Columns Jul 8, 2015 at 4:00 am

Disunion

Joe Newton

Comments

1
Earl Warren supported the internment of Japanese Americans then later redeemed himself by leading the Supreme Court to end segregation in schools with Brown vs Board of Education. Early mistakes are not the end of your story!
2
Wow. It's blowing my mind that that sentence could be conceived, typed, printed, and mailed by a government official. Even in 1985. Interesting story: http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/whe…
3
DHACA should immediately un-friend his asshole brother.
4
Actually Justice Kennedy's first major gay rights opinion was the Romer case in 1996.
5
DHACA-- Apologize? No. But, explain? Go for it.

You, like everyone, have a story to tell. Unlike everyone, yours sounds interesting. I see no reason to apologize for being a living, growing human who was born into one set of circumstances, formed one set of opinions, then learned, grew, thought, and formed another set of opinions. I'd be willing to bet that even now your future self won't agree with your present self on absolutely everything. So use facebook as your platform if that's where this is playing out. Say something about some of the things you thought and said (and campaigned for) when you were younger and what changed your mind.

Kids at various times go through astronaut phases, deeply religious phases when they want to grow up to become a nun, phases when they want to grow up to become an accountant, smart ass phases when they use 4 letter words in front of teachers (and think they're cool for it), phases when they smoke a lot of dope then renounce it, phases when they're certain they're going to marry their best friend forever, and on and on. You could post a picture of yourself at age 12 with the family dog and an explanation that this is when you wanted to be a veterinarian.

As for your asshole brother. He probably remembers when you pooped in diapers too-- as though that was something to be ashamed of. I wouldn't drag him into it. Ignore his comment, or if you feel that you must say something, make it vague along the lines of "we sure have changed a lot, haven't we". Resist the temptation to hint that there are a few things you know about him from the long past too.
6
Not to go all Prodigal Son here, but it seems to me that people should be every bit as grateful, if not more so, to the folks who started on the wrong side of history and CHANGED THEIR MINDS. If nobody ever changed their minds, the situation would be in eternal stalemate. (Thus, in particular they should at this late point in history, having won the battle.) This ability of the human being to take in new information and reevaluate their condition is what makes possible the principle, "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice."
7
That said, it wouldn't hurt to apologize for the years of harm done by actually being on the wrong side of history for so long.
8
I beg DHACA to please share their story! Let people know that people can become enlightened, that not all supporters of Marriage Equality started out as bra-burning hippies, that people can start out close-minded and that life experiences and Meeting Other People is the fastest way to gain empathy and perspective. And be the bigger person too, don't out your brother for his underage drinking or pot-smoking or listening to Nickleback or whatever he would not want the internet to know.
9
The thanks due in this case strike me as being approximately reciprocal - thanks for being open to change and improving as a human being on one side, thanks for inspiring positive change on the other. I will not blame or ding Mr Savage, but I see what he did there.

I can see the points of Ms Crinoline and Mr Avast, but feel they are better fitted to a mainly theoretical realm rather than a world in which the actions of LW and similar other people contributed to real harm's being done to real people.

In one respect, I find the letter confusing. LW owns up to Republicanism and "voting for anti-gay ballot initiatives". Brother claims LW "campaigned against gay rights". (If forced, I'd guess LW to be a woman, but wouldn't back the guess at all.) To some extent, I can see a scale on initiatives, some of which were (almost entirely) ceremonial or concerned with minor points in areas where major points already had adequate protections in place. But actually campaigning against gay rights is a major step up from just voting for something one may well not really have given a serious thought from one voting day to the next.

I shall dock LW for "In a former life" and "in my previous life", which basically try to deny that people just like LW's current friends may well have suffered serious harm to which LW (perhaps) made a significant contribution. Real people were hurt by the real effects of real policies LW supported, people just like the friends who inspired LW to make good changes. Sweeping that under the rug if anything makes it much more difficult if not impossible to honour LW's positive change. I'm a little too exhausted to be coherent just now, but my initial guess is that LW has understandably not made waves.

Sorry; I can't be as coherent as I need to be and so shall stop here for now.
10
No one is born with the perfect and eternally correct beliefs and understandings. Realizing and accepting that we are flawed and working to correct the injustices that have no direct impact on us is to be commended. Ultimately, what sense does it make to advocate for change, then penalize the people who changed in the way you were advocating for?
11
Might not get to @100 this week Venn.
Was only joking last week Dan, of course we need you. And where has the letter of the day gone?
Lucky the deciding State of Origin rugby league football game is on tonight.
Go Queensland. My adopted state of origin.
12
Avast @6
>>This ability of the human being to take in new information and reevaluate their condition is what makes possible the principle, "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.">>

It's also because new generations want to see themselves as wiser and more just than their grandparents. And the grandparents die off (which silences their voice). There's a smidgen of "history is written by the victors" at work.
13
Regrets, I've had a few.
And unfriend that dipshit brother of yours. What a tosser.
Thoughts of killing your ex/ to be,
Not good while you're pregnant.
Negative emotions, like alcohol, not good for you now. Enjoy and when you go into labour, groan into the contractions- not yell out, that way you loose your energy. Just as the contractions hit, groan into the intensity of each one.
14
Half time and Qld 22. NSW 2.
Before you unfriend your brother, facebookMan, maybe he needs some help. He struggling with his own homophobia? Then perhaps, on facebook, if front of all your FB friends,
take him thru the steps you went in
your transformation. From a homophobe to a lover of gay men. Or rather, a person who loves men who are gay.
No apology needed. Then unfriend him.
15
Ms Crinoline - [ I see no reason to apologize for being a living, growing human who was born into one set of circumstances, formed one set of opinions, then learned, grew, thought, and formed another set of opinions.]

While I agree with the sentence as far as it goes, I'll add that apologizing for how one acted on beliefs in ways that hurt people directly shows the willingness and ability to centre the victim instead of making it all about what may come across as some airy-dairy reflections about One's Personal Journey Through Life.

I can imagine possible histories for LW that would put me very close to being in your corner, which is why I think details matter. To analogize, one might propose the existence of considerable difference in the pasts of two now firmly pro-choice people if, say, A just vaguely believed religious teachings for some years and presented as pro-life while B regularly showed up to block the entrance to family planning clinics.
16
DHACA: I see no harm in saying something like "Brother is right. A long time ago, I was ignorant and didn't understand about LGBT rights. I was brainwashed by the church and fell for their lies. But fortunately, as I grew into an adult I saw how wrong I was. I can only hope that at some point Brother does the same."
17
52/6 to Queensland.
Need I say More.
18
Ms Lava - Your interpretation is plausible, but here's another: LW and Brother were born into Conservafamily in Conservatown. LW followed the anti-gay herd and was rewarded by family and society; Brother had nonstraight friends and took considerable flak for supporting them. After the Great Awakening, LW out of shame chose just to try to bury the past and ignore it while out of sibling rivalry not acknowledging that the preferential treatment LW received in the past was undeserved. Seeing one of LW's new friends making an entirely accurate statement as far as the duration of the friendship extended, Brother lost his temper and lashed out.

Even in that scenario, I'm not going to disagree with anyone's assessment of Brother's character. But, if I were a friend of LW, I'd say that the best revenge on Brother for trying to spoil a period of charming sentiment between friends would be to thank Brother for outing LW as a former homophobe and by so doing allowing the friendship to deepen through the ability to have open discussion of the change narrative and LW's not having to hide or fail to engage fully through fear of being punished for past mistakes.

I'm inclined to guess LW has a way to go still at this point, but LW has come far, which should be celebrated. Now it can be; to that extent, Brother has inadvertently done LW a favour.
19
LW1's brother was indeed an ass to post as he did. But I can't help wondering (admittedly, with no evidence) if he did so because LW1 suffers from Marriage Equality Amnesia, a common syndrome I've often witnessed. With MEA, even comparatively recent supporters of marriage equality, upon becoming such supporters, immediately and publicly act as if opposition to marriage equality is morally and intellectually impossible in sane and non-evil people -- *without* acknowledging that they have themselves "evolved" (to use the words of Pres. Obama) and that they weren't necessarily insane or evil, say, three years ago. Perhaps LW1's brother was tired of what he sees as hypocrisy *and* uncharitableness, if LW1 is the kind of supporter (and there are many of them) who acts as if anyone who opposes marriage equality is subhuman and unchangeable, while conveniently forgetting that he or she was this person a short time ago.
20
Mr Avast - I was in the gallery of my state legislature (back in my activist days) when our state's gay rights bill died on a tied vote. Four years later, it passed. Yes, the legislators who changed their minds on the issue were important and their progress was appreciated. But my strongest gratitude and the largest hypothetical cookies I distributed were to those who'd sponsored and supported the bill the first time around and continuously thereafter. Your suggestion of being most grateful to changers feels a little similar to the way, going back again, a number of Pride organizations would neglect the deserving body of work of a longtime stalwart in order to honour someone with a bit of notoriety for being Johnny/Joanie Come Out Lately.
21
LW 1: “She used to stalk me until she finally moved back to the Pacific Northwest.”
Just in case you need a Seattle-area divorce lawyer to serve the papers: his question appeared in this column last month, he went into endless, elaborate arguments in the comments section, he has some “friends” who continued those very same annoying arguments after he told us he’s done, there were well over 400 comments that week, he shagged at least 20 beautiful women.

Hunter- I always knew that some day wearing baby dolls would pay off. Thanks for awarding me a point at last week’s round up.
23
Whatever the history is with the Brothers, it was a shit act.
Unfriend him until it is resolved thru other channels. Facebook is not the place to air Family shit.
So what? We all had to do the journey. I was never repuled by male homosexuality, i was ambivalent about it. Or neutral. Can't remember.
Now, I feel the love. Excuse the corny words, that's just how best I can describe it. Now I feel the love men have for each other. I also love men, so I can understand where the impulse comes from.
Homosexual women have always been in my life. I went to Convent Schools, women in love with each other everywhere.
24
@10: "No one is born with the perfect and eternally correct beliefs and understandings."

This. Just wait 30 years and ask anyone born today.

I agree with Crinoline, too. LW: "My brother is correct. I also used to poop in diapers. In both cases, I got older, wiser and more suitable for polite company."

FWIW, I think Venn's right that more cookies go to the people who were right before the mob was right; moral courage is valuable. "When my friends were all against you, I was against you; when my friends are on your side, so am I" isn't much of a display of character, though it's better than nothing.

What happens if the LW moves again, and starts hanging out with some right-wing religious fundamentalists? LW is so far 0 for 2 on standing up to anybody for anything. I'm glad our side won the fight, so that now the bandwagon-jumpers are the right side, but I think it's easy to overestimate what that actually means. Good on the LW for changing his/her mind when faced with overwhelming evidence and overwhelming peer pressure. There would be bonus cookies, though, if the overwhelming evidence alone had been enough.
25
Ms Lava - We agree on the assessment of Brother's action. You raised the possibility of Brother's being homophobic, and Ms Fan seemed to take that as a given. Ms(?) Rocket has instanced a plausible variation on my theme. I want to know whether Ms Fan or Ms Rocket is closer to the truth before completing the apportionment of the blame between LW and Brother.
26
I'm not sure when it became such a virtue to never change, to never grow, to remain steadfast in whatever attitude, whether misguided or morally righteous, we had before we learned more.
You see it all the time in politics, when politicians are excoriated for "flip-flopping" on an issue or changing their position.

Furthermore, the attitude that changing shows some sort of core weakness seems to go hand in hand with never admitting wrong, never apologizing.

Bonus cookies, bonus points, whatever. The important thing is that the lw changed and changed for the better. For whatever reason. Even if what s/he did over 18 years ago caused harm, it sounds as though s/he is a different person now. Are we never allowed to move forward? The lw should acknowledge the truth of brother's revelation, and straighten out whether s/he merely voted for antigay measures or actively campaigned for them (one requires a deeper apology), then apologize for them, explain the journey of enlightenment, and express the pleasure s/he feels now that many others in the country have changed the same way over the past 18 years. S/he is hardly alone. If not for the changes of mind and heart of a whole lot of people, many of whom worked hard for marriage equality over the past decade or more (and some over less time, too), we wouldn't be where we are now.

Change is Good. Admitting to having changed is admirable. Brother can go fuck himself, but leave that part off of Facebook.
27
15- Mr. Venn-- Agree completely. It makes sense to apologize for actions more than for beliefs.

Next question: Where is the line between action and a belief? The LW says that s/he used to vote in an objectionable way. Voting is certainly an action, but it comes close to being as amorphous as a belief.

Next question: If an apology was in order, how would that go? Apologize to whom? I'm imagining walking up to 2 men in the supermarket whom one assumes to be gay, approaching, and saying "I just wanted to apologize. You see, I used to be a Republican who opposed gay rights, but I know better now. I'm really sorry for voting against equality before." The comic possibilities in this scene would be priceless if the appalled and tragic ones weren't so close to the surface too.

I suppose one could apologize to one's facebook friends who presumably know the LW better than those imaginary folks at Publix. Still, I'm trying to figure out if they'd appreciate it. This brings me back to my comments in 5. Me, I love to hear people's thoughtful comments about themselves. I'm not so big on random apologies.

12- EricaP-- Yes. History is written by the victors. I noticed it too. You found better words for it.
28
@27 - Crinoline: If an apology was in order, how would that go? Apologize to whom? I'm imagining walking up to 2 men in the supermarket whom one assumes to be gay, approaching, and saying "I just wanted to apologize. You see, I used to be a Republican who opposed gay rights, but I know better now. I'm really sorry for voting against equality before."
Well, since this whole thing has played out on Facebook, it seems that that is where any apologies and explanations should go. After all, the lw is responding to friends who are thanking him/her for unwavering support and are saying things like, "oh no, I can't believe your brother--you could never have been against marriage equality." S/he isn't talking about walking up to random strangers, so the apology isn't "random." But I don't think it needs to be an abject apology, simply an acknowledgment of change and an apology for previously-held beliefs with an affirmation of how happy the lw is to have been enlightened.
30
"Marriage Equality Amnesia" is a keeper.

@26: Who is saying that never changing is a virtue?

Someone who is virtuous and always was? Incredibly rare--but also incredibly impressive. Here, have a bunch of cookies. Someone who is more virtuous than they used to be? Is a human--and a good one. Here, have some cookies.

Someone whose previous principle was to believe whatever the mob says, and whose new principle is to believe whatever the mob says? It's easy to overstimate how much they've changed. Maybe they have, maybe they haven't. Joining the winning side is a very strong human impulse. Here, have one cookie.

There are the diehard bigots, the moderately-committed bigots, the people who aren't active bigots but are fine with bigotry, and the people who actually oppose it. Switching sides after the fight proves you aren't the first.

But that's all it proves. Being a recent conversion to the pro-equality side only proves that you're not one of the people so committed to bigotry that you'll go die-hard on the anti-equality side once that side has clearly lost.

Have a cookie, sure. But more cookies for the people who joined the fight back when it was still a fight, rather than people who only show up for the victory party--which is not to say anyone should be turned away from the victory party. I don't think anyone's arguing for kicking people out of the victory party, just that maybe the people who skipped the fight shouldn't expect medals.

People shouldn't be proud of parroting whatever their friends say, even if what they're parroting now happens to be more virtuous than what they used to parrot. While it's strictly better than the alternative, it's nothing to be admired; caving to peer pressure isn't as heroic as the Marriage Equality Amnesia cases seem to think.

TL, DR: They aren't the allies in that fight, they're the trophies.
31
If Obama and Hillary can "evolve" on the issue of same sex marriage I am willing to give everyone else the opportunity.

What you did in the past is in the past. What you do now is what matters now.
32
I don't think you can use Kennedy's legal decisions to say much about how he feels /felt personally. His ruling in the earlier case may have been constrained by previous case law, etc. A judge would have to let a suspect convicted of heinous crime go free if, say, his Miranda rights were violated.

Conservatives already whine about every SCOTUS decision they don't like as an overreaching court trying to legislate. Let's not give them any ammo.
33
Ms Cute - I thank you for appreciating the point of the apology, and I speak specifically as someone who was fired for being gay. Too many people display the attitude that, because everything is fine now, we should all just move along without their taking the important step of showing that they really Get It, or at least are in the process of Getting It. I hold that to be an important part of people's being able to move forward together, especially if one party of the two wants to be a genuine Gold Star Ally (and not just be given the title without truly deserving it).

*****

Ms Crinoline - Random apologies? I was thinking of very targeted apologies. I imagine that, in LW's personal friendships, LW has funked plenty of opportunities to cop to having been awfully wrong on nonstraight issues in the past. (Perhaps not, but the air in the letter of not wanting to be punished seems tolerable support for such a point of view.) Again, if I were a friend of LW's and LW just made thoughtful self-centring comments about LW's past efforts to keep orientation-based workplace discrimination legal, I'd likely interpret it as just a lot of pretty (or not-so-pretty) airy-dairy theory that made it appear fifty times more important to LW that LW's mind was changed than that LW's actions contributed to real harm done to real people. I'd find any apology showing the ability to centre victims of the policies for which LW advocated to be a big point in LW's favour.

Agreed as to voting being an action, but was mainly trying to put this onto a scale mentality. For all we know, LW could have voted for that ghastly measure in Colorado back in the day that prevented municipalities from banning orientation-based discrimination or the one in California that tried to get rid of all the SS teachers (just to recall a couple from back in the day). Some votes were much more ceremonial than practical in their effects; I could see some prejudiced votes as being relatively low-harm and perhaps more suited to an explanation than an apology.

*****

Having slept on it, I still don't like "in a former/my previous life," which is the sort of phrase one uses to describe a belief that one was, say, a servant of Cromwell's who assisted in some betrayal of Wolsey. I am quite prepared to give LW full credit for thinking and feeling very differently from how LW thought and felt when LW was a staunch Republican, but that still was this life.
34
I think an apology is absolutely in order--even required. It should be heartfelt and more or less abject as befits whatever the lw did in the past to suppress rights for gay people. After all, those actions had consequences--they hurt people directly and indirectly affected people's lives, their livelihoods, safety, ability to access what should have been their civil rights, etc.

The apology should not take the form of "I'm sorry if you were offended," either. It should be along the lines of "I'm sorry I ________. I realize that it was wrong and I know it caused a lot of grief. I am embarrassed to admit that back in 1996 I didn't know better; I had been raised with ________ views and hadn't thought to question them. I didn't know many tolerant people and I wasn't aware that I knew any gay people. I'm glad that I've moved forward . . . and then the rest of the explanation, followed by a declaration of ongoing support and a request for forgiveness."

It's easy to say "I didn't know any better then," and while that's good, it's not enough. It's harder to acknowledge that you did things or voted for things that materially caused other people harm, and furthermore that that was the intent of the things you did. But it needs to be said to be able to earn the respect of the people whose side you're now on, as well as for your own self-respect.

Just my two cents.
35
@32: Given that he joined the majority in Bush v. Gore, and decided that the second article to the 15th amendment doesn't exist, I think it's pretty clear that Kennedy doesn't feel at all restricted by the Constitution, any more than the (even more) wingnutty judges do.

Conservatives whine about overreach whether there is or isn't any, and have no hesitation whatsoever about overreach themselves. We shouldn't base any of our choices on the risk of whining from them, because we can take the whining for granted. It doesn't mean anything.
36
@Eudaemonic: There is a culture in this country of condemning a politician whose views have changed. They get accused of being wishy-washy and of flip-flopping on issues, as if that is a character flaw. This has been used mostly towards democrats, but occasionally it's hauled out and leveled at republicans. And yet only incredibly arrogant idiots never change and hold that constancy as a political virtue. Think Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush.

Look at how many people are still angry at Hillary Clinton for having supported the Iraq war (though almost everyone did) or how many people hate Obama for having said, in his 2008 campaign that he was against gay marriage. They can't accept his "evolution" (even if it is obvious that he feigned opposition to same sex marriage as a political expediency and bided his time). They seem to believe that once an opinion, always the same opinion.

Maybe "virtue" is the wrong word, but it seems to me that lately politicians get a lot of heat for changing their minds, which suggests that we think constancy of opinions, no matter now misguided they come to appear is a virtue.
37
@Nocute--I think politicians are a special case, since a politician is basically asking you to trust them to further your interests, unsupervised and in the face of opposition. In which case it really matters whether their (current) expression of support for your cause is sincere or not, and it matters whether they'll maintain their current position when facing pressure to do otherwise.

Someone who claims to care about your rights only when it's popular to make that claim is someone you can't trust to defend your rights. Popularity comes and goes, so if you're looking for someone who can be trusted to defend you, try to pick someone who does it when it isn't the only popular option.

...of course, this becomes complicated with politicians and marginalized populations, because the people willing to speak up for you often don't have the power to do anything for you; those traits will be inversely correlated.
38
To be fair, I don't think politicians should get as much heat as they do for "flip-flopping," but I understand where it comes from, and why people see it as a red flag.
39
@Eudaemonic: Good points @37-28, but it still strikes me that it is symbolic of a culture that doesn't appreciate people's ability to grow and change.
40
I've long thought that divorce rights are just as important as wedding rights, and UNCIVILU's case illustrates exactly why.
41
@39: Yeah. Sadly, I suspect it's going to get much worse before it gets better, and it's a good reason to be a free speech absolutist.

We should all be grateful for being too old for Facebook to have existed when we were young enough to post anything really embarrassing.
42
Lots of stuff about forgiveness/or not, moving on, etc.
Just want to point to an article by Mr. Savage himself, published couple of weeks ago. It may not apply to some of this week's situation/s, yet still a good read:

http://www.thestranger.com/features/feat…
43
Eud @39:
"We should all be grateful for being too old for Facebook to have existed when we were young enough to post anything really embarrassing."

I'm with you, and despite being supposedly "mature" I still don't have a facebook account for that very same reason.
44
Who is this guy going to apologize to?
His FB friends, who have only known him as a man who accepts the gays amongst them? Doesn't make sense to me.
He could express his regret for having homophobic attitudes in the past,
I see no need for him to apologize.
45
I use FB, CMD.. Not to chat, cause you know I can chat in private. Or share every bloody minute of every day as I rear my small children, though I can guess it helps these young women not feel so lonely as they tend their children.
I have different age people on my FB account, they access good stories/ jokes etc, and I get to read them and then share the ones that need sharing.
46
I almost always think that Crinoline's posts are gems. But explaining bad behavior and justifying bad behavior are impossible to differentiate (for me- if anyone else can see a difference please share- I simply dislike explanations unless/until I ask what happened). I don't like apologies in general really. If you make a mistake and it inconveniences someone else, help to clean up your mess. If you sold someone out to get what you wanted and later feel bad, ask how to repair the relationship. And if you piss someone off too much, accept that might walk away, don't throw a fit and stalk them or plead for one last chance etc.

This is a tough call for me because LW may have hurt his non straight friends indirectly. But I don't think that he owes his friends an apology about his bigoted behaviors since his friends were not directly hurt by him, it even sounds like he's in a different community/city possibly (previous life ref).

I don't think that white people owe black friends an apology if they spread racist views as young adults either. (Mention bigotry of any kind and that's what I think of). They should be prepared to deal with the consequences of their actions, LW's friends might think he's shady and distance themselves if he sounds shady when he admits what he did. But he said he's ashamed, so I doubt he'll come off as shady, he'll probably come off as ashamed of himself...

It sounds like he's been cleaning up his mess by befriending non straight people and contributing to their lives. I think that's his main responsibility; clean up his mess, not say "I'm sorry" to every one he ever might have badly influenced.

If he can talk non defensively about his past, it might help his friends deal with bigotry in a better way. I see no other benefit to them. I don't think that having a whipping boy actually helps anyone; it's a temporary feel-good fix that helps as much as a beer.
47
One of the most moving comments I read on the day that gay marriage became marriage.period was from a latin friend who talked about growing out of his homophobic culture, religion and upbringing to become someone excited about marriage.period and who will love and accept his son for whoever he grows up to be. It reminded me that to not write anyone off in future conversations about equality, race, or politics. Knowing that he changed inspires me to keep working for change in this world.
Tell them you changed. It builds more bridges and causes more good change in the future.
48
Maybe a whipping boy is the wrong analogy. Someone to blame. Outlet for frustrations. Human vent.
49
I hereby apologize to the assembled company. I want to be, in general, positive to and about LW, but so many other people are being a little too positive and in a way I'm finding problematic that it's probably better if I just say nothing. This comes after about an hour of trying to compose posts making two or three different points, but nothing is going in a good direction. Sorry again.
50
Punching bag was the phrase I was looking for. He doesn't have to be a human punching bag, to stand in for conservative Republicans everywhere. But he does need to deal with the consequences of his actions, and if his friends treat him differently and grow distant, he can try to earn their trust back or let them go with good grace if they've been hurt too badly by bigotry, can't accept his past etc. I think the end sentence would be perfect "You can be ashamed of the person you once were but proud of the person you are now" without mentioning the judges.
51
Enlightenment is an evolution. The fact that people actually do change their minds about long-held beliefs shows that they listen, consider, process, and admit their old position may have been wrong. Which of course never happens on the internet.
I don't think the LW needs to apologize either, but the opportunity to share the evolution of her beliefs could be damned enlightening for some... maybe even her jackass brother. I'm dying to hear if he's like this all the time or just on this issue. God, Facebook brings out the worst in people. Hope the LW chimes in here?
52
My 2 cents on the LW whose beliefs have changed: s/he should 1) briefly explain and apologize on Facebook, 2) work to reverse the effects of "previous life" voting choices and other discriminatory behavior by publicly (but not ostentatiously) doing the opposite - voting, campaigning and contributing to activities that promote real equality for queer folk.

This way s/he would take care of both the theoretical and practical, and address past, present and future.
53
Here's a story for you Philo.
An hour or so ago, two of my sons erupted in the small shared lounge room at our compound.
The 27 yr old and the 23yr old. The latter does weekend Filming at rodeos the former is a Carpenter. Both filled with testosterone. Erupted over some small
Incident and the younger one was screaming at the older one, then the older one was on him. Both are strong bodied young men.
On the floor, no punches( thank you boys), but it was a fight.
I, off course, tried to steer the older one out, no luck, he pushed me aside.
So I rang the police. They were murderous with each other, or so it seemed. I was just up to telling the female operator the address, when the older one said- he's leaving- as in the younger one was leaving the room, having been shown the older one's strength.
Also, they could hear me talking to the Police, they didn't want that. I cancelled the call out, she asked me the ages of these louts and understood.
They didn't break anything, just some very strange expression of some male ness, I Have No Understanding Of.
Told them both though, it ever happen again, the police would come.
54
"But explaining bad behavior and justifying bad behavior are impossible to differentiate (for me"

It's worrying that Phil feels comfortable admitting in public that she thinks knowledge is evil. Anything that gets in the way of burning heretics is to be feared, eh?

Can't have Those People looking too human, or it'd be harder to drum up support for a lynch mob. Which, apparently, is the only real goal.

Bad news, Philo: Other people are people. Even if it's inconvenient (for you) for them to be people.
55
@43: "I'm with you, and despite being supposedly "mature" I still don't have a facebook account for that very same reason."

Hey, I thought I was the only one!

The funny part is going to be watching people's political careers blow up, as soon as the generation that was young enough for their teenage behavior at parties to end up on Facebook gets old enough to run for Congress.

I figure it'll take about a generation before the media just accepts that yes, everyone was 17 once and did stupid things in front of cameras.
57
Lava - I think of higher testosterone levels in men in general too. But some women take steroids, and some trans women are not on hormones. Women need testosterone to live too, and both sexes can get a fucked up pituitary gland, so I hope you don't mean that testosterone effects make you a man. And not all men are like your boys, some men deal with conflict non violently quite well. Seinfeld is in the background - I can't easily imagine Jerry getting mussed up in a fight. I do think that men in my culture are called to protect themselves and others physically more often. The closest I can come to understanding was a girl who wanted to fight me when we got off the bus, when I started junior high I think. I didn't know her. She changed her mind while we were still on the bus, I heard this all through her friend. It was weird. All of my actual physical fights growing up were consensual. I agreed to get off the bus early and fight the girl from my childhood but it wasn't consensual sparring, I felt the need to avoid future problems. And I was kinda curious to meet her, who introduces themselves like that?

Sorry about your boys. Yes, posturing power plays typically look different in men and women, although I think my story illustrates it can look similar for women as men, and I've heard men shaming others and other non violent manipulation on this board. I think I've observed what you may be saying; that men seem to have more energy, and perhaps are more hands-on. I tend to be dismissive of the differences in bad behavior between the sexes. Physical and non physical unconsensual manipulation are equally bs to me, they can both hurt like hell. In short, I would not dismiss their bad behavior as "strange maleness". I believe it's typical human aggression channeled badly.

Not sure if you were asking for advice... But this IS an advice column so... Maybe ban the pusher from the house for a bit. Talk to them about it after they cool off. You can use the "female" aggressive approach and shame your son for pushing around an old lady trying to get to his brother. Or the "male" aggressive approach and ask him for a fair fight with pads instead. Or the therapist approach and recommend anger management. I think I'd insist on talking about it a lot. I would not put out a kiddie table for them in the future.

Oh look my Internet Stalker is back to illustrate how a man can show "female" aggression, non violent, just shaming/insulting verbal pressure type of posturing. I'm sure he has some explanation for his aggressiveness toward me when I ignore him too.
58
@25: You are correct, I assumed DHACA's brother was petty AND a bigot. He may indeed have been just petty. Perhaps he is, as Venn postulates, sore because he was on the right side all along and Johnny/Joanie Come Lately is getting the kudos now. Either way, he's petty. (Just as petty as the "friend" of mine who replied to a funny photo I posted by making a bitchy crack about dirt in my kitchen. I responded in bitchy kind, and he unfriended me. Then a mutual friend stepped in to tell me that *I* was out of line? Ah Facebook, can't live with, can't have a social life without you.)
59
@53/@57: I have been physically attacked by women on a few occasions. Yes it's more rare, but having to show off that one is bigger and stronger (which, hello, anyone could have easily seen just by looking at us -- and in one case she needed help from a friend??) is not exclusive to males.
60
Ms Fan - Certainly Brother is petty, whatever his motivation, but I'm sticking with the interpretation that he's done LW an inadvertent favour here. LW was not so much cleaning up the mess as pretending it never happened or didn't count, and now those of LW's friendships with nonstraights that continue will be able to thrive on a deeper and more open level.
61
On June 26th, 2015, divorce lawyers all over the USA did a happy dance. Twice the clients! Woo Hoo!
62
Perhaps DHACA's brother has always been in favor of gay rights...and he doesnt appreciate his sanctimonious sister acting like she has always been in favor of equality. Just a thought. Siblings have complicated relationships.... and we have only this one-sided bit of info to go on.... which certainly makes the brother seem petty...but my guess is that there is more to the story (either he is currently anti-gay-marriage...or has NEVER been....)

My 2 cents on UNCIVILU - ... when you make a legal decision to tie the knot (by whatever exact wording is available at the time) you actually have to DEAL with the consequences. I find it convenient that you used something to your advantage in Vermont... then opted to pretend it never happened when it no longer suited you. Undoing these decisions is not the sole purview of the opposite-sex marriage crowd. Ok... chastising over... Take the advice of dealing with this legally... dont bury your head in the sand.
63
Should we forgive DHACA? Did she use her homophobia for commercial benefit? No? She didn't post Vines of herself screaming "Fag!" ? Okay, she's not Nash Grier. Did she claim to be "an artist" and then use anti-gay slurs on social media as a way of fitting in with her target demographic as an easy way to sell albums, rather than challenging societal norms like real artists do? No? Then she's not Iggy Azaela (or WeverTF that rancid twat's name is). SO since she didn't use anti-gay sentiment as a cheap marketing tool to make herself money, unlike Nash Grier or Iggy Azaela, DHACA can be forgiven.

Seriously Dan, I'm not sure whether to tell you to get off either your horse or the cross, but you're not being subtle here, you're just being tedious: Nash Grier and Iggy Whatever don't automatically qualify for forgiveness just because they said "sorry" when their homophobic bullshit turned bad for their bottom line.

Here's the easy two-prong test to see if formerly anti-equality people should be forgiven: 1) Did they benefit either financially or politically from engaging in or otherwise promoting ant-LGBTQ hatred? and 2) Did they put in the time and effort to get to know the LGBTQ community and therefore come to understand why, as human beings, we deserve the same respect and rights as everyone else? If the answer to (1) is "no," and the answer to (2) is "yes," then you should probably forgive the person. Any other combination of answers is not only NOT an automatic forgive, it's perfectly acceptable to say "FUCK YOU, NO, NEVER, GO TO HELL. ROT. BURN."
64
Philo; not looking for advice.
Yes females fight each other.
Can't ignore though that males do it much more readily, why is that such an issue to ignore?
And yes some males never solve a problem with physical voilence, their minds strongly developed.


65
Rancid Twat? @63. Hard core.
66
Of course it is a great thing that LW2 changed his views. He should be proud of that change.

I am today a very progressive, strongly left-leaning, gay-married homo. I would rather poke my eye out with a rusty nail than vote for a republican. But that wasn't always so. When I was 18 I was closeted, confused, and much more conservative. While not explicitly racist, I had zero awareness of minority issues of any kind. The only thing that kept me from voting for Ronald Reagan in 1980 was the fact that I wasn't yet a US citizen. When I look back, I am appalled and embarrassed by some of the stupid shit I said and did when I was a young man.

So you aren't the only one who has changed their opinions over the years. Thank goodness for change. Own it and own your growth and improvement. Don't hide from it.

And unfriend your asshole of a brother.
67
Man, the DHACA's letter is a poster-child for the difference between conservative and liberal. Conservatives (like the brother) continue to cling to what they were taught as a child and refuse to change. Even in the face of obvious, glaring facts and common sense. Liberals, when faced with new phenomenon and information, will evolve and allow those old assumptions to drop away.

Yes, if there's a problem with liberals, it's that they won't continue doing this. But they are a few steps ahead of those who absolutely refuse to evolve and develop from their childhood.
68
Lava @64- still with you on the gender difference
 and believe me Philo, I tried to go around it


mtiffany71 @63- I understand your anger and frustration, you sure made valid points. As for "rancid twat", I'd like to once again refer the public to Mr. Savage forgiveness piece published in The Stranger's pride issue couple of weeks ago. Rancid Twat gets an honorary mention:
http://www.thestranger.com/features/feat…
69
Sorry- did i miss something? Do we actually KNOW that DHACA's brother is conservative? or anti gay rights? he may just be a jerk... (and there are plenty of liberal jerks in the world). Also, is the LW a man? i automatically assumed woman (likely only because i have a sister and no brothers.... and my mind automatically filled in the LW as the sister... but obviously that is flawed... i just wondered if i missed something in the letter or Dan's response that made it clear that the LW is a man... and honestly... it really makes no difference in this context... so i guess i dont really need to know)

There are no hard fast rules for when to forgive someone. Forgive them if you want to... don't if you don't want to... Someone who is truly contrite for past opinions should be forgiven in my world. Someone who is truly contrite for past ACTIONS... perhaps not. Just depends i guess. The bigger question is: will this person learn from those past mistakes? or will they repeat them in alternate forms?
70
LW2:

"Never be ashamed to admit you [were] in the wrong—it’s just another way to say you are wiser today than yesterday.” —Jonathan Swift
71
Philo; I got to finish off the job, helping my boys become decent men. This energy of which I speak, it exists. It's real. I know they learnt from their father that the aggressive impulse is ok to be given into. They get permission from a lot of other males as well.
They are both good young men,
and I just go thru the incident with them, after the event. Usually thru text. They know that shit is primitive and dangerous, and I can't believe they feel good about themselves afterwards.
72
Chairman, I just assumed the LW was a man. Use of language perhaps?
76
@74 Taking part of my argument and presenting it out of context while implying that it is my whole argument and then asking me if I can't see how the part of my argument you are misrepresenting as my whole argument is morally deficient is called "concern trolling." It's also intellectually dishonest, but where concern trolls are concerned, that's a tautology.

But since you are not a concern troll (because the Stranger has a better quality of readership than that), I'm sure it was just an honest mistake because you maybe didn't read all the way through (that tl;dr will get you every time!), or maybe you just skimmed though and didn't quite understand what I was saying.
77
Here we go again, having to look closely to find the sex of the LW.
In rereading the Letter, yes, I can see it might be a woman. I can also see she/ he Voted and campaigned for anti gay measures. Didn't compute that first time round.
Mm, not a good look at all. Big big turn around then.
Jesus yes, LW. You were a shit. Now you're not one.
78
Actually, I just added a tick to the M side of the potential gender markers in the letter, and the score is now 7-6 F, which is hardly definitive (perhaps it's a hint that Mr Federer will win the first set tomorrow by tie-break).
79
as a married gay man, thanks DHACA for opening your heart and mind and changing your mind on this issue. I would never hold your past views against you.
80
Go Queensland!!
81
@36 nocutename: I'd rather not have to think about the twin disasters of Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush right now, or ever (aaaiiiigghhhh!!), but otherwise, I hear you (in your comment to Eudamonic).

82
Another informative and excellent read again this week. Thanks Dan, LWs, and commenters!

Mr. Venn--how are you doing?
LavaGirl: How are you, and how is your winter?
Sissoucat: Commen tallez vous?
sb53: Still there?
83
Re; @63 & @65: I'm still reeling over "rancid twat"........!

Uhhhhhhhhhh.......did I overstep myself...?
(I feel a little like Ben Stein as the Voo-Doo Ecomonics teacher in Ferris Bueller's Day Off: "Anyone?...anyone?...")
84
O-o-kaaaayyyy....I'll shut up now.
85
Lava - There's a novel coming your way.

CMD - I don't mind if you skip my posts or disagree with my ideas. I don't consider these things impolite. I still like to hear your thoughts.

Hun - Aggressive yet smooth.

@76 I think that Hun was saying that most people haven't befriended those in the LGBT community and would fall into your "FUCK YOU, NO, NEVER, GO TO HELL. ROT. BURN." camp. I can't see why it's unwise to hate most of humanity although that sounds very uncomfortable... but to tell most people to fuck off may not be in your best interest. Results may vary. Up to you.
86
Most people who changed from holding straight marriage sacred to marriage equality, I mean.
87
Lava - Yes females fight each other. Can't ignore though that males do it much more readily
I don't agree that fighting is masculine, which is what I think you are driving at. I know both women and men who behave on a scale from Courtney Love to Jerry Seinfeld. I'm honestly not sure if more men or women chastise others on this forum, it's close.

why is that such an issue to ignore?
There are many effects of different gender, and I'll talk about chromosomes or hormones or presentation or gender bias. I think that everyone agrees men and women are different or you wouldn't use these words to distinguish humans. But different people have different ideas about what gender is, and you can't prove any of these ideas wrong or right, and those personal ideas are largely irrelevant to others. There is at least one legal definition in each country and a multitude of personal definitions or gender role opinions. I don't see how perpetuating your own gendered stereotypes helps anyone. Universalizing them is observably incorrect. I have seen them used as fuel to mock 'exceptions to the rule'. If you look at history, idle, rowdy young men have been a phenomenon, and seem to have been dealt with by warring until they literally died down. I'd rather not encourage a return to this by accepting rowdiness as manly. I'd rather they learn not to hurt others too much, learn to debate ethics, channel their aggression productively etc. I like having a large selection of men around ;)

Back to my overused analogy. A greater percentage of jailed black men than white men occur within their own populations in my country. I don't conclude that black men are by nature rowdier than white men. I'm drawn to speak about poverty and educational standards.

This energy of which I speak, it exists. It's real.
I'm sure that you perceive it because you repeat it confidently. Please be sure that I do not. If we're going back to mysterious unexplainable intangible gender differences, I'm tapping out re gender.

Also: I doubt the kids felt good about themselves after hearing mum call the cops. I hope the one who pushed you never does it again (maybe you could have a talk with him about osteo too). I would guess that they don't know another way to deal with bad feelings toward each other. I try to drop an argument and focus on something else until I know what I really want to do. There are lots of different conflict management techniques, I'm sure you could work with them to find something that works better for them. If they're open to change. Maybe after an osteo talk. All this assumes that they don't enjoy loud physical fighting.. if that's the way they like to interact but you dislike (and are endangered by) seeing it, you can make a new rule that they do it outside or in a certain more sound proof room while at your place.

CMD - I know this is a personal question and I hope it doesn't distress... but do you think if you had not been told that you were unmanly a lot when you were a kid... do you think that you'd still feel like a part time woman?
88
You make me feel
Like a part time woman.. Just popped into my head.
Philo; I get bamboozled
with how you talk of gender stuff, so I'm not too sure what you are saying.
I do think that yes, the males who are my sons, do gain some sort of release from the physical contact.
Personally, have never been in a physical fight nor seen one between females.
89
Lava - I fought a lot growing up in martial arts class. Girls, boys, women, men, much younger kids, invisible opponents... Great way to deal with puberty. Physical release is cool, I think you said you do yoga so maybe you can understand that way. If they weren't attacking each other but blowing off steam in a nice way for both, they can learn to do it in a considerate way for you.

The pushing thing made me think that they were out of control and dangerous toward each other. If so I hope they don't need to see "it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye" to believe it.

I'm not too sure what you are saying.
If you copy/paste the sentence(s) you find confusing, I can try to clear it up.
90
Ms(?) Tiffany - My guess is that some part of Mr Savage's motivation came from his having taken to Ms Scarcella, who, if memory serves, was a podcast guest shortly after she extended her (overreaching? While this doesn't fall into the category of straight Christians forgiving Nazis, I don't think it would be my place to say that SS women HAD to forgive someone who gleefully shouted the D-word) forgiveness of Mr Grier.

*****

Ms Phile - I suspect that, to some extent (like Marianne's idea of a competence being greater than Elinor's version of wealth), Ms(?) Tiffany and Mr Hunter are closer than it appears. I'd think that making a conscious effort to acquaint oneself with Umbrella Group [blank] and its issues would constitute one way of overcoming learned prejudice through rational means. Mr Hunter perhaps upholds the feminist ideal of the non-member of the group educating oneself instead of presenting to the group and asking to be educated.

I suppose you may well be right that most people follow the Mary Cheney model; I don't recall having counted, but it feels quite likely for an opening guess.
91
It took me a while to figure this one out.

Don't apologize for having once had different beliefs.
Do apologize for keeping an important part of your life developments away from close friends.

That doesn't mean that you have to tell friends everything. It does mean that it's hard to have real friendship, real intimacy, if you're keeping an important part of yourself blocked off. Friends can handle the fact that we've all had journeys. It's harder to deal with the idea that the people we feel close to have been hiding huge chunks of themselves. When we find out the secret from the long past, we feel lied to, and that's usually worse than whatever the lie was about in the first place.
92
Hello Auntie! Yes still here, but biz is slow in summer (I do this at work) and so I spend M-Th drumming up some sales, and save my wonderful S.L. friends for my "Friday Treat".
Re: LW#1: I cringe at things I wrote/said/did during the whole Vietnam War era when I was in high school and supported the war. I finally recall asking my Dad if the Vietnam War was my generations equivalent to WW-2 and his generation?. His answer blew my mind at the time (verbatim): "No, Tim. This war (Vietnam) is a political thing. You should not feel obligated to support it".
I thought long and hard about his words and began reading as much as I could about all the arguments for and against the war. In the end I changed my mind, and had to explain why to my group of friends.
People change and evolve, but most important is the thinking and opening up of ones mind to new/different ideas. It is In the thinking and opening-up of the mind that we grow as people.
sb
93
@Crinoline: "Don't apologize for having once had different beliefs.
Do apologize for keeping an important part of your life developments away from close friends."


I don't think people generally have to apologize for keeping an important part of their life's development away from close friends that they make subsequent to the development. If I, a secular (basically atheist) Jew, was raised a Presbyterian, why would I need to apologize for that development, either to friends I had before I dropped the one religion and adopted the other, or to friends I've made since the conversion? But that's not what this letter is describing; it's not just an important life development. Here's the original letter:

In a former life, I was a staunch Republican and voted for antigay ballot initiatives. Then, after a bad divorce 18 years ago, I moved to another state and fell in with an artistic crowd. Over the years, I became close friends with people with vastly different life experiences, and I've developed an entirely new attitude toward gay rights. My dilemma: When SCOTUS handed down their ruling making marriage a right for all, I congratulated all my non-straight friends on Facebook. One of those friends posted a note thanking me for "always being in [their] corner." My asshole brother then commented that not only had I not "always" been supportive, in my previous life I campaigned against gay rights. Several non-straight friends jumped to my defense, stating that it couldn't be true. I am ashamed of the person I was and have worked hard to be a better person. Is there any point in apologizing?

The lw voted for antigay ballot initiatives. Friends of more recent provenance believe him/her to have been a steadfast supporter, and it looks as though, if the brother hadn't interfered, DHACA would have allowed this more flattering, and less embarrassing view to stand uncorrected. Indeed, I would say, why should DHACA have had to confess his/her life development? S/he could have, it's true, and that would be admirable, but it wouldn't have been necessary and I think many people would feel ashamed of their past attitudes and actions and would not want to bring them up. And in many ways, it is beside the point. DHACA is who s/he is now, not who s/he was 18 years ago. The supportive friend and ally that this Facebook friend knows is really who DHACA is now, and who DHACA has been since this friendship began.

But the lw's brother, either a longer-term liberal supporter of gay rights who is angered that the johnny-come-latelys of the world are getting credit he doesn't believe they deserve, or a bigot-of-long-standing who is angry that his sibling has changed his/her spots and sold out the "staunch Republican" base, or just merely a brother being petty and angry and wanting to make things uncomfortable for his sibling has outed DHACA has having once actively done things that made it harder for gay people. That is why DHACA is wondering whether or not to apologize. This wasn't just a development of feelings or attitudes; in the past the lw took actions that made a material difference for the worse in the lives of people whose rights s/he now supports.

94
@93- nocute... i dont think that is what Crin meant. "If I, a secular (basically atheist) Jew, was raised a Presbyterian, why would I need to apologize for that development, either to friends I had before I dropped the one religion and adopted the other, or to friends I've made since the conversion?"

i think she simply meant that apologizing for keeping secret something relevant about yourself might be a good idea in a friendship. So.. not to apologize for the content of the secret...but rather... to apologize for having the secret in the first place... (i would agree in this particular case... where it seems fairly certain that many conversations were had about gay rights and public opinion... and the LW had many opportunities to share their own experience and reform)
95
Yes Philo. Doing martial arts, great way to use/ develop/ release bodily tension.
This behaviour was done in our Lounge Room. My son didn't aggressively push me away, I was standing in front of him, and he just put his hand to my shoulder and gentle moved me out of the way, so he could get to his brother and deal with the issue- whatever this issue was between them.
96
Vietnam War, sb, so the 53 is for your yr of birth?
Knew how to protest a War then, hey? Though for a bit you didn't, I see that.
Here the rage and anger came from conscription. That and " all the Way with LBJ", dear Oz, always grabbing the shirt tails of the UK or US.
97
ChairmanOfTheBored: I think friends have a right to keep embarrassing information about themselves private. Having evolved in your views and politics over almost two decades is probably not all that unusual. I wouldn't consider having once been more conservative, even vastly so on social issues to be a "secret" that I had to guard from my friends, even if the revelation of which might be disturbing to my current friends.

Again, I maintain that is isn't the fact that the lw once had different attitudes so much as it is that s/he either voted for or campaigned for antigay measures. That is a real action. That's what needs to be apologized for, in my book.
We don't know how close these Facebook friends are to the lw. There may be no need to bare his/her soul or past to these friends, under normal circumstances. It appears that since the friends didn't believe that DHACA ever had those beliefs, the change must have been pretty deep and be of pretty long-standing duration.
98
Philo @87 as for your question, “I know this is a personal question and I hope it doesn't distress... but do you think if you had not been told that you were unmanly a lot when you were a kid... do you think that you'd still feel like a part time woman?”

I think it actually goes the other way around: I was teased because of my feminine tendencies, or behaviors associated as such. Maybe some of my minor behaviors nowadays may stem from all those years of oppression, but that oppression had nothing to do with increasing or decreasing my femininity.
Same goes with teasing, it only made me dig deeper underground.

Wish I could express myself freely back in my formative years and go about wearing what I’d like, being accepted as who I am by family and friends and society at large, and a girlfriend who finds it fun and sexy


The support I expressed for Lava in your on-going gender differences argument is related to her observation of how children act and think, and how gender hard wiring and roles may affect us as adults. At least that’s my interpretation of her words.
It was based on raising my own children and being around many others as an adult rather than my own experience growing up, which for good or bad is not that common.

Feel free to ask any questions you’d like, I can take ‘em all like a m..
I mean, like a bigender
99
CMDwannabe, I'm enjoying witnessing your gradual unfolding of your authentic self. I love your avatar!
100
Incredibly over the gender-difference wars between LavaGirl and Philophile, but I will only say that I have never, since middle school, seen two men have a physical altercation. None of the men in my family, none of my male friends, colleagues, acquaintances have ever mentioned having one, and I can't imagine any man I know fighting with more than their words. I'm not talking about martial arts, classes or exercises or exhibitions, I'm talking about fighting physically as a way of settling a disagreement or burning off energy. All that applies in my personal experience equally to women. So perhaps there are some people who are inclined to more physical expressions of hostility than others, and gender or biological sex isn't the only or by no means the best way of determining who is more prone to that type of expression.
101
Made it past @100 Venn. Can talk our way out of a paper bag.
Yes nocute, the guys in your country just pick up guns. And some of them do in our country.
When we had the State of Origin football on Wednesday night, and the blues(NSW were so losing, boo hoo),
Those guys got real nasty with their tackles. And of course our
guys( maroons, Queensland), couldn't let dangerous tackles pass, so we got a few
Fights between them all. Just pushing type, though of course we don't see it all. One guy responds then more, before you know it all the men are either pushing someone or trying to pull someone off someone.
I have never, ever seen women sportspeople behave like that.
102
LavaGirl: While the U.S. has a horrible problem with guns and far too many people have them and use them, I only know two people personally who have a gun.
We're not all evangelical Christian, either.
My social reality is really different from someone else's social reality.

I assume that not every Australian is the same, as well.
103
Elite sportspeople, I'm talking of.
Those men in State of Origin are the best footballers picked from each state.
Yet still, they and we accept that if some behaviour on the field is nasty then to start a fight in response is accepted.
Then after several of these incidents, the Ref calls the two Captains over and says it was to stop, or there would be sin bin time- then he runs from the two of them, giving them no room to justify. We could all see what went down. And he says,
End of story.
And when I was calling the police on my sons, that's what, I think, pulled them up. The fear of a man with more authority coming into the story.
Alpha male behaviour.
104
And who does Most of the shooting, Nocute? What sex pulls the trigger most times?
105
Ms Lava - I (and doubtless Miss Marple as well) hope that your drawing room was not damaged by the altercation.
107
Noke Yoot @99- Thank you for your “like.” And if I may, I like yours too
 Reminds me of the days I was reading this book to my amazing off springs. A truly good children’s book is also appealing to the parents who read them over and over and can still appreciate them.
Pixar used to do similar stuff, at least back in the days when I was watching their movies, with jokes intended for adults that went unnoticed over the kids’ heads.

So what religion, if any, are you following nowadays? As for me, ritually mutilated by some bearded guy when I was few days old, grew up as and still am secular.
Mutilation paid off in Europe some twenty plus years later. Ironically this was not the case for both my parents’ families only few decades earlier.
Karl Marx wrote something like
 “History always repeats itself, first as a tragedy and later as a farce.”

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