramps" affords a certain flavor of ageism and condescension. Perhaps consider speaking to older people as you will wish to be spoken to when/if you reach that age?
57
Dan is right to say tell the other couple as they are active swingers and need to know the risks. I know some frequent M-F swingers who are both middle-aged and up, and even though most of the women are past peak fertility and have a low risk of conception, it's quite common for male partners in regular swingers to have gotten vasectomies in part to greatly reduce the chances of an accidental pregnancy while swinging.
58
@6 right! ++1!

In the USA there's a script that abortion is a psychologically difficult decision and will torment a woman and haunt her, or at least might. There's even fake research to show this, by respected researchers who've been proven to have faked / exaggerated the psychological impact due to an anti-abortion agenda.

TV and movies show emotional turmoil more than no big deal abortions. What people experience in life is shaped in part by social expectations, not absolute but a higher probability of experiencing unpleasantness because you expect it. The silence in the USA adds a layer of potential shame, which also creates more likelihood of turmoil. Feeds into the anti-abortionists agenda, you've gotta admire how cunningly they frame the issue and shape our mindset. Being in favor of access to abortion is the true pro-life position, because then every baby is wanted, and there was once a time when even the Catholics didn't think a fetus got its soul at conception. Pro-choice is also the only true religious freedom position, because religions differ about what they believe is a soul plus freedom from religion.
59
@myself @58 tl;dr:

Pro-choice should be renamed pro-life and pro-religious freedom.

Anti-abortion should be renamed anti-life and anti-religious freedom.
60
#33

So, what if he had been? He has no standing to do anything. And who wouldn't know that about someone they were fucking regularly?
61
@43 Oh, lighten up. If you get this bent out of shape over a word like that you must be the most boring stick in the mud of all time.
62
If you thought LW#1 was a woman, clearly you skipped the awesome Joe Newton cartoon.
63
@42 Kes
'In regards to the "benefits" of abortion, that to me is secondary to building an larger understanding the abortion is NECESSARY in many cases.'

Thank you for that. New York Magazine did an interesting article last year:

http://nymag.com/news/features/abortion-…
64
The bar I hang out in the most has the largest number of lesbian patrons of all of the LGBT bars in the city (as opposed to the strictly lesbian bars). It also tends to be the most ethnically diverse as well. It's the type of place where a straight couple wanting to have a 3-way (with either another woman or another man) would be pretty welcome. But I would advise against doing the same thing in a predominantly lesbian bar.
65
Whether it’s necessary or not, it’s my decision and I don’t have to justify it to anyone.

Sure, tell him about the pregnancy and abortion. That will bring it home to him that he is fertile and he might want to do something about that. Plus it gives you practice in saying it out loud and normalizing it, making it just that much safer for the rest of us.
66
@9 - Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...except when it's Raku, with whom one can never be sure whether the original is itself a form of absurdist parody, which makes the imitation so easy.
67
@Joan Price - I read OBA's letter as a coming from a man, and wondered at your advice. Then on a 2nd reading, I noticed the very poorly worded sentence, "...a "lesbian experience" with me watching and then joining." Especially in the online version, with the line break after "me" -- no wonder you misread it as "...a 'lesbian experience' with ME..."!

Poor editing, Dan!

@38 (Philophile) - it's entirely possible that OBA & his cousin have never gotten into each other's pants (yet) because one or both were MARRIED for most of those 50 years. If cousin wants the 3-way & they can find their unicorn, why not?

BTW, I plan to check out Joan's book -- as a sexy great-grandma who is frequently "naked at my age!"
68
Thank you, Dan, for making this snafu turn out perfectly fine. I blogged the back story on my blog at http://betterthanieverexpected.blogspot.… just to get it all unpacked, and I'm delighted that readers are enjoying it and we're all laughing about it now.

Love you, Dan, no hard feelings -- in fact, you took extraordinary measures to make it right, and you're awesome to do that.
69
@67.. That's the way to say it.. Sexy great- grandma..
Sure sounds like fun is going on in your life/ whereas
" Seniors Sex".. Yeah, wow, fun offered with those words..
70
Delta35 wrote: TV and movies show emotional turmoil more than no big deal abortions.

Good point. But, to be fair, that may be more about the needs of drama than subtle sociopolitical manipulation.
71
Ms Chandira @52 - If you specify opposite-sexer men in your final sentence, I'll agree with the conclusion in addition to thanking you for seeing how it could play out badly without one or both halves of the other couple being rabidly anti-choice.
***

It's a pity Mr Silver's simulator that does so well with US presidential elections can't be put to use in this case and others like it. What a useful tool it would be for Mr Savage - if we could trust him to be scrupulous.
72
OBA: Don't tell any prospective 3rds that the other girl she'll be banging is your cousin. That will scare most people away, escort or not.
73
albeit 40-- Well sure, everyone could benefit from empathy and seeing the other person's side. My question is whether learning that someone you've slept with has had an abortion helps to provide that empathy. I'd say that it doesn't, or that it doesn't necessarily. My take on whether one should tell or not is that it doesn't really matter.

I'd say that what does matter is an ability to see the big picture, and I don't know how to grant people that ability either. Too many people I know wander around with a strange relationship to laws in which they don't really understand how they operate.

Take the example of a young woman who sleeps with a guy, falls in love with him, likes him more than he likes her, and becomes pregnant. For the sake of argument, let's say there's no trickery involved, just basic young person's stupidity in that they ran out of condoms and thought it would be okay if they didn't use them just this once. Let's say that many of her friends married their boyfriends under such circumstances, but this guy tells her that he's not ready for marriage and encourages her either to have an abortion or to raise the kid as a single mother, that he'll reluctantly pay child support as the Law requires, but that he'd really rather she got an abortion. In that not-too-farfetched hypothetical, the young woman, whether or not she chooses an abortion, is likely to believe her life would have been better off if abortion were illegal. She's likely to believe that she'd be married to the love of her life who would have become the perfect father if only she'd been unable to get an abortion.
74
The second answer bugs me, but I can't figure out specifically why.
75
@67 In my experience when people search for a third together, they already have a nice sexual rapport. The other way I've noticed threesomes work is with 3 kinky strangers. I've never heard of going to bed with basically an old friend for the first time with a third. It doesn't seem like it would have the right element to let go and have fun, like a stranger or trusted lover. Also I don't understand why they're not sleeping together yet, now that she's divorced and having the time of her life. That's my reasoning. And my opinion was vague because who knows? There's not a whole lot to go on in this short letter. I'm glad that Dan wrote about happy frisky seniors though.
76
OK,Dan, what if this swinging guy has a change of heart or already is a fundamentalist Christian with a firm point of view against abortion. So he files a law suit against Ms. Nobaby and ties her up in court until she no longer has access to an abortion. Anything is possible.
77
It never occurred to me that the lw could be a woman. For one thing, the letter says these two 70 year-olds have flirted and joked about getting it on with each other for years, and yet the cousin is recently "divorced," which probably means the cousin has been married to a man. So I found the odds of a very closeted 70-year-old lesbian flirting with her lesbian cousin for 50 years to be much slimmer than the odds that a pair of opposite-sex cousins would have flirted for 50 years.

Then there's the fact that the cousin wants to have her first "lesbian experience" but can't ask the lw to provide it, and instead just wants the lw to watch and then "join" in. If the lw was a woman, why would she need to watch; why would they have to try to find a lesbian for the cousin?

Lastly, the lw says: This is a kinky dream come true! I love oral sex, and with two pussies to eat, etc., the whole thing sounds just great! How kinky is cunnilingus to a lesbian? Not that much. How kinky is it for a straight man to watch two women get it on and then get to eat two pussies (and what about that "etc.")? Much more so and much more Penthouse Forum-worthy.

But don't do the "gramps" thing.
78
Since when does an unwanted pregnancy have to turn into an education experience? It's not as if the man who accidentally impregnated the swinger wife in the second letter was being careless or cavalier; she says they were using protection which somehow failed. The couple is clear on what they want, and they don't need either the financial or emotional support of the other couple or the other husband. If they want to say, "hey, it turns out that the condom failed and Julie got pregnant. She's terminating the pregnancy/she terminated the pregnancy last week," that's fine, but it's unnecessary.

Dan's idea that she should let the other couple know so that they can heave a sigh of relief at a bullet dodged, be grateful for legal abortion and the positive impact is has on their lives, and be more vigilant about using birth control doesn't seem all that warranted. He doesn't need the "lesson;" there's no reason to assume this couple doesn't know how safe and legal abortion benefits society in general and them in particular. On the other hand, why not tell the other couple after the fact? The lw says that they're "good friends."
79
I never knew until now that Dan was an idiot. There is no good reason NAH to let her play buddy know that she is having an abortion and a few good reasons not to let him know.
80
@Chandira

You want to familiarize yourself with the ongoing complaints about Essure before jumping right in. As far as I've read, the coil of copper can break and end up anywhere in your lower abdomen. So... beware.
81
@78 nocutename

I quite agree.
82
@78 Abortion has been under strong attack since '10. That murdered doctor, then increased restrictions in most states, now the mandatory ultrasounds, and shutting down clinics.. Roe v Wade was huge, like overturning DOMA, and I think it's a good idea to learn from what worked for gay marriage. Openly talk about it before political nutjobs have teenagers using clothes hangers again. One great friend of mine was able to have an awesome career because she could terminate her early unplanned (condoms) pregnancy.
83
sharing the news of your pregnancy and decision to terminate is up to you. Tell if you want but don't do it to make some kind of political statement. Abortion should be safe, legal, accessible, and something that can be talked about openly. I believe all of that firmly and vote accordingly. *But* it is a big deal, it does snuff out the potential for life, and it often causes emotional turmoil-denying this, or painting these things as inconsequential is disingenuous.
84
Telling the other couple that you might be pregnant with his child but are going to abort it seems needlessly cruel. I mean, he might not mind, or he might just be glad and grateful that you're getting an abortion, but there's a decent chance it would bother either him or his wife. This kind of stuff often bothers people! Why tell them something that might upset them if you don't need to?

The rationale that openly saying you've had an abortion will help men to appreciate abortion rights could likely backfire: Sure, some men would respond by being really grateful she'd had an abortion, but some will respond by being really *angry* she had an abortion, and angry they didn't get a say in whether she did or not. I haven't done a poll but it seems to me there's about as much chance of creating anti-choice sentiment as of creating pro-choice sentiment. :/
85
@78 nocutename & @81 sissoucat re: @43's comment: I third it.
86
Ahem. What a fucking mess. Ahem.
87
I wonder if OBA's cousin is interested in a cousins-with-benefits relationship with OBA or if she's just using him as one of the two unicorns her fantasy requires. If I was OBA I might feel a little strange about my first sexual experience with my 50-years-of-flirting cousin taking place with in the company of presumably total stranger. First time _plus_ first threesome seems a little potentially fraught with drama. And is OBA's cousin expecting him to provide the female unicorn? It sounds like if "she's having the time of her life" that she is pretty active sexually already.
88
There is a continuum on being open about having had an abortion, and it often runs in the opposite direction to safety for the teller. I would not advise against telling someone you barely know that you had an abortion after he impregnated you. This is potentially very unsafe if the guy turns out to have extreme opinions. I think less extreme, less risky telling is wiser.
89
@83 " don't do it to make some kind of political statement"

Why exactly? If politicians are pushing to restrict abortion, it is political. Unless the man or in this case couple is deranged or dangerous or it's otherwise ill advised, coming out about the abortion would help.

I agree that pregnancy is a big deal. Everything about kids is a big deal including piv sex. And I think that if men remembered that sex for pleasure comes with access to hormonal birth control, condoms, and abortions then we wouldn't have mandatory ultrasound bs. It's much like reversion therapy- it provably doesn't work. I don't believe abortions snuff life because I don't believe women would have nearly so much piv sex without the availability of abortions. Instead, I think that all forms of birth control promote sex for pleasure for straight women (and their male lovers). I understand that some people don't have sex for reasons other than procreation, but the vast majority do, and reasonably should support safe birth control options.

@84 If you don't agree with abortions, don't have one or sleep with women who don't want your baby, but pulling a fit after the fact shouldn't be expected of good friends.

Sex isn't masturbation; it has risks of STIs and pregnancy and people can easily get embarrassed and selfish and scared and insulted and even really physically damaged with poor communication or expectations. I don't think that shielding people from this helps. I believe in risk aware decisions.
90
Did OBA tell you he was a grandfather, Dan? I hate it when people assume that older people are Grandpas and Grandmas...do you call 30 year olds "mom" and "dad" without knowing anything about them? Of course not.
And all you folks calling the guy a "geezer"? Really?
Ageism is alive and well, and it sucks that it's totally acceptable to make assumptions and generalizations about people because of their age. Everyone was young once, that's how it works.
Have a little respect, people.

91
To OBA: Sounds like a fun time. Why don't the two of you go to Vegas, enjoy the spectacle, and then head on over to the Bunny Ranch, https://www.bunnyranch.com/main.php, It could be a real bang and all legal with experienced woman who would love to help you with your fantasy. It's going to cost you some money, but with any luck, your trip to Vegas will bring some winnings to spend. Wish I was there to watch...Enjoy!!!
92
@73 The thing is that situation only works if the woman's story ends there. Usually it doesn't. Life goes on even when Bad Things happen.

It's possible the woman may feel that way, until she sees her friends getting messy, painful, divorces and may realize that get an abortion allowed her to dodge a bullet.

Or she may find herself getting a chance at a job, or fulfilling a dream, or a relationship that she may not have gotten had she been a parent.

Or she may be a kick-ass single Mom and with that will come the maturity to realize that her decision was right for her but other people may make different ones but that's okay.

People change, life changes people. What one person feels now they may not feel forever.
93
Philophile @89:

yesyesyesyesyesyesyes
95
As one who had her first MFF experience a few weeks ago, I caution OBA not to get too wound up. I'm glad I did it, and I want to do it again, but my fantasies were a lot better than the reality. Our unicorn talked a better talk than she walked. These things happen, and just like sex with one partner, sometimes it takes practice and time to find the right person/groove.

Ask around among friends who might have similar interests. You might be surprised!
Good Luck!
96
@94 Why should the woman carry all the knowledge herself? He was 50% involved in creating a pregnancy. He should know that it's being dealt with. Why should he live in blissful ignorance while someone else takes care of the unwanted pregnancy?

97
@90, when my daughter was pregnant, I decided I didn't want any Granny
Name, so I looked up international names for grandmother. I chose the Filipino , informal one. So now my granddaughter calls me Lola.
98
@JoanPrice: If this wasn't a brilliant move by you and Dan, I'll be surprised. I'm half kidding, but think about it: Everyone made their own gender assumptions and then puzzled at the respective responses. But if you go back and read it again knowing it's a dude writing, you quickly see where you (meaning me) made incorrect gender assumptions and where you were wrong. In other words, it made me think about my own biases and even though I consider myself an open-minded and non-prejudiced guy, one quickly still makes a series of judgments and assumptions. Anyway, bravo for the provocative letter, intentional or not.
99
@89, " I don't believe abortion snuffs life".it snuffs life, of course not life that is independent of her mother. But, life, nonetheless.
100
LavaGirl @99, yes it “snuffs life,” but only trivially. Other things that “snuff life”:

Swatting a mosquito.
Taking antibiotics for a Chlamydia trachomatis infection.
Slaughtering a pig.

In particular, slaughtering a pig is a *much* bigger deal than having an abortion. If you think someone should be traumatized by having an abortion then I assume you are vegan and that you wear a veil over your mouth so that you don’t accidentally swallow and snuff any of the life that buzzes around in the air.
101
@100, you got to be kidding me.. You equate swatting a mosquito with having an abortion?
I fully support a woman's right to choose what happens to her body. What I find disquieting, is the denial of what abortion actually is. It is the termination of a human life. It may only be a few cells of that life, but it is life.
102
@100, I don't assume a woman will be traumatized by having an abortion. Your words. I have never had an abortion. I don't know how it feels. I don't know if it would have traumatized me.
I was responding to a poster saying abortion doesn't snuff out life. And that is not true.