GETOUT, your GF is an abusive POS. Get the fuck away from her as quickly as possible. If you're truly worried about her doing something self-destructive, inform her friends and/or family, but then step back and let them deal with it. You are under no obligations to her whatsoever.

Mr. Savage, you once again live up to your name in your reply to PPPH. In the best way possible. Those people aren't her family. A week is plenty of time to grieve when you flush the toilet. And putting a big ol' spotlight on the love of her life deprives the noxious weeds of sun. Nicely done, Mr. Savage. Nicely done.

Wait, I thought the three-month anniversary (mensaversary?) gift was dinner at your local Applebee's/Ruby Tuesday's/Bennigan's/TGIFriday's/Chain Restaurant of Your Choice. When did it downgrade to a friggin' bag of Doritos?

Geez GETOUT, do you really love this person or do you feel sorry for her? The non-sex interactions sound like hell. She can't be a fun, safe person. Maybe you're reading a personality into her that doesn't exist.

Letter 1: RUUNNN! Run Away! Run fast. Run far. Keep running. Get as far away from her as possible physically, emotionally, whatever. Get the hell out. Do whatever it takes. Look up synonyms for "run", copy them over into this comment box, and do them too. Check this space later in the week for information in the actual healthy relationship department, but in the mean time, what you have with her isn't it.

Letter 2: Run! Not as fast and as furiously as LW1, but distance yourself from your family. Except in your case, leave the door open for future communication, just not on your wedding day.

Letter 3: Walk. Walk away quietly and with dignity. Be unavailable to that guy you were dating for a while (but who is not your boyfriend). If he should contact you (though it sounds like he won't), be aloof along the lines "so, how are you, I wondered what had happened to you." Then listen with half interest before getting distracted by that life you've got going elsewhere and without him.

My two cents on letter 1: that level of fear, disgust, and social dysfunction around sex almost always has a cause. Not always abuse, but possibly some sort of unhealthy family dynamic or other experience. I'm really surprised that Dan would take her behavior and say "well, this is just how she is as a person, sexually". Even if a breakup is the best option, which might be true, the letter writer should *also* ask her to try to get to the root of her problem, if he cares about her. Probably with a good sex therapist. Not to preserve the relationship, but for her well-being. Sure, we're only responsible for ourselves in the end, but that small amount of kindness seems appropriate here.

Okay, service announcement to anyone whose significant other makes suicidal gestures or threatens to kill themselves when you try to end the relationship. CALL 911. It is NOT your responsibility to do anything at that point except ensure their safety, which you will do by ensuring someone who is trained to know what's what visits them and assesses the severity of their plan along with access to weapons. If it's a manipulative person, they'll probably learn good and damned quick that threatening suicide is NOT going to get them what they want, and they'll hopefully remember that in their next relationship. If you happen to be with someone who really will think about killing themselves or will try and kill themselves, they need help, and even if you're a mental health professional, they need an objective person to figure that shit out with them.

GETOUT needs to read up on emotional blackmail - threatening suicide is a classic move for those sorts of people. The key phrase to understand them is "It's all your fault!", and it will escalate however much it needs to in order to get what they want.

"I burnt the potatoes, and it's all your fault because you distracted me with text messages!"
"I lost my job when I flipped off my boss, and it's all your fault because you kept me up late last night!"
"I'm going to jump off a bridge, and it's all your fault because you refused to marry me!"
And so on.

The only solution is to leave. If you're nervous about what she'll do, call up her family or trusted friends and make a plan with them to prevent her from doing something stupid.

I write from experience.

Holy FUCK! LW1, Dan, & everyone please forgive for stopping my reading after only the first two sentences of GETOUT's letter, but......GETOUT----if you honestly proposed marriage to this girlfriend of yours---did she have a loaded gun held closely to your head?
If your letter to Dan is indeed, fake, shame on me. If this is on the level, RUN LIKE HELL!

Jesus the things people will put up with in the blink of an eye we all have on this planet...

GETOUT - You are correct, it is entirely possible that your girlfriend's religious beliefs are responsible for her inability to be intimate with you. That's not the only possible explanation, of course, but it is absolutely one of the possible explanations.

Here's an article that discussed unconsummated marriages:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/26161185/ns/he…

Whatever the cause, though, she is not in good working order and you cannot fix her. She needs a therapist, not a husband.

@6: "Even if a breakup is the best option, which might be true, the letter writer should *also* ask her to try to get to the root of her problem"

Someone who threatens suicide for control should be left well alone.

GETOUT that you choose the acronym GETOUT tells you all you need to know. This woman is abusive and she will do her best to erode all the good, non-sexual aspects of your life, trying to make as miserable as she it. Sacrificing yourself to her will not 'save' her. She needs help but she's not gonna get as long as your there willing to clean up her messes.

If she threatens suicide, and yes that's abuse, give her the number to a suicide hotline, call 911, and the cut her out of your life.

DTMFA, DTFMA, DTFMA!

Get o

@6 Therapy will only work if the person is willing. If they're just going through the motions to preserve a relationship no real good or change will come.

He can't save her, he can throw her a life preserver, he can point out a boat, but in the she's the one that has to do the swimming. Drowning WITH her helps no one.

GETOUT: (1) You didn't cause or contribute to your girlfriend's sexual aversion. You are not obligated to stay with her for one more minute. (2) What option do you have besides cheating? DTMFA. (3) Her sexual aversion *could* dissipate, if she is willing to put in the work via counseling to solve her issues for her own as well as her partners' sakes; why would she do this when she's manipulated a chump into marrying her without sex? (4) This isn't asexuality; asexuality is simply not being interested in sex. This is a raft of deep-seated issues and excuses. If she doesn't (try to) work through them, she should look exclusively for asexual partners, of which you are not one. Your tagline says it all: GETOUT!

BAWLING: News flash: He isn't your boyfriend. He dumped you, but wasn't considerate enough to inform you of this. Take LW1's advice and GETOUT!

GETOUT's girlfriend "holds strong religious convictions" but "denies that this contributes to the situation." Wow. This level of denial is amazing. She thinks sex is disgusting and she's afraid of it, but this isn't due to her religious upbringing. Riiiiiight... it must be all those other sources of sex-negative emotional brainwashing.

Am I actually the first to think that GETOUT's letter is fake? It smells like it's a swipe at grad students - albeit an effective one, judging from the similarity and sheer volume of the replies.

LW1: it's hard to believe you are a reader of SL, AND tolerating this bazaar situation.
How can anybody be disgusted with sex? Is she also disgusted with all that blood she sheds each month?
Her trying to control you thru threats of harming herself, along with her disgust points to her being in a questionable mental state. Has she family? Perhaps you need to contact them and outline her threats.. Drop her at their house if you need to or they come and get her. And tell her clearly it's over. She needs help. And leave her alone..

Fake or not, one particular detail jumped out of GETOUT's letter: ".. despite her use of oral contraceptives, she fears pregnancy."

Given that she is a virgin, who is engaged to be married, who is repulsed by (terrified of ?) sex. This can only leave that she is on the pill to regulate/calm her menstrual cycle - so this means that a doctor is prescribing these therapeutically. It is conceivable that there is something going on as a result of this or that this is a symptom of something more organically complex.

What ever the case, GETOUT needs to talk to her family and tell them about the suicide threats and then break-up with her, as shitty as that makes him feel or as shitty as her family thinks that is. She needs professional help, be that mental health or medical, or both.

BAWLING: It is a classic case of "He's just not that into you". Move on and find someone who is at least grown up enough to be honest with you.

People are perhaps being just a little harsh about GETOUT's girlfriend (isn't anyone else considering that her problems may arise from sexual trauma in her past?). However, even if it weren't for the sex issue, their beliefs on everything are clearly just too different, and this screams "marriage made in hell". GETOUT: you clearly don't envisage yourself being happy with this woman; do you really think that in the long term, she will be happy either, with a boyfriend / husband who is essentially being held hostage? Don't be cruel to her, but don't be guilted into staying and ruining your life (and, probably, hers). Perhaps a letter, explaining (politely) the reasons you know it can't work out (she needs to be with someone who shares her beliefs - the Bible tells Christians not to be "unequally yoked" with an unbeliever - you need to be with someone who supports you doing what's necessary for your mental health, etc). And reiterate that perhaps seeing a therapist is something she should consider (especially if there is a history of childhood sexual abuse or similar). Maybe you can arrange for family or friends to be with her while she gets over the initial shock (and if she's threatening suicide, perhaps you should think carefully about whether you need to talk to her family about that - you don't need to go into the details of your relationship). It won't be easy. But believe me, once you're legally and financially shackled to her, it won't be any easier. Make the break while you're young; I really can't see you regretting it.

PPPH- When you bury deep under the shitty family and homophobia in your letter, there's a Miss Manners type answer lying there. It goes like this. Guests are expected to rsvp to invitations because it's polite. Those inviting guests like rsvps so they can tell the caterers how much food to prepare (and other considerations as to space and entertainment). Hosts pay for no-shows. There's nothing in the etiquette books that says that hosts are expected to call or otherwise hunt down non-rsvping guests to force an answer out of them. In fact, if you hear nothing from guests, you may assume they're not coming. This means that you're really off the hook about calling to beg people to come to your wedding or to listen to them individually tell you why they're not coming (and why you're a bad person blah and shouldn't be doing this blah). The etiquette nugget here is what to do if someone who hasn't rsvped does show up. Assuming they're not violent and that you'd have been delighted to see them if they'd only sent back the card, the answer is to find a chair and make do with whatever food you have. Treat this as any straight couple would whose guests haven't rsvped. Easier that way.

A woman is willing to engage in cunnilingus and wants nothing to do with a man sexually. Lesbian, possibly?

@19: "How can anybody be disgusted with sex? Is she also disgusted with all that blood she sheds each month?"

Probably. Loads of us who LOVE sex are disgusted with all that blood we shed each month. (Thank heavens for birth control pills which stop your periods! Life changer!)

@23: "A woman is willing to engage in cunnilingus and wants nothing to do with a man sexually. Lesbian, possibly?"

Doubt it. She regretted the cunnilingus, and only let him do it because she was afraid he would leave. GETOUT's letter states "any form of sexual affection prompted panic attacks and psychological distress". A lesbian would have enjoyed the cunnilingus and fantasised it was a woman doing it, surely?

BAWLING, you're not in a relationship. You're into a guy who gave you some time and attention and has now wandered off, as is his right. It would be nice if he was clear with you that he's not interested in pursuing anything, but he has given you plenty of clues so that you can draw that conclusion. I know that's painful, but the quicker you accept it, learn from it, and move on, the better.

GETOUT, you need to run. Run like the wind. Run like a pack of killer clowns is three feet behind you. If your story is legit, this woman has no business getting married, and you need to figure out why you would 'technically' be engaged to her at all.

@21 "People are perhaps being just a little harsh about GETOUT's girlfriend (isn't anyone else considering that her problems may arise from sexual trauma in her past?)."

She may well have sexual trauma in her past, and that may explain some of her sexual aversion, but it doesn't explain this: Why does she want a husband so badly that she's threatening to kill herself if she doesn't get one?

24-BiDan-- Good point. And you make me realize that I've let my emotions and first reactions run away with me in my previous posts. I'm going to start again with this revision of GETOUT's letter.

I've become fond of a woman with many positive qualities, but she's also deeply troubled. She's repulsed by sex, has panic attacks when even thinking about sex, is manipulative, has at times been suicidal, refuses psychological counseling. I don't know why she's the way she is, but I guess at possibilities including early ongoing sexual abuse, traumatic sexual abuse like rape, religion-- which is a form of abuse, asexuality, or nothing environmental, just plain mental illness that shows up in her attitudes towards sex. Obviously I need to break off our relationship, but I feel invested enough in her to want to do it in as kind and responsible a manner as possible. I'd like to look back on this part of my life and remember that I wasn't mean. How do I do it?

Answer: You make a clean break. First do some homework and find out about counseling opportunities and medical support for this obviously troubled and ill woman. Go to her and tell her that you don't have the professional expertise to help her but that you've made some calls and found the professionals that do. Give her the phone numbers. Use the words "breaking up with you". Tell her that you won't be taking calls from her or contacting her in the future but that you will remember her fondly. Let her know that you don't hate her and that your break up is motivated out of deep concern for her. Then, after you've left the room where she probably will be crying, keep your word and don't look back. If she makes a suicide threat, credible or not, call 9-1-1 and tell them honestly what she's said. Let them decide what to do. If she bothers you with texts, emails, and phone calls, don't answer. If you feel yourself breaking and like you absolutely must say something, let it be with the ad nauseum repetition of "I can't help you. Call this emergency counseling service."

@3: Wait, I thought the three-month anniversary (mensaversary?) gift was dinner at your local Applebee's/Ruby Tuesday's/Bennigan's/TGIFriday's/Chain Restaurant of Your Choice. When did it downgrade to a friggin' bag of Doritos?

No that's the four-month anniversary.

Seconding #7:

Okay, service announcement to anyone whose significant other makes suicidal gestures or threatens to kill themselves when you try to end the relationship. CALL 911. It is NOT your responsibility to do anything at that point except ensure their safety, which you will do by ensuring someone who is trained to know what's what visits them and assesses the severity of their plan along with access to weapons. If it's a manipulative person, they'll probably learn good and damned quick that threatening suicide is NOT going to get them what they want, and they'll hopefully remember that in their next relationship.

M? Corn - [Even if a breakup is the best option, which might be true, the letter writer should *also* ask her to try to get to the root of her problem, if he cares about her.]

While I agree with the sentiment that being sufficiently attached to someone to contemplate marriage makes it (should there be no issue of personal safety involved) more seemly to try to get that person much-needed help rather than to run away screaming (and silently/vindictively hoping that person's life never improves), I have to ask how the flip anyone could say breaking up's being the best option might be true. Thinking that breaking up doesn't quite meet the standard of being beyond reasonable doubt would seem to be the baseline of maximum leniency towards Fiancee here unless one thinks a considerable portion of the letter is outright false.

This week's theme: questions to which the answers are painfully obvious to all but the writers themselves.

One could guess that "technically" engaged is LW's way of conveying that he wants and intends to end the engagement but is letting the official status continue for the present, but I do wonder whether there's anything more that's out of the norm about it. Depending on possible editing of the letter, perhaps Mr Savage should be dinged for presuming that LW proposed, LW should be docked for actually having proposed, or both.

Proposing to someone who is clearly two or three planets away from being in satisfactory working order = NOT a good idea.

Those of us with the SS privilege of freedom from gender norms perhaps ought to give our OS fellow humans the benefit of the doubt about falling into that trap hole, especially if we are among that number among us who consider it part of our duty in marrying to improve marriage for everybody (I do not count myself in that faction; I think it highly likely to happen and that such an outcome would be a plus, but don't think we owe it to anybody).

I think for the moment I shall content myself with hoping that "technically" engaged also means that LW did not buy her a ring of any description - even one that only cost a "mere" thousand dollars.

BAWLING-- Dan's answer is spot on for how to proceed with this relationship. I'm going to go out on a limb and offer advice on how to proceed with the next one and the one after that. I'm going to be so far reaching as to offer advice on romantic relationships, sexual relationships, friend relationships, professional relationships, and pretty much every relationship out there. Someone is going to point out an exception somewhere, but I think this pretty much covers it for everything, straight, gay, the way you treat him, and what you look for in the way he treats you.

Take turns.

You ask him out to do something fun. Now you wait for his turn to ask you out to do something fun. He buys you a nice gift. Now you wait for the appropriate occasion and buy him a nice gift. You text him. Wait for him to text you back before texting again. He initiates a fantastic sexual experience. You initiate one.

There might be a time when you go so far as 2 initiations before getting one in return, maybe even 3, but that's about it.

Here's the shocker: This taking turns thing lasts for the duration of the relationship. People who have been together for 3 or 30 years instead of 3 months? They still need give and take. The "turns" won't be for exactly the same thing. They may have it worked out that one initiates sex while the other initiates dinner and movie dates, but they do initiate and reciprocate in turn.

Keep in mind the turn taking thing for the next relationship. Since you're upset enough now to describe yourself as bawling (and I get it-- rejection hurts), don't fall into the trap of thinking that a guy who asks you out and texts and has sex with you and asks to have sex with you again and sees you all the time and does all this while you hang back and never get in touch with him somehow loves you better or is a better boyfriend. Not waiting for you to take your turn is actually a red flag that something's the matter.

GETOUT--I know this sounds heartless, but if someone is threatening to kill themself "because of" something you did: Call their fucking bluff and cut off contact ASAP. Fuck them and their emotional blackmail and abuse. If they actually make good on their threat, that shit's on them, forever.

Crinoline, you're knocking it out of the park today. I wish I'd read this thread when I was 15.

Or, really, that everyone read this when they were 15. Life has a reading list, though it's probably impractically long.

LW1:
"She also disapproves of my family and friends, my interest in science, my distrust of religion, and my use of antidepressants." ... and no sex.
This is not, and will not become, a healthy relationship for you or her. It may be hard, but for your own mental and physical health, you can do much better.

Barring cheating, the impetus for her decision to break up with a previous boyfriend, what other options do I have?

Seriously? Obvious troll is obvious. "She has many positive qualities - for instance, she hates everything about me." Funny, but not very convincing. Try to be a little more clever next time.

@BAWLING: Maybe he would be willing to try couples counseling? I mean, you don't want to just throw away an investment of 7 weeks like it was a passing fling.

@37: It's good advice. It shouldn't get bogged down in scorekeeping, but any relationship (not necessarily just romantic or even personal relationships) should be reciprocal. Taking turns is a good way to keep things relatively balanced. If it's always the same pursuer and pursued, it's not a healthy relationship.

@37: "You give me things, and I accept them, that's how our relationship works" isn't an indicator that the relationship's going to work out.

@LW1: I was involved in a somewhat similar situation: very conservative/religious girl, very averse to intimacy, almost repulsed by sexuality. Things ended, supposedly due to religious differences, buuuuut get this: a year or two later she came out of the closet! Yup, she was self-repressed gay all along. I wonder if that's a possibility in your situation as well.

Fan @24. Never a bed of roses the monthly bleed, I never felt disgusted by it however. A contraceptive pill where your periods actually stop? What does this do to your body, are there side/ long term
effects?

I was in a relationship similar to LW#1's with the exception of the sex part. It was just the opposite, great, amazing sex. Blow Job everyday kind of sex. The kind of sex that it takes a long time to realize is actually another tactic of manipulation. Every other thing he describes applied, I too even got engaged because I had to keep one upping the commitment to prove myself. It took a rude awakening to see what was happening, and yes my leaving prompted a suicide threat, to which I called 911 and her parents. She was pretty pissed that I did that, but in the fullness of time has realized it was the right thing for me to do. She still has issues, but is getting help. I still have a hard time, but am currently successful in resisting her manipulations. I care about her but I also see that she does nothing positive for me and has much damage. The best way to help is to avoid contact. The last time I allowed contact she expressed that she still though we were "destined" and that she was getting help and counseling in the hopes we will be together again someday. Any time I show any concern or caring she takes it as hope and when I deny that she immediately tries to manipulate me via guilt again. Leave, refer help to her and then cut all contact. As hard as that can be to do, it is truly the most loving thing you can do. You can't help her yourself, and further contact prolongs her pain through false hope. Her problems are not your responsibility, but you can help both of you this way.

Crin; I sort of agree with you re taking turns. Surely at beginnings of romantic relationships, that is a key. For friendships, there can be lots of times one needs a friend and one just goes to them. Grief, physical or emotional crisis-
Then, taking turns would get in the way of looking after each other.
LTRs, yes.. One needs to initiate and respond, most of the time.

@maxine34: isn't anyone else considering that her problems may arise from sexual trauma in her past?

Probably half the women I've dated have experienced some sort of sexual abuse or trauma, and while in some cases it imposed certain constraints on our sexual repertoire, it didn't turn any of these women into cold, manipulative, emotionally abusive, asexual succubi who refused to discuss their issues. Those qualities seem to be a function of the fiance's unique and horrible personality.

If the fiance isn't asexual, my money says she's in the closet, although I suspect she'd be only slightly less crazy in a lesbian relationship.

@45: Anecdotal evidence from some straight male and bi and lesbian acquaintances about the same people is that coming out of the closet rarely solves the problem of being a crazy-abusive asshole... but that it does happen. Sometimes.

Eud- 34-- I admire you for needing this advice at 15. I was so awkward and mixed up and a late bloomer that my advice is the advice I wish I'd had when I was 19 and straight through to my late 20s. I thought I was being so hip and feminist by taking the lead and asking him out. It was years later I realized that when a man woos as ardently as I was wooing it's seen as closer to scary stalking. I wish I'd realized that the sort of shit I was putting up with from another woman in a straight platonic friendship would have been interpreted as sticking around for a cycle of abuse and apology from a wife beater if she'd been male. The point being that it's easy to make fun of BAWLING for being so invested in a relationship of only 3 months except that I've been there (or somewhere like it).

37-Hunter-- See? I just KNEW someone was going to think of an exception.

44-Lava-- I see your point but actually disagree. If X is constantly going to Y for help, and Y never asks for anything from X, I predict some sort of blow up or bad feeling down the line. Granted it doesn't have to be an absolute tit for tat. Maybe Y isn't experiencing any crises, but X should wait for Y to initiate something even if it's just a quiet evening of watching t.v. and NOT listening to X's troubles. Otherwise Y is within his/her rights to suggest professional counseling if for no better reason than to preserve the friendship.

As one more person who has been stuck in a relationship with a similarly..unstable...person, I want to add to the hallelujah chorus telling GETOUT to GET OUT. Run, run fast. I wound up running - quite literally - a couple of miles through a pouring rainstorm myself when I finally made my break...don't let it get that far.

For those counseling a gentler approach: you're nuts. Undoubtedly there is some kind of trauma behind these issues, and the fear of sex is probably only a symptom. Certainly counseling is in order. He's already tried to suggest counseling for the two of them, to no avail. She's not going to get anything out of it until she herself decides she wants to go and work it. BTDT too. Perhaps his flight will be the thing that prompts her to seriously consider it.

All I'd add is that GETOUT might consider getting some counseling on his own after he flees, before he gets into the next relationship, to see if perhaps there's something about him that drew him to such a person or made it possible to not be repelled...generally these people's personality quirks leak out pretty early on. BTDT too, and I highly recommend it.

Oh, and on the religion thing: religion - particularly dogmatic and orthodoxy religion - is a very structured and ordered thing. It's very attractive to people like this because they're struggling with a lot of internal chaos and conflict. A highly rigid world view helps provide via an external locus of control which substitutes for their own internal control. So, I'd say religiosity is a symptom as much as the issues about sex.

@45 - my WAG is an attachment disorder more than sexual trauma gives rise to this kind of abusive behavior. Some of the abuse may have been sexual in nature, but it has more to do with never learning secure attachment. Most of the abusive behavior is really just a maladaptive coping mechanism rather than malicious intent. But I'm not a shrink.

How's the baby going Finch? Hope you all going well.

@51 - better than I expected! He's gaining weight nicely and sleeping really well at night. Down to one feeding/night. So we're kind of getting some sleep. Fingers crossed it keeps on this way.

I like Crinoline's turn-taking advice. I think it promotes balance in a relationship, and my best relationships have involved not score-keeping or tit-for-tat, but genuine turn-taking. One of the many advantages is that if/when the relationship ends, you don't feel unduly taken advantage of, or guilty.

Finch's attachment comment also resonates - as I'm raising an attachment-challenged former foster kid, I'm dealing with more than the typical amount of manipulation and "it's all your fault."

Mr Finch - Of course. If LW1 really made a formal proposal, he needs more help than she does, though she needs help more either way.

@AFinch: Now that you mention it, I did have one insecurely attached girlfriend who handled separation especially poorly, but she'd been abandoned by her father as a child, and then by her mother when she was 16. No sexual trauma to speak of.

If you ask me, there's only one good reason to put up with the crazy, and that's especially hot sex. Take that away, and I don't see the point.

I have to give credit to crazy women, though, many of the them deliver the heat. I'll go bigger than that and say that the best sex there is to be had among human beings - that includes homo, hetero, and everything in between - is sex with a certain type of crazy woman. If sex were drugs, that right there would be heroin.

I've heard the crazy=hot sex theory before. The male version seems to be the better the sex the more likely it is that you're not the only one he's sleeping with. Sexual abuse often leads to promiscuity, sex is devalued at an early age as something to be bartered for things you want, ie: the abuser tries to buy the victim's silence.

@55: "If you ask me, there's only one good reason to put up with the crazy, and that's especially hot sex."

That's sad codependency and not at all a healthy sex life.

@56: Mostly used by people trying to smokescreen bad decisions. I've dated people off their rocker and had great sex, but my life was a shambles and I was miserable. I clung to that to justify, but in retrospect, the sex is never hot enough.

I'm on the fence about the advice to GETOUT. The best thing for him is to beat feet. But somebody is going to have to marry this person. And if not him, then what poor sucker will get the job?

The best outcome for all is if she gives up on men and gets cats. Except for the cats, of course. But then cats are expendable.

Jesus, GETOUT, how big a font do we need to put DTMFA in?

BTW@The Zoo: Nice avatar.

@56: "the better the sex the more likely it is that you're not the only one he's sleeping with."

Perhaps. But that's the way our species is designed. Look up "Coolidge effect". And read "Sex at Dawn" by Ryan and Jethá.

I guffawed at the doritos line. For the first guy, beyond all the other problems with this basket case what sort of person goes to grad school who is distrustful of science? It this the anti-vaxx university of crystal chakra healing? Bob Jones U?

I think we should expand on what John Waters said about not fucking people who don't own books. If you are at least a moderately smart person and your prospective mate is some kinda science denying ideolog on the right or the left, don't fuck them. They don't deserve the sexual pleasure, and you don't want to mix up your DNA with that.

No judgement in either case, after all, practice makes perfect, and only you can judge the level of crazy you're willing to put up with for great sex

@GETOUT, you seem like you want out (as you should) but feel guilty about it, and you are looking for permission to end it. I believe you get to keep your nice guy card even ending this relationship, because she's unwilling to make a bit of effort toward meeting your needs. That she would expect you to live a celibate life and die a virgin to accommodate her mostly irrational feelings is a testament to her selfishness and a preview of your miserable coupled life together. You already know... the answer is to GET OUT.

@Dan:
#2: Way to go - more encouragement for straight men to be passive aggressive when dealing with women. They are already huge emotional babies that have major communication issues - they don't need a pass to be a douche and "let" her break up with him. Jesus.
#3: Spot on.

@55 WoofCandy
“If sex were drugs, that right there would be heroin.”

@58 unayn
“but in retrospect, the sex is never hot enough.”

So who says no such thing as sex addiction?

After the first letter read "technically engaged", I already knew he needed to leave. If you're "technically" anything in a relationship...get out NOW.

@63: "only you can judge the level of crazy you're willing to put up with for great sex"

Come the fuck on, he's a grown adult but anyone can judge self-delusion.

@65: Yeah, maybe that is a SLAA scenario, more about harm than it is pleasure.

@Robin8 #60 - thanks! I'm quite fond of that penguin.

@undead: That's sad codependency

You can be sad if you like. From my view, I simply had the experience of being nonpermanently attached to someone who's emotional range, for better and for worse, was wide, unpredictable, and intense.

and not at all a healthy sex life.

If only I could dismiss it so easily.

I'm working with a limited sample size, so I have no idea if my generalization really holds. It's just that I've seen a tendency towards enmeshment and fuzzy boundaries play out with a sexual intensity that I haven't yet managed to replicate with a nice sane lady.

Anyway, like a heroin addiction, or a shooting star, it can't last.

"She proceeded to threaten to kill herself and blame me for her aversion to sex."

I hope you had her taken in for the obligatory 72 hours of observation. At very least, you started dialing for the ambulance. Seriously. People who play that card can only mean one of two things:

a) they mean it, in which case they are in desperate and immediate need of professional intervention to prevent self-harm;

or

b) they don't mean it, in which case they desperately need to learn the consequences of fake-threatening suicide in order to win an argument, and they need to learn it hard enough that they don't dare offer up that kind of emotional abuse ever again.

But mostly "a)." When it gets down to brass tacks, you can't really tell the difference just by looking, and you would really hate to find out too late that they were an "a)" the whole time.

Wow there's so much crazy in that first letter that it's hard to pick any particular item, but I've always had an eye for oddity...why is a virgin who isn't planning to have sex taking oral contraceptives?

@70 avast
From what I've seen, and I may be wrong, it's mostly-though-not-exclusively the B option.
We often learn after the fact that while there may have been some signs we may now interpret as “intentions”, the person who committed suicide never said so explicitly.

Those who declare it loud and clear, especially when they set conditions, are accustomed to emotional blackmail and are mostly-though-not-exclusively attempt to play their cards. That said, calling an ambulance is a very good idea in this case regardless, as it may dissuade them from future statements or possible acts.

She disapproves of his "use of antidepressants"? Christ, dude...she's Scientologist. Get. Out. Now.

You can crash at Katie Holmes' place until you find a new apartment.

GETOUT (lw1) recap: fiance with many unspecified good qualities but... why should he fear thee? Let us count the ways: 1) grad students both, and virgins both, so not much life experience to compare this train wreck to; 2) repulsed by sex (or at least him); 3) claims to be broken from "forcing herself" to go further than comfortable, as a means to keep him around, or to guilt him, or both; 4) cunnilingus only, a taker only not a giver; 5) any sexual attention "provokes panic attacks and psychological distress", a not so veiled don't touch message; 6) threat to kill herself and blame him (in a note? FB post?) qualifies as giant red waving flags with bright flares attached; 7) refuses counseling to attempt to resolve or understand what's up; 8) what's holding the relationship together is his misplaced guilt for something he didn't create; 9) seems to not like anything else about him either, except that he's there, either as a life preserver or a target for psychological abuse ("also disapproves of my family and friends, my interest in science, my distrust of religion, and my use of antidepressants"); 10) the preceding describes a flavor of abuser that will only get worse the more committed you become. Plan your escape carefully, along the lines of an abused woman or going into witness protection; safe place to live that she does not know location of or have keys to; new phone #, with incoming caller ID and block, arrange to have witnesses to some of the craziness in case she decides to fabricate and file a charge of rape or other crime against you; do not be alone with her more than you must, or during or after the big talk where you recommend that you part ways and she focus on sorting through her issues with good help. Someone who would threaten suicide may consider or attempt murder-suicide. Act now, before you're deeper into the tarpit; it does not get better after the ceremony, after you move in together, after you set up a household together, if you somehow manage to have kids. Everything that she thinks is making her unhappy that she thinks of a way it could be your fault is really coming from her own internal black hole of misery. It could be genetic, hereditary, major preexisting mental illness, and no way that could be your fault. Grad school is well within the time frame of schizophrenia and other serial illnesses' onset distribution. Down this track you're on now, lies demands to stop seeing your friends, complaints and avoidance of your family, rejection of what you enjoy, physical injury to your kids, dishonesty, cheating, if you're lucky she'll eventually leave and divorce you, if you're still lucky and have quick reaction time her boyfriend the truck driver won't manage to crush you and your compact car, and the divorce will go through and you'll be free but wary several years later, after the healthier potential mates are otherwise occupied. Or you'll be dead for the insurance. Or living in hell on earth blamed for the betrayal of pregnancy of her friend after you couldn't stand another year of no sex at all.

@52 AFinch: Congratulations on your new baby, and all the best!
@60 Robin8: Congrats for whacking it out of the park again.
@68 TheZoo: I'm pretty fond of Berkeley Breathed's Opus, too.

Re: the reciprocity topic, anyone got any ideas for my particular situation? I have a boyfriend who refuses to recognize reciprocity as a necessary component of a relationship, except he calls it "trade forcing", which is a concept he says he created. In contrast with the standard understanding of relationship development as escalating self-disclosure and reciprocal investment, his model is: someone you hang out and have sex with; and when this person does something with an implicit understanding that reciprocation is appropriate, then acts surprised that the normal pattern of social relations is subverted, they are being manipulative and trying to unfairly obligate you to do something you didn't agree on beforehand, and thus you should refuse.

He has some tendencies that I would call borderline autistic, but in this case I don't think there's anything innate that prevents him from understanding the idea of reciprocity in relationships. Does anyone have any ideas on how to deal with this? Any studies, perhaps? He doesn't really recognize any evidence that isn't double blind or have sample size <50, unfortunately.

tbm42: I'm very confused what your problem is. Otherwise, I'd be more than happy to give my take.
Mind you, someone to hang out and have sex with, is my perfect idea. Maybe I'm borderline something as well.
As long as the cooking is shared, I'm good. Sorry.
Not much help, hey?

@37: “Taking turns as a serious relationship mode”… you see something wrong with that? For the life of me I can’t see how anyone could take exception to Crinoline’s description of how to have a long and mutually satisfying relationship. Even Eudaemonic sees the merit. What exactly do you find unworkable? The turn-taking is voluntary, remember; Crinoline isn’t advocating pressuring one’s partner into doing something by saying “It’s your turn,” or keeping score.

@42: I’m probably weird anyway, my periods have always been very short and light. I never got any side effects from any pill (not even larger breasts, dammit), and I haven’t noticed any from this one. I still have light bleeding once or twice a year. Usually when I’m on holiday, of course. :P

@59: “Somebody is going to have to marry this person.” How do you figure that? Marriage is not something the universe owes anybody at least one of.

@77: “anyone got any ideas for my particular situation? I have a boyfriend who refuses to recognize reciprocity as a necessary component of a relationship” -- DTMFA. Anyone who likes the person they’re in a relationship with will want to do nice things in return for someone doing nice things for them. Unless they’re a sociopath.

“his model is: someone you hang out and have sex with” – That’s a FWB, not a relationship. Tell him, "I'm looking for a relationship, not a FWB."

“He has some tendencies that I would call borderline autistic, but in this case I don't think there's anything innate that prevents him from understanding the idea of reciprocity in relationships.” – I have a partner who is completely autistic, and he easily understands the concept of “it’s my turn to take you out” / “I’ve brought you a gift because you’re always cooking dinner.” Granted, sometimes I do have to remind him, but he understands that forgetting is his issue and reciprocity is completely fair.

“He doesn't really recognize any evidence that isn't double blind or have sample size <50” – In that case his only option is “learning through experience”, as in, “if you treat your so-called boy/girlfriend like a sex jukebox, they’ll leave you.”

Good luck, and don't take autism as an excuse.

@37 - yes, relationships should involve reciprocal "taking turns", and yes, without scorekeeping and tit-for-tat. Crinoline has given an excellent example of a heathy relationship model. You shouldn't have to ask - if your partner isn't reciprocal without you asking, then you need to accept that as the answer (and DTMFA).

So, @77 - how do you handle this (beyond what you've already done, which is to talk about the issue)? Drop the rope. Stop doing for him what he's not doing for you. Like LW3, we can all be tempted, when we are into someone else, to ignore the answer they've given us in their actions, and to persist in believing (because it's what we want) that a reciprocal relationship exists. Clearly one does not. Stop the one-handed handshake. Don't do things for him with any expectations (so don't do them if you'd only do them based on the expectation of reciprocity). He will either get the wake-up call that he's being an ass by being all taker and he's going to have to learn a new social relationship model (perhaps he can revise his algorithms) or the relationship will fall apart and you will be free to find someone who is more emotionally available.

77-tbm-- Sheldon Cooper understands reciprocity so well that he takes it to funny extremes of not wanting to accept a gift because of the burden of figuring out exactly how much it's worth so he can return a gift of equal value. Not only is being on the spectrum no excuse, it's less of one. The sheer mathematical equalness of reciprocity ought to make it more appealing, not less.

Like Lava, I'm not sure what the problem is. That you can't convince him that you're right? It sounds to me like you've expressed yourself well, like he's expressed himself well, and that you don't agree. This isn't a matter of communication; it's a matter of compromise. If compromise isn't possible, then it's up to one of you to say "I've lost this one" and shut up about it. Either that or "this is a deal breaker for me" and leave the relationship. There really isn't anything else.

FWIW, I agree with you, but that's only going to make you feel better about this for a few minutes. The point is that he doesn't agree with you, and that's what matters.

Except ... unless ... there is the possibility that he has a point. I'll draw my analogy from the 1950s. A man asks a woman out and spends lavishly on her giving her an evening of dinner and dancing. She thanks him and waits. He asks her out again with a more expensive dinner and theater tickets. Etc. Finally he thinks she should reciprocate by sleeping with him, and she thinks nothing of the kind. In fact, she thinks while slapping his face and screaming that she's not that sort of girl, if she'd known that was what he was after, she'd never have accepted all those gifts. In fact, she thinks while weeping softly into her pillow, he was a manipulative asshole who should have told her the price tag so she could decide whether to accept. She thinks she should have refused on principle.

Could it be that that's what's going on here? She sleeps with him with the assumption that kindness, affection, and increasing intimacy are owed her in a spirit of reciprocity. This is so obvious to her that she doesn't realize that he doesn't see it that way. He just feels tricked. When she explains what her expectations were, he digs in his heels. No way is he going to stand for having the price tag put on afterwards. In fact, even after she's explained that she's only sleeping with him in exchange for "relationship development," he doesn't feel like giving it. Truth is, he didn't agree ahead of time and therefore should refuse.

I know this is hard, but you really should break up with him. You've been in this long enough to know that the relationship is not going where you want it to. There's an excellent chance that you'll find someone more suited to you. Go out and find him.

Even if he's right--if he does feel like price tags are being attached retroactively--it's still not a good idea to stick around. You want different things.

It seems like there's this popular misconception that someone has to be "in the wrong" in order for you to break up with them, but they don't. Wanting different things is a perfectly valid reason to break up.

That's another of those things I wish everyone knew at 15.

FWIW, I think the way the two opposite problems--lack of reciprocity vs. retroactive price tags--is fairly easily balanced. If you do a favor, purely out anticipated reciprocation, and the reciprocation doesn't happen? Stop doing that favor. You don't get to demand they do something they don't want to--humans don't work that way--but you are completely within your rights to quit trying to make a trade the other person doesn't want.

If you want to trade sex for emotional intimacy, or money, or lightbulb-changing and drain-fixing services, make that a little more explicit. I don't recommend doing that, but if you're gonna, it's best to make sure you're actually going to get what you're trying to buy. Dropping a ten on the counter and then walking away might make the dude at the sandwich counter correctly intuit what sandwich I want, and bring it to me, but it's not the most effective way for me to get my lunch.

@Crin #47: "Eud- 34-- I admire you for needing this advice at 15. I was so awkward and mixed up and a late bloomer that my advice is the advice I wish I'd had when I was 19 and straight through to my late 20s."

This might be the first time I've been admired for being a mess who understood basically nothing about the world at 15. ;)

@77: "He has some tendencies that I would call borderline autistic, but in this case I don't think there's anything innate that prevents him from understanding the idea of reciprocity in relationships. Does anyone have any ideas on how to deal with this?."

Don't get romantically involved with Objectivists?

Ive heard a lot of people espouse the Virtue of Selfishness, sharing and equality is Communism playbook but rarely are persons so directly Libertarian "I've got mine" in the context of a relationship.

I will say with sympathy that you are not going to argue him out of this ideological position.

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments, and since several people have mentioned that they were a bit confused, I'll try to be more explicit:

For the record, I don't think anything should be reciprocated out of a feeling of obligation, and for most of the beginning of our relationship I did things (gave gifts, compliments, etc) because I wanted to, without expectation of reciprocity, just the hope that eventually he would come around and see the benefit of doing this. That was two years ago, and after two years of very minimal to nonexistent reciprocity, I was getting somewhat embittered. (He actually does this to everyone, not just me - for instance, as far as I know, he's never given anyone any sort of gift.)

The issue is not that I'm trying to barter sex for emotions; as per his own words, I've got the latter, up to and including love. What he refuses to reciprocate is everything else, including self-disclosure, gifts, caretaking (ie when sick), assistance/support with academic work, etc. The real sore point right now is that I learned German from scratch and moved to Germany from the US to be near him (he lives in Denmark, and for complicated legal and financial reasons, Germany was the only nearby place I could go). After a year of studying in East Germany, I had to move back to the US a couple months ago for medical treatment, and I disliked East Germany and the program so much that I refused to go back (that and the fact that my funds were low). He hates the US and doesn't want to live there. There was a very easy solution to bring me back to Europe that would require him to move one country over, to Sweden, which I thought was reasonable, considering I moved a continent away for him just the previous year. He was opposed to this idea, because it was inconvenient for him to move, and wanted me to instead choose a solution that would require that I take on a $40,000-$60,000 debt. He thought it was unreasonable of me to bring up the fact that I moved to Germany for him, and that it seems fair for him to move to Sweden for me.

You're all right, of course, that we clearly want different things, and I should stop hoping for it to magically get better. But breaking up is hard to do...

@87 - The real sore point right now is that I learned German from scratch and moved to Germany from the US to be near him (snippage)

Oh, ouch. Please let's move on from on the spectrum and libertarianism to the "sunken cost fallacy". Yes, please, break up with him, as painful as that is, because throwing good money after bad is bad. I'm sorry, that sucks.

@87: "He hates the US and doesn't want to live there. There was a very easy solution..."

And there is another one!

Post #87 makes him sound like a total asshole, and makes you sound kind of... naive, we'll say? DTMFA. If the prospect of having That Conversation seems too daunting, it looks like your situation has a built-in escape mechanism: you're in the US, and he won't go there. You don't even need to ditch the asshole; he comes pre-ditched. Perfect. It's never going to be easier to break up with him than now.

@tbm42 It's so hard because you have invested so much. It won't get easier by investing more. There's a whole lot of fish in the sea. Just dang hard to see them when mesmerized by one in particular.

@88: I wasn't literally saying he was one but yes, ultimately of you can't compromise or find equality through give and take, cut your losses before sunk cost gets worse and more entrenched.

@87: I think the issue is that you're willing to give, but he's only willing to take. You're willing to compromise for the sake of the relationship, but he isn't. Cut your losses and find someone who is able to show you they love you, rather than just say the words. I'm sorry.

I've got the answer for GETOUT, assuming his fiancee's deeply held religious beliefs are of the conservative Christian variety. Just point out that after you're married, it will be her duty to have sex with you and bare your children - as many as she possibly can. And if she kills herself she'll go to hell. Then she will run the other way.

@93: "Just point out that after you're married, it will be her duty to have sex with you and bare your children - as many as she possibly can. And if she kills herself she'll go to hell. Then she will run the other way."

This is not at all the way a self-hating and self-destructive person would react, though. These quips will never get her to respect herself enough to seek out happiness. Misery is all she knows, all she feels she deserves. She'll "try" halfassedly and loathe the LW along with herself. Getting the fuck out and leaving her to herself is literally the only option he has.

Just to exemplify, this is exactly how Andrea Yates (and many like her) came to pass.

And the pathological religious loathing of self is symptomatic, not the cause of her illness.

@93: "Then she will run the other way."

I think it's more efficient for him to run the other way.

@91 - no, no, I entirely like and agree with your observation|insight that libertarianism and autism share a kind of naive literalism and empathic disability, but one group does have a legit excuse and the other does not. I had completely forgotten about Andrea Yates, but you are quite correct in that example.

@94-@97: I'm generally pretty tone deaf when it comes to the internet, but I really think @93 was a joke?

@99: Probably. I replied sincerely because there ARE people who prolong a diseased , codependent scenario with these tricks instead of leaving as they should.

I mean. It was a joke, but not that funny?

Definitely more stupid than funny... best response to jokes which aren't funny is to just ignore them, I find.

tbm42 @87: what are you not seeing? This man does not care enough for you , and you jump around the world trying to accomodate him. Why? Let him go.