@98: I left those parts out because they're not relevant.

Bullshit. She decided what they would do, and they did it. She got her preferred compromise, and now she gets her preferred not-compromise and he gets nothing. Then, you pretended that it was his decision and not hers. Then you pretended not to be on a side. This is silly.

If you empathized with the dude, would you be dissembling in order to minimize his pain and dismiss his problems? I don't think you would.

@100, lol. show me where I said "the open relationship was his idea."

@95 I wrote that you claim she's not entitled to outside sex (despite him agreeing to open the marriage) because the only reason he agreed to open the marriage was because she wasn't having the "standard" amount of sex with him. I stand by my interpretation of your words.

Editing my post @103: both statements are to Eudaemonic @100. The second one is trying to explain what I was saying @95.

@101: Thank you. Yes, EricaP is lying about what I said.

EricaP, I don't really hold that against you, because I know how hard gender stereotypes (and the learned lack of empathy) can be to overcome, and that people will fight like hell--even against themselves--to justify this crap. I don't want all this to sound like I think you're a bad person, because I don't; I just think you're making it really obvious that you have some stuff to work through. I wish you luck in that, because it's worth it.

Good night, everyone. Or day, I guess, what with time zones and everything.

Oh, and Eudaemonic, I agree: sometimes bad things happen to men and it's not their fault.

I'll even make that more specific: this man's marriage went bad, and it wasn't his fault. He did everything right, and yet his wife still doesn't find him very sexually attractive, at least not compared to her other options. That sucks for him. I agree.

@102: OK, now I'll write something empathizing with the dude.
You are absolutely crazy about your wife. You've been crazy about her since you first met her, and even now-- several years of marriage in-- she's all you want to be with. The fifty pounds she's gained don't mean anything to you-- besides, you were always a tits and ass guy. :) But lately, your wife just isn't into sex anymore. You make it clear that you love her and are totally OK with the weight, but she turns you down. Again. And again. And again. And as a result, your self-esteem starts going to shit. It's hard to feel good about yourself when the person you love isn't into you.

You meet a cute girl at your office. She starts flirting with you, and you surprise yourself by responding. It's been a while since anyone showed any interest in you, so you keep doing it. Nothing serious-- you would never jeopardize your relationship with your wife. But enough to make you feel wanted and desired.

Your wife finds the texts, and calmly suggests an open marriage. This comes out of the blue to you: you were just flirting, after all! And besides, you don't like the idea, as you only want to be with your wife. But she makes her case: you have needs, she knows she's not meeting them, it's only fair you get those needs met elsewhere. And as you think about it-- that you could actually have sex with this other woman you were previously only thinking about-- the idea has its appeal. So you agree.

You keep the affair on the DL, out of respect for your wife. And you feel great having the affair: not just about the sex, but about having a gal look at you again with "I'm totally going to fuck you" eyes. But your first priority is always your wife, and you periodically check in on her. She says she's fine.

And she is fine. She's working out, eating better, starts to lose weight. She looks healthier and happier. And her libido starts coming back as well: what was was begrudgingly given becomes enthusiastic. The woman you married is back! Now that she's fulfilling all your needs, you spend less and less time with your girlfriend. When the opportunity comes to move to another city, you take it without hesitation. Gives a clean break to an affair that was winding down anyway.

You're having a hard time adjusting to life in the new city. You don't have any friends, and your co-workers all know you as the guy who was cheating on his wife and stay away from you. Meanwhile, your wife has starting fucking other people. Lots of other people. While she's all you ever really wanted, apparently you aren't all she wanted. And you feel horribly rejected, all over again.

You think about asking to close the marriage, but feel like a colossal jerk for thinking it. "Fair's fair" you say to yourself. You got to have your affair, so it's only reasonable that your wife would get to have hers. But every night she goes out without you, you get this cold pit of jealousy and rejection in your gut. And you wonder how much longer you'll have to put up with it.

There. Now I challenge you to do the same with the wife. Can you?

Dr Sean - I pay attention to a good many people who are generally reliable on at least one subject, not just Ms Erica. Ms Sissou, Mr Horton, your good self, Mr Ophian, Ms Cute, Ms Cummins, Mr Fortunate, Mr Mehlman, Ms Driasis, Mr Lash, Mr Monic, even Ms Lava and a number of others all spring to mind as having presented clear and consistent opinions on at least one subject each.

@101: I have no idea what she thought of his affair. In case you didn't notice, I made up a lot of details that weren't in the original letter. That's what you do when you try to empathize.

@96 oh, I see. All right then. Moving on.

I'm curious about that extra weight meaning she didn't want to have sex.

Was the weight actually interfering with her libido? Or did it instead interfere with her ability to see herself as a sexy person? If the slowdown in sex was more about her feeling insecure about her sexiness (and possibly therefore shutting down her sexual self) and the permission to open the marriage a way to keep from feeling guilty about having a husband stuck with unsexy her (as she would see it), then her behaviour now makes sense.

She's exploring her power. She sees herself as sexy again, and, (possibly for the first time in her life) has permission to explore with multiple partners, guilt free. She's wallowing in it, a bit.

There's a real possibility that once she's had her fill, she'll calm down to something he can live with. Or not - this may be who she is now.

At any rate, I'd advise him to approach this from the direction of getting his needs met. Not just his needs for sex, but also his need for her time and attention. If he's sitting at home watching TV while she's out getting laid every night, that's a problem for her. He's her primary, and deserves, within reason, to feel valued by her.

He doesn't have to tell her he is jealous, but should tell her he's lonely, or feeling adrift, or missing her, or what other thing is true and is part of where the jealousy is coming from.

Been there, done that, and wrecked the car while at it.

Now, husband one was the one who pressured me into an open marriage, whereas OPEN sounds like he only went along because she suggested it. I wonder, because she volunteered only after she discovered him in the start of an emotional affair with another person.

However, I can bet you dollars to donuts that she was feeling really ugly and unattractive, which can really destroy one's ability to engage in sex of the vanilla kind, even with a nice GG guy. I know, I was that chick. But then, ahhh, lose some weight and then genie is out of the bottle.

If he does anything as silly as telling her to stop right now, she'll likely tell him to take a hike. After all, as someone pointed out, he has his year of fun, even if its a different kind of fun that she's having now, and no doubt she's on an incredible high of feeling like a desired woman again (sigh). In my case, when H1 insisted that our marriage close again (I was having way more fun than he was, I guess I was more attractive than he gave me due), I gave him his walking papers.

So stripped down... She's having fun. its a different kind of "fun" than what he envisioned, but tough, he never bothered to work that out. He just went and had the fun HE wanted.

He needs to do what Dan recommended. Discuss some parameters - definitely discuss safe sex - but IMHO, he'll just have to eat his jealousy. He should have stopped and asked exactly what it meant for him if SHE got around over a year ago, like a grown up, but he was much too interested in the coworker.

I, myself, am with H2. H2 and I have agreed that I can have independent relationships with women (I had experimented in college, and its nice to go back to that). Works for us.

I'm always fascinated at how some letters seem to work as Rorschach Tests on the Slog readership.
So OPEN's opened a lot of wounds, it would appear.

I don't think we're going to be able to get the fullest and most unbiased picture here, even if OPEN himself writes back to clarify, as we won't be getting his wife's perspective, and that seems relevant.

I don't pretend to know what each of these people wanted or felt or why they did what they did or what those things meant to them or their partners.

I think it's safe to say that probably the husband wanted more sex from his wife and she felt too unattractive to feel sexy. (When you feel profoundly unattractive, it's impossible to really believe that someone else can really find you attractive.) As several people have pointed out, overweight women become virtually invisible socially and sexually.
They were still having sex, but only about half as often as he preferred, and she rejected him about half the time. Despite only having half the sex he wanted with her, he says the sex they had was good, but he complained that is wasn't very innovative. So maybe he was getting a little bored with the routine sex as well as wishing to have more of it.

Then his wife found flirtatious texts from a co-worker on his phone. Her suggestion to open the marriage up appears to be in response to this. I would guess that she felt guilty for not giving him what he wanted, perhaps afraid he'd leave if he didn't get it (and she felt incapable of providing it). Maybe she felt relieved. We don't know why she rejected the idea of "porn and toys," but maybe she's a woman who doesn't like porn, or maybe the "toys" he suggested were things that she considered libido-killers. It's impossible to tell whether the husband's suggestion of "porn and toys" was meant to stimulate her interest in having sex again or were given as suggestions of things he wanted because they would spice things up for him. At any rate, the wife seemed to be trying to be ggg--or at least the second 2 gs--by suggesting opening up the marriage. Even though she didn't take advantage of that opened marriage herself.

Meanwhile he has a year-long affair with the same woman coworker he'd flirted with, and furthermore, that affair only ended because he and his wife moved. It's hard to know how the wife felt about that, but if she had felt threatened by the suspicion that her husband was interested in this other woman, an affair that only ended because of the loss of proximity is unlikely to have reassured her of her husband's interest in only her. During this year, she lost weight and seems to have regained a sense of herself as sexy and desirable again. The two of them start having more frequent and better sex, but the husband doesn't say that this change in wife's appearance and behavior made him stop having sex with the poor wife-substitute his coworker provided. He seems to have had his cake and been able to eat it, too, at this time.

Then they move. The affair ends because of geography. He says "now I'm not looking for anything on the side". He doesn't say, "I have no interest in anyone but my wife and I'm feeling rejected." He says he's not looking. Perhaps he wasn't the one to make the first flirtatious moves with the coworker; maybe he prefers being pursued, or he's shy, or he feels like that affair just sort of "happened" and he contrasts that with being the kind of guy who's going to go looking for an affair.

He also doesn't say that he and his wife have stopped having sex, and it's really impossible for us to know what the state of their sex life is.

Meanwhile, the wife seems to have taken the opportunity this move, coupled with her new appearance and newly-restored self-confidence have given her to go a little hog-wild. I don't think that having sex with 4 people over 2 months is all that "crazy," but it represents a different approach to openness than having a long-term affair with a coworker.
And the wife definitely seems insensitive to his feelings of rejection.

He acknowledges his jealousy and realizes he looks like an "asshole" if he tells her he wants to shut it all down. And that's not even what he necessarily wants to do: he's wondering if he should change the terms of their open relationship so he doesn't have to be confronted by his wife's sexual adventures.

She may have been invisible 50 pounds ago, but at an average or more conventionally attractive weight, the reality is it will be easier for the wife to find sex partners, especially if what she's looking for are NSA FWBs or other casual partners. It's a truism that it's easier for married women to find men to have sex with them than it is for married men to find women to have sex with them. And as we've discussed here before, oftentimes women don't seem as interested in married men if those men are in open marriages, rather than carrying on secret affairs. I'd hazard that many men, knowing the married woman offering sex is in an open marriage and therefore not going to lobby for a "relationship" are more often relieved than not.

I don't think we have to see this in terms of one of them is a bad guy and one is the wronged party; I don't think we can say that the wife is "owed" the same amount of time to play outside the marriage that her husband has had. I don't know if she is no longer interested in her husband, or whether the two of them are having better sex than ever before because the wife is bringing home all that sexual mojo. I don't know whether the husband's too unhappy at his wife's social/sexual success to be turned on. I don't know whether the sexual adventures she's having will burn themselves out (it's only been 2 months). having sex with your new neighbors and coworkers seems ill-advised to me, but who knows how this is being conducted.

But just as it wasn't one person's unilateral decision to open the marriage ("We talked it to death before deciding we should move into (open) uncharted waters."), it can't be one person's decision either to shut the openness down or keep that door open if the other is miserable this way. They should have another talk to death. She might want to slow down; he might want to acknowledge his jealousy and try to deal with it and let her have the same fun he was allowed to have for a full year, and which only ended because circumstances changed, not as a tit-for-tat kind of thing she's "owed," but because he loves her and wants her to be happy. They may also want to adopt a more hotwifey kind of attitude, in which he derives satisfaction from the knowledge that other people find his wife sexy and lucky him, he's the one who really has her. Perhaps that would be a way for them to look at this. And of course, she could practice more discretion.

They don't need to be adversaries.
And neither do we, talking about their marriage.

I think OPEN absolutely has the right to go back to his wife and say, "Hey, I'm having a harder time dealing with this than I thought, can we discuss what an open relationship means to both of us," but if he and his wife could communicate like that we'd have no letter to nitpick.

I think bagging on the wife at this juncture is a dick move, considering that they likely didn't discuss boundaries and the like. It's incredibly short-sighted to assume that each party's "open" relationship is going to look exactly the same. If they didn't set ground rules to begin with other than, "we get to have sex with other people now," then they need to re-work this. Picking apart whose fault their current situation or whether the wife's current sexual exploits meet the terms of the original agreement is inappropriate.

They really just need to figure out a way to talk this out. Neither of their feelings are invalid.

Yes, @113, I'm not comfortable with the "owed" aspect that so many posters have jumped on. Presumably these two want each other to be happy..

A "ha ha, should have thought of that a year ago" approach is not the way to happiness.

Like your post no cute name.

Agony, I definitely have the "should have thought of this a year before attitude." I just find it rich that the husband is complaining only after his affair ended and after she starts getting attention. That leads to my malice.

Even though she started getting in shape and the sex kicked up - thus curing the initial problem in the marriage according to him - he continued with his other lady. He waited until she was having fun to decide she was all he wanted. I

Btw, I'd have the same response if the genders were reversed. "You agreed to an open marriage because you were the one pursuing someone outside the marriage. ....you must accept your spouse having the same opportunities. "

@116 @ 117 DarkHorseRising; agree with both your comments. This guy didn't mind his wife going thru the yr he was off and about but baulks at giving her a similar opportunity. And tries to put her down and belittle her for how she wants to
Play. My response would have been the same if OPEN was a woman.
And, these flirtatious texts- would like to know exactly what was in them.

nocute @113 "just as it wasn't one person's unilateral decision to open the marriage ("We talked it to death before deciding we should move into (open) uncharted waters."), it can't be one person's decision either to shut the openness down or keep that door open if the other is miserable this way. They should have another talk to death."

Well put.

No where in OPENs letter does he say he loves his wife.

Dear Newbie (New-Bi?) Slut:
Welcome to the Bay Area! It's too bad you just missed the Folsom Street Fair last Sunday, but you sound like a sweet young man and I'm sure that your honesty about your nervousness and lack of experience will be more charming and endearing than traits to heap ridicule on you. I'm betting that you'll do just fine.

Check out sfqueer.com and mycastro.com for starters. If you want to be really slutty, try going across the bay to Berkeley and visit the Steamworks.

Have fun and take a lesson from the other letter in this week's column: check in with your wife regularly to see what's working for each of you individually and for you as a couple in this new monogamishness, in this new city, in your new relationships with men. You will probably have to make periodic readjustments to the new "rules" you two came up with before the theoretical openness became a reality.

Good luck to you and your wife and have a blast!

@121: I take that as a given. The fact that he doesn't say it doesn't mean he doesn't feel it.

I don't understand all this talk of the wife pushing an open relationship on the husband. Sure, from the way he wrote it, it sounds like it was her idea. And it sounds like he may have had some doubts about it, at first.

But he could have said no. He didn't have to agree with the idea. And he certainly didn't have to have sex with his coworker.

I don't understand why certain people are making it sound as though the wife had some long term scheme going on, or that the hubby was somehow pressured into having sex with a coworker that he was already exchanging questionable texts with. Did the wife take him by the genitals and force another woman on him?

I do think that it's definitely something they need to discuss, but it's very odd how there seems to be a hardcore group of people here that seem pretty convinced that the husband was dragged, kicking and screaming, into an open relationship against his will.

@124: I agree. I find it ironic, because OPEN himself doesn't seem to blame the wife for forcing him into this open marriage. Just as he's aware that his jealousy is kind of irrational or at the least seems unfair.

But I have to hand it to the wife: that was a damned clever scheme she hatched to make sure that she could fuck around with impunity and make her lonely, love-lorn husband suffer simultaneously:

1) Gain a shitload of weight.
2) Live with it a while and stop being interested in about half as much sex as before.
3) Persuade the husband's coworker to flirt with him.
4) "Pretend" to discover flirtatious texts on husband's phone.
5) Refuse any other course of action in response besides insisting, against husband's will, that the marriage open up and he be allowed to fuck said coworker.
6) Forgo all extra-marital sex herself.
7) Wait a year, during which time:
7a) Lose 50 pounds.
8) Arrange for the couple to move.
9) Cast a spell over husband so he no longer wants anyone but her.
10) Fuck every living person in the new town except husband.
11) Laugh at his misery and refuse to stop rubbing his nose in her success.

Yup, it sure was a nefarious plan. And so easy!

@125:

Well, when you put it like that, it DOES sounds pretty easy. Thank you for clearing that up for me! <3

@nocutename: I'm always fascinated at how some letters seem to work as Rorschach Tests on the Slog readership.

What's fascinating to me is how the guys in these letters seem to remind everyone of their ex-husbands.

(You're a notable exception in that regard.)

@Seandr; might be onto some thing there . Can't believe I've wasted good time answering a letter from a guy, who is obviously a narcissist.
Me. Me.Me.....

Here's a partial solution: If she can manage -several- threesomes with her best friend and her best friend's husband, then she can fucking well manage several threesomes with her best friend and her OWN husband.

That would be a good start.

Because the unifying theme in this story is about limited interest in her husband:

-- Starts with a fifty percent rejection rate and fairly uninspiring vanilla sex the rest of the time;
-- Continues with her refusing what he offers in the way of spicing things up, offering that he seek satisfaction from someone else, and that she just doesn't have it in her to step up her own game with him;
-- And the climax of the story is that now that she has her mojo back, she is having more and better sex with him, BUT apparently all the exotica is now being expended enthusiastically on other people. STILL NOT ON HIM.

In terms of reopening negotiaions, rather than just pulling the plug, he needs to figure out what sort of behavior on her part would make him feel like she was actually interested in him, rather than doling out what she thinks he is entitled to.

And she ought to ask herself -- and he ought to ask her -- why she hasn't thought to include him? Seriously, MULTIPLE threesomes with the best friend and her husband? And not one involving her own husband? That requires some serious explaining.

@130:
Wife: "What if we include my husband?"

Friend: "Not that douchebag--I'm sorry, honey; I know you love him, but I'm not attracted to him."

You mean like that?

131: Confused here. Your previous posts didn't seem to indicate you thought LW was a douchebag.

Point taken that it takes all participants to consent, and point taken that we don't know for sure that she hasn't made those inquiries on her husband's behalf. The overall tenor of the letter suggests to me that she hasn't -- one would think that if she was interested in including her husband and had made the inquiries to do so, that she would have discussed it with him.

That said, were I in this situation and on top of everything else in this letter, my wife was regularly banging people who thought I was a douchebag, then that would be a nail in the coffin of the relationship. And I don't think merely keeping that comment dark from hubby would be sufficient. You are siding with people who despise your husband. That is a betrayal of your relationship.

What @131 said.

Why are all these people assuming that "he owes her a threesome"? Threesomes, by definition involve a third party, who is not a passive sex toy and needs a motivation of herself/himself (aka sexual attraction).

Also, what @124 and @125 said.

What's all this talk that he was pushed into a 1 year relationship with his colleague against his own wish, as the only solution for a sexually frustrating marriage? The letter says "I was still attracted to her [the wife], but I was rejected half the time. The other half, we had good sex, but nothing new or interesting." Hello? This sounds like an excellent sex life within the context of a normal marriage (where, more often than not, people are not perfectly matched in their sex drive). If he had written a letter to Dan at this point complaining about his sexual frustration he would have been demolished for not seeing how good he was getting it. If in addition he had said the wife gave him carte blanche to pursue the co-worker, Dan would have canonized her into GGG heaven.

He is having a rough time now and they should for sure discuss it openly and lovingly and work on how to improve their relationship to make sure they are both happy. This may or may not involve her calming down a bit on her extra-marital explorations, and this may or may not involve them exploring together hot threesomes. Only they can decide what will work well for both of them.

But there is nothing in the letter that makes me think she has done anything wrong - quite the contrary!

And I am just amazed by the level of slut-shaming she is getting from some of Dan's readers!

@130 - read the letter again.

The last update we have on their sex life is that "we started having better and more frequent sex". He does not complain anywhere that she is currently neglecting him on the sex front, which he probably would if that was the case. Quite the opposite: by following that sentence with "Now I'm not looking for anything on the side" I am reading that he is now (finally) satisfied with their sex life.

He is not complaining about her lack of interest for him, he is complaining about her excess of interest for other people.

Perfect example of Chinese whispers, right here; this thread.. Just a lot of different readings from the same set of words.

LW OPEN; I think you should divorce this wonton woman, leave her to her Fuck Fest - return to your old town, marry the co worker, have lots of babies and live happily ever after ..

No one has commented on the wife's bi-sexual nature, which may have played a part in her sexual disinterest in her husband. From his perspective, the sex was good but that doesn't mean it was good for her. A woman having orgasmless sex would sooner or later tire of giving all the time and not getting. Couple this with her poor self image and you can understand why she rejected her husband's sexual advances half the time.
Now she's having"rock your world" sex with her new friends and can now accommodate her husband's sexual ineptitude. And who could blame her for not wanting to give up her newly rediscovered libido?

You are right Sean. I do see shades of my ex. But then, that is what peaked my interest in the letter. I do admit a bias. But then, had my ex not taken me down the road he did, I wouldn't be where I am now, which is a million times better place.

We know exactly the tenor of those flirtatious texts with the coworker. He engaged in a year long affair! I doubt she'd get much love if she wrote in saying, "I agreed to an open relationship but now my husband is sleeping with several women."

Of course, she committed the ultimate cardinal sin here in Dan-land: she wouldn't bang him whenever and however he wanted. I consider myself reasonably ggg, but sometimes turn down my husband and vice versa. There are limits to the scope of what we will engage in.

Now she's thrown open the door in a big way. He doesn't like it. Especially since she's getting to walk on the wild side and he isn't. You all want to spin jealousy as being "neglected emotionally" and it'd all be okay if she just had a three-some with him. I see his jealousy as the typical kind- I dont want my wife doing other men. Think he'd go for a mfm? Doubt it.

Now wife ought to be considering his emotional state....

But you know what also rots a relationship? Lack of fairness and equality.

And btw he definitely did get something out of this - the things he ostensibly wanted: a year long no strings affair and a skinnier more sexually adventurous wife.

LW Open: I think LavaGirl and I are finally in agreement. Get a divorce, go back to the coworker who's actually interested in you and/or cares about your feelings. Your wife has made very clear that she doesn't and won't; why are you still married?

It's taken me a long time to get to this point, but: DTMFA. As long as you stay with her, she's going to keep making you miserable, and everyone in the world is going to keep pretending it's your own fault. Leave.

@133. Exactly.

Btw, I dont consider OPEN a bad husband I think he needs to recognizes see that he won't be able to snap his fingers and everything goes back to what it was.

Why assume she doesn't care about his feelings? Because she's sleeping with other men? He did. Because she 's playing and he isn't? He did that to. Because she did a three-some? Those are kind of rare birds to fall into. She can't make her friend sleep wIth him. In addition there is no indication that she isn't sleeping with her husband or for goodness sake he's even told her he's feeling neglected.

@132: You're confusing me with my rendition of a hypothetical response from OPEN's wife's threesome-having-without-OPEN best friend: I don't necessarily think OPEN is a douchebag. In fact, I feel for the guy, as he is clearly unhappy.

My point, avast2006, is that just as seandr says many women view all the men in these letters as being just like their ex-husbands, a lot of people--most of them male--seem to be really angry at the wife and want to blame her for something. There's a lot of "wronged-man" going on in the comments section. Perhaps the letter strikes a nerve.

We really don't know very much about this complex situation. We don't know, for example, what OPEN thinks of threesomes in general, or what he thinks of the best friend--whom he might not be attracted to. It could well be that he is not interested in having a threesome--or not with this friend. Or not with his wife (because he doesn't want to witness her having sex with someone else). We don't know whether he has been offered the chance to join in and he declined. All we know is that the wife has had threesomes and he didn't participate. Maybe they have children and he couldn't participate because someone needed to be home with them!

We don't know that she's not giving him sexual attention now. He doesn't say that she either is or isn't. He just feels jealous because she's having sex with others.

I wonder if it would be easier for him if she were to exercise her open options more as he had done: by having a long-term emotionally-invested affair with one person. Is it the comparative sluttiness that's bothering him or is it just that he realizes that she has other options besides him.

He uses the word "jealous," not "envious."
So he may not be envious of what she's getting that he isn't getting (i.e. sex with others) so much as he is going crazy thinking of her having sex with anyone else. In that case, I don't know that being involved in a threesome would help. Nor would it help if she got involved in a long-term, emotionally-invested affair. He's going to be upset at the idea of anyone else having sex with his wife.

You say she continued to refuse what he offered by way of spicing things up when they had the initial conversation to open the marriage. I assume you refer to his suggestion of "porn and toys" to counter the fact that he was flirting with a coworker. But you seem to ignore the fact that he wasn't complaining about being completely neglected at that point and that he doesn't appear to have been put-off by the offer to open the marriage. In fact, he responded by starting an affair with the woman he'd been caught flirting with which is what precipitated the opening up conversation in the first place--NOT the wife's 50% rejection of his advances. Isn't it possible that he was heading for what would have been a secret affair had his wife not found the texts and confronted the issue head-on?

We don't know. There's a lot we don't know. I'm not defending the wife, but I am wondering why you and a few others are attacking her. There are two people here and it seems, from the evidence only one has presented (and remember, the person who writes the letter controls how the parties in the letter are portrayed), that both are responsible for the situations they have found themselves in.

Although OPEN's letter clearly mentions bisexuals, it is not clear if Ms OPEN's BFF is a married woman or married gay man.

Would Ms OPEN owe him a MMF threesome?

To me it seems as though both had different views on what their open relationship looked like. And OPEN didn't get to see his wife's view of it until a year later.

I wonder what would have happened if the wife would have starting sleeping with multiple partners at the beginning of the open relationship? I'm guessing that OPEN may have wanted to call it off and probably would have had the leverage to do so because they were out there together. But since he had his thing for a year and she's still in the early stages, he's now feeling guilty for wanting her to stop, and is just looking for advice on how to negotiate.

What he needs to say

"I can't hold it against you for having multiple partners over a short time span since that was never explicitly ruled out, but I'm telling you now that it makes me uncomfortable. For this open relationship to continue, we are going to have to negotiate some ground rules"

@143 edit: Or married bi man. That was a horribly monogamist of me. Apologies.

I'm not defending the wife, but I am wondering why you and a few others are attacking her.

Given that the mass response here was "The husband is a terrible terrible person, and ha ha he's miserable and it's his fault ha ha" coupled with "well, his wife is happy, so how can he possibly be complaining? It's not like he has his own feelings, amirite?" ...pushing back against sexist bullshit isn't attacking the wife.

Imagine how different this entire thread would appear if the genders were reversed.

Anyway, back to the wife: All we know about her is that she's not very interested in her husband. She's got access to a lot of sexual opportunity, and is enjoying it without bringing the husband along.

If the husband was the only one with an income, and he basically spent it all on himself, think about what you'd be saying about him.

Also: Can we stop pretending that when you reject someone half the time, it's the "half" part that matters, and not the "reject" part? I would've expected you to have more sympathy for someone on the receiving end of long-term rejection from a spouse. How would you have felt if, after your affair, you stayed married and your husband started having a new affair every couple of weeks?

Would people be justified in blaming you, and saying it's all your fault, and condemning you for being less than totally happy with it? Would you want to be called a douchebag for being unhappy?

Also, while OPEN should have been more explicit with what he was comfortable with his wife doing before opening up, the wife should also have been more explicit with what she wanted and/or would be seeking if and when she ventured out.

Ultimately, both lacked the communication skills to negotiate an open relationship.

@146:
Eudaemonic, I'd encourage you to go back and reread both the original letter and the comment thread with a totally fresh eye. I think you'll find it's not the way you're characterizing it.

To take your points:

First of all, I went back over the comments and very few of them were as you have characterized them--that is, as laughing at or attacking the man. I can find only two commentors that do anything like that, and they still make valid points. I also find a few comments from people whom I think are men that are in support of the wife's right to have an open relationship. Mostly, though, I see people saying they should talk about it, should renegotiate. I see people trying to understand other factors, such as OPEN's possible loneliness in a new city.

In fact, it's you and avast that introduce the hostile tone--and it's directed at the wife.

Secondly, as to gender reversal: Go over to the Savage Love Letter of the Day on Monday called "Played Out," by the woman who signed herself CHEAT, and you'll find scores of ridicule and scorn being heaped on her from both men and women. I don't think this is a gender-divide thing as much as you do. As a matter of fact, one of the two commentors that you responded to in this thread had a pretty unsupportive, judgmental, harsh attitude towards CHEAT--so at least she's consistent. And I didn't see you rushing in to defend CHEAT from that blame.

Thirdly: You say "All we know about her is that she's not very interested in her husband." I'd counter that, no, we don't know she's not interested in her husband. All we know is that (A) once she lost weight and gained confidence she started being more interested in having more frequent and more exciting sex with him, her husband and (B) now that that she's in a new community she's having lots of sexual adventures. You are assuming that her low interest in having as much innovative sex as her husband wanted initially is due to her not desiring him. I (and others) suggest it might have had more to do with her own feelings of self-confidence and attractivenss, especially since when she lost weight her behavior changed with regard to the same husband. In other words, it's really not about him; it's about her.

You also say: "She's got access to a lot of sexual opportunity, and is enjoying it without bringing the husband along." Here you're correct. Nor did he "bring her along" for his year-long affair with his coworker--the one he was flirting with which is what began the discussion to open the marriage. To you, must an open marriage mean that both parties share all extra-marital sex? Perhaps that is the rule that you would set for you and your wife, but it's not a standard rule. Many couples agree to a lopsided openness (which seems to be what this couple has had twice now, apparently not to the husband's liking when he's not getting any), and many allow each other their own respective extra-marital relationships, which don't have to be mutual and shared. This isn't polyamory. And in any case, you don't criticize the OPEN for not including his wife in his affair. So I don't see your point.

I agree that the husband is feeling jealous (his word) and possibly envious, as well as left-out and maybe socially isolated. I agree with Philophile that perhaps the most troubling part of the wife's behavior as far as OPEN may be concerned is the threat to their social monogamy (wonder what Mr. Ven would have to say about that). It's going to affect the way others in their new community view them if the wife continues to be so seemingly indiscreet (though she may be flying well under public radar) and that may be more upsetting to OPEN than the fact of all the sex she's having per se.

I also think that the "rejected half the time" line of thought is a red herring. We don't know how often the husband initiated. It could have been once a month, in which case they were hardly having sex at a 50% acceptance rate, or it could have been 5 times a week, and for a married couple, 2.5 times a week is actually pretty good. Whatever the case, people in marriages generally learn to accept that there will be times that their spouse will not be in the mood for sex for a variety of reasons.

And there is nothing in the letter to suggest they're not having frequent and fulfilling sex now.

I very firmly believe that they didn't really consider all the possible permutations and ramifications when they initially opened the marriage and they should have a big HONEST conversation now--and in the meantime, the wife should shut down the outside activity while they sort their feelings out.

Lastly, I didn't bring my personal life and former marriage into this (partly because my situation doesn't apply whatsoever), and I'd appreciate it if you would leave what you think you know of my own circumstances out of it. Not only do you have the situation wrong, but I think it was inappropriate for you to try and introduce my personal life when I hadn't done so. Thank you.

@146 in continuation: I think this: "Given that the mass response here was "The husband is a terrible terrible person, and ha ha he's miserable and it's his fault ha ha" coupled with "well, his wife is happy, so how can he possibly be complaining? It's not like he has his own feelings, amirite?" ...pushing back against sexist bullshit isn't attacking the wife." is a gross mis-representation of the tone and content of the comments on this thread. I can't find one shred of sexim, either. Not one "anti-all-men" comment. The only time the word "douchebag" was used was when I was putting it in the mouth of the best friend in an imagined and hypothetical conversation to counter the insistence that OPEN should have been enthusiastically included in their sex. Disclaimer: I have no way of knowing what the real wife's real best friend thinks of OPEN, who may not be a douchebag at all, but in fact a very nice man--whom the friend isn't attracted to.

My feeling is OPEN's wife is just getting it out of her system. She gained weight and felt less sexual; her husband got interested in someone else, and she gave him permission to explore it; she then lost the weight, felt sexier, and decided that she too would explore sexual relationships with other people. In a new town, where no one knows the old, fat her. OPEN needs to let her get it out of her system; he owes her a year of nonmonogamy, though they probably do want to discuss what each of them wants out of their open relationship. My instinct is that the novelty of slutting around will wear off and she'll settle down with one or two regular, but infrequent, partners -- so long as her husband supports her through this exciting phase of her life.

@148: First of all, I went back over the comments and very few of them were as you have characterized them--that is, as laughing at or attacking the man.

4, 8, 10, 13, 15, 18, 20, 21, 30 (bonus points for dishonestly denying it after the fact), 32, 33, 34, 49, 50, 53, 61, 69, 71, 74, 77, 84, 87, 92, 95, 98, 103, 116, 119, 124, 125, 126, 131, 133, 137, 138, and 141.

I think you and I have very different ideas of what "very few" means.

In fact, it's you and avast that introduce the hostile tone--and it's directed at the wife.

False; hostile tone pops up in post 4, and it's directed at the husband. Why did you write this?

Is it because hostility toward unhappy men is the water in which we swim, and is thus totally unremarkable to you?

Secondly, as to gender reversal: Go over to the Savage Love Letter of the Day on Monday called "Played Out," by the woman who signed herself CHEAT, and you'll find scores of ridicule and scorn being heaped on her from both men and women.

The two situations are in no way analogous.

I don't think this is a gender-divide thing as much as you do.

Sexists always think that; the man who hires a male applicant over a better-qualified female one doesn't think he's doing it just because of gender bias either, and he certainly won't admit it.

Old Crow said it early and accurately:

It seems to me that OPEN and his wife really did have different ideas about an open relationship: OPEN never wanted an open relationship at all - his wife did all along. People who really want open relationships do not respond to "let's open the relationship" with "why don't we try other solutions?" (especially considering that now that she is giving him as much sex as he wants he's no longer interested in outside sex.) OPEN only accepted the open relationship because his wife shot down his preferred alternatives, while pushing him to take an option that would put him in a position where he couldn't reasonably deny her what she wanted.

An open relationship was always what she wanted, and was never what he wanted. Why can none of the "it's the man's own fault" people acknowledge this fact?

For instance, you say "This isn't polyamory. And in any case, you don't criticize the OPEN for not including his wife in his affair."

OPEN did try to include his wife: his preferred option was to include her, and to not include the coworker. She vetoed that option. Please, for once, just one of you acknowledge this fact.

There previous state was "They have the kind of relationship she chooses." Their current state is "They have the kind of relationship she chooses." If you think that's what fairness looks like, you're a sexist.

I very firmly believe that they didn't really consider all the possible permutations and ramifications when they initially opened the marriage and they should have a big HONEST conversation now--and in the meantime, the wife should shut down the outside activity while they sort their feelings out.

I completely agree with this part. They should talk it to death. And if she plays the "You got to have fun on the outside (which was my preferred solution and not yours), so now I get to have lots of fun without you (which is my preferred solution and not yours)" game, he should get a divorce.

Not only do you have the situation wrong, but I think it was inappropriate for you to try and introduce my personal life when I hadn't done so.

I think it's inappropriate for you all to treat everyone male as inherently unworthy of empathy and unworthy of being treated like an equal partner. That doesn't seem to have stopped anyone.

Continuing this trend, you apparently think that you have a right not to have people say inappropriate shit to you, but that I don't. I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in granting you rights that you refuse to grant me.

LW - Dan's done a decent job, but the rest of SLOG has failed you. There's no taboo around here for stereotyping het men - in some people's minds it's called "feminism". So, you can pretty much count on people confusing you with other men who have nothing in common with you besides a cock that get's hard for women. Hell, you're even doing it to yourself.

Here's the deal. Feeling jealous doesn't make you an asshole. Not wanting an open relationship doesn't make you a dick. You are entitled to want what you want.

Stop being a martyr and tell your wife the truth - that you're unhappy with how things are right now. Don't tell her what you want her to do (let her figure that part out), and for christ's sake don't blame her, just focus on how the current situation makes you feel. And stop undermining yourself by apologizing for your feelings and referring to yourself as a "dick" or "asshole". Seriously, never do that ever again.

If she gives any kind of shit about you, and she's not crazy, she'll respond in a productive fashion.

@91: And suddenly all the asexual people feel a little more judged and a little less important.

Yeah, sorry about that. That was meant as a reference to Dan's "Oral sex comes standard" policy. In a sexual relationship, sex isn't something you should have to purchase with extra suffering. When LW is female, nobody forgets that rule.

@152: In the rest of SLOG's defense, there actually were a lot of commentors who didn't dive headfirst into sexist nonsense. They were just ignored.

Eudaemonic, my only disagreement with you is that you continue to ignore the fact he was already engaged in start of a sexual type affair with that coworker - even if it hadn't been consummated.

I realize I am very different than most of you on the SLOG. You all have very different views regarding sex and fidelity, etc.

However, if my husband found me having sexy texts with another man at work, our marriage would suffer a very serious blow. I've already have made the decision that if HE had a one night stand, I'd forgive and let go, but if he was involved in an emotional sexy time affair with his coworker, it'd be the end.

My long winded point being that where you don't consider his sexy texting an issue or give him a pass on that because he wasn't getting all the sex that he wanted, other people, including the LW's wife, might have considered that a tremendous blow, especially if she was already feeling ugly and unsexy.

I wish he'd not waited until he was caught texting his coworker to discuss spicing up the sex life. I'd feel more like you do.

At Sean. I think its perfectly acceptable for LW to decide he doesn't want an open relationship. He's not a jerk for so deciding. I don't consider my husband a jerk for so deciding (?!) But if he expects it to go well, he needs to speak honestly to the apparent double standard.

@109. No. Nonono. "Empathize" does not mean "make stuff up and empathize with that". Empathizing means just validating someone's feelings and commiserating with them. You don't need to make up pretend facts to justify your acceptance of someone else's pain. Not the least because YOU DON'T GET TO JUDGE SOMEONE ELSE'S PAIN!

I have no idea why you would need to spin a situation so much to be able to be ok with someone else's perspective on it, but it sounds incredibly judgmental and not empathetic at all. "I'd be ok with your emotions, but only if I add in a bunch of fiction to make you look better." Horrible.

I also note you threw in one of my posts that supposedly "attacked" the husband or "laughed" at him, 138. I admitted my bias, but your standard is painfully low if you believe criticizing the husband's decision making process equals attacking or laughing at him.

He wanted to do that coworker. Of course he did. He reached a compromise with his wife - that admittedly wasn't what he wanted exactly - but might not be what she wanted exactly as well. She only raised open marriage AFTER finding out he was unhappy enough to sexy-texty some coworker. I do not absolve him of his agency in this.

@157: A quote from 138:
You all want to spin jealousy as being "neglected emotionally" and it'd all be okay if she just had a three-some with him. I see his jealousy as the typical kind- I dont want my wife doing other men. Think he'd go for a mfm? Doubt it.

I do not absolve him of his agency in this.

That's my point. The sexist trope that men (and only men) have infinite agency is bullshit. He has very little agency in this, which is why people like you could stand to be a little less snide about the fact that he's had a series of shitty things happen to him.

For the record? If you say "I'd like to have more sex with you" to your spouse, and they say "nah, go elsewhere," that doesn't entitle them to go elsewhere.

Eudaemonic @151, I have no idea how you read my cited posts (15, 18, 50, 71, 84, 95, &103) and see me "laughing at or attacking the man," rather than offering my best advice given my own experiences navigating how to open our marriage. Feel free to email me at EricaPSavage@gmail.com if you care to explain how I'm misreading my posts.

@158 >> For the record? If you say "I'd like to have more sex with you" to your spouse, and they say "nah, go elsewhere," that doesn't entitle them to go elsewhere. >>

Exactly what I said you were saying, in my posts @95 & 103, when you said I was lying about your position.

Remember when they talked to death about opening the marriage? That was the time for OPEN to say "but you understand that you won't be entitled to have sex with anyone else, right?"

I think it has enough in common with polyamory to make reading the standard poly course material worthwhile and meeting some poly people to get their perspective.

He can’t unilaterally close the relationship and if he uses some form of threat to make her do what he wants, neither of them is going to be happy.

It’s perfectly normal for him to feel jealous. She had a year and lots of discussion to work through her feelings but he’s starting at the beginning. Maybe he needs a bit of time to learn to cope with jealousy. Maybe he needs to learn to identify his feelings in more detail. Maybe the relationship has run its course.

They definitely need to talk.

@151 (Eudaemonic): Me @148: "Not only do you have the situation wrong, but I think it was inappropriate for you to try and introduce my personal life when I hadn't done so."

You, in response @151: "I think it's inappropriate for you all to treat everyone male as inherently unworthy of empathy and unworthy of being treated like an equal partner. That doesn't seem to have stopped anyone.

Continuing this trend, you apparently think that you have a right not to have people say inappropriate shit to you, but that I don't. I'm sorry,but I'm not interested in granting you rights that you refuse to grant me."

This doesn't even make sense.

No one is treating every male as being "inherently unworthy of empathy and unworthy of being treated like an equal partner." No one. That's hyperbole, or as you would say, (because you have), "lying."

What "right" am I not granting you? I told you I thought it was inappropriate for you to bring up what you assume to have been similar in my marriage--and by the way, you're very, very wrong in your understanding of what happened and how I felt--but it's not up to me to grant you rights. You have the First Amendment right to ignore my wishes and talk about me any way you like--as you have.

And as for my not granting you rights, what rights am I not granting you? The right to speculate on my private life, even when I didn't introduce it into the discussion? No, I just said I didn't appreciate it. I can hardly forbid it. The right to insist that every woman here indulged in some sort of sexist hate-fest directed at OPEN? Well, okay, if that's how you interpret it.

Why are people assuming the wife is not interested in her husband? No where in the letter does OPEN say this. He just says he is insanely jealous about her outside marriage sexual behaviour. No where does he say he's lonely. Or that his wife is neglecting him or not having his socks washed or his dinner on the table at 6 pm sharp( that's for you dear SeanDr ; and yes, it's uncalled for).
And no one is saying ha ha. I'm not saying HaHa. I've reacted to his
Put down of her sexual choices. I've questioned his sense of fair play by suggesting he close down the open marriage. Hell, I like this man. I may even love him..

You know, Eudaemonic, I bend over backward to give people who write letters the benefit of the doubt, to really read closely the letter and try to approach their problems without bias, to apply the same standards to everyone, and especially to not fall back on sexism and misandry. Sometimes I fail, and sometimes I can get snide, but I do that rarely. Furthermore, I make it a point to practice self-reflection: if someone calls me on something, I go back and reread myself and others, and I have more than once apologized when I admit that I was wrong.

So for you to accuse me of practicing those things hurts and irritates me, because say what you will about me--I'm long-winded, I can be too formal in my style, whatever--I don't think you can honestly say I am a man-hater. Additionally, I don't read the posts you cited as mocking, belittling, and dismissing the lw in the same way as you did. But I'll note that there does seem to be a gender divide regarding who sees the comments as denigrating. You and avast2006, and to a lesser extent, seandr all see the majority of the comments as being vicious or mean-spirited. I note that there are men who don't align with you, so I don't think the gender division is uniform. But clearly this is stirring up other old resentments.

We all do this sometimes; we all project our own experiences and biases onto the letters occasionally. I don't think that this letter or these comments warrants the reaction it and they are getting. I read the same comments you read, but I read them differently. I read the same letter you read, but I read it differently. I guess there's no way we're going to reach agreement regarding the letter, but I would take the commentors at their words when they say that they weren't trying to ridicule or denigrate OPEN.

If you truly see that, then I suggest that the chip on your shoulder is affecting your ability to read accurately.

@160 "It’s perfectly normal for him to feel jealous."

Yes, and even if it weren't normal, he gets to have whatever feelings he has. And if it turns out that having an open marriage makes him unhappy, he gets to start a conversation about where they go from here.

I just don't recommend either of the options he's considering. I think he should start by laying out his feelings. And then they should talk and talk about what they each like about their marriage, and their sex life, and each other... and whether there's enough to all that to get them through together.

Funny.... last week the letters were in many ways more entertaining...but the comments section was rather empty.... This week... only two letters...somewhat similar in nature (fetish-wise.... ?) and the comments section blows up. First letter reads as an advertisement for Polly Superstar's parties. Second letter has so many holes in it (no pun intended) that we are left to make all kinds of assumptions. Bummer.

My first reaction was very similar to Old Crow (7)....

Funny how in most cases a man's self-esteem can be improved by getting laid.... and a women's can be undermined by it (if she herself feels unattractive). I would never accept an open relationship myself. But to each their own. Time for OPEN to take some responsibility for his current reality.

The unregistered poster @129 has relevant experience to share.

avast @130 “In terms of reopening negotiations, rather than just pulling the plug, he needs to figure out what sort of behavior on her part would make him feel like she was actually interested in him.”

Yes, and then let her know.

I never said the wife didn't have agency either, you know. But you've treated the husband, IMHO, as having something "shitty' done to him. As if the wife "did" this to him.

Why don't you go along with what I believe you posted way above - that they reached a compromise? I know you want to say it was "all wife's doing," but she raised it only after he started a relationship with a coworker. And she didn't renege on her part of the compromise. She let him have his affair, lost weight, got more sexy in bed with him and then indulged in her part of the agreement after a year.

If it was truly a compromise - and no I don't buy she's a puppet master or that she's had it all her own way, not in the face of a nacient affair - then they both have agency in this decision.

And I refuse to consider her bad or that she's treating him badly or that she doesn't care about him or his interests when she's merely going along with a deal they both struck.

He isn't a baby. He made the deal fair and square. Was it exactly what he wanted? Maybe not, but that doesn't mean he was forced into it or he had no other options. We all have responsibility for our actions and the deals we make. Often deals are not what we want. If it was, it wouldn't be called compromise. he could have entered sexual counseling with her. he could have worked with her on the fifty pounds rather than constantly focusing on sex. he could have divorced her. It wasn't like he wasn't getting any - merely not enough and not exotic enough.

I ultimately ended up cheating on my ex. Guess what, he was a jerk to me in many ways, but I had choices. I didn't have to cheat. I could have left him.

It might be a sexist trope to claim that men have "infinite agency" (which I did not claim, btw, or even imply), but its equally sexist to infantize them either.

He struck a deal. He needs to own that.

@165, I've been thinking a lot about LW1 (NNBS), as my husband's in a similar position ("very new to guys").

And I enjoyed Backyard Bombardier's related post this week @35 in the 1st bisexuality thread:
>> we grew up and lived our lives as straight men. We didn't attend to the other side of our sexuality, leaving it stunted and adolescent. And when one day we looked around and realized that being gay, that being attracted to men, maybe wasn't the worst thing one could be, we had no idea how to act on it. We were fumbling 12-year-olds in 45-year-old bodies >>

http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…

I wonder if instead of a cuddlr app, we need an app for middle-aged men who want to make out with other men as if they were teenagers.

E

"For the record? If you say "I'd like to have more sex with you" to your spouse, and they say "nah, go elsewhere," that doesn't entitle them to go elsewhere."

But, that was not the deal LW made. The deal LW made was that the marriage would open. He clearly acknowledges she was free to pursue open relationships as well.

____________________________________________________

From my limited experience and from what I've read and heard in places like this, opening a relationship is fraught and must be done carefully, exactly for this reason. And its been mishandled by LW and perhaps his wife.

Is it shitty for LW? Sounds like it hasn't worked out as he desired, because he isn't enjoying himself now, although apparently was content enough when he had someone on the side. But sometimes we make decisions that bring on shitty consequences.

LW would get no where with me by going back to his wife and saying "its your fault, i want this closed, i never would have done this if you'd only slept with me more or watched porn with me."

@151;
Husband was sprung after writing flirtatious texts( plural) to coworker by his wife. Why was he doing this? Sounds like, right there, he was opening the marriage up, just a crack, already.
He offers wife porn and sex toys. She declines and after much talking thru- an open marriage is suggested. If it was the wife's devious plan to have an open marriage, she sure waited long enough to act on it.
While in the meantime, OPEN, had someone in mind. Oh look, same woman he sent the flirtatious texts to.. For a man who , as you say, didn't want an open marriage- he sure seemed fine to go have one. BooHoo. A yr long relationship just had to be endured by this poor baby..

@160. Like it.

E, after sitting here and ruminating for a while, i will definitely agree with this.

If my spouse was uninterested in sex and unresponsive to my attempts to spice sex up.

If my spouse then recommended that we open the relationship.

And,

If my spouse proceeded to have red hot sex with others, but continued to remain dead and unresponsive to me.

I would be very hurt and likely would hand the spouse his walking papers.

So i do understand LW feeling hurt, if he sees it that way.

Dan, due to PISS' clever acronym you should say yes, but actually outsource this odious task to another fan, one who bottles it up & gets off on passing his piss off as Dan Savage's.

@167 (DarkHorseRising): "
He struck a deal. He needs to own that."

Seems to me that OPEN is owning that. It's Eudaemonic who's not.

LW OPEN; sorry, I have been shaking you up a bit. First off, though- please don't judge how your wife is behaving sexually. She's a grown woman, you both agreed to open the marriage.
As already suggested by posters above, sit with the jealousy for a bit. If, as has been suggested, you are feeling neglected by your wife- then tell her. Maybe ask her not to tell you about her amorous adventures.
Do you love your wife? Do you want to continue with the marriage?
Disclose your feelings,if you really need to , without blame. They are your feelings. How the two of you move forward, is of course, up to you and her.
Hope you guys can work it out.

Awesome thread. Can I add another perspective with some mild gender assumptions thrown in?

Imagine this hypothetical: Wife laments to husband how he is no longer romantic. He doesn't take her on dates, doesn't woo her, and when they do go out it is so predictable and he is too tired to really "be present." But he is working too much, too exhausted, to spent to be creative, to plan dates, to think up poems of love. So when he finds texts on his wife's phone from a co-worker talking about a great restaurant they would like to try, he tells his wife that he is fine opening the relationship because he feels bad he doesn't have the emotional energy to devote to her. His wife and her co-worker go on dates, have sex, etc. but do it in a low key way. He remains drained and doesn't explore his option to date others.

A year later, husband gets relocated to NYC. New job pays triple, lots of free time. He feels energized! With all the money he is making, he is also attracting more female attention. Since he is in an open relationship, he is taking his new dates - 4 different younger attractive women in two months - to the best restaurants, front row at the Met, nights at the St. Regis and all night sex in the suite at the Gansovoort. Sure, he also takes the wife on date nights (and better date nights than when he was working so hard and too tired to talk) but those date nights seem a lot more reserved than the crazy VIP experiences he is having with his young hot new girlfriends.

So would it be fair for his wife to shut this down? After all, she was the one who got the open relationship first, even if it was his idea.

That is pretty much the equivalent of a man not having threesomes when his wife is.

@163: I note that there are men who don't align with you, so I don't think the gender division is uniform. But clearly this is stirring up other old resentments.

Yes. We live in a culture where it's near-universally believed that any man who's unhappy in a relationship is scum, and his misfortune is to be mocked and denigrated. The fact that some men also agree with this changes nothing; you're trying to use evidence that sexist attitudes are common as evidence for them not existing. That's not going to work.

Look, I know there are other men who agree that men just deserve shit like this. Their existence does not actually make me deserve it, and their existence doesn't make me think I deserve it, either. Their existence only means that sexism is common.

Additionally, I don't read the posts you cited as mocking, belittling, and dismissing the lw in the same way as you did.

Here is LavaGirl talking about a guy who got screwed over through no fault of his own:
"For a man who , as you say, didn't want an open marriage- he sure seemed fine to go have one. BooHoo. A yr long relationship just had to be endured by this poor baby.."

This isn't in any way uncharacteristic of the rest of the thread, which is full of this kind of bullshit that you won't admit is mocking or belittling. What would it fucking take?

Is there any amount of mocking or belittling or denigrating that would be enough for you to admit that it's happening?

@174: Is there any point at which you're going to acknowledge that this isn't the deal he made or wanted?

He made a deal that, in lieu of the sex he wanted from his wife, he'd get it from somewhere else. In exchange for not having to deal with his libido, she agreed to put up with him having a partner on the side.

Now, you think he's obligated to put up with her having many partners on the side, in exchange for exactly nothing. When asked what he's getting in exchange, you dismisses him as a person entirely.

The group of you seem to be sticking to the idea that he, for some mysterious reason, has forfeited his chance to get a say in how their relationship is conducted. Tellingly, this mysterious reason applies to every male LW and never to a female one.

It's not because he made a deal, because this is not the deal he made. They had a deal, but it changed, and he didn't get a say in how it changed, and it went from an egalitarian deal (in which they both got some of what they want) to an entirely one-sided one. And now he has all of you people acting like his only option is to suffer manfully.

Would you want that deal? Would you want your partner to change the terms of your relationship, unilaterally, and to have everyone insist that no, this was actually the deal you made all along, when it wasn't?

Gaslighting: I guess it's a way of life for you people. What you don't seem to realize is that it only works on people who trust you, and not on people who can scroll up and see that you're lying.

Yes, I have a chip on my shoulder. If I'd just spent a day or two announcing that I thought you were inherently subhuman, and getting lots of support, you'd probably have a chip on your shoulder against me, too. Guess why.

Ah, But is there love still between Husband @ Wife ,Tim?
No- I don't think the wife should shut it down. They both opened the marriage.
However, as the wife , assuming finances were shared- I'd be a bit pissed at the expense going into this story.
I have no idea how people navigate open relationships. Esp with children involved. Sounds way too dangerous to me. Being of an older generation, it was not something going on, at least not in my neighbourhood.

@148: Speaking of reading again with a fresh eye, I would suggest that you do the same with my posts. I'm not hostile to the wife, and I'm not saying the wife necessarily wronged him by sleeping with a bunch of others. I am merely saying that from his perspective he went from Situation A: a wife who claimed that she had so little libido that not only did she apparently not want him very much, she didn't even want to work on improving that problem; to Situation B: a wife with so much libido that, while she wants him somewhat better than she did, she also apparently wants others to a degree that, to him, appears to put her enthusiasm for him as less than her enthusiasm for others. I'm not surprised he would feel pretty damned bad about that, and I am not blaming him, either.

I might go so far as to say she went kind of overboard, what with the newness of it all and the excitement. I might even say she was perhaps cluelessly insensitive to him in the way she went about it, considering their history. And I definitely would tend to agree with Dan that part of what he is feeling may be (actual or anticipated) public humiliation because his wife is sleeping around on him in a not very discreet fashion.

Finally I would suggest that the two of them need to work on rebalancing that perception on his part. Otherwise, over time his resentment over feeling second best in his own wife's desires is going to grow to the point where it destroys their marriage.

If that constitutes hostility, so be it.

@177; " a guy who got screwed over thru no fault of his own?"
How has this guy got screwed over? I just don't see it..
Yes, I was being a bit over the top, and I have apologised to OPEN.
The facts: as presented- shows no man screwed over, to me. Sex in marriages, can get a bit bland, no? How would sex toys @ porn really change that.
Why not go on a holiday. Why not hire a girl( or guy), to come into the marriage and give it a little kick start? A lotta ways OPEN could have dealt with his dissatisfaction with what was going on
No, he starts up a sex- ting ( and I'm betting that's what it was), story with a co worker..

@177: "Now, you think he's obligated to put up with her having many partners on the side, in exchange for exactly nothing."

I think that "exactly nothing" is an overstatement. Presumably he values the "more and better" sex that he is now getting, considering that he valued it pretty highly back when he wasn't getting it.

That said, however, I agree that there is an awful lot of "aw, poor baby" going on in the thread, and a good deal of it is unjustified.

Tim @ 176, your example sounds so much a huge fantasy that it's not really worth thinking about what would happen if that did occur! The guy goes to NYC, is paid triple but works much less time, front row at the Met with young attractive women in his spare time. Maybe a slightly less unlikely scenario would be easier to consider? I do see the point you are making but really, maybe it could be dialled back a bit.

For what it's worth, I do feel for this guy and the situation he's ended up in. But if I found my husband was exchanging flirtatious texts with a co-worker it would be a huge deal for me and, like DarkHorseRising, it would be a severe blow to our 20-year marriage. They really need to talk for days on end about what they both want.

Ms Phile - Thank you for trying, but the apology is only half there.

Ms Erica - Well pointed out that feelings don't have to be normal or correct.

Ms Cute - As far as the first letter goes, leading with awkwardness and naivete is fine. I'd add to be in the moment and save either comparison or contrast for afterwards.

Mr Horton - Interesting difference from the letter, in which the marriage improved and the weight was lost before the move.

@177, 181: "Now, you think he's obligated to put up with her having many partners on the side, in exchange for exactly nothing."

I'd go one further and say he *did* get something in exchange - a year-long extramarital relationship with a coworker.

Again, I'd like to reiterate that they're probably both hurting in various ways and need to actually sync up and figure out mutually agreed-upon expectations for what this open relationship looks like... Or I'm just a man-hating misandrist. Apparently it's all the same to some commenters here.

@177; " this is not the deal HE made".. Shouldn't it be the
"The deal THEY made"?
By the sound of it, no deal was made- except to open the relationship. Doesn't sound like ground rules were put in place, at all.
Yes, I have mocked OPEN, because I experience the whole tone of his letter as sexist.
He was the one cheating first. Thru text. " He still found his wife sexually attractive", even though she was overweight. How condescending of him. No word of love, but attractive.. Where was his care to help her loose weight? Face whatever was going on for her? Nowhere I can see . Oh. Porn and sex toys. And the sex texts? They would have just stopped.. They never should have started.
Now, now- after she lost this weight (And good on her for managing this, while OPEN was having his relationship), and their sex got better- she is enjoying this open marriage, they both agreed to.
How she is enjoying it, is not up to OPENs standards? It is her sexuality. Another example of OPENs sexism. He can't tell her how she is going to play. No ground rules were set up.

@185: "He can't tell her how she is going to play. No ground rules were set up."

Stunningly naive of you, LG. That is exactly how divorces happen.

There is no such thing as not getting a say. If nothing else, and if you drive them to it with sufficient intransigence, the other person always, Always, ALWAYS gets to say "Goodbye." Either take your partner's feelings into consideration, or find yourself without one.

@176 Tim - I don't see why OPEN can't invite another guy to the marital bed. Seems like his wife wouldn't have a problem with it. I like your analogy until you assume that racy dates are not possible between them. If you think a threesome is by definition so awesome then I think you are repressing the urge to purchase one! Do it!

@183 "Ms Phile - Thank you for trying, but the apology is only half there."
Welcome, but what ideal were you expecting? Is the other half you mention the lopsidedness of a bi threesome? Glad you noticed I channeled my inner Ven!

@152 " And stop undermining yourself by apologizing for your feelings and referring to yourself as a "dick" or "asshole". Seriously, never do that ever again."
Why do you say this? I call myself an asshole when I do/want to do asshole things because I'm being emotional or irrational. I thought it was an impressive piece of self awareness from OPEN that he knew that he was starting to sound hypocritical or controlling "she can't have other sex now cause I feel bad". Dan gave him some great advice to act in less hypocritical ways.

I did think that she handled her jealousy better than he's doing, it may have contributed to her losing weight (either so he would cheat less, or she had more opportunity, unclear). He could use his jealousy as encouragement to make himself more attractive too.

I have the perfect solution for OPEN, but it only works for spherical humans in a vacuum. Dammit I guess he's still left with renegotiating or leaving.

He did want the deal, Eud. Why can't you see that?

HE started flirty texts with a coworker because he wasn't getting enough sex or more than vanilla sex from wife.

[he's lucky he's married to her. I'd be over striking deals if that was my husband's reaction]

He and his wife then enter negotiations to address the lack in the relationship. He offers sex toys and porn.

[Wouldn't do anything for me BTW, now some naughty porn stories would seriously help]

She doesn't go for that offer and brings a counter offer: open the relationship....

Now wait for it.... he agrees! Now he could make a counter offer, or demand sex counseling, or state that he couldn't deal with the jealousy. No, he takes her up on her offer... of his free will.

Is it exactly what he wants? Apparently no, but its the best resolution that THEY can compromise on. Marriage being a compromise and all that.

And then he proceeds to consummate the deal... with the coworker... for a year. And doesn't worry his little head about her feelings.... or whether she's part of it. Doesn't ask her to join... or maybe she doesn't want to do so. But off he goes. She doesn't. She does get in shape.

AND, bonus, what one of the big side effects of opening a relationship, as reported by many, the sex is totally kicked up a notch.

Now though, they've moved somewhere new. He doesn't have a squeeze. She's finally consummating her part of the bargain. He's unhappy. Where was he during that year, when the sex was kicking up? Enjoying his two ladies. Fine.

He knows he's wanting to renege on a deal honestly and validly struck. Its clear from this letter. Yet, you are still somehow out to make him to be a victim being treated shitty by his wife.

I refuse to treat him as anything but a fully actualized and adult person, able to validly enter an agreement without being brow beaten. I refuse to treat her as a harpy or somehow taking advantage of him. She didn't raise the subject until after receiving the gut punch that her husband was flirty flirty with some other woman.

@186; if OPEN goes for divorce, then that's how he resolves the situation.
Doesn't sound to me, like he is thinking that way. Though, one gets the feeling not much thinking has gone into this open story.
If I was his wife, I would listen to his feelings of jealousy. It might be the start of a real conversation .. Do they still have love for each other? To me, that's at the heart of this scenario. It all sounds very ad hoc, not a whole lot of care. Maybe this phase of their lives will inform a much clearer way forward.
Either together or apart.

Sorry Tim Horton, I very stupidly misread your comment while at work on Friday morning and no coffee yet. Are threesomes really that appealing? I always think the potential options of what to put where are just too much trouble for me, which is why I've never done it...

@177 (Eudaemonic): @148 I said: "I went back over the comments and very few of them were as you have characterized them--that is, as laughing at or attacking the man. I can find only two commentors that do anything like that." That means that yes, I am aware that one or two people made the kind of sneering comments you are offended by (although I don't think they were anti-men comments in general; they were anti-OPEN comments). Yes, you pointed to the one person I said could be fairly accused of mocking and belittling. But not all of us were; almost no one else was. And no one was unilaterally mocking and belittling all men--least of all me. That's what I'm responding to. Your beef is with people who tar all men with the same brush, which you then turn around and do yourself. If you take all the comments by that particular commentor out of the equation, you will be hard-pressed to find many that are truly mocking or belittling. You might find a bunch of people who don't think that OPEN is handling things well, but it's a far cry from that attitude to your statement that the whole rest of the thread is : " full of this kind of bullshit that you won't admit is mocking or belittling. What would it fucking take?"

I could ask you the same question: what will it take for you to treat the commentors who don't treat OPEN as a poor victim as some sort of lynch mob? What will it take for you to distinguish us from one another? What amount of responsibility for his own unhappiness are you willing to grant OPEN? What will it take for you to acknowledge that he got something positive from permission to have his year-long affair with the woman he was already flirting with before this discussion occurred (and which flirtation occasioned the discussion to open the marriage in the first place)? What amount of satisfaction are you willing to grant him because of his increased sex life with his wife?

If you were my student, I would say that there wasn't enough textual evidence to support your interpretation. That is, that whatever the reality is/was, there is simply not enough information in the letter as written to support claims that OPEN didn't really want to have an affair with his flirty coworker, that that was a second-best option when what he only wanted was more sex with his withholding, rejecting wife. He may have felt that way and he may not--but we can't tell from the letter.

I would also remind you that he wrote the letter. People who complain of poor treatment from their spouses generally try to portray themselves as blameless as possible. He's not even complaining, really. But I think that he may be trying to gloss over the fact that he had entered into a clandestine flirtation with a coworker--a flirtation that was obviously not benign, as once given the go-ahead they embarked on an affair which only ended when he and his wife moved--by telling us that his wife wasn't giving him all the sex he wanted. And still, he isn't saying she denied sex completely. He just didn't get all he wanted. His I-tried-to-suggest-we-use-porn-and-toys as a "solution" to her lower-than-he-wanted libido rings fairly absurd and hollow to me ("I'm sorry honey; I'm just not in the mood for sex." "Here: let's watch some porn--will that do it?"), but I'm willing to suspend my disbelief. Maybe there are lots of women who would have their flagging libidos restored through porn and toys. I just found that remark self-serving and it sounded like an excuse (I tried everything but she insisted that I have an affair and finally I gave in). I find it interesting that you accept this part of the letter without question but are willing to attribute premeditated double-dealings to the wife.

@avast2006 @148: You're right. I still believe that in your earlier posts (specifically #16) you're harsher to the wife than I think is warranted, but really Eudaemonic is the person whose point of view I'm responding to.

@Philophile: I thought it was an impressive piece of self awareness

Calling oneself an asshole for feeling jealous or angry or unhappy or not wanting one's wife to fuck other men is an impressive piece of self-negation, not self-awareness.

It's OK for LW to feel bad and to share those feelings. Women for the most part seem to get this. A lot of good men don't, our LW included. They feel like they need to "man up" and be the hero and fight their feelings back, and they end up miserable with all that shit leaking out in indirect ways that ultimately cause more problems and more bad feelings.

You'll hear me say this a lot. I wish someone had taught me this at 28.

@177 "He made a deal that, in lieu of the sex he wanted from his wife, he'd get it from somewhere else. In exchange for not having to deal with his libido, she agreed to put up with him having a partner on the side."

That's how you describe their deal. But OPEN says they decided (not she decided) they would try an open relationship. He says she didn't have sex partners at first (acknowledging that she had the right to), and now he talks of closing the marriage, but doesn't accuse her of infidelity. OPEN agreed to her having outside sex. Maybe that wasn't the best deal he could have negotiated at the time, but it's the one he agreed to back then.

"The group of you seem to be sticking to the idea that he, for some mysterious reason, has forfeited his chance to get a say in how their relationship is conducted."

Actually, we've said repeatedly that he gets to talk about what he wants now, and propose changes to the deal. See (just scanning quickly) 8, 18, 20 24 34 49, 51 52 57 113 114 120 124 133 148 160 164 182

@192 Interesting, I took it to mean that he felt bad for what he was thinking of doing, for the potential asshole proposal, not because of his feelings. Feelings are a pain in the ass sometimes. I've wished to be a robot, a lot when I was going through puberty. But I generally enjoy being human/emotional.

@190 "I always think the potential options of what to put where are just too much trouble for me, which is why I've never done it..."
I think Tim knows exactly what he wants to put where and how but can't negotiate it. But he could buy it! I think he should, it sounds important to him.

Yeah, and i want a direct answer on this...

What is this nonsense that he received "nothing" for his end of the bargain.

He wanted to do that coworker. Otherwise, the sexy-texty stuff wouldn't be there and he wouldn't have made a direct beeline for the coworker once the deal was struck. For. A. Year.

And apparently, his wife said not a word.

But apparently SHE's getting it all? Because she's had a three-some. Please.

@ 195, I think you're right and if he does decide to purchase it, I hope he doesn't go about it like this poor guy:
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
I really felt for him!

@188: You can still cheat in a polyamourous relationship. Because his wife CHOSE to have him fulfill his sexual needs with someone else DOES NOT imply carte blanche for her to do whatever she wants with whomever she wants for however long she wants. What you describe is a very selfish, unethical, and destructive way to do polyamoury. I don't necessarily think that's what she's doing, but that IS what you describe.

Even if he DID explicitly agree that opening their marriage meant that they could sleep with anyone else without checking in and making sure their marriage and both of their feelings were protected, if, after the fact he finds he is unable to cope with that, he is not STUCK with the deal. It can be renegotiated.

"You said yes before, so you can't back out now" is not a valid argument. In most sexual situations, that would be called "rape".

@190 - a threesome with two women is pretty high up on the holy grail for some men. I put myself in there. I've had some non-sexual experiences in life that others would think are pretty elusive that I take for granted now, so I can understand how the kinky echo chamber here wouldn't see the wife having a threesome as a nuclear blow to the marriage that jumped out to me when I read it.

Although I have never been in an open marriage, I would think it is OpenMarriage 101 that you shouldn't be having experiences with your FWB that you aren't either able or willing to have with your primary, assuming your primary wants to do the same. Be it threesomes or front row tickets to the Met.

It's only my POV, but - continuing my analogy - it would be like a couple opening up the marriage: she goes on a date to the Olive Garden. He flies on his younger, prettier girlfriend's private jet to St. Tropez for the weekend. Even if the open marriage came at her suggestion, and even if they both agreed to open the marriage, the degree of adventure is totally asymmetrical and is bound to cause some jealousy and resentment. Dare I say the wife in the letter has to be pretty dense not to believe her husband was going to have trouble handling the fact she is sleeping with multiple people, sometimes at the same time.

BusyQuilting; I've had some great threesome fantasies.
FMF.. Though seeing a couple of guys fucking could be interesting. It's amazing how, having no sex, has just loosened my mind up. I'm a good 20 yrs younger in these fantasies.

@196: "Yeah, and i want a direct answer on this...

What is this nonsense that he received "nothing" for his end of the bargain."

He's getting nothing now. They both got something before.

"He wanted to do that coworker. Otherwise, the sexy-texty stuff wouldn't be there"

Another "just no" situation. Flirting != intent to have sex. Most enlightened people would never dare to make that assumption about a woman, as that would be perpetuating rape culture, but make it a man and it becomes a-ok.

"and he wouldn't have made a direct beeline for the coworker once the deal was struck. For. A. Year."

1. "direct beeline" is your interpretation. Perhaps his wife suggested her. Perhaps she actually negotiated that he would only sleep with her so that he would only be involved with one other person. PERHAPS we have NO IDEA the nature of that relationship or how it started and the blitheness with which people are willing to insert their own narratives that just happen to reinforce our society's standard "men are pigs that just want sex" narrative is what Eud's all worked up about, not the letter itself.

2. I've pointed out this before, but if he had the same absolute, unrestricted freedom that she's taking now, what should stick out is not that they were together "For. A. Year" but that it was "Just. One. Person." If you're going to infer something on his behalf, infer that he's either monogamish or poly-fidelitous who prefers emotional interconnectedness over sexual exploit or that he didn't think their agreement allowed for unmitigated promiscuity.

"And apparently, his wife said not a word."

And here it is again. Rewriting/re-emphasizing what is in the letter in a way that just happens to support a "he's a pig that wanted to sleep around and she, the dutiful, obedient wife, just kept quiet about it" interpretation. You took a letter that specifically contradicts that narrative and twisted into something that perfectly suits it. THIS is the mysandry being expressed by responders here. Almost never openly or explicitly, but time after time people come in with a misinterpretation that removes all dissonance with the culturally-mandated assumptions about male character.

She CHOSE the open relationship. He OFFERED her other choices that involved her (toys) or could be done by himself (porn). And yet, suddenly SHE is the one who "never said a word".

"But apparently SHE's getting it all? Because she's had a three-some. Please."

Multiple threesomes. As well as 2+ other lovers. In four months. He had one lover in over a year, and at her behest.

Once again, if it was a husband who was refusing sex for physical reasons (usually ED in men) and she had, at his prompting, a relationship with only one man for a year, and then when he got over his problem, he started having threesomes WITHOUT HER and had multiple other partners aside from that in four months, and she was feeling jealous and abandoned, he would be LYNCHED for being such a selfish pig and so blind to her needs.

They'd still be as wrong to accuse him as I think it is here to accuse her of wrong-doing, but they would also be right to say that he should slow down or even stop until he can at least discuss her hurt feelings.