Savage Love

Rings & Things

Comments

1
The last time I heard a medical specialist discuss fecal transfusion on the radio was quite a while ago. The details are quite foggy, but as I recall, the best poop donor candidates were family members. Also, this is a substance that you really don't want pasteurized. What would be the point? This is something that you would want in all it's smelly, fecund glory. I think however that accomplishing this procedure via anal toys shared with close relatives is probably the deal breaker for most folks.
2
SOUND sounds like a thoughtful fellow. Heaven knows those old neighbors will probably be deeply offended by the sound of sexual intercourse.
3
My question for WTF: Truly--WTF? I'm with Dan, who once again hits a direct bullseye: Yahtzee. Score!



SOUND: Another good pointer from Dan that I agree with, being a renter myself: if the neighbors aren't complaining and haven't, don't fret about it.As a musician, I share your concerns about making noise. Luckily, most neighbors and my landlady included seem to like what I play and compose.



Fecal transplants?!? JUST when I thought I could go soundly to sleep after the previous SL column about decapitated snake heads! Yuuuuuuuuuuuck!


4
@3: Sorry about the big gaps in paragraphs! My computer? Too many hits on the spacebar?
5
Ahhhhhhhh----okay. I get it now. Decapitated snake heads and fecal transplants---just in time for Hallowe'en!
Good ones, Dan!
6
Maybe there's more between the lines on WTF's letter. She says she feels overwhelmed, and has problems with him staring at other women in front of her...it's possible that he is making her feel that way, and she didn't fully articulate that. In which case the husband should probably stop and think about how rare a partner who wants sex sometimes multiple times in a day is. If not, I think Dan's advice was spot on, but it just felt like there was something missing in that letter.
7
WTF; yes, ones partner staring at other women in ones company is distressing and a bit of a power play..
Masturbates and you guys have sex maybe a couple of times a day, you are young, I'm guessing? And the problem with a little heat in the bedroom is?
Overwhelmed by what? Maybe just tell him these feelings
(which you are allowed to have), and suggest a slightly slower pace from him.
Source some ethical porn( as in stuff where the woman's pleasure is being looked after), sexy lingerie and toys- sounds like you've got a hot for you husband... Enjoy.
8
SOUND; until they complain assume they are enjoying the show.. Memories.
9
I disagree about the advice to SOUND. A lot of people won't complain unless the problem is really extreme, but would still appreciate less noise. I'd say see what you can do about sound-dampening in your dwelling. If you don't have carpeting, rugs help. Things on the walls like bookcases or tapestries can also help. Make sure windows are closed. And make sure the bedroom door is closed so the sound is mostly an issue for the room directly against yours, above yours, and below yours, rather than potentially for a wider group of people. You don't need to panic and totally change your lifestyle to try to take some steps to make it less likely to wake anyone up or irritate someone. Also, taking some proactive steps will decrease the odds of ever getting a noise complaint. Whereas, once you have one, it will be difficult to know whether such minor steps will be sufficient.
10
Do we know that TOLD is married to a guy? I read him as bisexual, married to a woman but looking for men on the side.

It seems to me that TOLD should find out what his spouse thinks about the whole removing-the-ring thing, rather than what Dan thinks.

And then TOLD would probably do better by finding some clubs or classes he actually enjoys; spending time getting to know the other people; and letting word get out that they have an open marriage.
11
Actually, do we even know TOLD is in an open marriage? What does "openish" mean? Is that like DADT?
12
Higher-libido-than-previous-partners or not, WTF doesn't sound near as sex-positive as she lets on.

She got mad at him for staring at women (I suspect that in her case that really means more like being caught looking at all); she didn't like toys, or porn, or lingerie; and now she is mad at him for masturbating on top of the once a day sex (that he otherwise would be bothering her for).
13
@7: Did you seriously just suggest that she gets to tell him how often he's allowed to masturbate? That's what I interpreted "a slower pace" to mean.

No. Just No.

Also, I hope your suggestion about the ethical porn was in hopes that _she_ might learn to like it and share with him. Not that she gets to approve the content of a fantasy life that she has already declined to participate in. That would be seriously fucked up.
14
Jesus Avast, of course not.. I meant in the sex and extras between them. If she is feeling overwhelmed, he may just be behaving in an overwhelming way.. If he paces himself a bit, makes the experience sexier..
15
Ethical porn that they both can enjoy.. Not the slam bam sort.
WTF is asking for help, I do agree ones spouse staring at other women in ones company makes one uncomfortable. Noticing is not staring.
I have no opinion( yet ), re her statements re she's used to being the one with a higher sex drive or whatever- that just seems a weird point to even make.
I can relate to feeling overwhelmed by a Mans demands- hence my suggestion to talk over her feelings with him. Not to close down the heat, but slow it down a bit..
16
And I don't read that she's not participating with him, she feels a bit overwhelmed ..
He sounds like a very hot husband to have- I'm encouraging her to partake of that hotness..
17
OK. Just different interpretations. She seems to me to be pissed off chiefly at the fact that he dares to masturbate a bunch -- at least, that is what I interpret her use of the word "admitted" he masturbates, as if that is something bad that he confessed -- on top of the sex they are already having.

I'm wondering, what extras? As far as I can tell from her wording, previously she was the one who shot down lingerie, the one who shot down toys, and the one who shot down porn. What's left is sex and masturbation, and she apparently isn't complaining about the sex. So that leaves the masturbation as the one thing left to shoot down -- as well as it being the thing that currently shocked her enough to complain to Dan about, as far as I can tell -- and that would be way out of line for her to try.
18
" Noticing is not staring."

I fully agree, but one person's notice is another person's ogle, and given the consistency of her apparent reactions, I would place her nearer the "that was an ogle, dammit" end of the spectrum.
19
FYI: fecal transplants are done in the small intestine not the large, so unless thats a disturbingly long toy there is no way that would work.
20
No; I don't read she has shot it down, I read she feels overwhelmed.
So, how to work with that feeling and find a way to join him. Is she overwhelmed because it confronts her self image as being hitherto, the more assertive sexual animal? If so- she needs to work on that. And be thankful her Man is hot for her.
Not sure why him masturbating a couple of times a day is a problem for her. I'm not a Man, don't know those needs- esp if one is youngish. Dan telling her not to make this about pathology sounds like good advice.
Is she overwhelmed because his behaviour is overwhelming. Is he pushy rather than seductive...
21
Oh KID, In your mind, be a 9-year-old seduced by a gorgeous man in his 30s without shame or guilt. There's so much worse you could be fantasizing about.
But Dan's right: take your time and suss out how you think this fantasy will be received before you share it with a partner. Make sure to establish your normalcy first.
22
I feel for WTF. My husband and I have sex 1-2 times a day, and I still felt insecure about his masturbating. It's hard not to feel conditioned like we have to meet all of our partners' needs and that masturbation means that we haven't, despite it sometimes just being an expediency / mind-clearing / can't-fall-asleep-otherwise thing. He and I have discussed it openly - and extensively - and I know that this is *my* issue to solve. My insecurity and my need to not "miss out" on anything is the problem, not the masturbation.

Have a frank, open discussion about it, if you can - but don't ask him not to masturbate.
23
Dan, the reason they invented the frozen poop pill, which was carefully engineered to preserve the filthy bacteria and not to release its contents until it reaches the intestines, is because people are generally reluctant to have the "medicine" shoved up their ass.
24
What the fuck is wrong with frequent masturbation, staring at a hot ass walking down the street, watching porn with your lover, dressing her up in lingerie, and using sex toys?

If those things are wrong, then my entire life is wrong.
26
@LavaGirl: staring at other women in ones company is distressing and a bit of a power play

Power play? No, babe, it's more of a reflex, and the only power it affords is the ability to annoy one's wife.
27
I like your advice to SICK: "wash toys with hot water and soap before reuse." But you have to be careful how you do this. A friend of mine put multiple dildos into her dishwasher (for hotter water than her hands could take in the sink). Unfortunately, she forgot about them until a few days later when her mother came to visit, went to the dishwasher for a clean coffee mug coffee and found a bunch of dildos in a variety of sizes and colors. Mom's reaction was heard at some distance!
28


TOLD- I suspect some certified-organic gay men may find it sexy knowing you are married, but being trans can be a different issue. And just so you know, straight guys into lingerie may actually accept you. They may be harder to find and they may ask you to treat them as a lady, which may or may not work for you.



WTF- get over it. Almost everyone masturbates, your former bf’s as well as the vast majority of your male and female co-workers. You’re still great for allowing your husband to do all the other stuff you mentioned nevertheless. And consider yourself extremely lucky to have your needs met despite him also doing it on his own. Ask him to show you some times how he does it. I suspect he will shoot few inches further away while you get some extra clues as how to do him better next time



SOUND- I suspect some of your past, present, and possibly future neighbors may actually get a kick out of hearing you two doing the hokey pokey. If they smile once they see you by the mailboxes it’s a good sign, and if they tell you you’re being too loud you know they are not. No need to take any further action.
29
auntie grizelda @3- poop pills seem to be much better then the current treatment, liquid shit inserted by tube through the nose. (Yes, I also read the New York Times report.) There may be an initial mental problem, as well as the drug companies pushing their own pricy chemical shit on all of us, but most times organic matters and garlic do much better then antibiotics. Not to mention their much lower cost.
30
Eugene:

Nooooo!

Fecal transplants into the small intestine would lead to severe bacterial overgrowth in a compartment where bacteria exist, but in comparably small numbers.

Fecal transplants can be administered to the cecum or the proximal colon.



@Dan:

The straining of the fecal sample ist to remove larger particles, such as undigested maize kernels. All the bacteria (which might lead to infection) stay in it. However, the fecal sample gets analysed for pathogenic bacteria.
31
KID: I'm not sure how exactly your fantasy plays out in your head, but pretty much every dude in the world is into the whole "innocent girl in pigtails discovers her lust for cock" scenario, so just roll with that in the beginning.

Maybe make some naive remarks, like "Gee, you sure are fun to play with" and "Wow, you sure do have a fat one" and "Are you sure it's OK for me to lick it?" and "Well, OK, if you say so, but I don't see how it's going to fit in there."

I don't see any reason to mention the nine year old thing until you really know the guy.
32
I like "openish" WAY better than "monogamish." Just saying.
33
I don't understand why WTF is writing about the current problem if she's dealt with the past ones she mentioned. Enthusiasm and positivity with sex is great, but enthusiasm in different directions can easily be problematic. I wonder if their compromise is working for them both. I can only imagine that she either isn't really getting her sexual needs met or she's worried that he'll want to cheat. If the former, she could speak up about her needs and risk rocking the boat to patch that fatal hole in the hull. What exactly does she need more or less of and negotiate. If the latter, she could remind herself of the ways her husband shows his good character and trustworthiness, and have an idea of her response should he cheat. I can't see another reason she'd be worried about his higher libido or different tastes.
34
SeanDr;Babe, I can understand Men looking at a passing hot Woman as I can understand a Woman looking at a passing hot Man, while in the company of ones spouse.
Staring or making some cutesy eye contact is very uncomfortable making for said spouse- IMOWIATFIG.
( In My Opinion Which Is All The Fuck I've Got).
35
@30: "(S)training of the fecal sample... to remove larger particles." That sounds like something you'd find in a summer intern's job description.
36
@31; SeanDr.. Ew! Hope every Man on the planet is not into a fantasy involving a nine yr old in pigtails? A 15-16 yr old maybe.
The old Lolita scenario. But 9. A little creepy..
37
SOUND is probably fine.

It seems to me that neighbors with kids would be more likely to complain.
Heck - maybe they can't even hear the ruckus after they take their hearing aids out.

Watch out for visiting Grandkids and you should be good.
38
WTF - If your husband's still up for sex with you when you want it, it's not even a thing.

Is he into you?
Yes.

Is his fantasy life hampering his desire for you?
Apparently not.

Some people just need/want more of a release than others to feel centered.

My husband and I have a fairly active sex life (for people with 3 kids under 10), and I know that sometimes he takes care of business when I don't join him in the shower. For that matter, sometimes I do the same when I'm particularly stressed or headachey and a liaison isn't in the cards (three kids) and/or I just want to get a quick flood of feel-good without attending to another's needs.

Allow each other space to be, and don't let insecurity get stirred up without reason.
39
"ones partner staring at other women in ones company is distressing and a bit of a power play"



That's monogamy-centric.



In strict or serial monogamy, outside sex is supposed to end the relationship, whereas in monogamishamy or polyamory, outside sex is no threat. So then looking or ogling at other persons is absolutely not distressing nor a power play - and both can look and share their apreciation of the "other women" (or men, or any genre).
40
So, the multi blank lines curse is still on ?
41
Looking at another should fall under the "I'm married, not dead." reaction. But we don't know how he goes about it. Perhaps he is totally obvious about it, which can be insulting. All she's asking for is some discretion on his part. Fair enough. But no toys? No lingerie? Which she describes as problems. This is not defining GGG.

Aah, sex multiple times a day, I remember that. That was nice.
42
I think the the primary thing going on in WTF's letter is a concern that she's not enough to satisfy her husband. I don't think she's trying to control him or his masturbation. If she's used to being the higher libio-haver in a relationship, she's probably also used to being seen and thinking of herself as bringing enough sexiness to completely satisfy her partner. Now she has what seems to her like evidence that she may not be enough. And she loves this guy and wants to be enough and worries that she isn't and . . . Interesting to note that the word she uses is "overwhelmed."

Although none of the examples she gives seem terribly extreme or threatening, taken as a whole to someone unused to a partner not left 100% satisfied by her, I can see how they are a cause for her concern. So instead of criticizing her, I think it's helpful to consider what it might be like to go from being known as one identity to suddenly inhabiting a different one.

She says he stares without discretion at other women in front of her. Depending on how this is done it can be rude or seem insulting. If it is done subtly it should be no big deal, but there is a range of behavior. I typically point out women I think are my partner's type to him if he doesn't seem to see them first, but then again, my partners haven't ogled and drooled and done head-swivels to stare at other women in front of me. But I once went on a first (and last) date with a man who couldn't keep his eyes on me during dinner, and had to stare longingly at virtually every woman that walked anywhere in his sightlines in the restaurant. I found it disrespectful and disconcerting. So if this is the way he's doing it and if it happens all the time, I can understand her unhappiness.

At first read, her husband's desire for more novelty in bed in the form of porn, lingerie and toys seems benign enough, and I admit that objecting to these things doesn't seem ggg at all. But maybe it's the kind of porn; maybe he wants to wear the lingerie; maybe the toys are ones she finds extreme. Maybe he seems to want these things every single time they have sex and she's unused to that, and it makes her feel that she herself isn't what he wants, that he has to import things to turn him on. Could it be that it's the way he makes his desire for those things known that is making her uncomfortable?

I think it's just all so new to her, not being the person with the higher sex drive, that she's afraid she can't keep up, keep him happy, and ultimately, keep him.
I'd advise her to relax, that as long as he's not complaining there's no problem. Everyone needs a little supplementing sometimes (or often, in some cases), and as for the twice daily masturbation in addition to the twice daily sex that they share, masturbating is in some significant ways so different from partnered sex that I see them as two only somewhat related activities.

WTF, it's not that you're not providing enough; it's that he loves having sex with you and he likes the experience of masturbation--the selfishness of it, the speed of it, the chance to fantasize about novelty or variety that no one partner can provide. Perhaps he just needs sexual release 4 times per day.
If he's ogling women obnoxiously, ask him to be more discreet, which is a reasonable request and which will also be appreciated by the objects of his interest, and find ways to turn some of it into a game with him, if you can. If you can't, try to remember that he's just responding to visual stimuli, not wishing you were these other women.
As for porn, lingerie, and toys: try them; you may like them. If you don't want to incorporate them every time, how about every 4th or 5th time?
Most importantly: rather than regarding your husband's high libido and desire to mix things up as quasi-threats to your feeling like a sex goddess, think about all the sexual adventures you two can have together over the long haul.

43
I have had multiple loud neighbors in the past and generally it has never been much of a problem for me (usually enjoyed it a little in fact). The only real problem I have had is when it keeps me from sleeping, especially on a frequent basis.



So I think the most important considerations would be time of day and duration of being loud. If you just have a few momentary outbursts of loudness, then I'd put it in the category of a police siren driving by and not much of a deal when it occurs. If its loud for longer periods (which is the impression I get from SOUND), then my recommendation would be to try to get it on before 10 pm on weeknights and before midnight on weekends.



The one time I had a real issue was when a neighbor was having loud sex for an hour or more between midnight and 4 am multiple nights a week. To me sex is just like any other polite sound consideration - if you wouldn't have your TV or music on that loud at that time of day, then you probably shouldn't have sex the same way.
44
@auntie griz: the multi-space problem isn't on your end--it's been happening to everyone, nobody knows why.

@36: SeanDr.. Ew! Hope every Man on the planet is not into a fantasy involving a nine yr old in pigtails? A 15-16 yr old maybe.
The old Lolita scenario. But 9. A little creepy..


I read his point as being: an adult woman subtly pretending to be a 9 year old looks a lot like an adult woman subtly pretending to be a 16- or 20-year old. Since her partner probably won't be able to tell the difference, there's no need to tell him something that might creep him out until after she gets to know him very well.
45
"We've had problems in the past with him staring at other women (everyone does it, but I do feel discretion in front of a spouse is required) and with him wanting more novelty in bed (watch porn, wear lingerie, use toys)."

She sees that as a problem. This is probably why some of us don't believe her when she says he was "staring" at other women, and why her use of the word "admitting" sets off alarm bells.

WTF: You're not GGG in the slightest. Having sex--even once or twice a day--but treating an interest in porn, lingerie, or toys as a problem is the opposite of GGG.

Also? Your husband is a person. You don't own him. Try to remember that every time he wants something you've decided he's not allowed to want.
46
WTF is acknowledging that she has a problem (“I've always had the higher libido and the more positive attitude toward sex in all of my relationships, but right now, I feel overwhelmed and, honestly, a little put off.”) She knows she’s not being GGG and she wants to change; she’s asking for help (“I want to feel GGG again, but am having trouble”)

In light of that, I don’t think it’s useful or helpful to continue to criticize her for her reaction. She’s not asking for Dan or the commentariat to pathologize her husband’s sexuality, she’s not condemning his interest; she feels overwhelmed and a little put off and she wants to change that.

She just found out that the husband she has sex with up to twice a day is also masturbating up to twice a day. She feels insecure (Isn’t she enough? Shouldn’t she be enough? What more does he want? What more can she do? ) and rather than address those very real insecurities, people are piling on accusing her of trying to over-control her husband. Imagine if you found out that despite what you thought was a very frequent, rewarding, and satisfying sex life with your partner s/he revealed that s/he was masturbating multiple times daily—it might shake your confidence a little bit, too.

Rather than shaking a castigating finger at her, it might be a better idea to offer her advice on how to get over her sense of being overwhelmed and put off and how to get her GGGness back.
47
An architect's suggestions for Stressing Over Unwanted Neighborly Disputes:

Sound can be attenuated in your bedroom: Heavy deep carpet, heavy full length drapes and upholstered furniture will all help soak up some of the sound before it has a chance to penetrate walls.
48
"Most gay male couples aren't monogamous" is right up there w/Dan's other demented claims, like gay people represent only 5% of the population.
49
If WTF's partner is overtly staring at other women, I don't think it's a matter of is that right or wrong, but more an issue of his attention to his wife's discomfort.
If she's obviously upset by it, he should, out of courtesy to her, dial it back a little?
That's not something I would be comfortable with either. There's no shame in being bothered that your SO checks out other women so openly. I am sure mine does too, but it's not overt. He cares enough not to let me see it, at least.
50
I'd like to expand on Dan's reply to KID by pointing out that there is a genre of hentai (Japanese porn comics and anime) called straight-shota where young boys, usually preteens, are seduced by women in their 20's or 30's. Ergo, lots of men have the same fantasy you do. Heck, look at Van Halen's "Hot for Teacher" for more proof.

I would assume that it is simply easier for men to dive into this fantasy do to the cultural assumption of women as less sexually assertive and more likely to actually be raped by an older man.

Bottom line: fantasize yourself to as many climaxes as your body will allow.
52
Sounds like WTF is "overwhelmed" not so much because of the specifics of staring at women, masturbating twice a day, etc, but because of what all those things seem (to her) to add up to: he's not satisfied with the frequency of their lovemaking. She is assuming, or else he has said straight out, that even if they have sex once or twice a day, it's not enough to keep him from "needing" to masturbate once or twice more a day. She is taking this as evidence of a failure to satisfy on her part or evidence of him being unreasonably demanding. Sounds like some good old fashioned communication is needed here, more than anything.
53
where do I sign up to be a fecal donor?
54
@47: The fact that she characterizes him wanting to try toys as "We've had problems..." means she is pathologizing her husband's (very normal) sexuality. I mean, imagine what she'd be saying if he'd opened up to her about any actual kinks.

Imagine if you found out that despite what you thought was a very frequent, rewarding, and satisfying sex life with your partner s/he revealed that s/he was masturbating multiple times daily—it might shake your confidence a little bit, too.

I don't have to imagine. It didn't make me treat it as a crime, any more than I've ever treated a partner's wanting to try some toys as "us having a problem." I took it as normal, because at that point I'd already figured out that having sex with me doesn't mean I own you. And I am a long way from perfect, so figuring that out can't be impossible for anyone else. In fairness, this is a little easier when you're male, because lots of people will happily (sometimes too-happily) tell you that your sex partners aren't your property, but when you're a woman, people don't.
The fact that she describes him wanting something as a problem makes her look awful.

You talk about her wanting to get her GGGness back, but it doesn't sound like she's ever been anywhere near it, since she seems not to have the slightest concept of what GGG would involve. Seriously, principles like "your partner is allowed to want things" is the very minimum level, and she's far below that point.

The fact that she's always had the "more positive" attitude toward sex in her previous relationships is a red herring. It doesn't mean she used to be GGG, it means she's used to dating people even less GGG than someone who thinks it's a "problem" when her partner wants to try toys or porn or lingerie.
That's pretty much the lowest bar imaginable.
55
@LavaGirl: Ew!

LavaGirl, you're totally ruining my favorable stereotype of women from the British Commonwealth as being hardy and tough and game compared to your average entitled American princess.

The idea is to roll play a woman who is innocent and naive and yet totally slutty and game at the same time. I sure as hell didn't make this fantasy up. I stole a couple of those quotes from porn star Kelly Wells, who often plays this type of character in her scenes, and who says the funniest things ("I'm just silly for cock! gag, gag, gag").

The fact that the only people in the real world who are that naive happen to be children is an unhappy coincidence, or, in the case of LW, a potentially happy one.
56
Not all people who are in heterosexual relationships who are non-monogamous like the term "swinger" or "lifestyle". To me -- an early 30s bi woman married to a straight man-- that makes me think of creepy, old, fat, people having key parties. I usually just say "non monogamous".
57
@46: I'm loving your responses here. As I mentioned, it's something I struggle with too, and I greatly appreciate your empathy and common sense.
58
@dansdelanuit, yes, I'm mid 40s but I also don't identify as a swinger.

When I went to "lifestyle" parties, I sensed a disturbing pressure for one person in a couple (usually the woman) to put up with having sex with a guy she wouldn't have chosen, so that her husband can have sex with the guy's wife.

Best case scenario, one of the wives was into the sex; worst case, both wives were putting up with unwanted sex to please their husbands.

Better to pay a sex worker than to trade your wife's body in exchange for access to another woman's body.

Also, way too much homophobia & transphobia in that lifestyle.
59
@Hunter78: However, I will acknowledge some men deliberately exploit this right to deliberately and nastily put down their partners.

When a straight man's alone or in the company of other men, he's going to take a good long look at those lululemon pants walking by. Sometimes he'll forget himself in the presence of polite company.

If you assume your man is doing this to intentionally put you down, and you have no other reason to think your man is an asshole, then you're probably the asshole, not him.
60
P.S. On the subject of ogling, this hidden-camera video is brilliant.

And what do you know, turns out women check out other women as well.
61
"My old place had thicker walls and younger neighbors."







What makes you think your younger neighbors were any more interested in hearing it?! I had a female roommate after college who had unbelievably loud, screaming sex with her BF in our two-bedroom apartment. Even though our BRs were on opposite sides of a large living area, it was still fucking annoying. She sounded like she was being knifed during the act. People would tell me I must be exaggerating until they heard it. How freaking annoying.







But I'm not sure the oldsters would necessarily feel up to calling you on it, either. Though I imagine they would complain to the landlord, maybe he doesn't care.
62
I'm going to contradict Dan and most of the other commenters and say that TOLD should watch the movie Don Jon. And if it was an occasional extra bout of masturbation or two, no problem, but the fact that he does it every day, yes, that seems to indicate he can only really come hard with his hand. Not exactly a problem, but he might have a deathgrip issue that could be helped with a Fleshlight. And in the meantime maybe he could engage in post-coital masturbation while she is still there.
63
seandr, I assumed Hunter's comment about "nastily" was referring to men muttering to their partners "why can't your butt look like hers?"
64
I meant WTF, not TOLD, sheesh.
65
@63: Or the one guy who told me he was looking for my replacement. But, I think that goes to seandr's greater point of the guy just being an asshole.
66
oh, and seandr @60, the woman in that bra-cam video was wearing a bright pink bra with her shirt open. No wonder men, women, and babies looked at her chest.
67
"I feel for WTF. My husband and I have sex 1-2 times a day, and I still felt insecure about his masturbating. It's hard not to feel conditioned like we have to meet all of our partners' needs..."



You know, maybe you're *not* meeting all of his needs. But also, maybe it's ok if he meets a few of them himself. If he's not complaining, what's the problem? You can try having more sex if you want to, but if not, let him rub one out now and then and stop worrying.
68
@62: The reason no one else has that reaction is because her complaint that he can't come when he's with her, or is insufficiently interested in sex with her, is not actually in the letter. Can you quote the part that made you think that the husband needs to be told that porn is bad?

Also, TOLD is LW1, not WTF's husband.
69
As for WTF, I wouldn't want to have sex with someone who insensitively ogled other women in front of me, either. It's just not polite, unless it's agreed-upon that both partners find it sexy. Her specific complaints are weird (why are lingerie, porn, or toys problematic?), but the overall tone of the letter makes me suspect that the husband isn't making the LW feel desired and valued. That's probably the problem.

I have to believe WTF's question was worded poorly. Maybe - MAYBE - it was meant to read like this:

"I no longer want to have frequent sex with my husband, which is new for me, and I would like to rekindle my desire. He stares at other women in front of me, he belittles our sex life and insists that I'm not good enough on my own and that we must incorporate porn or toys to get him excited, and tells me that he has to masturbate twice a day because I'm not satisfying him enough. I'm a fan of masturbation, toys, and porn, but the way my husband requests them makes me feel bad and unenthusiastic. I want to feel GGG again, but am having trouble. What do you think? How can I best approach him about changing this aspect our of marriage?"

If that's not what LW actually meant, she needs to get a grip.

Regardless, I'm not sure what connection a partner's masturbation habits have to the other partner. Well, wait, that's not true. Honestly, the hotter my real-life sex life, the hotter I feel overall and the more I masturbate, thinking about all the hot sex I'm having.
70
@60: That video is hilarious, especially because of the cheerful "Ding!" noise. But yeah, I agree with EricaP that it doesn't demonstrate anything other than that people look at unusually attention-grabbing displays.
71
@46: "She just found out that the husband she has sex with up to twice a day is also masturbating up to twice a day. She feels insecure (Isn’t she enough? Shouldn’t she be enough? What more does he want? What more can she do? )"



But what can she do but address those questions to him?



I think what people are reacting to is her saying she feels "a little put off..."
72
@67: I'd have sex with my husband five times a day if it were feasible. Not just for meeting his needs, but because it's fun and I greatly enjoy it. I'm trying to get to a place (like WTF) where there's a happy medium, where we can have sex *and* masturbate, but it's more difficult for me than I feel it "should" be.

And while this is absolutely not his fault, I have been with some assholes in the past who've used it against me, bringing out the "you're not good enough" (yes, those words) card. I understand that it has little to do with my current relationship except for being baggage I'm trying my level best to get through, except it takes time. But, it's worth the effort.

In the meantime, he and I have come up with some compromises - more sex, masturbating / watching porn together, etc. I have zero desire to shame him for something that I know, intellectually, is completely NOT a slam on me or my skills. It's just getting that through to the emotional side that's been difficult. His willingness to listen and work with me on it has been very effective, as has been my therapy sessions to work on the insecurity.
73
@EricaP: babies looked at her chest.

I never would have guessed the little buggers had such vulgar minds. Shocking, really.
74
@68 I don't think porn is bad. I think that a man who still masturbates every day without fail even though he is having sex every day is not finding intercourse fully satisfying. Presumably she would have mentioned if he wasn't coming during sex.

And I'm sorry, but I don't care how young or virile a guy, if he's already come twice that day, sex is not going to be as exciting. Unless he has a problem with premature ejaculation and he's understandably trying to slow down, sloppy seconds or thirds just means less heat.
75
I should mention I'm a female dominant, so I admit obvious bias. Still, it just seems like a matter of basic plumbing mechanics.
76
@74: And I'm sorry, but I don't care how young or virile a guy, if he's already come twice that day, sex is not going to be as exciting.

I am a guy. Please, in the future, refrain from telling me what my own sexuality is like.

Pro tip: Other people's sexuality is theirs, not yours, and when they think it's one way and you think it's another, you are unlikely to be the one who's correct.
77
Sex is not going to be as exciting FOR ME if a guy has already come a couple times that day. You think we can't tell, but we can. I should have been more specific.
78
@56 "creepy, old, fat, people having key parties"

Wow, someone's a judgmental ass. I'm sorry if that's especially blunt or combatitive, but fat and old people are allowed to have sexuality, and they have no need for your judgment on it or your expression of "ick".

It amazes me that we can realise that NIMBY statements like, "I don't mind if they're gay, so long as they're not gay near me." are completely unacceptable and yet it's still SO acceptable to NIMBY the FUCK out of the elderly or overweight people, especially if they're men.

Quit demonizing other people's sexuality. No, that guy in a speedo is not "disgusting". He's a HUMAN BEING. The only disgusting thing is your oppressive judging.
79
@77: Okay. How do you explain "I think that a man who still masturbates every day without fail even though he is having sex every day is not finding intercourse fully satisfying?"

"I don't think porn is bad."
Then why did you recommend that the husband watch a movie that teaches that porn is bad? Why do you think it's the husband that needs to be educated in the first place?

His wife has some very wrong and very bad ideas about sexuality. The solution here is not to educate him to make his sexuality conform to her bizarre ideas of what it's supposed to be.

Look, some people have high sex drives. Some people even commit the apparently-dire crime of having a higher sex drive than their partner--for whatever reason--currently satisfies. Some people just like masturbating, and don't see it as a substitute for sex (or vice-versa).

But go on. What is it about being male that, in your opinion, makes these things impossible or unacceptable? I'm male. Can you tell me at which point, exactly, your belief system says I forfeited the right to act like I own my own body? Was it when I was born? Or when I started having sexual relationships? I'm curious; feel free to explain.

And if her sex life with her husband wasn't exciting, don't you think she'd have mentioned that? She certainly didn't seem at all reluctant to mention that they'd had "problems" like him wanting to try lingerie or toys, so I have trouble imagining that she'd omit any actual problems.
80
@78: I sympathize. It's incredibly hard (but incredibly rewarding) for people to figure out that other people exist, and that their existence has nothing to do with you--that they aren't existing at you.
81
@66 I always feel a bit bad for babies exposed to that sort of thing. I worry it will make them hungry. It's like displaying a meal and then walking right by and not letting them have any.

@77 Who cares if it's as exciting for you? You're not the letter writer, so your personal sexual preferences don't really come into it. There was nothing stated about the letter writer finding it less exciting or enjoyable the second time in the same day, nor anything about the quality of the sex being a problem other than him wanting more novelty. As someone who has had sex with the same man multiple times in a day, I can state from my experience that, for me, there is no drop in quality. Which means it's a matter of personal preference or natural variation between people. In which case, there is no reason to assume a problem we have no evidence for. You really seem to be projecting a lot into the letter that simply was not there. Of course, if you expect a drop in quality, you'll probably have one. Psychology works like that. But if the letter writer could tell, then the letter writer would not have needed to be told about the masturbation or the quality of the sex would have been a problem all along. Neither of which are things which are even implied in the letter.
82
@79, LOL, calm down. I'm not talking at all about belief systems or what is acceptable or unacceptable. Also I recommended that SHE watch Don Jon, not him. I don't think that Don Jon was anti-porn--I think it was a lot more nuanced than that, and at the very least would help a woman understand why a man might want to masturbate even if he was having regular sex with a woman who looked like Scarlett Johannson.

If I were talking about belief systems, I would be the biggest hypocrite. I'm the three dozen orgasms a day woman. I am just talking about plumbing--I like it big and splashy, and surely you must admit there is less volume in the tank after the third pump of the day?

@81 Obviously I am not the letter writer, but perhaps she is subconsciously feeling the lack that I notice consciously. I just wanted to mention my different opinion, along with the fact that I am not a representative woman (being a high-libido female dominant).
83
@82 Then why wouldn't the problems have started well before she found out that he was masturbating? What would finding out have changed?
84
I will also add it might simply be a timing thing for WTF. A lot of guys are most horny in the morning, and have a biological need to come at that time. If they are only having sex in the evening, that might explain everything right there.
85
@84: In my experience, the people who are most horny in the morning are women. Apparently the science says there's a testosterone spike right then, for lots of women.

There's also nothing to suggest they're not having sex first thing in the morning, and then him masturbating later in the day. There is, in fact, nothing whatsoever to suggest anything he does is actually having any negative effect at all on their sex life.

The only problems she says they had are that he sometimes wants things she doesn't think he's allowed to want, and that he sometimes does things with his own body without her permission. It's possible that you're not just projecting, and that she's just neglected to tell him that she's intensely committed to the idea of a 24/7 D/s relationship, but I think it's much more likely that she's just absorbed a vast amount of cultural prudery and needs to start the most basic of GGG 101 courses.
86
Sometimes when I'm lost in thought my head will turn toward what I like to see. If an important partner complained I'd apologize, this would only seem appropriate to me if I wasn't that into the guy. If I noticed that a guy wasn't paying as much attention to me as the eye candy around, I'd probably ask if he wanted to hang out with the distractions instead. The reaction would tell me all I need to know about my priority in comparison. Most guys are discreet about their other attractions if they are into the woman or happily partnered.

At first read, her husband's desire for more novelty in bed in the form of porn, lingerie and toys seems benign enough, and I admit that objecting to these things doesn't seem ggg at all. But maybe it's the kind of porn; maybe he wants to wear the lingerie; maybe the toys are ones she finds extreme. Maybe he seems to want these things every single time they have sex and she's unused to that, and it makes her feel that she herself isn't what he wants, that he has to import things to turn him on. Could it be that it's the way he makes his desire for those things known that is making her uncomfortable?
Loved this. Opposing desires, different tastes, sexual incompatibility isn't wrong. No ones preferences are wrong. But big differences are often problematic, also if the rollout, feedback or after care is neglected. Sometimes all you can do is outsource or leave. If WTF thinks that masturbating partners will cheat or are bad in some way she needs to get that out of her head. But desire differences are pretty important, I think that's where her focus needs to be to a) sort any problems or b) reassure herself that everything's going well for her and they're both happily getting their desires met.
87
@85 you are probably right, but just in case she is like me I wanted to present a differing opinion. A lot of women enjoy the sexual power they wield over men, whether they are into D/s or not, and if a guy is less horny from frequent masturbation it diminishes the woman's power. That side of D/s comes naturally to a lot of vanilla women.

If she happens to fall into that camp, it can't hurt to admit to herself that she's being greedy. Now a lot of men are all "my body, my choice" but some guys who might not be into D/s either are flattered by such an intense focus on their midsection. I'm not saying such an approach from a woman is right or morally just, quite the opposite, but it can't hurt to know thyself.
88
@87: That makes sense. We don't talk about that much, partly because those same faux-vanilla women don't like having their preferences discussed any more than anyone else who's into nonconsensual D/s does.
89
So funny how the defensive men on here are describing the wife with terms like "VERY wrong and VERY bad..." while no woman yet has made any value judgements about the man's behavior (unless you count saying that "some men" - not specifically the letter writer's husband - ogle women openly as a way of dissing their wives). My two cents here is that no matter how young and horny you are, a woman can't keep up twice a day sex forever without getting a bladder infection. If I were having sex 14 times a week with my husband and yet I was constantly walking in on him with his dick in his hand, yes, I would wonder what the issue was. Frankly, I would be kind of worried about him, and would probably think he was trying to manage high anxiety or depression with self-soothing behavior. Of course, I could be totally wrong about that and maybe for some men four orgasms a day are a health necessity, but DAMN I'm glad I'm not married to one of them. My mucous membranes couldn't take it.
90
If I were having sex 14 times a week with my husband and yet I was constantly walking in on him with his dick in his hand, yes, I would wonder what the issue was.

Isn't it interesting that the people "defending" the wife keep needing to rewrite the letter?

Could the reason be that the interpretation you want to draw is not supported in any way by the letter you're pretending to draw it from?
91
@Marena: I think that a man who still masturbates every day without fail even though he is having sex every day is not finding intercourse fully satisfying.

This is false.
92
@88 I'm one of those faux-vanilla women who greatly enjoys it when men act attracted to me, whether you call that power or not. Please tone down the vitriol. I am not into nonconsensual D/s.
93
I feel for WTF. I recently broke off a relationship with a guy who sounds a lot like her husband. All the things he was into, while they were not "my things" per se, they all sounded like a lot of fun to me, too. I was thinking Yahtzee! We tried a bunch of them, and had a many a good time, but over a couple of months I found myself feeling way less enthused about sex with this guy. And I was feeling overwhelmed by the constant need for variety and novelty. I love sex, and all of what my BF was into was a turn on for me, too. But I began to feel like the sex and the novelty had top billing, while the emotional bond (which is my main thing) was not being actively nurtured. We talked about it several times, figured out the real issues at play, and the relationship ended because of those issues. But the sense that I was always part of a show, the growing irritation with the porn and the toys and the costumes yada yada were for me the signals that something was off. Maybe it's that way for WTF, too. Sometimes we complain about the real thing, sometimes we complain about a surrogate thing. I wonder if her needs in some other area are not being met. Instead of taking the masturbation personally, maybe sit and sort out the real problem.
94
Is it weird that I don't think KID attracting an "actual pedophile" would be such a bad thing? Safe, appropriate fantasy-realization for her; consensual, legal sexual outlet for him. Win/win, no?
95
very very vera, I think you nailed it.
96
Marrena: I don't care how young or virile a guy, if he's already come twice that day, sex is not going to be as exciting.

Where do you get your funny ideas about men?

Speaking for myself, I go through high libido phases during which both masturbation frequency and excitement for real sex increase in tandem.

The only clue you'd have that I spanked it earlier that day is reduced semen volume, and the only reason the sex wouldn't be as exciting is if you're expecting it to end with your whole face covered with sprays of come.
97
@96 *cough*
98
If someone who was obviously a mature, consenting, nontrafficked adult seemed to be playing "I'm a cute little teen who just discovered that cock is all yummy" I'd be perfectly fine with it. I can't see any harm in KID fantasizing that she is a child and don't think I'm entitled to be judgy about it. However, I have relatives who were molested when they were nine or ten and if someone disclosed to me after we fucked that she'd been imagining herself 9 instead of 15 I'd be "Wash my brain with bleach cut my dick off call the police/ a doctor/ the suicide hotline why did you put that in my head gahhhh."
99
@96 She did say something about volume although the face thing is all yours.

I can't feel how men do, and I've never really cared to talk about masturbation habits in much depth, but from what I gather it's not too different from how I work. If I've satisfied myself earlier, more is required to get into the main dish. I know I've met a few guys who preferred to clean the pipes before hot dates to calm down the horniness so they wouldn't come across as pushy or needy. And I know it backfires sometimes, they come across as too aloof or disinterested.
100
Eudaemonic, there’s nothing wrong with hypothesizing. WTF’s letter as presented sounds peculiar and is short on detail. People are trying on different ways for it to make it make sense. Your interpretation is that she thinks that she likes sex but that she’s really an uptight selfish prude. Yes, that is absolutely a possible interpretation.

The rest of us add background to the letter based on knowledge we have built up with decades of experience with people, relationships and sexuality. We all do, for every letter. Including you. We also explain our biases and state where we are interpolating. We all *agree* that it’s normal for people to check out the action and *agree* that it’s not normal for someone to be upset by a partner being “married, not dead.”

You propose that she’s not normal. Yes, possible. Absolutely a legitimate interpretation. I don’t think anyone’s disputed that.

Other commenters have talked about how they are fine with partners checking out the action except for this one guy... No, we can’t tell from the letter whether her boyfriend is ‘this one guy.’ We do however have experience with ‘this one guy.’ We know him. We have met him. More than once. We know that he’s out there — everywhere, even. Given that, it’s reasonable to hypothesize that he *might* be ‘this one guy.’

Neither can we tell if she is not normal. I don’t have any information about the prevalence of women who enjoy twice-a-day sex all the time who think they are GGG but who are in reality uptight selfish prudes. It’s a valid interpretation but not the only one. There’s nothing wrong with generating hypotheses to explain the data and then testing them. Unfortunately, in this case we can’t test them, the process dead-ends at hypothesis generation.

When I was a randy teen having sex with another randy teen six times a day when we could, we sometimes ran into situations where one of us felt crowded and uncomfortable with all the attention. We figured out that the trick then was not to get pushy with the other but to walk away so the other would follow. (Not a male-female thing: it worked both ways.) Nothing was wrong with either of us and our libidos were pretty closely matched — but getting pushy would always end things.

The letter is consistent with the hypothesis that he’s on the pushy side. Still a hypothesis, but there’s nothing about the letter that contradicts it; it explains the data; and we know that guys on the pushy side exist. There’s no reason to get all cross if someone proposes it as a hypothesis.
101
@92: I'm one of those faux-vanilla women who greatly enjoys it when men act attracted to me, whether you call that power or not.

See how you're deliberately mischaracterizing what Marrena said? Thanks for popping out of the woodwork--the way you guys always do--to illustrate my point. This kind of thing is rarely discussed, because people like you are always so uninhibited when it comes to shutting down the conversation.

Here's what she actually said: "A lot of women enjoy the sexual power they wield over men, whether they are into D/s or not, and if a guy is less horny from frequent masturbation it diminishes the woman's power. That side of D/s comes naturally to a lot of vanilla women."

Philophile, when engaging in this kind of D/s, do you attempt to get your partner's consent when doing so?
Does your partner consent to giving you veto power over his masturbation habits, or do you just try to use the same social pressure demonstrated here to extract it nonconsensually?

If you do get consent--which faux-vanilla people don't--then you're obviously not the person being addressed, and you know it. But you say you are one of those people, and that's the only thing you said that seems credible. If you actually weren't into nonconsensual D/s play, would you be so keen to defend people who are, or to shut down a conversation about people who are?
102
@101 Except that Philophile in comment 92 wasn't responding to what you quoted, but to the person in comment 88 who said, "We don't talk about that much, partly because those same faux-vanilla women don't like having their preferences discussed any more than anyone else who's into nonconsensual D/s does." It was comment 88 that compared Marrena's point about some D/s desires to nonconsensual sex. So, if you want to respond to comment 92, you should respond within the context of what 92 was actually replying to. You're really being unfair to Philophile in your comment.