I apologize for the off-topic post, but it seems that my Gloria Steinem TribalWhistle (TM) is on the fritz. For all my fellow Kind of People (and you know who you are!) the weekly cabal is meeting RIGHT NOW on SnapChat. For those of you that didn't get the memo, we had to abandon Tumblr and Twitter because someone - I'm not naming names (jade!) - let the cat out of the bag. Ugh.

@209: "However it's also sex shaming to tell Caya that he should divorce a wife who only likes missionary."

Ah, so you admit you were lying when you falsely claimed I said anything about what his wife should or shouldn't do? That's progress, I guess. But now you're instead trying to obscure the fact that Estarianne's whole point is that she gets to decide who other people sleep with, rather than those people getting to make their own decisions. That's what rape is.

Sex shaming is indeed different from rape advocacy, and to equate me and Estarianne, you first lied about what I said, and now you're lying about what she said, while lying less about what I said. Work on yourself until justifying your opinion no longer requires lies, and you'll become worth talking to.

For the benefit of anyone sensible who didn't already know this, no, telling LW to divorce an incompatible partner who also doesn't care much about the LW's pleasure is not sex shaming. Duh. Both of those things are divorce-worthy.

Phil, this would be really obvious to you if you thought men were people. If you did, you'd understand that women aren't the only ones with preferences that should be respected. A woman who's married to a man she's not compatible with doesn't get to be divorce-immune just because she's a woman. Duh.

If this is one of the new standards you're advocating, though, okay: Henceforth, women are also not allowed to divorce anyone because of a partner's sexual behavior or lack thereof. No divorce for you, o woman who's partner no longer believes in foreplay. That would be sex shaming, after all!

Suddenly, your new rule seems pretty terrible, doesn't it? That's 'cause you're a hypocrite, and it's ridiculous that you didn't see this coming. Any rule you try to apply to other people should also be applied to you. That's not really hard to understand, if you let yourself.

Dear Eud - You can always be relied upon to sputter into incoherency after the word 'liar' or 'rape'. Oh and carry on with the male nickname... I just found out I'm a man since I like orgasming a lot, so I may as well get used to it.

Anyway, I'm not a liar, I'm referring to these words of yours:
CAYA seems to be conflating two "problems," one of which is real and one isn't: The first is that she's an eyes-closed type (not a problem; get over it dude), and the second is that she's a no-foreplay, missionary-only type (huge problem, break up).
And calling them sex shaming. Because they are. CAYA is free to divorce her for any reason that makes him happy, if he needs an open-eyed woman that should not be shamed, he should be encouraged to be himself. And there's nothing in the letter that says the wife ever does missionary, let alone only does missionary, and the no foreplay is from thin air as well. Calling these divorce-worthy prefs doesn't make sense unless you're dissing sex acts you don't like. Sex shaming. But people who just like missionary are ok. It's not just who is raping you that matters; your wife can rape you too. It depends on what you're pushing someone to do sexually, more than who is doing it.

I can't believe you duh-ed me. I feel like I'm 5. I want an inkpot to throw at you.

#206

I disagree only that this group is small or restricted to tumblr or twitter; I don't have any contact with either of those things, but this group has been omnipresent, in my experience, and anything but small, and for a long time before either of those existed. If they've colonized those platforms, it's only because they colonize everything.

I admit that I hesitated when I typed "small." I can't tell you the number of times I've enjoyed a book, a painting, a speech, or a show only to be told the next day by The Left why I should have been outraged and offended by it.

JibeHo @201
>> Why is it okay for any trans person to state a preference for a particular gender (and presumably whatever genitalia that implies), but it's not okay for the cis lesbian? >>

Transwomen are the same gender as ciswomen. Not all ciswomen have standard, functioning genitals. Yes, people with non-standard equipment should mention that before the clothes come off.

Myself @214 They should mention it before the other person has invested a lot of time or other resources into the budding relationship. Putting off sex (to avoid the genital conversation) while building emotional connection is unfair to the other person.

Mr Cat - (Victorian? I rarely invoke Mr Wilde - are you counting Mrs Woolf?) Consider it a bit of minor exasperation. I have some admiration for the aristocratically oblivious air that I infer behind many of your explicit posts, but I could never get away with posting a twentieth part of those posts of yours that have half the women here swooning in response and will put you and Ms Cute at #2 on the Power Couples List if she renounces Mr Bloomer.

If we could ever meet on neutral ground, we'd probably get on better.

I am not in agreement with Ms Star. I had to fight a great deal harder than most people here for the right to my own monosexuality. I've just seen a fair amount of discussion between trans people that touches on what they consider ally behaviour and what they don't. I could go so far as to guess that Mr Savage's opinion about what online dating is like for trans people could be supported by substantial email evidence.

I think Ms Cute and I both take ally status seriously in different ways. I'm loath to offer my Alliance out, as I take a large part of that to entail some surrender of autonomy of thought and the acceptance of what can be generalized into PartyThink in its place. For me, there's a sort of air of religious conversion about Alliance for which I'm an insufficiently religious type. Ms Cute seems to trust the people she wants to Ally to value her pure (or at least good) heart and motives and not to turn on her. If she'll allow me, I'll just wish her good luck.

@212: "I can't believe you duh-ed me. I feel like I'm 5."

What a coincidence; I also feel like you're 5.

"It depends on what you're pushing someone to do sexually, more than who is doing it."

You're back to the previous lie, of claiming I said what Caya's wife should do. Which you already admitted that I didn't; it's not just that you're a liar, it's that you're so stupid about it.
His wife doesn't want the kind of sex he does, and isn't interested in doing anything about it; he should get a divorce. He doesn't have to stay married to her. If you understood that he is a person, this wouldn't be confusing to you. Rights aren't zero-sum; morality isn't about deciding which people count and which don't. That's tribalism, not morality.
All people are people. There are no people you don't get to treat as persons; you think you're fighting to decide which people those are, but they don't exist.

@213: Yeah. Sympathy. So much gets lost because of the people who are in the constant struggle to be the one in the mob with the tallest pitchfork and the biggest torch, and don't care in the slightest who the mob's targeting, as long as it isn't themselves or anyone who looks too much like them. Some of them grow out of it, eventually, but a lot of them don't.

Eud - That quote of yours was sex shaming. It's ok that you're not perfect.

JEEBY @201
Warning/guarantee: Some more confusion may be coming your way...
So after I replied to your other post I went to bed and as I was turning and thinking about the "issues", thinking only this time- not masturbating for a change, I realized something: in the few times when I did place a more kink/sex specific ad, as opposed to general "dating," some of the best responses have arrived from trans man. Those have led to actual meetings and in some cases even more. I think part of the mutual attraction may be the fantasy camaraderie, "I'll treat you like a lady, you treat me like a man” and vice versa.
I was also approached in person by couple of lesbians who have already seen me in my female persona in different functions.

Now back to those kinky ads: most people replying to mine were actually men who ignored my written preferences. They were all contacted, thanked for their interest, and politely reminded that I am interested in meeting the people I actually said I'm looking for.

@194 - Miracles - the perfect ass vs warm personality was meant as a joke.... to highlight the bullshit stance that hidden attributes are by definition more important than ones that are out in the open. I figured enough of my posts had been read over the past year to get away with it and not have anyone think it was anything more than tongue-in-cheek. I call that stance bullshit simply because we each get to decide for ourselves.... i.e. it is not a rule... no matter how loudly people say real beauty is on the inside

Phil, I'm obviously not perfect, and you don't seem to understand anything about me, but I guess that's common enough; people like you don't like understanding things.

@Jibe 201 - I havent re-read every single Estarianne post this week to see if what i am about to say is 100% accurate.... but....

I don't get the impression that she is prioritizing trans people specifically... rather... she is taking a 100% inclusion stance... (sounds great on paper... or for other people....)

@221: I was hoping to gain some understanding of you, but I guess that will never happen, not when you prefer to take a challenge to your own behaviour, turn it around and change it into baseless and backwards accusations about the person challenging you. Based on past interactions, your resorting to the word "lying" is not surprising. The allegations you've made up about what I supposedly believe are too ridiculous to respond to. So I shall go back to worrying about more important things and bid you good day.

Eud - I know that you're generally incredibly rude to me, speaking to me like a 5 year old (duh!), calling me names (liar), telling me how you think I feel (wtf), choosing a nickname you know I dislike (phil). If you are the type who likes to understand, you might read this and think about why you need to be rude to me online. Why you need to diss me, instead of some specific opinion of mine.

#216, that was perfectly well said, I don’t know that we aren’t getting on, minus a little static, and I thank you for your measured reply. Sending a brandy down the bar your way. I agree with your definition of Ally-Hood.

OK, NoCute, you heard him, you now have 30 days to get to the DMV, change your license.
‘Organ Donor - Check’
‘Power-Coupled with - CatBrother.’
Do it quick, before you get pulled over.

Hey #210 Jibe, that’s the question, yeah? Waiting to see if there’s a reply, or if she just moves to a trench further back. Hey, did you ride your go-cart literally on McLean streets, or just on a track or something? Did you make it yourself, or was it a kit from Boy’s Life? I remember thinking that go-carts were the coolest thing evah, but I had no way of the know-how to put one together.

Philo - He's does it to obfuscate the actual issues, monopolize the conversation and most importantly - control the vocabulary. Look how many people have redirected their energies in his direction. It must be invigorating and incredibly validating for him. As soon as he starts with the cries of rape and liar he should be summarily ignored. That would drive his 5 year old self crazy!

Unfortunately I think jade was on to something. I think Eud has a long game but the rest of us can't see the goal line. I liken it to Republicans putting all their money and effort into the 2010 midterms so that they could redraw congressional districts in order to control federal and state legislatures well into the next decade. Brilliant strategy that...

Cat - We did drive it on the streets when the lady on the corner wasn't home - she'd call the cops. Steve Rowzee (sp?) actually wrecked it after he took a turn too fast and came bumper (more like face) to bumper with one of my neighbors coming home from work. The brakes worked that one last time and nevermore :(

Actually the creepy neighbor down the street had the go kart sitting in his car port. It belonged to his teenage sons who'd moved out of the house years before. My best buddy Patrick and I finally got up the nerve to ask creepy old man (he was ALWAYS throwing Playboy magazines out in his trash!) if we could buy it. He said $50. It took us months to steal that much change from our mom's purses. When we got it we took it to my basement in the middle of winter and after a couple of weeks finally got it started. The first time I rode it was on Rupert and the street was covered in snow.

Good times! Oh, and I also made 4 or 5 wooden go-karts - you know - hill powered. Not as exciting but still tons of fun. McLean was a great place to be a kid in the 70's.

@JibeHo: Well, first off, you're making a lot of assumptions about what women seeking women on a dating site are going to be into? A lot of them are going to be bi or queer rather than lesbian, and while that doesn't necessarily mean they'll be open to dating trans women, it does mean that they probably don't have any super strict preferences for genitalia. Not all of the lesbians will have super strict preferences for genitalia either - like, even if we're just talking about the physical, there are other standard differences between women and men besides just genitalia, and those traits are going to be more of a dealbreaker for some lesbians than genitals are. Also, if a trans woman has had reassignment surgery, it's not like her genitals are going to be that different from a cis woman's anyway. She'll need lube to get wet, but... so do a lot of cis women. It's definitely okay to have a super strict genitalia preference, so please don't take this as me saying I think it's not! But not everyone is that way, either, and that's also okay.

Also, trans men generally take testosterone and get chest surgery. Here's a link about what testosterone actually does to you: http://www.ftmguide.org/ttherapybasics.h… So basically, trans dudes are going to be boobless, hairy, and a bunch of other things that are going to appeal much more to people who like men than to people who like only women. Most lesbians are probably not going to want to date straight trans men for those reasons, even if they have vaginas. Similarly, straight trans guys are probably also not going to want to date each other.

Phil and JibeHo, next time you're accusing other people of content-free sniping, think a little harder. Projection isn't as good a strategy as you think. Phil, given that you're guessing I don't like "eud," your whining about being called something you dislike is astonishingly stupid. You really don't grasp the concept of acting the way you want other people to act, do you? Accusing people of acting the way you're acting was clever when Karl Rove did it, but less clever when you copy it.

JibeHo, it's hilarious that you accuse me of trying to control the vocabulary. Jesus christ that's literally the only thing you've done in this thread. Sheesh. Remember that time you literally demanded that I stop using a word, and tried to blackmail me into obeying? Wow. You're my new record for public hypocrisy and total lack of self-awareness. And that's pretty impressive.

Live up to your own standards. It's absurd, but darkly humorous, that you both think this very notion is so offensive.

Eud - you have a self-defeating streak in you... like you are simultaneously shouting "listen to me" and "you're too stupid to understand me".

In my opinion, the problem with trying to police equality from the middle is that the oppressed want the pendulum to swing a bit in their favor before it swings back to the middle (a notion I have no problem with)... and you appear to think that you can just call it even and move forward from that point... then you (righteously ONLY if taken in a vacuum) call out the other side for bigotry. We don't live in a vacuum. Society has a habit of over-correcting before finding equilibrium.

@230: It should be obvious that I'm not trying to convince either JibeHo, Phil, BDF, or any of the other unprincipled tribalists; trying to convince them implies that I thought they actually had beliefs, which they clearly don't. If they did, they'd act like it, rather than forgetting all of their feigned principles the moment that they'd get in the way of shitting on the Other.

This isn't about oppression; none of them gives a shit about that, obviously, or about anything else other than hurting people who aren't like themselves and congratulating each other about it. Whatever their current lie is, it's just a lie, and it'll be discarded the instant a different lie feels more useful to the lizard parts of their brains.

I don't want a world in which shits like them engage in constant displays of public hypocrisy with no one calling them on it. I don't want a world in which their victims think they deserve it, or that no one will stand up for them.

And I don't take tactical advice from people who want what I don't want.

Miracles - Personally I like self-lubricating vaginas - the wetter the better actually. I don't claim to speak for all lesbians, but there are a significant number, dare I say the majority, who like cis women exclusively. I count myself as one of them. Those are the lesbians I'm talking about.

Really though, my post was for Estar. I was curious about what preferences/deal breakers she feels trans persons are allowed to have, or if she thinks that we should all just post personals seeking "people" instead of a specific gender...

Eudaemonic - I meant no offense with your name, as you imply. You had never indicated you disliked it. But now I would like to say very clearly, with the same disregard for your intelligence that is always implied when I address the perpetually rude. FUCK YOU

#227 - Steve Rowzee...name I haven’t heard in a long time, as they say in the movies. Just remember that he was blond, built like a fireplug, and wore a retro motoring/Greek fisherman's cap during high school. One of the jocks that I stayed way away from, don’t know if he was one of the good guys or an utter tool (WIllie Manion, redheaded asshole). Hoping the former, guess he was, if you let him drive the kart.

When you say that you prefer cis women, I’m...a bit confused. Did I turn two pages at once, or doesn’t cis mean ‘heterosexual?’
Big ups for lube over here, but I’m sure your experience confirms that past 45, its absence is just a biological rather than a moral failing.

Phil, some honesty, at last. This is almost the only comment I've ever seen of substance from you, rather than trying to hide an identical message behind poorly-executed bullshit. Pure hate, because someone isn't conforming and you can't tolerate that. I mean, it calls into question your whole life, which is wasted in trying to accumulate more conformity-points than the next moron over.

Hate is all you've got, because you decided that nothing mattered other than winning at the hate-game. If you were smarter, you'd realize that there is no winning it. The crazy peasant with the biggest pitchfork and the biggest torch is still just an asshole in a mob. Everyone who, like you, is eyeing their neighbor's pitchfork and aspiring to nothing other than having a bigger one, is aspiring to crap. Maybe one day you'll aspire to something that's actually worth being--some of you grow out of it--but you're so dedicated to pretending that nothing else matters that you probably won't.

Cat - Maybe I'm confused. I thought cis meant unaltered parts. Wtf do I know, I hope I'm using it correctly, otherwise none of my posts make any sense whatsoever!

Steve wasn't from my hood, but he was BFFs with one of the boys I hung out with. Of course, once the hormones kicked in I never really saw them again, and I certainly didn't hang with them in high school. I have friends who swear the Manion's are an awesome group, but Moira bullied me relentlessly all through middle school - I couldn't use the restroom at Longfellow it got so bad - so I don't have anything nice to say about them :)

Philophile.... in honor of your handle... i think you should go with Phuck You instead.

Cis or Cisgender has nothing to do with orientation; it's the condition of having your biological sex and internal sense of gender align.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

So I was born a biological female, in that I have two x chromosomes, ovaries, a uterus and a vagina. And I have always felt myself to be a female. I identify as a woman. And the rest of the world perceives me as female, too. There's your cisgender for you. It doesn't matter whom I'm sexually attracted to.

Re: self-lubricating stopping at 45. Well, I'm 52, and still waiting for that to happen--or not, really. In fact, I kind of have the opposite condition. And some women, for a variety of reasons, have difficulty producing enough natural lubrication when they're young.

cis means junk at birth aligns with gender of brain

#236 - Looked it up, you're right. I guess that preference is something we both have in common. We should hit the DC bars sometime....
Not surprising about Moira, bet her brother was being a bastard to her, 'those to whom evil is done, do evil in return.' Not that that excuses her. Many times wanted to run into those guys now, when time/nature/genetics aren't giving them a helping hand.

"Sailing a dick up a vaginal passage",
Dan says. Sailing?
Tell you, reading thru all these words here this morning, better take me closer to enlightenment.

Juicy twats, oh. Maybe that's where Dan's sailing analogy makes a little sense.

Wonder if Jennifer above, what with her surly cheks, gets much sailing time in?
Little known fact, Styx released 'Juicy Twats' in '76. Limited release, decidedly mixed reviews...They reworked it with more nautical jargon for '77, but it just wasn't the same, man. Not the same.
Picturing a clitoris with a Long John Silver hat, "Come sail away with me, lad..."

Thank Cat - now i am picturing Captain Organ.

@ChairmanOfTheBored/139, you hit a home run with input!

Backing up what several other female commenters have been saying to CAYA: I also have to shut my eyes while manually stimulating myself in order to cum. I have to shut my eyes in order to focus. I'm not even fantasizing during this time, because fantasizing would take me off into my head and away from the sensation. Your wife sounds just like me--I'm GGG, but I'm also super vanilla. I don't have any fetishes and few fantasies. I'm willing to try a lot of things to please my partner, and I love seeing my partner turned on, but I'm not going to be personally turned on by it, and I'm still going to need to do my usual thing in order to cum myself.

No CatB. Juicy Twats, was a song?
@247; it is a precarious balance, to keep the fantasy going in my head while feeling the coming orgasm. Often I have to change fantasies mid play, oh quick,
Up the story.

It's interesting that the second letter inspired such heated debate about desire in the comments section when the letter writer was asking about ally-status. If you want to be the "perfect ally" I think Dan's advice was fair. What an ally must do will depend on the person you're talking to so if you're trying your best to please everyone you should play it safe and take the road of least offense.

#248 - Yeah, hard to find now, as Styx tried to erase all copies of it, and most of the techies and session musicians have either disappeared or died under mysterious circumstances. While Wu Tang Ain't Nothing to Fuck With, even they fear Dennis DeYoung.
"Plumb juicy twats,
Plumb juicy twats,
Plumb juicy twats with me, lad ..."
Originally more pirate talk involving men in boats, and they left out the part about the starship.
Wow, it's Happy Hour already!

You can use my name CatB; you won't get into too much trouble( I hope).
Nice chorus.
Starships? Now hold on a minute.

"Your wife is fantasizing about something when she closes her eyes and starts rubbing her clit."

Eh, she could just be focusing on the sensation. I don't think that's a given.

I just remembered there was a recent debate about this very point -- whether it's bad progressivism to refuse to fuck trans women as a lesbian. A gold-star lesbian porn actress and director (Lily Cade, I believe) got shouted at on Twitter for not having and, in response to queries, refusing to have in future, trans women in her movies, in which she and her wife perform and have sex with other (cis) women. (I can't remember whether hairs were split over genital status; the specific trans woman performer offering to be in her movies did have a penis, and I believe it was penises she repeatedly said she wasn't interested in.) IIRC, the woman didn't always express herself amazingly well, but people were actually accusing her of being a bigot and a prejudiced employer for not wanting to have sex, herself, with trans women, including the particular trans woman leading the charge.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised anymore if people want to make a political statement with someone else's body, but I am.

Hi undead; you done the cruise then? You hitched? Hope you waved.

I am surprised Dan suggested Not putting ciswoman wanting ciswoman on one's dating profile. Otherwise one isn't an ally to trans women.
Sorry Dan. But to me, that suggestion of yours is way out of line.
Being an ally means one supports and protects the rights of Trans people. Doesn't mean one lies to them.

Not at all clear what you mean by that Hunter.
" Most cis women don't know
they are". Are what?

Does everyone realize that for letter #1 his answer was a list of possible things. It's an "or" list, not an "and" list.

Frankly if he's being that pushy of a jerk the fact of the matter is she may have lost some attraction to the guy. You can find someone hot but if they are a complete asshole to you then that attraction can and will diminish.

Also, rubbing a clit and FLOGGING the female genital region are two completely different sensations. Jesus...

"I guess I don't understand the focus on genitalia."

Dudes get dumped because their dick isn't big enough, let alone impotent.

People have preferences.

Eudaemonic is having an obtuse tantrum? SHOCKING.

Hunter, that makes it so much clearer. I'm not going to ask you to elaborate, because, I fear what you might say.

BTW, nocutename @161: Platonic air kisses, thanks for the compliment!

@262 I think Hunter was saying most cis women have never heard the term -- I think at 256 he was saying the same is true of cis men. Seems probable to me -- we've had to explain 'cis' once in this very thread to a fairly regular Dan-reader after all. That terminology hasn't permeated the mainstream entirely yet.

Thanks Fez.

True re the term cis. I'd never heard of it untill I started reading SL. And I dont see it written anywhere in the Australian press.

Eud - "The crazy peasant with the biggest pitchfork and the biggest torch is still just an asshole in a mob"

thanks for that one. Its pretty damn funny. (along with the visual it provided)

"Sooner or later... that warm personality is going to grate on me.... but that perfect ass never will..."

Can't agree with you there, Chairman.
My ex was a perfect ass, and he grated on me eventually.

good thing i have a perfect ass AND a warm personality

Chairman, I don't know if your ass is perfect, but he's definitely kind of cute with a little happily quizzical expression.

Is anyone else sensing a certain disconnect in CIS' letter?

" I've tried to remain open, but I have never been attracted to a trans woman. I don't rule out the possibility that it could happen. [...] I'd rather not unknowingly walk into these potentially awkward and painful situations."

If dating a trans woman is not her first preference, but is also not a deal-breaker -- as implied by "I don't rule out the possibility" -- then why would a meet and greet necessarily be "awkward and painful"?

I've had any number of meet and greets where romance just wasn't in the cards, despite my extraordinary attractiveness. We all survived.

In a couple of instances, I became platonic friends with the gentlemen. In no instance was the meet and greet *so* bad that chatting pleasantly for half an hour over a cup of coffee in a public place was "awkward and painful".

Also, I don't claim to be any sort of expert on trans people, but I'm pretty sure that they're not mind-readers. Nobody can reasonably be expected to read a dating profile and guess the person's unstated preferences. If your profile states that you're available, it seems not entirely fair to object because someone to whom you're not attracted took you at your word.

CIS doesn't get to have it both ways here. If she's *really* opposed to dating a trans person, then she needs to bite the bullet, own her shit, and put something to that effect in her dating profile (hopefully as tactfully as possible). If she's not willing to do that, then she needs to accept that she's going to meet people to whom she's not attracted -- for whatever reason or combination of reasons -- because that's what a meet and greet is for, and that's how online dating works.

Just remember Chairman, if you sit on it
Too much of the time, an ass won't be perfect for too long.

my ass is perfect....

actually...i'm over selling him.... his humility is his best quality...so he says...but he wont shut up about it.... gets tiring

CAY sounds like a real drag of a sexual partner. What a bummer it is that he has to give direct oral stimulation for her to orgasm. He wants to push boundaries and she's not interested in what what his kinks are. Maybe he is just a pushy asshole who doesn't want to do what it takes to graciously help his wife cross the finish line. That's sure what it sounds like to me. I bet he's a selfish fuck, that is how he comes across in his letter. He should dump his wife, so they can both get to business of finding someone to meet their needs.

@273 She doesn't need oral stimulation from him. She needs clitoral stimulation from someone or something. I'm that way. The difference between her husband and mine is that mine doesn't think he gets to dictate how I orgasm. He also loves my orgasms. He loves that we get to share each others orgasms.

And Zues bless the poor poster whose husband thinks he gets to tell her she can't close her eyes during sex.

Jerks like this set the "good man" bar so low.

I suspect that CAYA is beyond hope. He does not seem very giving or open minded himself. But in case that is not the case...

If he gives he good blowjobs and learns how to give her incredible orgasms first (with her eyes open, closed or however she wants her eyes) before they have the PIV he is likely to want, then he could ask her to keep her eyes open while they do that - after she has come and before it becomes about his dick and his wants. If she has already had a great orgasm, with someone giving and into it, she may well be more inclined, open to and desirous of giving back what he wants.

Once they have regular vanilla sex down and she is getting what she wants too with no hassles about it; once they are connecting and giving and enjoying what may be the basics, then it could be time to introduce more. You don't want to break out the leather pig mask until a person trusts you and knows that you care about what they want too (you have to care for it to work).

Likely CAYA has no idea how to give oral sex. The Vice Guide to Eating Pussy is good for clueless dudeley men. Get into it and come up smiling. Aim to look like a soppy mouthed saint bernard the first few times and at least you can give yourself points for enthusiasm until you figure out how to do it right. Expect it to take 45 minutes and hurt your jaw or whatever if that's what it's going to take the first few times. Ideally ask questions and if you feel you can't ask, listen for the signs that you are doing something she enjoys, then do more of that. If you are shitty at giving oral sex because you can't be bothered, then you shouldn't be asking for anything yourself. Knowing how to give head is a basic skill that everyone should know. Like how to sew on a button, tie your shoes or program a VCR. All the dials and switches and knobs and nerve endings are right there. Figuring out how to operate them is both self serving (more, better sex) and great for your partner.

I love dan but sometimes this place becomes incomprehensible to me with its cries of MRAs, femi-nazis and rape culture.

In regard to the lesbian, what stuck me is that she said she is attracted to some trans women. Then why put "cis" only to rule out the ones she does like? I like tall men, but I am very short. When on line dating I adjusted the height options to include shorter men. That's how I met the love of my life. And I very much doubt she is being mobbed by trans women. Trans aren't all that common. That said, I fully support her right to like what she likes. I fully support her not wanting to waste time on trans women if she wouldn't sleep with one. Unfortunately putting cis only or no trans well offend people but that always happens.

I do think people discount the power of what an attractive personality can do. I remember looking at this short square guy across the parking lot and thinking "not my type. " But he made me laugh.

I think the name calling simply shuts down the discussion. No one can hear anyone else once it happens. At that point people become more interested in defending their plot of land than understanding anyone else. There is your tribalism for you.

Get into it and come up smiling-
Another perfect bumper sticker.

For some reason yesterday I got to thinking of Wicked and the incomprehensibility to Elphaba (when, looking into the glass Turtle Heart made for her in her childhood, she sees scenes from the Wizard's life in Kansas) of the sign NO IRISH NEED APPLY and his despondency.

I'm not sure why, but this is depressing me again, especially on top of what the Slate crowd has dreamed up now, trying to sell the idea of preserving gay culture by divorcing it from homosexuality. This idea has put me back into full Cassandra mode. The first thing the straight hordes they're so desperate to admit will do *when there are enough of them with Member status instead of Worthy Guest* is get rid of all the homonormativity. (We can even thank Mr Savage for the near-case in point of Heterowe'en.) Please, please, no.

Venn, you worry too much and read too many web sites. It's never gonna happen. While boys/ men
fuck boys/ men, the culture will reflect the activity.
And the activity, of males fucking each other, isn't gonna change.
University days Venn. Radical time. Lots of ideas float around. Good for them.
It's not the real world Venn.

Mr Ven - This is off topic, but I had to jump in to say that I finally understand one of your literary references. I got the book along with tickets to the Broadway show for Christmas years ago. Since then I've seen the show 13 times. It's kind of a joke in my family.

172- Nocute-- Your story has been sitting in the back of my mind since you wrote it. I'd love to believe that Geezer got the point that it's wrong to continue hitting on someone who has repeatedly politely turned you down. I'd even love to believe that Geezer got the point that pulling the race card is wrong when the real reason for the rejection was age. The trouble is that I'm afraid the only reason Geezer was humiliated was that he realized he'd been hitting on a woman who was already taken; he got caught poaching (or trying to poach) someone else's property when the owner of said property was sitting right there. He may have walked out of that encounter thinking "Damn! I'm sure she would have slept with me if Tony weren't there."

How old was your host? Let's put male/female interactions aside for a moment and go to the responsibilities of a host/ess. I can make an excuse for someone young and new to entertaining. But once the host is past the age of about 25, I think they bear some responsibility for making sure a guest in their home doesn't have to put up with what you did. Something along the lines of taking Geezer aside and saying "knock it off" was in order. Certainly not leaving you with the impression that sleeping with Geezer was condoned or even necessary for continued hospitality.

Crinoline, I think you're thinking this was a bigger deal than I think any of the participants saw it as.
I was staying at a stranger's house, as were several other people. We weren't friends previously and he was under no obligation to us in any way. We mostly did our own things. My host was in his early 40s, and most of us who were staying with him were in our 20s.
The older man wasn't staying with my host. He was an acquaintance--the brother of a friend of my host's. He was in town for a day or two and called his brother's friend. They two men arranged to go out for dinner at a restaurant and my host invited any-and everyone who might want to go to come along. There were at least 10 people at the restaurant, and I'm not even sure that my host was seated near enough to us to realize what was going on. In any case, I wouldn't have considered it his responsibility to keep some guy from hitting on me. He was only my host in his house, I suppose you'd say; we were all free agents at the restaurant.

All this happened at the restaurant over the course of a single meal--maybe two hours, tops. I wasn't traumatized by it. I didn't then and don't now consider they come ons of the older man something I "ha[d] to put up with." They were just irritating. And I handled myself just fine.
Lastly, I really don't care what message the geezer took away from the encounter. He was unlikely to learn any kind of lesson no matter what. He was an older man hitting on a younger woman and using every trick at his disposal to get her to be receptive to him--nothing all that unusual. A man like that was not going to learn anything from one rejection. I cared that (a) he stopped and (b) he couldn't succeed in painting me as a racist because I didn't want to have sex with him. Both my goals were met. Success!

172, 282, 284 CringeOnLine and Noke
I suspect the reason the old panther got so frustrated is probably because he had it so easy with liberal white women here in the USA, especially when he was a young "revolutionist" back in the 60's and 70's..

"A man like that was not going to learn anything from one rejection. I cared that (a) he stopped and (b) he couldn't succeed in painting me as a racist because I didn't want to have sex with him. Both my goals were met. Success!"

Bravo!
Guys* like this *[disclaimer: there may also be gals like this, but the only ones I personally have encountered are guys] deserve to be shut down. If they weren't such jerks, I'd pity them, and I mean that sincerely.

Trying to put the moves on somebody? Fine. Not taking No for an answer unless it's shouted in your face. Not fine.

But trying to *guilt-trip* someone into sex? Rilly, dude? Now you're just embarrassing.

Nocute-- Thanks for the clarification.

I love dan but sometimes this place becomes incomprehensible to me with its cries of MRAs, femi-nazis and rape culture.

In regard to the lesbian, what stuck me is that she said she is attracted to some trans women. Then why put "cis" only to rule out the ones she does like? I like tall men, but I am very short. When on line dating I adjusted the height options to include shorter men. That's how I met the love of my life. And I very much doubt she is being mobbed by trans women. Trans aren't all that common. That said, I fully support her right to like what she likes. I fully support her not wanting to waste time on trans women if she wouldn't sleep with one. Unfortunately putting cis only or no trans well offend people but that always happens.

I do think people discount the power of what an attractive personality can do. I remember looking at this short square guy across the parking lot and thinking "not my type. " But he made me laugh.

@288: I'm curious how you came up with your interpretation that CAYA's wife doesn't allow anything besides manual stimulation. Maybe they do all sorts of the usual vanilla-type things but the only way she gets off is through manual.
That's certainly how I read it.

He does phrase his question in a difficult to fully understand, Hunter.
Though I do agree, his wife is not letting go of something.
One wonders how he talks with her sexually. The exasperated tone in his words, sure would put me off, if I was the wife.
So he has to loosen up a bit as well.

Hunter: This is what I read:
"My wife is one of those women who need manual stimulation of her clit during sex to climax.
when we are having sex, she's so fixated on stimulating her clit, it's almost like we are in two different worlds. When she's working toward an orgasm, her eyes are shut and she's concentrating on the rubbing—whether she's doing it or I am."

I interpreted that to mean that they do other things from time to time when they have sex but when she wants to come she focuses on her clit and turns inward. I have a lot of sex during which I'm simply enjoying what we're doing or enjoying my partner's enjoyment and not necessarily working toward an orgasm. When I'm having that kind of sex, I'm much more communicative and experimental and outward-focused. But sometimes, when I want to come, I turn rather inward and I can see how I might seem to disengage. But that's not the whole time. I assumed that that's what CAYA's wife is doing. I certainly didn't read his letter as saying she won't allow him to go down on her.
I could be wrong; I could be projecting. A few months ago I briefly dated a man who was completely and solely focused on his own dick--sometimes I doubted whether he remembered there was anyone else in the room with him. It was not very appealing.

Re encouraging women to give short guys a chance (@197)
If a friend came to me and said, "I met this awesome guy who I really like but he's short and I don't date short guys," I would encourage her to give him a chance. However, if she came back from a date and just said that the guy was too short, such encouragement would not be at all appropriate. It doesn't matter that personally I don't care about my dates' height - for whatever reason she does and it would not make any sense to try to convince her otherwise.

I think the same standard should be applied here. The LW didn't write that she's conflicted about this person who she likes but whose genitals don't meet her preference. It doesn't matter if maybe she could actually end up being attracted to a trans person. It's her decision.

@275; you serious? 45 minutes having a man eat me? Then he fucks me. That doesn't sound like good ( my) pussy care to me.

Dan, was it really necessary to suggest to the poor guy that his wife might not be attracted to him? I know it can be hard for men to understand but women are often not visually wired sexually and they it easier to concentrate and reach climax if they shut down the visual input. Not because they don't find the sight of their partner arousing but because they find any visuals distracting at that time.

Look if your time's precious to you and you're not into trans women then put "not into trans women" in your profile. You might as well save both them and you the time and effort to meet up when you know nothing will come of it. Yes, some people might not like that, but so what? People set dating conditions in online profiles all the time.

I'm returning from the land of the reading but not commenting because, generally, by the time I thought of a worthwhile comment, an entire week had already passed. Re CIS's desire to limit her dating/fucking pool to exclude Transwomen, she can tailor her profile/expectations in a way that should narrow the pool without causing hurt feelings. How? By saying she's seeking women who are short, stating a range of perhaps 4 inches (say, 5'2"-5'6"). It's not a perfect solution, but a practical one.

As for her worrying about losing ally cred ... well, she might want to consider that plenty of straight people are GLBT allies in the fight for rights, equal marriage, etc., but that certainly doesn't mean anyone expects them to have sex in order to prove it. Support and friendship OTOH are vital. So, if CIS is sincere in her ally identity, there are many ways she can show it.

Ugh. I think this is the first time I experienced the dizzying scrolling down. Not a happy camper up in Canada-land.

@300 >>5'2"-5'6">>
Briiliant! And by avoiding saying explicitly that transwomen aren't "real" for her purposes, she avoids needlessly hurting anyone's feelings. Glad you posted!

Or Hunter, she is a tall ciswoman and would like to meet other tall ciswomen.

Having just gotten around to reading LW3, I'm wondering if that's how men sometimes feel re some women not having an orgasm during each sexual encounter. She really doesn't love me.
Sounds a bit of a burden LW. Not sure if it's dumping material. You could just ignore him, and proceed with your sexual wishes as you want to. He may just get tired of his broken record himself.
Or just assert yourself clearly and tell him it is no longer a topic of discussion. He then has to find a way to deal with it, internally.

Eyes closed, thank you very much. And a lot of inward-focused concentration for many minutes before and after climax. I'm happy to report that no one has ever been bothered by my orgasmic "style" lol.

@170, but I thought *I* was inverseVenomlash.

I am a trans woman (decades post-transition and married) and I find Dan's response to CIS to be incredibly patronizing. I wonder if he wrote that with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek. Yes, dating sucks when you are trans. I personally found little joy in it and hated especially the inevitable disclosure part. Yes, constant rejection sucks. But people are entitled to their preferences. If transphobes were so courteous as to state in their profiles that they don't want to date transgender women (and by transphobes I mean men who would act violently to me once I disclose), I would be most grateful to know to avoid those people and not find myself disclosing to one. And if a person (and by person I mean a normal, respectful non-violent human being) is certain that they would never want to date someone like me, I would also appreciate knowing that to reduce the number of times I would need to disclose, thereby conserving not only time but emotional energy. Hopefully, fingers tied, I won't have to find myself in a dating situation again. :)

CIS's letter is interesting because it's a subcategory of the evergreen "when to disclose" discussion. I think a lot of the heat is generated because private behavior (sexual preferences) are being disclosed in a public forum (the dating site).

Peoples' public and private behavior should not be held to the same standards. You are not an asshole because you have private preferences. EVERYBODY has private preferences. Therefore everybody is an asshole? Makes no sense.

This is where Dan made his mistake. If you're with NoCute and behave as an ally in public, but wouldn't date a trans-person in private, that doesn't make you an asshole. At worst, it makes you a friendly neutral. It doesn't really matter if there are transmen out there who reeeeally, reeeally want to have sex with NoCute, and hate her for not putting out. It's her private decision.

That being said, a dating site is a public forum, and certain standards of politeness should prevail. We try not to hurt anyone's feelings. As 307 says, it's a risk for a trans-person to disclose, and most people here would agree that it's an ethical mistake not to disclose before the pants come off. I like Helenka's (300) approach. The LW should ask herself why she doesn't like transwomen and just list those qualities. It's not lying and might weed out some unsuitable CIS women.

Thank you AxisofEagle, for posting.

Forgive me if I'm not very coherent today; I made the mistake of watching the season finale of Call the Midwife.

There was potential interest in the third letter along the lines of how best to deal with conflicting POAs; does the more reasonable one get a cookie? or questions along that line. I suspect there was little comment not so much just because it was an SS couple but because there's so much more potential zing on this issue with OS couples due to all the gender cards there are to be played. There may be mild interest in something I've noticed lately, that, if I can frame certain troubles as a big bad wolf blowing down a straw house, all the couples Mr Savage tries to relocate to a brick house (so to frame one or two of his elaborate edifices) seem to be OS. Not that the stick house isn't the right answer for this couple; it's just that this letter accidentally put me in mind of the framework I've been wanting for some time. Perhaps it's just that hardly any SS couples can yet logistically meet the requirements for the brick house.

I thank Ms Helenka for veering the second letter back towards the question of Ally status. The operative question could well be: How comfortable should it be to be an Ally? Mr Savage appears to think that a Trans Ally should be willing to put up with the discomfort of making the Cis Sex Partners Only disclosure in a personal context rather than a public one. I do think it makes sense that an Ally needs to undergo some discomfort, though whether that's just for the acquisition of Ally status or there's some ongoing necessity is open to interpretation. Without it, there's always the risk of a potential Ally turning out to be like the Prince of Arragon rejecting the lead casket: "You shall look fairer ere I give or hazard." (As I also hold that a True Ally must genuinely Get It, I rule out a lot of people others would call Allies, but that's another matter.)

I could go on, but I'm too overpowered; sorry.

You have a suggestion for LW3, Venn?
How would you have handled this situation?

I also framed ORGASM's problem as conflicting poa's, or conflicting needs, it's how I routinely interpret letters. I thought Dan could have been more sympathetic to the BF's need for his partner to orgasm often during sex. It makes me insecure when my partner doesn't come. I can rationalize it and behave myself, but it's a strong visceral feeling. Maybe just more sympathy, or perhaps having less sex that more consistently involves mutual orgasms. If ORGASM only wants to come every few days, they could consider saving sex for those times.

And looks like I'm another weirdo. Package matters to me in several ways, most of which involve the measurements of my body; a girth range and a length limit. I also like foreskin although it doesn't affect the sensation and is not a hard line at all, I just like it. My acceptable range of penis shape is pretty broad, but there are dicks that are very difficult to have sex with. I either exchange crotch shots before meeting, or grope on the first date, depending on the dynamic. If junk shots don't involve a face I don't see a problem with it, although I'd never send an identifiable nude, it would find it's way to a revenge porn site someday, somehow.

After a few days of being bothered by the 2nd letter, from CIS, I came to the comments to see what was being said. For starters, in 16 years of reading Savage's column this was the first time I got the feeling the letter was fake. It's so peculiar and careful. And then there's both the letter writer and Savage's use of "ally"--a term very obviously loaded and important to people. Lots of comments tapped into the very real situation of "being attracted to whom you are attracted to is just what it is" which I think is important to stress. What was upsetting me, in part, was the same stuff being written about by Eudemonic, someone who I have never had occasion to read before, someone I figured might be female and likely lesbian, definitely feminist, because "Eud" was the only person taking this to the right place. And to watch the suggestion of such a thing be shifted, post-by-post, into the very thing Eudemonic was saying was kind of hilarious. This is just an outsider's perspective--many of you clearly know each other.

Funny thing, too, is that very few cislesbians seem to share their feelings on this. Because many of them are afraid to do so. Maybe a few of you well-meaning allies should ask some of your cislesbian friends what has been going on with translesbians and cislesbians lately, with this sudden proliferation of lesbian transwomen, there has been a lot of talk of online harassment, coercive behavior, and outright homophobia by transwomen. Alas, we just have the endless parade of articles discussing the evils of TERFs (whom many of us had to google to even read anything by one), the constant touting of misleading statistics, and now Dan Savage telling cislesbians they should be open to transwomen...because, you know, everyone just seems to think it's okay to tell the ciswomen what to do. In the last month Bruce Jenner had a 2-hour TV interview (in which s/he describes having "a female brain"), the infamous Michfest announced it will close on its 40th anniversary, AND Smith college announced a trans-inclusive policy. What shows up right after? Dan Savage reaching millions with this calculated, somewhat "tsk tsk"-y, hypocritical, and logically flawed request that to remain an alley cislesbians should date transwomen. MAYBE SOME OF YOU HAVEN'T FIGURED THIS OUT YET, but this is about sexual partners, this is about transwomen expressing indignant entitlement at not being wanted by their chosen group of sexual partners (I understand "chosen" isn't the best word) and it's not at all irrational to view the "logic" being expressed, by Savage and by a lot of transactivists and "allies" alike, as ending in rape.

That's what a lack of consent is and telling someone they should "do something anyway" is just a few steps away from straight up rape. In the sisterhood, when a ciswoman expresses discomfort around a penis, even if said penis is attached to a woman, you RESPECT HER. YOU LISTEN AND BELIEVE, as everyone likes to say. Not doing so can be conceived of as a sex crime. If your worldview can't conceive of this that is not Eudemonic's fault; it's yours for not understanding a crucial aspect of what's going on here. Perhaps some of you would benefit from talking to cislesbians, from reading the stories of people who survived forced encounters with their translesbian partners, those who've lived with and survived another's autogynephilia, or maybe just take a half hour and look on OKCupid to see the astounding amount of translesbians who are ASTONISHINGLY similar. One after another of STEM/sci-fi/geek/sex-witch translesbians. It's actually kind of amazing and lends creedence to the transphobic TERFs who call them the "transcult"...

I'm thrilled to read intelligent comments by people who actually "put their money where their mouths are" and support equality across the board and can and will do so with votes and contributions. That across-the-board includes listening to ciswomen, especially cislesbians, who are already incredibly disempowered in this culture. Ask yourselves why is the category of woman the one asked to do most of the work and go unheard? I am not saying that transwomen are not women, of course they are women, but so are other women and they have other experiences and reservations to express. If you're not yet convinced, look into the ways that trans-inclusive language operates around abortion access. See the short path to further limiting of access. And then ask yourselves what direction this fight should be going in and whether YOU want some of these transactivists as YOUR allies...I stand with all my sisters ("not just my cis-ters") and that includes the few dykes who don't wanna deal with transwomen.

Dan is responding to having been the target of some trans activists' wrath, and he has responded by kowtowing to a doctrinaire politic by throwing lesbians under the bus. Using his logic, gay men should be willing to date women if they are to be nonsexist allies and straight people need to date gays and lesbians in order to be non-homophobic allies.

I'm all about being a good ally- but there is a big difference between being an ally and a sex partner/lover/partner. The job of an ally is to 1) listen deeply, 2) offer resources if you have more of them and they are needed, and 3) amplify the oppressed group's message. It is NOT to date them, have sex with them or make sure you don't hurt their feelings around your desire to have sex with them.

Any oppressed groups (which includes BOTH trans women and biological females, by the way- because misogyny is still alive and active) have the right to challenge people about being allies- they do NOT have the right to insist upon dating and sex on demand. No, that indicate one is a predator, and those are people whom we shouldn't be allies to.

Dan- you really blew this one. Check your politics around being an ally, because you handed in your "I am an ally to lesbians" card with that ill-fitting advice. It's clear you don't have an understanding how women are oppressed by being taught that anyone can have access to us, how we are never to hurt anyone's feelings, and finally, how we are to have sex when asked to. You just reinforced that. You can't make the world a better place for trans women by reinforcing sexism for biological females.

I am so thoroughly not okay with LW1 and Dan's response to him. I am a mid 30s woman who has NEVER. EVER.ONCE been able to come without squeezing my eyes shut, clenching every muscle in my body, and willing it with all my might to happen. Even with a 100% loving, supportive and sex-positive partner. He just grins, hands me my huge vibrator and accepts that I will never look lovingly into his eyes while gently murmuring ohhhh, I'm comingggg…. Oh, and I don't have fantasies either. He loves me anyway.

Come on Dan. I JUST a few years ago learned to tell myself there is nothing wrong with me, and this is the way I am. Are you going to make me undo all this??

Transwomen are male. That's why actual lesbians are not attracted to them. Men who want to live full-time in drag and call themselves "lesbians" should seek out bisexual women and other transwomen for dating, not female lesbians. Because they're not lesbians. They're male. Sheesh. When did people lose all common-sense understanding of human sexuality? Oh, and how many transmen has Dan dated? Exactly.

"Because that implies that someone without the genitals of a genetic female can't really be a woman." They're not women. They're transwomen. Not the same thing.

I couldn't agree with Orgasms Reliably Great Although Sometimes Missed more. my husband is totally focused on me getting off. I know he is a real giver in bed and that's great, but he takes it so hard when I don't come... what's sad is that he's really great in bed, I just don't always feel like an orgasm. I'll have to try you answer and see if it works. I'm thinking no way in hell, but maybe.

I wish I'd seen this when it first came out. I'm an occasional but thorough reader.