There certainly ARE a lot of time wasters on dating sites.

Wow, COMBAT. All the best to you and your wife. I'm a veteran, and being shipped to a war zone has got to be about the highest stress inducer there is. Kudos to you and your wife for being together, and after marrying so young, remaining so supportive of each other.
I love HAPPY (Savage Love column) endings!

Oh my. Joe Newton, I may never be able to view soft serve the same way again.

I strongly suspect this was not a case of pearl-clutching over mistaken signals.

Dollars to donuts, what MONONA meant by "One man in particular seems to read her interest in friendship as sexual. My wife is quite upset," is that the guy in question is one of these assholes who believes that his self-proclaimed role as dom gives him carte blanche to steamroll anyone who identifies as a sub, whether they've agreed to play with him or not, and he is not taking a polite "No Thank You" for an answer. That's not being a dom; that is being a bully and a rapist-in-waiting.

The message that needs to be sent here is not "You can't have her, she's mine," so much as it is "Dude, NOBODY is your sub until they agree to it, now back the fuck up about a half mile until you learn how to be out and about in polite society without annoying people and embarrassing yourself."

COMBAT - so 30 is the new 40?
HAPPY - and here I thought dating sites were for ... dating.
OK folks, sorry for being grouchy. I'm afraid it's one of those days when I feel jealous of supposedly lower orders of critters wired to have sex for reproductive purposes only.

I commented when COMBAT's letter was the letter of day but it was a late comment so I'll repeat: mono can crush your libido for more than a year. I know because I've had it twice. My last bout was 14 months ago and I still haven't entirely bounced back. The first time I had it, my sex drive stayed low for nearly two years. Take care of yourself, rest when you can, concentrate on getting home safe, and rest assured that things will slowly return to normal.

And don't worry about turning 30. My husband and I are in our 40s, were having sex daily at minimum before I got sick, and are slowly working our way back to that average.

Also, for HAPPY - I'm happily married and monogamous and I've sometimes thought about putting up a profile solely for ego-boosting purposes. My husband would probably get a kick out of it, too, but we live in a tiny town where someone we knew would probably stumble upon it, making me the fodder for lots and lots of gossip.

Sounds like COMBAT has hypogonadism (low Testosterone) more than anything else. If he has started having spontaneous morning erections again, it may be resolving, but he should still get assessed for it.

MONONA, dude, for fuck's sake, go with your wife. Why on Earth would you not?

It might be mixed signals, the other dude might just be an asshole, but it really doesn't matter. It's about her sexuality, in which you're kind of intimately involved. Be involved.

That means showing up.

@4: Your interpretation is possible, but that's a lot of assumptions. Munches are like all organised meetings surrounding a particular hobby or interest: most of the people who attend them are there to do their hobby or interest with the other people who are there, or to meet people to do their hobby with. Whether that is board games, LARP, crafting, or BDSM. Many kinky people are married to vanilla people who allow them to indulge their desire for BDSM play with others. If MONONA's wife went on her own, even if she said she was married, that would not necessarily send the message "I am only here to talk, I am not available for play." She needs to do that explicitly, like Dan said.

The munches I go to, everyone has to wear a nametag with their fet name on it. The color of the border around the name tag is your orientation (dom, sub, kinkster), and then you get a colored dot - green, for looking, red for not looking. It makes everything much clearer and comfortable.

@12: My search for "fet name" returned exactly -0- relevant hits. This is in fact a thing?

@13 - Yes. There are people who prefer to play with a bit of anonymity, or perhaps choose to employ a persona of sorts. It's just a nickname, really.

@13 - I think he's referring to their name or handle on FetLife, a social networking site for kinksters.

I don't think people would put up with nametags at most munches. It's not speed dating; the idea is for people to go back enough that they start making friends and seeming reliable.

And although I'm sympathetic to MONONA's wife, I think the problems she encountered may have just as much to do with her own inexperience. MONONA doesn't have to go to the munch -- I went for almost a year before Mr. P. started coming too.

She needs to practice enforcing her own boundaries (including moving, turning away, or speaking to a munch leader if someone is bugging you) and she shouldn't give out her contact info, beyond a Fetlife username. (On Fetlife she can block anyone annoying.) Learning to enforce her boundaries at a munch is good practice for enforcing them at a play party or a private meeting. And if she is "upset" at the idea of having to enforce her boundaries, then she might need to work with a kink-friendly therapist until she can be more comfortable with the idea that her boundaries are her responsibility.

That said, if the munch leaders were no help when someone was bothering her, then she may need to find alternative ways to meet people.

Regarding Dan's advice to MONONA: Yes. Go with her to the munches.

Normally, I'd say 'No'. Most of the women I know are more than willing and able to fend for themselves at social gatherings. In fact some would take offense at the idea of needing a man there to step in. Her word should be the only authority needed to set boundaries for any interaction.

However, in my limited experience in socializing with submissive women* I have noticed that some (not all) can be submissive in their everyday social lives as well as in bed (or on a rack, or wherever). If this is the case with Mrs. MONONA, Mr Pushy Guy might be misreading her signals and she might not be asserive enough to stand up for herself.

*I've met a few for whom victimhood is the underlying motivator for becoming a submissive. They freak me out, because I'm used to women who know how to asset their bounaries. I hope that other members of the Fetlife community will steer such people away from the lifestyle for their own good.

COMBAT, good Dan put you back up , cause I wanted to agree with a poster from the other thread.
Chinese medicine, accupunture etc, great great stuff. Clears the body's channels. CatB, being an accupunturist could explain it all better, I just know how it and Chinese herbs have helped me over many years. In conjunction with western medicine, when it's needed.

@10. Eh, i'm interested in being domish. I'm not interested in anyone I'm not having sex with knowing I am a dom. My partner wanted to go to a "ropes" class, which was bound to be popular. People I work with could be there. People I know might be there. I'm not interested, and I am sure there are plenty of partners, like me, who want to keep their kinks exclusively in the bedroom.

Can/should someone who's had mono donate blood? I'm asking for myself, not LW1.

@20 I've tried to donate and was turned down because I've had mono but I don't know if that's an overall rule or just a rule at the blood drives I've been to.

Holmes @ 17
In regards to “*I've met a few for whom victimhood is the underlying motivator for becoming a submissive. They freak me out, because I'm used to women who know how to asset their bounaries. I hope that other members of the Fetlife community will steer such people away from the lifestyle for their own good.”

For good or bad, and based on my own experience as well as few others, some kinks may indeed stem from a trauma of some sort. Traumas may vary by degrees of seriousness, but it is in the eye of the beholden, what one grew up with and knew at the time. And it may, or may not, affect what is perceived as the intensity of their kink.
And I'm afraid some submissive men may have also been victimized.

The challenge is learning to cope with all those tendencies. Some may be more acceptable than others nowadays, and I hear the numbers keep growing. But if they’re too shameful, risky, etc. and will only result in further guilt and bad feelings if indeed realized, then maybe they should be kept as fantasies at most for at least some time. If possible also do some research like reading, getting different perspectives, maybe also meeting people. This may lead to embracing some or all aspect of that behavior later on. Or not.

As my opinion “freak me out" is also in the eye of the beholden.

Suggestion for MONONA:

Get a prop that symbolizes ownership [collar, single ankle shackle,
necklace that says "property of ," symbolic bracelet, etc.].
When talking to people, always put in a comment that indicates that
she is sub to a specific master. That should make it clear to most
people that being propositioned is not welcome - then for the assholes
that do anyway, a firm "my master does not allow it." can be used.

This way, the natural sub doesn't have to be aggressive to fend off
advances, but any necessary aggressiveness is on behalf of their dom.

While the props might not be part of MONONA's lifestyle, I don't feel that
they are a lie - just a hint to avoid misunderstandings [think of it as the
coded nametag indicating "unavailable"].

----
Both my spouse and myself have used props and comments/stories
inserted into conversation to signal unavailability at times. We don't
feel it is dishonest as long as they are in line with our personalities even
though they are not things we would do in daily life.

I'm plain jane vanilla, myself, but: @4 avast2006: Whoa! Holy shit----how did I miss that?! Spot on regarding MONONA, and @23 bbbbbb: Excellent suggestions for MONONA in fending off assholes at future munches.

@11: So stipulated, I am conjecturing here. It's just that I have trouble imagining anything that on the one hand qualifies as a polite, respectful inquiry while on the other leaves LW's wife "quite upset."

I am guessing that she came home wondering about mixed signals" because that's exactly the wording the guy accused her of -- which would be in itself a pretty transparent attempt to manipulate a newbie. See if you can bully the beginner into letting her be dommed by you, continue to pursue in a perseverative fashion, don't take no for an answer, then when she stands up for herself, accuse her of mixed signals.

Call me a cynic, but there's one in every crowd. I see that same predatory behavior in all of the other social circles I run in, and none of them are even organized around sexuality.

@4 & @25: Amen!

Goodness knows I've encountered very pushy men who insist that anything short of a sharp kick in the nads is "mixed signals" or "leading them on." "I've got to go," "I have a boyfriend," "Leave me alone," "I'm not interested," "I'm a lesbian"? That's all just "mixed signals" and "leading them on." And if you do go so far as to get aggressive in order to get him to back off, you're a "bitch." These types essentially want to force you into a false dichotomy of capitulating to their pushy advances or being a "bitch." There is no middle ground, no acceptable way to politely turn them down. They simply won't acknowledge polite rejection as rejection at all.

Naturally, doms are not immune from this form of assholery any more than other hetero men. If a woman is "quite upset," especially if it's one guy in particular who's "misreading her signals," I suspect this is what's going on. And yes, being a submissive type can make it much tougher. Being aggressive enough to get them to bug off just doesn't come naturally to us, and we're especially vulnerable to insults that we're being shrewish because we revel in being the exact opposite.

[Naturally, doms are not immune from this form of assholery any more than other hetero men.]

{Aside to Ms Erica - I refrain deliberately from going all July.}

Was this a casual statement or a purposeful implication that bisexual men make more considerate OS dominants? I'm not being snarky; it's a serious question, coming largely out of suspicion that here's another area whether the OS/SS divide is nearly at its widest. Obviously I can't speak on straight dominants or on how bi dominants treat women; my experience of how they treat men would incline me to be skeptical of such an assertion, although it might be a question of the B label being too broad.

Ven @ 28
My guess is Mx P was referring to the kind of men that were mistreating the newbie female and assumes, probably rightfully so, that they are het. Some may be bi but this is irrelevant.
I think she points to the the different degrees of assholism in that segment of population in general only use this is the group discussed here.
For good or bad assholes are everywhere, and in every demography one can think of.

The fetlife community has a wide range of folks who are active. Some attend munches as couples others on their own, but I believe they are there for stimulation. The various ideas fellow hobbyists produce may lead to a F.L.-er to experiment, and that is (IMHO) what they are all doing: expanding their intimate lives with BDSM.
The thing I Do NOt understand is the Domme I met who was surprised that, gasp, SEX was included in some non-munch play parties. My initial understanding was that was the whole kink for the members; that various BDSM activities aroused the membership.
Now, being past 60 I am a bit surprised that someone whose age is close to 30 needs to add kink for variety, but I am not ready to exclude younger folks from joining. I just assumed the F.L.-ers were mostly older.

The column was great. I would add for COMBAT- Cheating on your partner doesn't mean you're really horny. They probably cheat at home if the opportunity arises too. COMBAT will come home to his happy relationship but this may be the peak of his colleagues' sex life. Also he could ask for more vids and pics from home if that's what turns his crank.

And for MONONA- the only thing separating abuse and sex is consent, and it's easiest to determine consent when both people are enthusiastically communicating what they want. For sex that involves activities that most people would consider abusive, like whipping, ignoring "no stop" (to rely on other safewords), demeaning your partner etc.. consent seems top priority compared to vanilla. So I think you should have a long talk about how your wife handles consent. How does she show you and possibly others that she is sexually interested? How does she show that she returns sexual interest, or has none, when others show their interest? If her signals seem ambiguous, is she open to trying more clear ways to communicate? You could role play the dom and give her feedback about what she's communicating. (She might like a relationship where a dom doesn't care for her consent at all, just leads coincidentally awesome feeling sex with no need to talk about what she wants at all. And that is pure fantasy, you could talk about how that's unrealistic and show her this column where people like all different things, no two people feel the same, she'll be disappointed if she expects a magically perfect match. I think you can just find someone with fairly similar tastes, who you can negotiate/grow well with.) And if the guy is ignoring clear signals, she should talk to the leaders and try to avoid him before giving up on the group. If the munches aren't fun any more, she could advertise online for exactly the type of friends that she is looking for, and it would be easier for you to help her with.

I'm also glad that HAPPY is thinking outside the box about what she wants, and not what everyone else is doing.

Auntie Griz - Thank you for your service.

CMD - "The challenge is learning to cope with all those tendencies."
Is there a better summary of the irrationality of being human? I don't believe that there is anyone who likes to do the best thing for their health and longevity all the time. I guess we can just try to build habits that seem to work well. And I think you mean beholder, beholden is to owe a debt (of gratitude etc).

Mr. ven @28, I think it is a bit of a broad generalization, but het guys have less experience being hit on, than gay/bi guys and women of all orientations. And for het guys--unless it is a gay/bi guy hitting on them--the power dynamic is usually to their advantage whether or not the advances are welcomed.

I think the experience of trying to deflect or disentangle oneself from an awkward or aggressive pursuer, especially when the power imbalance is not in one's favor, can make one more sensitive when doing the pursuing.

@31 Philophile: You and the United States of America are most welcome. I humbly consider myself lucky. 22 years later, after serving a four-year enlistment, on some days I'm left wondering how I did it. The military is a completely different world.

Mr O - By all means, generalize away. You have extra standing on this issue for a variety of reasons.

**********

Ms Phile - Is it even possible? Didn't someone once work out that, if one ate everything one MUST eat EVERY DAY, in one day one would eat enough for a week, while, in the other direction, if one avoided everything one MUSTN'T eat, it would take about a week's rations to get through a day? My recollection is fuzzy.

@28: Nope, just an underinclusive statement based on what experiences I have. The bi males I've encountered tend to be the kind to put a woman on a pedestal and be overly chivalrous, but I can't say for certain if that's representative.

It's quite possible that being on the receiving end of advances could make one more sensitive to the party being pursued as Ophian @32 suggested, but I wouldn't bank on it. I've encountered some really aggressive bi women! Women are so accustomed to their advances being welcome (men often greet strong come-ons from women with unbridled enthusiasm) that a few seem to have trouble registering that their advances could ever be unwelcome. Also, society checks aggressive men--people will shame and intervene if they see a man getting too pushy with a woman. But a woman isn't perceived as "threatening," so there's less social pressure for a sexually aggressive woman to back off.

Heck, even I was guilty of being overly aggressive when I was younger. Young men are drilled on consent and respect; young women are drilled on protecting themselves. I didn't really need the drills on self-protection, but I could have used some of those talks about keeping my filthy hands to myself and watching the lewd language. I look back and cringe on my teenage years--I'm sure I made many of my female peers uncomfortable with my behavior.

@35 society checks aggressive men
I completely disagree. I was reading an article recently that I thought said this well:
"During those moments when we are showing our strongest selves, women often are hit with ugly, critical comments. We are called "aggressive," "bossy," and "bitchy." Senior women I work with report they are at times labelled "ball buster" and "ice queen." And it’s not only men who apply these terms. New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd compared Hilary Clinton to the Snow Queen in Disney’s Frozen because, Dowd claimed, both lack the warmth people expect (of a woman!)."
http://www.fastcompany.com/3041942/stron…

If the young women you were aggressive with didn't check you, it's unfortunately probably because they were socialized to be nice rather than enforce their boundaries. Which is what I think Ophian is referring to with power dynamics, unless he means size. Men are socialized to pursue their happiness more than their consideration of others from the stereotypes I've observed. It's interesting to count how many times a woman interrupts a man, overruling his voice with her priorities, and vice versa. Of course, the man is not always the one who does most of the interrupting, but the difference is interesting. And a quick google shows a recent article about the phenomenon in Time as well, and the new words manterruption and bropriating!
http://time.com/3666135/sheryl-sandberg-…

Also being aggressive to women without outright abuse can help to fit in with others who expect this. It seems very self defeating for a woman to buy into misogynist culture but it's easier for some to be praised as the good kind of second class citizen than fight for more equal treatment.

Venn - Is it even possible?
Well, kids don't seem to like everything good for them, so I think it's rarely naturally occurring. Some people leave workplace politics and romance behind, and join a monastery to try. I think it's a spectrum, no one is completely self- destructive or completely centered on their own self improvement. Thinking of the extremes reminds me of psychopaths. I think that living in a society demands a little of each.

Ms Gui - Interesting. This seems more or less in line with those video clips that seemed to pop up so often several months ago in which an FM pair of actrons would enact parallel altercations in public. Out of time now, but expect to return to this later.

I came down with a bad case of mono.

Too bad you didn't come down with a case of bono. You have to wear tinted glasses all the time, but you also get a strong desire to do humanitarian work so, overall, it's pretty good condition.

Philo @36 , @37; nicely said. Seems to be though, in your words, unless my eyes deceive me.. Descriptions of the differences between men and women.
Some men. Some women. Always room for individual differences.
I'm getting my courage up to go visit a monthly bondage get together in Brisbane. Don't think they are called munches here..

Ms Phile - #36 and #38 crossed. I congratulate you on your strong positioning. If it weren't for my guess that Ms Cute is completely in agreement with your point, I'd hope she would make the fairly clear comparison to Louisa Musgrove so that the point couldn't be dismissed out of hand (I agree with the linked article on the whole but have one minor and either one or two moderate quibbles).

Ms Gui - As I said, I've seen the video clips that suggest a lower standard for intervention in cases of M>F aggression as opposed to F>M aggression, though one naturally has to be skeptical. Were you only aggressive towards other women? It's the comparisons that seem to contain much of the interest.

I shall say that my experience with bi women (well, one such) compares quite favourably to my experience with bi men. I was the recipient of one pass so delicately extended that it might have been a move in a game of Diplomacy. It was declined with equal tact and never mentioned again, even though her mother was one of my great friends.

Amusingly, I got to tell her mother twice, "I could have told you *that*!" The first time was about a year after the pass, when her mother was surprised by the passer's announcement that she had a girlfriend; the second was about two years later, when the passer announced she was dating a man about as old as her father.

Oh, I forgot the ending. We had civil unions for a couple of years before we had marriage. The passer had a CU ceremony during a period of about three years during which I didn't happen to see any of the family. When I saw them next, because I rather wondered what happened to CUs after marriage passed, I asked if the couple had had a second (marriage) ceremony, and neither her mother nor her brother could remember either way.

Philo @ 31- beholder indeed, thanks.

Lava @ 40- I went to some events here, on my own and in my female persona. Different actions went on, people were nice, talked to me, and no one bothered anyone. I even ran into a former coworker and his girlfriend who identified me right away. Guess I'm not that passable after all... not that I care...
We had a friendly chat regarding what made us come to the event.

Those meetings- whatever one may call them- helped me figure out what is it that I really want, how to present myself, approach/choose possible partners and some times even do it. Not that I don’t have my share of disappointments or heartbreaks anymore.
Hope you’ll find happiness.

Ah thanks CMD, I am happy. Maybe it's a function of age, I know it's a function of my age, I am just not looking for any thing full on. Happy to keep my adventures very low key.
Since being here, I've taken a bit of a fancy to bondage. Nothing too heavy,
Just enough where some part of me learns to surrender.

@18 Virtually everything about Chinese "medicine" is religious nonsense to the same degree as Mormonism, Scientology or Catholicism. Please STFU.

COMBAT, 30 seems WAY too early for age to be a factor. I'm about 10 weeks younger than Dan (50) and in my mid-40s, I thought something like that might be kicking in. Turned out I was just taking too much Sudafed, which is a bona fide boner killer. I would hope you have at least a couple of decades before the calendar explains your problem.

Best of luck with your deployment. Keep sexting your awesome wife and hang in there!

@47 Lava, you keep believing in any medicine that helps you! I don't subscribe to anything other than science, but I know lots of people who seem to get real help from the stuff that escapes my ken. SK is being a jerk.
@48 I take lots of zyrtec (anti-histamine like Sudafed) during our hot weather season (to prevent hives) and I noticed long ago that it destroys my libido. If COMBAT is deployed in a hot environment he may well suffer from the side-effects.

Happy:
What your boyfriend is doing is not just wasting other peoples time, it is lying and playing with other peoples emotions. Online dating is hard enough without having to contend with selfish
unavailable people just looking for ego strokes.The negative experiences Posers leave in their wake make it harder for people on the dating sites who are actually looking for a relationship to trust in anyone, and have faith in finding a good mate.
If he is dishonest to and inconsiderate of others, it is indicative of how he might be with you as well. It is Bad Karma...what happens if you two go in for a home loan and sit across from a
woman he just toyed with online? Or you two go
out to dinner and the waitress recognizes him
from the site?
If he needs ego strokes/to feel better about
himself I suggest the following honest & less hurtful means: work out, buy some flattering new clothes, get a nice haircut, Do Nice Things for your girlfriend and other people, volunteer, work on his career, etc.
If he felt good about himself he probably wouldn't Need random women to compliment him.

Lava @ 45- Yes, slow is god, we late bloomers like to proceed with caution anyway.
Most of what I saw over there were not my thing- I was never good with ropes and knots even as a boy scout- but it certainly helped me nevertheless.
Mental stuff with not-too-harsh actions work best for me.

@47. You kidding me, right?
A medical science that the Chinese have developed over thousands of years.
Thanks sb53, it is a science. And a very very clever one.

@47, ScrawnyKayaker, could you please be a little more offensive and rude? It's a know fact that anyone who doesn't 100% agree with YOU really has no business posting to this forum and should, as you so eloquently stated, "STFU".... Sheesh! The nerve of some people!

@50, singlefemale, I also think Dan missed the boat on this one. You made an excellent explanation of why. It seems that even the letter writer has some lingering doubt, as expressed in her sign off (His Answer Perfectly Plausible, Yes?), and the statement "Though I may look back on this and cringe". Listen to that inner voice HAPPY; it is usually right.

@47 scrawny kayaker: I'm with sb53 (@49) and gonzo (@53): Don't bash LavaGirl on her medicinal choices. We don't all run on the same cures or the same fuel. What works for her or for me might not for you--so what? Blindly screaming "STFU!" to anybody is just plain rude and immature.

@52: You GO, LavaGirl!

*sigh* Enough, science-hating climate change deniers, ENOUGH.

Ms Grizelda - Omit "Lava" and that's what Anne Robinson said to RuPaul.

I just got up, 8:00 am here, yet another hazy Sunday morning... Hunter @59- what are you on?

@Hunter, that seemed like a quintessentially Hunter comment, but apropos what?

@57 vennominon: Okay. That works for me, too.
@59: Not necessarily, Hunter. Life isn't exactly one-size-fits-all.

Hunter,
Ahh, I missed that one.

Hunter- you're getting very poetic and should give yourself an honorary mention in the weekly report.

Mr. Ven - visiting my mom in the midwest, and she whips out a ... Jane Austen Bandaid (Bandage, to be precise)! Yes, they exist! It made me think of you. Have fun with it.

@40 Lava- I think I started this with post 200, June 29th:
Yes, cis men and cis women and intersex people are different chromosomally, this is inescapable. This fact is not really that important except for sex and reproduction, as individual differences generally influence behavior/skill/character much more. Men and women are also treated differently in society, because of stereotypes (gender roles).
I don't think my position has changed... still don't believe in mysterious differences definitely.

'Women are sexy and men are dirty and gross' may be the worst gender stereotype for het sex, but I think the worst for society is 'women should be seen and not heard'. From the fast company article: I once worked with a woman who went to her boss to share her views with him. She didn’t agree with him about an approach he was taking to a customer situation, and she told him why. In response, he said, "You are one ballsy bitch." After catching her breath, she replied, "At least you heard me." It takes courage to combat stereotypes. But we need to exercise that courage if we are to change the way others view us—and, indeed, the way we view ourselves.

Re Chinese medicine: I've found the dearth of acupuncture research comparable to the dearth of female orgasm research. Before research you must acquire funding.

@59 Hun - Depends on which sense of the word you mean. No one likes to get fucked over in the bad sense (or for their partner to suck in the bad sense). Women like partners who understand their mind and body and are skilled at arousing them. So do men: A dead fish is not usually preferable. And a more active lover who is unskilled with genitals can hurt. Generally, people like great feeling sex. Not always, though: asexuals.

Woo I scored a 69!

@42 Venn - Thank you. I'd be interested in your feedback although late in the week... I thought you might appreciate the Time article because of the '20 famous women's views on feminism' slideshow. It mirrors much of what I've seen in this forum. In case you dislike flipping through slideshows as much as I do, these seem to cover most viewpoints:

The Twilight actress reacted to women rejecting feminism during a Daily Beast interview in October: "That’s such a strange thing to say, isn’t it? Like, what do you mean? Do you not believe in equality for men and women? I think it’s a response to overly-aggressive types."

"I wouldn’t say [I'm a] feminist, that’s too strong. I think when people hear feminist it’s just like, ‘Get out of my way I don’t need anyone,’” Kelly Clarkson told TIME last year. “I love that I’m being taken care of, and I have a man that’s an actual leader. I’m not a feminist in that sense … but I’ve worked really hard since I was 19."

"A feminist? Um, yeah, actually,” Katy Perry told an Australian radio host in March. “I used to not really understand what that word meant, and now that I do, it just means that I love myself as a female and I also love men.”

Amy Poehler says she's confused by how many women deny that they're feminists, “but then they go on to explain what they support and live by — it’s feminism exactly,” she told Elle magazine in January. "That’s like someone being like, ‘I don’t really believe in cars, but I drive one every day and I love that it gets me places and makes life so much easier and faster and I don’t know what I would do without it.’”

"No, because I love men," was Shailene Woodley's response when TIME asked her whether she considered herself a feminist in May. "I think the idea of ‘raise women to power, take the men away from the power’ is never going to work out because you need balance…My biggest thing is really sisterhood more than feminism.”

"I wish when I was 12-years-old I had been able to watch a video of my favorite actress explaining in such an intellectual, beautiful, poignant way the definition of feminism." Taylor Swift said in reaction to Emma Watson's speech at the UN in September. "Because I would have understood it. And then earlier on in my life I would have proudly claimed I was a feminist because I would have understood what the word means."

Ms Phile - Pity a referendum wouldn't be practical. It does get rather dizzying when almost identical positions are staked out by diametrically opposed rivals.

I expected to have to go out at a minute's notice all day, and thus never got around to a long reply, sorry - maybe later, though I can't promise.

@72 Venn - It's much simpler to me. Probably because I used to sound like Shailene Woodley before I looked up the definition of feminism and realized that feminist issues: pro choice, pro equal representation, pro birth control access, anti-discrimination, anti-rape culture, pro affirmative consent education, addressing the pregnancy penalty in career advancement, etc, reflect my own position.

Feminists are people who believe in feminism, changes which promote gender equality. There are people who don't identify as feminists, A) who irrationally believe the word means women superiority or man hating (a persistent irrationality in America today and 20 years ago), B) don't mind that some existing American laws favor the life of an unborn child over the woman carrying it, or C) want government officials & CEOs to remain mostly men and generally see social change as dangerous. A and C have a lot of women, but B is mostly men. I think Hunter is an A, but possibly a C. I hope he's not a B. You seem like an A as well, speaking of gender equality but refusing the label feminist. I've heard Dan talk about his feminist sensibilities in the last few months, I'd assume that he's a feminist.

I don't believe that Cockyballsup speaks on behalf of all men, just as extremists don't speak on behalf of all feminists. Personal ads can be awesome and crazy just like people; CL casual encounters are as good as the Onion, plus there's local penis pics usually. I'm glad that my boyfriend doesn't assume that I'm cheating on him if he sees me reading them.

Yes Mr Up@71( I assume you are male), your comment has been noted, and it sounds very plausible.
Philo, what, no words on feminism from Paris or Miley?

Ms Phile - I've said more than once that I see it as a Humpty Dumpty term - meaning largely whatever the speaker pays it to mean. Lately, I've been seeing what seems this vast tug-of-war between various groups all claiming to be THE group seeking equality, and my response is turning into a temptation to universalize Ms Cute, who will, I trust, recall saying that she wants equality (or perhaps the exact phrase was "to be treated equally"; I don't exactly recall) except when she doesn't. And I don't fault her for that.

To instance Ms Cute again, she is not by any means a Mary Sue. One would never accuse her of such a dubious disntinction; indeed, I can't think of anyone currently present among the assembled company who would fit that description. Yet her definition of mainstream feminism from a week or two back, which seemed to mesh with yours, was perhaps the Mary Sue to end all Mary Sues, the pinnacle of Mary Suedom. If I am going to align with any Mary Sue philosophy, which is highly unlikely, it won't be one which centres people who have been so frequently problematic for me, even if I accept their being No True Scotswomaned into irrelevance in the general discourse.

If it weren't so late, one might speculate on how much any particular ideology ought to strive in the direction of Mary Suedom or how close it ought to come to reaching such a state.

@63: Okay, thanks Hunter. I'll check back on that.

@79: O-o-o-o-kay. I guess it would have also helped me to know what question of Philophile's you were talking about (stop smirking, already!).

Everyone have a great week---enjoy the sunshine; hope the wildfires don't get out of control.
Griz is going to dine out, drink plenty of red, red wine, and this year's birthday cake is luscious GF tiramisu with organic berries from the local Co-op.

Venn, maybe don't worry your pretty little head about Feminism. It is a woman's movement, and it is up to us what it means. It is pretty obvious there is no party line, re what it means.
Wanting equality, especially in pay, is something that will go on until that equality is reached.
The Patriarchy is insidious and on going. Don't see any time in the future where Feminism won't be applicable.
Every facet of public life and the Arts, dominated by men. Most decisions that effect all of our lives, made by men.
Long long way to go.

Hun,

once again we get this "Feminism means being for equality"
You don't have to trust me, you can look it up in the dictionary. It actually means this.

give us some details on "addressing the pregnancy penalty"
Nag nag demand but ok. It benefits society if getting pregnant or family leave does not hurt career advancement opportunities. Happy families benefit society. The specific changes that I think are necessary; increased social and legal sanctions of reasonable extent, fully paid family leave for men and women with infants, some birth & nursing (maternity) leave for women, and personally I think that emphasizing merit/achievement based promotion rather than seniority based is important because of the necessary missed work days and face time that currently accompany reproduction.

how to achieve "equal representation"? Quotas?
Everyone has a different opinion. I have many thoughts, most probably boring outreach stuff you've already heard of. I'd be happy with representation by population, +/-10%. Until I see women break the 50% mark in congress & a woman president, I'll think it's an awful fact of society that more men than women decide the rules.

"Affirmative consent education"? Sounds like political re-education.
That's quite aggressive, it's simply education. What it means is that reluctant consent is kinda rapey when it comes to sex. Respecting 'no means no' only means you're not a rapist. Respecting 'yes means yes', waiting for a clear yes, means you're worth a second fuck. Some women dislike saying 'yes' or expressing sexual desire, but if you're kinky, I mean operating outside of reasonably expected standards, you've gotta learn to talk about it or you'll never connect with others. I think it's reasonable to expect a person to feel sexual desire and communicate it before engaging in sex, although some people online loudly disagree.

"Anti-rape culture"? I thought our culture was already anti-rape.
I think I just answered this...

Venn - I've never once heard a feminist say that a certain group was THE equality group. I'm having trouble imagining hearing it often. By definition, all groups of feminists would like to pursue gender equality. NOW.org does this admirably. Personal online blogs may be hateful or incomprehensible because there are hateful and incomprehensible people with internet access.
If I am going to align with any Mary Sue philosophy, which is highly unlikely, it won't be one which centres people who have been so frequently problematic for me
Activists? Women? Who has been so frequently problematic for you? What is a Mary Sue philosophy?

If you continue to imply that feminism is anything other than changes for gender equality, you'll continue to butt heads with feminists with your misunderstanding. Members of group A, who don't understand (or refuse to believe?) that feminism means seeking gender equality, can easily be confused with group B, who doesn't believe gender equality is important or group C, who dislikes social change on principle (like gay marriage).

Lava - Hope your bondage event was fun. Did you get tied up or learn some knots? I copied those quotes from the linked article's slideshow, I don't know if they were mentioned but you can check it out. Also, feminism started as a women's movement, but I think that the closer we move to equal regard under the law, the more feminism should focus on men's inequality issues too. I think it would help this backlash. I prefer a more welcoming idea of feminism.

Ms Phile - I should have said "representatives of various philosophies" rather than "various groups" - that's what I get for trying to race through a post after I should be in bed. But it's interesting that you appear to have taken on the idea that ALL equality seekers MUST be feminists. If we allow that individual ideas of "equality" vary wildly, I can loosely accept the principle of all feminists seeking (their own ideas of) equality, but we're getting back to P>Q not meaning Q>P. What I meant is that I have seen feminists, non-feminists and anti-feminists all trying to stake the same claim, "We're for equality and they are not." In such disputes, I readily stipulate that feminists are generally a good deal closer to truth. (At least some of my engagement is best interpreted as prepping a witness for cross-examination; I don't bother half so much with arguments to which my response is LMB.) And for me the potential trap lies in how getting nearer Truth appears to be a general good, but it's thinking that one has actually arrived that causes the problem. If X (and only X) owns Truth, then it can easily become a virtue for X to shut down Y. I think I want something in between Mr Savage's inviting Mr Brown to a straightified dinner in his home and pulling the fire alarm to disrupt the opportunity to speak of someone with opposing views.

While Mary Sue generally refers to a character far too idealized to be realistic or interesting (and yes, there is legitimate criticism of the concept, and also there is a male version), I didn't think it was too great a stretch to extend it to a philosophy often (or at least occasionally) presented as if *the* appropriate response must be the twanging of harps. (Shades of Sir Quentin Oliver from Loitering With Intent.) Especially as feminism expands into other spheres (perhaps through an excess of intersectionality, perhaps inevitably), I can see it fitting into a particular Mary Sue characteristic for some adherents or onlookers:

[Other than that, the canon characters are quickly reduced to awestruck cheerleaders, watching from the sidelines as Mary Sue outstrips them in their areas of expertise and solves problems that have stymied them for the entire series.]

Or, for an alternative, there's Rumpole's initial impression of Mizz Lizz Probert, the earnestness of whose appearance suggests that she's continually in the process of deciding which to do first, end world hunger or stop nuclear war.

I'll ask you a hypothetical I've been mulling over for some time. You will recall how, in S&S, John Dashwood's first thought as to how to assist his father's widow and daughters is to give his stepsisters a thousand pounds each. As his wife whittles his idea of assistance down to a virtual nothing, one of his alternative ideas along the way is to give his stepmother an annuity of a hundred pounds a year. Now, accepting Elinor's idea that an income of one thousand a year constitutes sufficient "wealth" for the provision of happiness (while Marianne considered eighteen hundred or two thousand a year to be a "competence"), I've worked out that either giving his stepsisters ten thousand pounds each or his stepmother fifteen hundred a year (as Miss Austen appeared to regard 5% as the general rate of return) would constitute (given the patriarchal framework of primogeniture) about as fair a solution as possible in the circumstances, and I've been debating with myself whether a "settlement" or an "annuity" approach to redressing wrongs is superiour in other contexts as well. I think the vast majority of the assembled company would agree that there are many wrongs in the circumstances of women that need redress. Settlement or annuity; which approach appeals more?

Hunter @87 The elevator ride, indeed. Sometimes I say "Weeee!" out loud while on it.

I'm curious how many people report the spam. I almost always do, but I'm not sure how much work the webmaster puts into banning an ip #, rather than just an individual account.

Philo, what I'd like to see, is a big noise from Feminists, about the trratment of women in the Middle East, Aftica etc.. Places where women's rights, queer rights are just stomped on. Did you see Obama talking in Nigera? Talking about
Not repressing homosexuals or women. Didn't see him mention Trans* people, maybe a bridge too far at this point.

Treatment. Africa. What has happened to
My spell check? Must my whole life go feral?

I meant what you knew Lava, and I actually like the "elevator ride" .Doesn't take much to entertain me.
Happy B-day Auntie G!
Saw Dan on CBS Sunday Morning. He and his spouse were as clever as ever. I was watching with wifey who did a double-take. I talk about Dans letters almost every Friday when we have date night, and she usually gets al pissy. Maybe not so much now that she saw what a quality guy he is? we will see. Her reaction to Dan's "monogamish" discussion point was great!

@77, Hunter, re: HAPPY?, her sign off was her question and, although unstated, she has oh so many others. Not knocking your weekly summary; I always enjoy it and hope it continues.

Ok sb53. Birthday time, Grizelda. Wish I could sit with you and share the wine.

Cockyballsup - You have a point. I still think it could be a slightly embarrassing self indulgent ultimately harmless habit, but I could see why this would set one's Spidey-sense tingling too. I guess she'll figure out if he was shady or just horny eventually. If she really likes him, maybe he's worth the risk.

Yes, Griz, happy birthday, sending thoughts of hot men jumping out of cakes your way... and I'm not sure which question Hun was referring to, only that he likes to challenge my ideas of the general differences between men and women. I try to listen to what he thinks is important and respond as best as I can, even if we don't share much common language. He's grown on me too.

Venn - I think the vast majority of the assembled company would agree that there are many wrongs in the circumstances of women that need redress. Settlement or annuity; which approach appeals more?
I think the forgiveness concept only works with individual entities who are responsible for harming another. I don't blame all men for my society's current form re gender inequality, but I expect them to recognize and appreciate the benefits of their gender in society, and extend consideration for pain women suffer on behalf of their gender. I try not to be a hypocrite about that and extend consideration to men's pain, and also try to extend it to non gender social inequalities like race and orientation. As far as forgiving individuals or corporations who have hurt me, I expect them to help clean up any harm they are responsible for (settlement) and remember that they've made a mistake that hurt me, show more appropriate care for my space or feelings or possessions or body in the future (annuity?). I think that annuity is just a part of a settlement sometimes, it really depends on what the hurt party wants in compensation, and if they can clarify how it will clean up the mess sufficiently to reach an agreement, or argue by precedent. Or no understanding is reached and the relationship breaks or possibly reduced to acquaintance or legal action. I believe it is the responsibility of the wronged party to specify compensation when asked to repair the relationship (else end it), as they are most familiar with the damages, but redress should be reasonable and not eye for an eye in a good relationship. The Jane Austen refs are, as always, lost on me.

Re feminism=seeking gender equality. Don't blame me, blame the dictionary or the French people who made the word. I don't see why this is so hard to swallow. I don't think it helps to rail on about how the word has confusing perjorative connotations in this society. It's a sad fact. Much like the word gay, really. How long would you speak to someone who insisted that gay could not possibly just mean sexually desiring your own gender, because it's used so often as a perjorative, and there's all this mysterious talk of tops and bottoms and twinks and puppy packs, there must be some deep gay Truth, one way to do it right, I've heard that gay means that you've been sexually abused, or it means you like butt sex as a guy or scissoring as a girl. It can't be simply a harmless human desire that I lack? But it is. A desire to improve gender inequality is assumed among (reasonable) feminists, no matter which feminist issue you focus on. And some familiarity with the issue you want to talk about. Yada yada not all feminists are reasonable, there are always some who think their way and their feelings are THE Truth.

I'm not trying to make you change your identity. I am saying that identifying as a "not-feminist who believes that changes toward gender equality are important" is going to confuse people who believe the dictionary. If that is your identity, it seems contradictory, but there's no need to divulge your personal beliefs to me. I'm not asking you to join NOW or reach out to little girls about how a career in law may suit them. Please don't do the latter if you're not in law. Especially in a Free Candy van.

Lava - You probably know more about Obama than I do you crazy Aussie. I think the Middle Eastern gender violence problems are cultural. I'm not sure how one can help them without supporting a culture that curtails women's freedoms far more than my own. Offer refugee status to those who can leave, I guess. Any ideas on your end?

Chiming in re Chinese medicine, a couple points -
You can’t talk about it like it’s a single, discrete thing, like ‘500ml of penicillin.’ There are multiple, multiple schools, just in China, (many more in Korea, Japan, Vietnam, France, Germany...) and everyone in those schools does it differently. Herbal formulae - many or few ingredients, which ones (my first school’s headmaster was from Canton, very different stuff used than my teachers in Seattle), and how large are the daily doses.
Acupuncture - Depth of needling, time of retention, which points, frequency of treatment.
Talking about ‘Chinese Medicine’ is like talking about ‘massage’ or ‘personal training;’ “Oh yeah, I tried that, and it sucked/was great.” All depends on who you see. I went to school in Seattle with people I’d send my Mom to, and some people graduated that I wouldn’t have dump out my sharps box.

Re research, the most common Western-hemisphere research appears deliberately structured to show failure - the two most recents that come to mind are the Australian study, and another on knee pain I’ll reference if anyone’s interested. Designed to fail = inadequate frequency of treatment, treating all patients the same, incompetent diagnosis, and the acupuncture performed by unskilled practitioners.
The Aussie study, in particular, would be like (going again to exercise, my other bailiwick) me setting up a program to study whether...deadlifts were effective for strengthening the posterior chain, but everyone, from 21-year-old studs to grannies, gets the same weight, and they do them every two weeks, and they’re taught by aerobics instructors who’ve only occasionally gone in the gym.
If you’d like to read a scientist, who’s also an acupuncturist, deconstruct the most common ‘science-based’ criticisms of acupuncture, start with this -
http://www.abetterwaytohealth.com/acupun…
and maybe read more of the blog if you have more questions.

I never use the ‘hey, man, it’s real old, so it’s good’ argument in regards to TCM, lots of bad things are old.
But yeah, well-done Chinese medicine really does shine at fixing chronic problems like this. Look around, talk to the practitioner to see if they’re a flake or serious, get recommendations. Most likely, you’ll need to get a custom formula. Won’t taste good, will work.