Savage Love

Never Enough

Comments

1
How jaded am I that my first thought upon reading the last letter was 'hope he doesn't attack you, honey'? But then, Dan seemed to be thinking along the same lines, so...
2
LW1; do you like this man you are married to? If you think he is a liar- and trust, being a basic need to build any sort of intimacy- then perhaps it's time to own up to yourself how deep is your love.
Cue a little music, cause I'm pretty sure that's a song title.
If you don't trust this man, then leave him.
The porn issue, well, for some obscure biological imperative reason
( ie excuse), Men seem to have to watch porn, just as they have to breathe. How do I know this? Because Dan and other men say it is so.
3
@2 LavaGirl: I love your BeeGees metaphor on LW1 about her porn-obsessed husband!
I agree; if WIFEY doesn't trust her spouse, she can and really should leave him.
Hmmm..thank you, too, for additional food for thought. Men need porn...?
Hoooboy--I can see Hunter all over this one!
4
He also parties every time he goes on a business trip. Needless to say, I also suspect he cheats.
Yes, he watches porn and goes out for drinks when he's traveling for business, so it's obvious he's being unfaithful.

..Every time I even try to bring anything up with him, it is flung back in my face because I cheated on him.
If "bring(ing) anything up with him" consists of criticizing his porn consumption and/or hectoring him about your suspicions of infidelity — for which you offer no evidence whatsoever, and seem to be entirely projection on your part — then "Yeah, well you admit to having cheated on me" seems like a reasonable, even mild, response.
5
@4: Surely there's a statute of limitations on that. At some point, he's gotta either forgive it, or divorce her.
I agree that she's nutso for worrying about porn, but he can't hold on to that trump card forever.
6
WIFEY, if you don't trust your husband, you both need counseling, especially if he keeps flinging your affair in your face. If you've been faithful to him since that one episode and tried to earn his trust back, he needs to let you know that he forgives you and trusts you. And he may not "need to" cheat, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want to, so he should maybe find a better way of reassuring you that he doesn't do anything more than look.

Now, if you've read Savage Love for any length of time, you'll know that humans are not exactly wired for monogamy; it's a social and religious control mechanism (especially for women). It's possible to be physically faithful to someone, but we're human, and we're going to find other people attractive. So other women may warm him up, but you get to take him home.

Unless he's spending the grocery or mortgage money on porn, I wouldn't worry too much about his consumption. It's not as if you're going without while he jerks it to online smut; you indicated that he still has sex with you. Maybe you could watch with him or find porn/erotica you like and share it with him. That way you won't feel as isolated.
7
@5, yeah, he's still fixated on her betrayal, and she thinks he's a liar. Not much of a marriage.
8
I liked all the advice. WISH seemed to need something more to me though. She could dislike giving head because of past trauma or nagging or because she doesn't think mutual oral could feel good enough to do regularly. Maybe keep the conversation dropped for a few months and work on relaxing her with getting oral. Don't give her head every time. Watch some how-to vids (not porn) or browse Scarleteen for tips to try out when you do go down. Take lots of breaks to make out and grind or keep connected with your normal routine. Maybe she would like kissing your sack even though she seems not to like giving head, and she could occupy herself with that while you try out your new stuff. So she won't worry so much about what you're doing. If you can get her to relax during oral she might start to like it. Lube and light touch until her breathing gets funny.

Even if she can not relax with oral, you could try to find other directions she might like to explore besides PIV sex. Will she masturbate for you and vice versa? If you tell her that you want to try something new along with PIV she might have an idea you can run with. It just sounds like this sex life stopped growing. Maybe I am being melodramatic.
9
@5: "Surely there's a statute of limitations on that. At some point, he's gotta either forgive it, or divorce her."

If she is the one who keeps "bringing up anything" -- which dollars to donuts means comparing his porn viewing to infidelity -- then she is the one who is going to keep getting her _actual_ infidelity flung back at her.

From the letter: "In his eyes, he can do no wrong because it will never be as bad as me having slept with someone else early in our relationship." Well, yeah, LW, that's because looking at porn and going out drinking AREN'T as bad as having slept with someone else. If you don't want to get yelled at for cheating yourself, stop turning porn use into a proxy for cheating. It's not the same thing, and if you keep insisting that it is, you deserve to get schooled.

You're the one who insists on saying "I feel like when you look at porn that I am not enough." Well, how the hell do you suppose he must have felt when you did a whole lot more than LOOK? If he is supposed to let go of you actually having cheated, YOU MUST let go of him looking at porn.
10
Weird answer for LW3, Dan. Because this woman is Not at the beach, she is in her own home.
She is wearing sexy clothes around her home, staring longingly into his eyes to titillate this neighbour.
She may feel that sex with him is out of the question. Can she be so sure he has the same outcome in mind?
Sounds like a dangerous game to play, to me.
11
"I think my husband is addicted to porn. I find porn in his browser history almost every single day."

Stop a moment and consider the implications of those two sentences.

What they imply is that she is checking out his browser history almost every single day. She is the textbook definition of the paranoid snoop -- one who, oh, by the way, just happens to be the one in the relationship to have _actually_ cheated on her partner. Yeah, I call projection.
12
@10 cont; whoops. Didn't read the rest of Dan's advice. Thought it was another letter.
LW3; dangerous game. I'd suggest you cut it out.
13
Avast; pointers all, to a very mistrusting environment for both of them.
14
For some reason I kind of doubt that LW1's guy is actually constantly flinging her infidelity in her face. I think what more likely happened was she kept bringing up the tiniest stuff and accusing him of cheating, and finally at some point he had to say to her "Look, I did not cheat on you, in fact you are the one who cheated on me and you need to stop this" and she turned it into "he constantly flings it in my face." She even tried to casually slip the cheating in there. "He does this and this and THIS and he is such a liar and oh I cheated on him but he is such a jerk!" I don't know, something about the aggressive tone of righteousness leads me to doubt the veracity of it all.
15
@ 11 - Actually, it probably means that she checks it every day, but doesn't always find porn. Which makes her look even worse, since he's not actually as obsessive about porn as she is about snooping.

Otherwise, you took the words right out of my mouth. She's the one who demonstrated she's not trustworthy, yet she tries and tries to find a way to blame him.
16
"You cheated on your woman. She shouldn't trust you. But eventually she does. You know what happens now? Now you don't trust her. You know why? 'Cause you just gave her a Get Some Dick Free Card. And you never know when she might cash it in." - Chris Rock

LW1: Reverse the gender and this scenario should seem quite familiar to you.
17
@13 LavaGirl: That he is paranoid and distrustful like her is not in evidence. The only thing we know from the letter is that when she goes after him for the porn use, he bats her argument down by saying, more or less, "Of the two of us in this relationship, only one has actually cheated, yet the one who DID cheat is also the one snooping and slinging accusations. You need to shut the hell up, Ms. Paranoid Hypocrite."

That's a far cry from him being obsessed by her infidelity.
18
Avast; we meet again.
Sounds to me, like he's playing some retribution game. Just a hunch. You know, female intuition and all.
Shit, am I allowed to have that?
19
Wives who fear their husbands are cheating on them because they like to look at porn are being unreasonably insecure. People in committed, monogamous relationships do not magically stop being attracted to other people.

The porn could indicate that he's not getting everything in bed that he might want. The proper response to that is not to accuse him of cheating but to ask him to show you the porn he likes and see if you might be able to handle expanding your repertoire. I bet he's already asked for or tried something and was shot down. "Ewww, you want to do it with the lights on?!" all the way to "You want me to stick my finger where?!"
21
Once again, it's the blame game. Maybe WIFEY is more at fault because she's overly suspicious, nags her husband, and cheated on him early on. Maybe W's husband is more at fault because he's addicted to porn and could be gaslighting her. The whole time I was reading the letter, I kept thinking: This does not sound like a happy marriage. If the husband gave up porn, really gave it up and wasn't just hiding his browsing history, would it become a happy marriage? I think not. I'm supposed to suggest counseling here so you can feel like you've tried everything, but really, I'd proceed directly to divorce without passing go.
22
Agreed with Avast; #20 is an example of what the cheating LW's non-cheating husband is probably not doing. When a cheater accuses a non-cheater of cheating, constantly, the cheater should get used to having the fact brought up that the one who cheated is the one who cheated.

That said, she should still get a divorce, so her husband can go find someone who's not an insane mess.

WISH and WINDOWS both seem kind of dumb, too. Three LWs this week who really ought to already know the answers to their own questions, especially WISH. If she doesn't wanna do it, doesn't do it, and says she's not gonna do it, then dude, she's not gonna do it.
23
I don't know how old WIFEY and her husband are, but it doesn't sound like either of them is mature enough to get married.

Agree completely with Dan's advice. WIFEY needs to stop snooping, let the guy have his porn, and stop being paranoid that he'll cheat just because she did it once. Hubby needs to speak openly with his wife when she brings up her fears, not continuously punish her for a past transgression. His response should be "You're making something out of nothing, and I won't stand for these accusations," not, "YOU'RE the one who cheated, not me."

Dan hit it out of the park this week.
24
Glad you liked the music reference, Grizelda.
How was the recital?
So, Allan Cummings , as Eli Gold, was doing his thing on The Good Wife tonight.
He's coming to Australia in May, to Sydney Writers' Festival. I'd try to go down, but prior commitment.
And Alicia is so busy with her new political career,no time to entertain romance. Boring for her.
Though Finn, is circling the wagon.
25
I keep adding a s to Allan's name, Grizelda. It is cosier with an s but not my call.
26
Please goddesses & gods, spare us another tortured thread on sex addiction and whether or not it's a real thing.
27
Gonzo @26
As a long time God, and also a part-time Goddess nowadays, I here by declare that I shall refrain form any tortured discussions of sex addiction. At least for the next few weeks.
28
I think all the advice was on the mark.

@4,5,7 - Sure, there's a statute of limitations, but the clock doesn't start running until she knocks it off with the projection. Suspicious minds are a constant giveaway. Basically, yeah, not much of a marriage, and instead of throwing it back at her, he should just hurry up and DTMFA. Maybe that's my projection...@WIFEY is familiar.
29
What a stunningly weak generation of men who 'need porn'. You don't 'need porn' you want it and you're too lazy to work on making your own sex life hotter, so you do the easiest thing possible. Why have foreplay when you can just hit play? Yes, their marriage does not sound great, but the idea that 'if you've been reading this column you know that...' etc. Dan Savage is an advice columnist, not a scientist.
30
Philo- re your last comment in last week's thread:
For many people a drag show is the only side of transgenderism/bigenderism/crossdressingrism/whateverism they ever get to experience. Yes, it can be entertaining, but if this is your only contact with the seen above population then one is likely to get a pretty distorted picture.
Burlesque and stripping can also be entertaining, but it's not the only way women and other "ordinary" performers are represented in real life.
I'm not saying those shows should not be performed, I just hope the show goers can look beyond the glamorous, out there facade.
Unfortunately my experience is that this is not always the case.
31
To all readers like LW1's husband.... delete your damn browser history. For all the easy ways there are to make sure that history gets cleared... this kind of issue seems to crop up a lot. Thoughtful partners do the little things to save their significant other from unnecessary distress. Do we all share every little dirty thought that comes to mind about someone else with our partner? no. Because that would get old in a hurry... and might lead to distress during times of insecurity. Porn viewing should be treated the same way. Leaving the history intact is like telling your spouse about your virtual jackoff sessions. "honey...omg....today i jerked it to a woman eating another woman's ass...neither of them looked anything like you...it was so hot". One thing the LW doesn't mention...and this DOES make a difference to me... is whether its a shared computer...and she is seeing the history while sitting down to surf the web... or whether she is willfully sitting down at HIS pc and snooping. A distinction should be made.

all that said... I agree with Dan and most comments... she needs to knock it off...stop projecting...etc.
32
@sexcolumnreader -- work on making your own sex life hotter? The number of men who jackoff daily is SOOOOOO much higher than the number of women who do so it isn't even funny. Porn actually DOES fill a need...if nothing else, it gives men an outlet and saves their partners from being constantly harassed for orgasms 7 days a week. Win win. (i wish i could quote some study about the stat i just made up... but i got nothin...just a lifetime of personal experience) I would love it if the "solution" to being horny was a simple as having more sex with my partner. She would respectfully tell me to jerkoff to porn and give her body a break.
33
Re: WISH. There are degrees of oral from licking all the way to deep throat. Maybe she would consider some minimal oral.
34
Ms Lava - You add an L as well. The reference was not bad; your musical compatriots get FTWL, with a more positive reception for Gibb, A, who provided Mr Savage with the inspiration to get through the difficulties of his OS encounters.

Personally I rank the male porn "need" in the same category as Mrs Elton's fortune - as near ten thousand pounds as makes no difference, only the difference, though real, doesn't matter for many. I generally sit this discussion out, not having capital to waste on it.
35
People who flat out refuse to participate in normal sex acts (like BJs or cunnilingus) have issues. Whether the issue is not being comfortable with fluids, some sort of religious guilt, trauma, low libido, body image discomfort, a hardcore gag reflex., etc... there is an issue there somewhere. People who only like getting oral but won't give it are just selfish. Though this particular letter writer seemed to indicate that his partner doesn't really like getting it either...
36
Ms kitchen exhibition needs to rethink. Even if everything is on the up and up, she is STILL having a kind of relationship with the neighbor. A relationship completely lacking in honesty or communication.

He might (just might) not even realize she's getting off on 'showing.' He might be completely cool with exchanging glances through the kitchen window. He might be lining his garage with sheet plastic and sharpening his knife collection. She's sort of got to make some contact SOMETIME. Perhaps a week or month after stopping the Icebox Burlesque shows.
38
@chairmenofthebored

Well, I actually am a scientist and the science indicates that women are more easily aroused by visuals and have a greater need for variety, also we lose interest in a sexual partner faster, so it would indicate that women need porn more... and yet.... I see your point though. If my partner and I didn't have a compatible sex drive, I would probably want a quick fix here and there too.
39
@sexcolumnreader - there seems to be such a discrepancy in female horniness to male horniness that there simply aren't enough women with "compatible sex drives" to go around. Variety/arousal by visuals/losing interest... those things are distinct from libido. One could have all 3 of those realities and still only be horny enough to fuck once or twice a week or less. Another common difference between the sexes...
man: "i am so stressed out, i really need a blowjob"
woman: "i am so stressed out, the last thing on my mind is sex"
Trying to compare a man's "need" for porn to a woman's "lack of need for porn" is oversimplifying our wiring. Or to quote (from City Slickers???maybe). Women need a reason to have sex...men just need a place.
40
"On the Lovecast, how to talk to your kids about sex with Amy Lang"
I listened to the Lovecast, and there was absolutely no information about how to talk to my son about *sex with Amy Lang*, specifically.
;^>
41
I find it very interesting that, every time the subject of porn comes up, almost no one mentions the fact that porn made by men and for men (read: conventional porn) is, at its core, just fucking degrading to women. The entire paradigm and structure of conventional pornography is 100% a man's world. In the best cases, women in conventional porn are there to serve and please men; women's pleasure is never considered, except as a side note, or to feed the male actor's ego. In the worst cases, women in porn are blatantly abused. No one who has truly analyzed conventional porn and attempted to at least slightly empathize with the female porn actresses can tell me otherwise.

My concern about my male partner watching porn would first and foremost be "Why does he get aroused by unequal power structure, degradation of women, and male domination? What does this say about how he views women in general?" A socially conscious man is a turn-on, but hey maybe that's just me.

Oh and finally, please let's put to rest once and for all this bullshit argument that oral sex is symmetrical for the genders. Cunnilingus is NOT equivalent to fellatio. Classic, conventional fellatio involves insertion of a large object in one's mouth (i.e., penetration). This element is absent in cunniligus; there is no penetrator-penetratee power dynamic. If men could learn to define oral sex as merely LICKING of the penis and/or scrotum, then fine - we can equalize it with cunnilingus. Otherwise, no way is it an equivalent.

42
@Marcelina: No porn and no blow jobs? You sound like a lot of fun.
43
woofcandy... she. signed up today...just to chastise us about the inequality of oral sex.... we've been served. Marcelina, you have tunnel vision.
44
P.S. Try flickering your tongue at high speeds for 30 minutes straight, and then (once you've rested and can move your tongue and jaw again) you can bitch about the woes of having a cock in your mouth.
45
@Marcelina:

"insertion of a large object in one's mouth"

Hey! It isn't THAT big. (Never thought I'd say that in this forum).

Or like the jar next to the coffee shop cash register says, "Just put in the tip and see how it feels."
46
Huh, I would have thought you would want to talk with your kids about sex in general, not just sex with Amy Lang.
47
@WoofCandy: "Try flickering your tongue at high speeds for 30 minutes straight,"

Fingers. And switch hands to prevent RSI.
48
Wow, Marcelina. That's pretty stupid. For someone so keen to tell us what porn and fellatio "really" are, it seems pretty clear that you don't have much experience with either.

"The entire paradigm and structure of conventional pornography is 100% a man's world. In the best cases, women in conventional porn are there to serve and please men; women's pleasure is never considered, except as a side note, or to feed the male actor's ego.

Flip the genders and you have an excellent description of romance novels, which are probably still a bigger industry than porn. For some reason, you don't see a problem here. That's because you're a sexist dolt.
49
My response to WINDOWS' letter is reminiscent of one that Dan gave a while ago:
I'm going to recuse myself because the whole situation is just too fucking hot for me to be impartial.
(which remains one of my all-time favorites.)

I was going to say that the scenario is not unlike an online flirtation, but that doesn't do justice to the inherent tension. A better analogy would be going to the zoo dressed in pork chops and limping back and forth along the fence at the tiger enclosure. In that case though, the tigers are unlikely to follow you home.
50
WoofCandy @44 - If it takes you 30 minutes you're doing it wrong.
51
Eud @48 - Porn involves actual human beings. Men in romance novels are fictional. How you can possibly equate the two is bizarre.

I don't have a dog in this fight - I don't care about men's porn consumption, but if you want an excuse to call someone a "sexist dolt" you'll have to make a better argument.
52
@Holmes: Fingers. And switch hands to prevent RSI.

At this point, I can flicker my tongue for as long as it takes. With enough practice, your muscles develop.

And yes, fingers and thumbs can be nice supplements.
53
For g-spot ladies like myself, fingers are more than just supplements. They are necessities.
54
Marcelena@41; where have you been?
Welcome aboard.
55
@JibeHo: If it takes you 30 minutes you're doing it wrong.

30 minutes on a good day. It took me the entire afternoon last weekend. She had her laptop out at one point. Later she said she was concentrating but I'm pretty sure she was napping.

But I eventually prevailed!
56
WoofCandy @55 - If it's going to take you that long, the key is finding a good angle so your neck and jaw aren't contorted. Kneeling on a pillow at the foot of the bed with her hips even with the edge of the bed can be super comfortable for both parties - assuming the height of the bed is a good match for you. Added bonus - it's impossible to hold a laptop in that position, so the mind will focus better.
57
Pretty sure #55 was kidding, though he didn't add the '...and then she cracked a beer and set it on my head, so I had to work EVEN HARDER at tongueing her while not spilling it.'

Second the 'get a comfortable angle' thing, though a low box or stool works better for me, kneeling for extended amounts of time gets uncomfortable to me.
And hand use! Hands slack, or simply prying her thighs apart = money left onna table. One for inside her, one for the opposite breast. I really should stop going lefty with the boob-hand, someday I'll encounter a girl with a big Uni-boob in the center, and be so lost....
58
@eudaemonic/48: First, I'm not sexist. Conventional pornography is sexist. I somehow don't see anyone, including your dumb ass, putting forth a cogent and logical argument against this. That's because there isn't one. No one can argue that conventional porn promotes a message of gender equality and that it does not mistreat, degrade, hurt, and dehumanize women, and show them as subservient to men. Somehow any time that a woman dares to question the patriarchal power structure, out of the woodwork come pathetic insecure losers like you to call her "sexist." There's absolutely nothing sexist in my original comment; I defy you to find something sexist in it.

Second, your comparison to romance novels is bullshit. Because a) the characters in romance novels are entirely fictional and are not real, feeling, thinking human beings, b) women do not consume romance novels at ANYWHERE NEAR the rate that typical men consume conventional pornography, and c) romance novels do not dehumanize, hurt, or degrade men, nor do they send the message that men are subservient to women. In fact, in pretty much all romance novels, the MALE is aggressive and dominant, not the female.

Give me a fucking break; you gotta do better than that if you want to argue for real.
59
@55 Woof.... I am now convinced you are dating my ex girlfriend. She would bust out the laptop so she could watch porn (she loved standard man porn...girl getting degraded as per Marcelina's angry post) while i was going down on her.... holding a vibrator to her clit.... using a toy or finger inside her.... it was a ton of work. (sorry Jibe...but technique isn't all that matters...sometimes the woman just takes a lot of time to get from start to finish). I'll admit... it was always worth the effort...and sore jaw...and cramping hands.... because i would lose her completely for a few minutes afterword....eyes rolled back, etc. Ah the memories.
60
marcelina - you should stay away from statements like this one: "conventional pornography is 100% a man's world"

my ex (a woman) loved conventional porn more than i did. 100% leaves no room for her in your world view... and undermines the rest of what you say.
61
@ChairmanoftheBored: That your female ex liked conventional porn does not prove that conventional porn does not portray a man's world. I don't care if you find 1,000 women who claim to enjoy conventional porn; it doesn't make what I said untrue. The connection you make isn't logical. So because you find me a black person who likes watching videos of simulated KKK attacks, this proves that those videos aren't degrading? Your ex liked to see women degraded; that doesn't prove that women WEREN'T being degraded just because SHE enjoyed seeing it.

In case you still just don't get it, let me break it down for you. Conventional porn is ALL about the male. Everything uttered and done, in every scene, is for male pleasure and validation. Blow jobs in conventional porn take 20-25 minutes and are jam-packed (no pun intended) with degradation galore: hands on back of woman's head, forceful deep throating, hair pulling, gagging, etc. The poor excuse for cunnilingus (as NO woman could come from the nonsense that is portrayed as cunnilingus in conventional porn) takes 30 seconds. Also, there is no element of degradation there; I have never seen a woman in conventional porn ram a dude's face in her crotch, forcefully grind her genitals on his face, smother him until he can't breathe, and call him degrading names. Males in conventional porn control the action; females never do. Never will you see a female in conventional porn say what she wants, tell the dude to eat her pussy, tell him to switch positions, or have an actual real orgasm. Nor will you ever see a woman in conventional porn degrade or abuse a man.

Yes, conventional porn is 100% a man's world and I would never, ever date a man who watches it. Fortunately, the men *I* go out with are socially conscious men who don't watch conventional porn, who believe in and promote gender equality, and who are, incidentally, FANTASTIC in the sack. There is hot, ethical, female-produced, non-degrading porn out there, but you have to have your mind open a little wider than your fucking asscrack to actually consider watching it.
62
Chairman @59 - Given my position as a lifelong giver and receiver of lady head, I can assure you that technique is indeed the most important thing. Of course I hold an unfair advantage - I'm pretty sure I'm better at it than 99% of men...
63
jibe... no argument there... ha.

marcelina, i see where we are not seeing eye to eye...your definition of conventional porn is what i would call niche porn. Thanks for coming down from your tower long enough to tell us how it is.

p.s. some of the men you are glorifying are lying to you... but you deal in absolutes...so probably won't accept that
64
(fanning myself) Whelp. Thanks for all the lovely cunnilingus-talk, everyone. I don't think my boyfriend will have longer than 30 seconds after walking through the door before I jump him.
65
Marcelina, it appears you don't know what the % symbol means. If even one woman likes porn, then it is not 100% a man's world. In case you're wondering why you seem dumb, well, that's why. Learn what 100% means before saying it, maybe?

@58: "First, I'm not sexist."

Derp. Every sexist says that. Let's see if you immediately prove it's false:

"out of the woodwork come pathetic insecure losers like you to call her "sexist."

Let's see: Uses sexist slurs, while complaining about being called a sexist. Bingo! That didn't take long.

"Nor will you ever see a woman in conventional porn degrade or abuse a man."

Sexist, stupid, and woefully, shamefully uninformed. How did you get to be so ignorant? Does your ignorance feed your sexism, or is it the other way around?
66
Ethically produced porn sounds rather like an oxymoron.. unless it includes six months of work in an unrelated field for the same exact pay and simultaneous therapy.... at the end of which, the potential actor/actress gets to see if they still want to be in porn...

I get that the idea is important... but when it comes to sex....and the studies about the VERY high number of desperate people who participate in porn.... even sugar-coating it with condoms, over-the-top mutual onscreen respect/reciprocation, amazing working conditions, etc... it is impossible to know if someone is participating out of genuine love of the work or out of desperation.
67
@ChairmanoftheBored: And yet you, and countless other people, watch it and are aroused by it to the point of orgasm. You are basically getting off on another human being's torture.
69
@Eudaemonic: Saying "pathetic insecure losers" is not sexist, leotard. You do realize that women can also be pathetic, insecure losers, do you not?

Furthermore, dumbass, find me a scene in a MAINSTREAM, TYPICAL, CONVENTIONAL porn where the woman degrades and dehumanizes a man through her words or actions. I'll wait.

Leotard.
70
@68: That's fitting, considering they suffer about a hundred times more than the male actor does while filming the scene. Duh.

Porn is about the only fucking industry where women actually get paid more than their male counterparts, except that it ISN'T AT ALL for the "same work." What female porn actresses go through on the set of a porno vs. the male actors isn't even comparable.
71
@26: No one mentioned sex addiction until you did...
72
Marcelina.... but your precious snowflake progressive boyfriends only get off on ethical porn...where the only torture is internal. Got it. Just want to make a distinction between overt and covert. You're so right, covert is way more honest.
73
On the subject of blow-jobs. I want to say that a traumatic experience leading to dislike of giving a man head is an "issue"...however these aren't always solvable issues. She was upfront and clear about it (regardless of her reason...here it seems trauma is the only acceptable reason and it should be a temporary reason to those here.)

Being a person whose been sexually abused, a rape victim at the age of 5. I was forced to give my first blow job before I went off to kindergarten. I have never had issue with giving blow jobs. However I consider myself quite lucky. I have other sexual issues and despite years of therapy there are some things for which I am permanently wounded. That's life. This idea that all wounds can be healed is ridiculously false. People can be in good working order but imperfect. And disliking blow jobs while being upfront about it IS good working order.
75
" He says he would never cheat on me because he "doesn't need to." But what does that mean? I think he is a liar. Every time I even try to bring anything up with him, it is flung back in my face because I cheated on him."

Probably because he has more of a reason to distrust you than you do him.
76
@67: "(Y)ou, and countless other people, watch (pornography) and are aroused by it to the point of orgasm."

Just by watching it? Hands free? You overestimate effectiveness of the product and the sexuality of the consumers.
77
interesting article on ethical porn on theguardian website (google theguardian ethical porn...first hit)....

now back to the letters at hand....

78
@67: "You are basically getting off on another human being's torture."

Only the consensual variety, but sure.
79
Ms Cute - If this were Wicked, you would be Shenshen.
80
@38: "...and the science indicates that women are more easily aroused by visuals..."

It was my understanding that a few studies showed that women's genitals self-lubricated at the sight of sexually explicit visuals, but that the women verbally reported that the visuals (e.g. bonobos mating) didn't do anything for them. It could be that they're in denial or embarrassed about having been turned on by hot ape porn. But another hypothesis posited that this was a defensive mechanism to prevent injury in the event of rape.

@44: That sounds excruciating. High speeds, and "flicking"! *Shudder*

I've had women use similar techniques on me. I think the prevalence of clitoral phimosis must be to blame. Just about any woman who's gone after my love button like she's trying to sand a knot off a piece of wood has had clitoral phimosis. I guess she was projected what she wanted onto me. But OUCH!
81
Dan, Dan, Dan! Uninterested, not disinterested. The latter means does NOT mean the opposite of interested; it means something totally different, as in "has no vested interest." The woman in question is uninterested in giving him a blow job; she's not disinterested, at all, because she appears to have quite a vested interest in being uninterested in giving him a blow job.....
82
@41: "My concern about my male partner watching porn would first and foremost be "Why does he get aroused by unequal power structure, degradation of women, and male domination?"

Because boobs. You are seriously overthinking this.

" Classic, conventional fellatio involves insertion of a large object in one's mouth (i.e., penetration). "

I believe the term you are looking for is not "fellatio" but "throat fucking" which is neither classic nor conventional. The average blowjob has all the penetrative traumatic potential of your average soup spoon.
83
Welcome to the fray, Marcelina. I would agree that most of the conventional porn I've seen features, at best, men in control most of the time. Personally, that gets repetitive and boring after a while, and when it's not clear that the woman is having a good time too (sometimes the actresses can't/don't even act like it feels good), it gets disturbing. And yet, there are women - some of them on this forum - who get turned on by being sexually controlled and used by men. I like it myself, as part of an encounter, as long as I get to take turns ...

As a giver of both fellatio and cunnilingus, I have to say each has its ups and downs (pun intended). Fellatio is more physically taxing (sorry, avast, but the average blowjob can lead to unpleasant gagging); cunnilingus has a stronger taste/smell. I have yet to find a guy who didn't like it as deep in as he could get it, or a girl who didn't have me mouth-breathing at least once in a while to reduce the impact. Although, for the record, I'm happy with my current partner and am not looking.

84
Avast. You speak from experience then? Haven given a few blow jobs yourself?
85
Totally fucked that up. It's not haven.
I'll try again.
Avast you speak from experience, then?
Have you given a few blow jobs yourself? And really, spoon? Maybe banana might have conjured up a more precise image.
87
Of course Avast, If you have sucked cock lately,
my humble apologies.
88
I propose a truce: Women will stop being threatened by men's use of porn for masturbation, and men will stop being threatened my women's use of toys for masturbation. Sound fair?

For Michelina and others on the "porn is inherently abusive to women" brigade: Sure, porn acting isn't a job whose working conditions I covet. But neither is scrubbing bathrooms, and someone has to do that too.

Agree with @83 on both types of oral sex presenting their own challenges. Whether one is more difficult than the other depends entirely on the recipient. Personally, I agree with Dan on "oral sex as standard", but WISH's girlfriend doesn't, and that's her prerogative.
89
For fuck's sake, the power dynamic when I'm blowing my husband is with me - after all, he's trusted my mouth with his penis. What if I went bonkers and bit him? In no way is he "inserting" his penis into my waiting mouth. My mouth has plenty of its own agency (although I do find blow jobs fairly hard work, like Still Thinking said at 83). I don't enjoy doing it as much as my husband enjoys giving cunnilingus which he madly loves. And, actually he loves sucking the strap-on too, which I don't really get but I'm more than happy to play along with his bicurious fantasies.
90
I think that déjà vu girl should get herself to a skin doctor. Those big black marks on her Breasts, look worrying.
91
Busy, what a lovely wife you are. He's a lucky man.
92
Fan, scrubbing bathrooms a little different to acting in porn movies. And no. That's a weird truce.
If all porn became about mutual pleasure- then, I'd have no issues with it.
It feels like a lot of porn is just perpetrating the patriarchal need to see females as objects.
Because, as I read it- there is fear of the power of female energy.
Best not let it run riot.
93
@58; Mr E; No. In Romance novels , the men have a lot of agency. Often they off brooding/ hard to get/ running multi national companies etc.
Of course the girl gets the guy. But he is still in his life. In his needs.
Different to porn. Where the female is often Not in her needs at all.
95
Hunter; Whatever.
You talking about porn?
Or real life? You know the difference?
96
Arrrrgh, do we have to go over again how progressive/ sensitive/ feminist men and women can and do enjoy porn and sex with skewed power dynamics? Really, if you're progressive and feminist you're gonna do what your lady wants.

AND I for one don't give any shits about what kind / quantity of porn my guy watches. Masturbation is a special, intimate time with ourselves and I would never take that away from anyone.
97
@69: "Saying "pathetic insecure losers" is not sexist, leotard. You do realize that women can also be pathetic, insecure losers, do you not??"

I figured some idiot would say this. Either you know this is bullshit, or you think "bitch" isn't sexist, because men get called "bitch" sometimes too. Which is it?

Either femdom porn doesn't exist, or at least isn't common, or your beliefs are entirely bullshit. Why not put it to the test? Google "femdom." If your beliefs have any basis in reality, it should only generate a couple of hits.

I suspect you won't do this, because you actually know your beliefs are basically religious bullshit, which is why you're trying to gerrymander definitions once someone called you out on saying things that aren't true.

@88: "I propose a truce: Women will stop being threatened by men's use of porn for masturbation, and men will stop being threatened by women's use of toys for masturbation. Sound fair?"

Sounds fair. It seems all of the men here already made that compromise, but apparently it's not enough. I suspect that's because the other side is totally uninterested in a truce. Which makes sense; they're too used to being able to demand abject surrender.
98
So @96, if your guy was watching kiddy porn, or violent rape porn?
99
@94; Hunter. If the woman likes it. Then all good.
If it's being imposed on her. Not so good.
100
@97: Oh good morning, leotard. I see we're back on the train to Stupidville again. I KNOW that femdom porn exists. My point exactly; it is a VERY narrow niche of pornography. It is NOT by any means considered conventional porn. Which was exactly what I was saying. It isn't the TYPICAL, MAINSTREAM, CONVENTIONAL porn that most males watch. It is a niche. That's my point exactly. Tard. Why don't you rub those two brain cells together and see if you can start a fire?
101
I propose that anyone who has NEVER had a cock inserted in their mouth, vagina, asshole, and/or any other orifice of their body stop waxing lyrical about what penetration is and isn't. Before you run your mouth about blow jobs, the requirement is that you actually have to give one. Before you run your mouth about getting fucked, the requirement is that you actually have to get fucked. Until then, STFU.
102
I think Dan has a very warped sense of humour. Putting a porn question up over Easter.
Surely there must be some questions re crucifixion/ resurrection kinks in that
Mail bag of his.
103
@101; Marcelena. Think you covered all the orifices. Where else could a cock be put? Be a pretty small one to go in the ear or nose. Only orifices left. At least on my body.
104
Is the power dynamic different for women in the classic - on your knees - blowjob position different for women than maybe when the man is lying down with the woman on top? What do women think?
105
Eudaemonic and Marcelina proving that no gender is better than the other when it comes to being a judgmental dick.

Happy Easter, everyone else!
106
Watch whatever porn you like Mr E;
Like I don't care. The porn question is dead. Long live the porn question.