Savage Love



You can also find kinky guys at Adam4Adam, Manhunt, and BigMuscle....
"Manhunt: For White Guys and the White Guys Who Love Them".
TOY's sexuality and kinks are probably largely the result of experiences. He's just suspecting the wrong one. How experience shapes sexuality is very poorly understood because there hasn't been much scientifically valid research done on it. This is due to political opposition (from the right and the left) and the whole subject being seen as inappropriate and unworthy of serious investigation.
@ 1 - I think you meant "For Young White Guys with Gym Bodies and the Young White Guys with Gym Bodies Who Love Them".
For HISBALLS: I find Fetlife a good place to meet and make friends with people who one might later end up dating. There are numerous discussion groups focused on CBT, and if you hang out there you're bound to make friends who share your kink, which can lead to meeting (and more!) over time.

Re ERR: the point is that UGH didn't seem aware that his wife might have some sexual feelings of her own which were going unfulfilled, and yet he and his wife like each other and treat each other well in other ways. It seemed premature to jump to cheating, open marriage and divorce as the main options, rather than, say, vibrators, romance novels, and cunnilingus.
This is why that asshole, is an idiot, for saying things like kinks are random and inexplicable

The kinks of a person or persons are actually the opposite of what they are. Just like a garden hose gets kinked and prevents the flow of water, sexual kinks are the opposite.

They are the result of a person who isn't satisfied with of only trickles of their sexuality, and want more water from their kinked hose.

So they un-twist it, and it's un-twisting the twist that caused the sexual "kink", what dumbass calls a kink, is the result of un-twisting the twist that is the garden hose kink. A garden hose kink is twist that becomes more twisted in the hose hose, but when used to describe a person's practice of their sexuality, a kink is the un-twisting of those twisted spots that is the garden hose kink. It's the actual un-twist that becomes a person's sexual kink

Some people only use the criteria of penetration to define fucking or raping. As there is a difference between sexually assaulting someone, molesting them, and raping them
LW1 - You have at least one good instinct, but I really must ask about

[most guys aren't very willing to let me inflict that kind of pain.]

Very? How partially open to your inflicting that sort of pain are they? And you say that almost as if you think they should lose their GGG cards.

While I do not have any firsthand or secondhand knowledge of this particular desire, it seems to fit in with a group of things which can be generalized as A wanting to do X to B, and the difference between A and C, who wants to do X to D, is that A gets off on B's wanting to be on the receiving end of X, and C gets off on D's not wanting X. I shall hope, LW, that you are not the C type, who prefers unwilling or ambivalent partners.

{Was Mr Savage's shilling for another of his thousand and seven friends unseemly? Maybe I only started noticing when he had Ms Motormouth on the podcast a while back.}


LW2 - No, dear, you learned it backwards. It's heterosexuality that's caused by childhood trauma - when it isn't a choice, of course.

{Seriously, though, anyone who blames his/her or any other chosen pronoun possessing of sexuality on anything deserves to be in a Sartre Award, but with whom - Mr Hunter and Ms Driasis? Ms Lava and Mr Monic? Dr Sean and Ms Rowing? some other combination?}


LW3 - Yes, I mentioned that last week. One would expect someone good about marriage equality to be in a much more equal marriage - although I suppose we could say they're both approximately equally miserable (a smidge generous, but there it is).
@3 for the models they use to promote the site, anyway. But let me try again:

"Manhunt: So Many Tweakers, When You Set Up Your Profile We Have You Tick a Box if You Don't Do Meth".
Another heart stopping, mind bending group of questions. Sexual
Orientation. Who the hell knows how it comes about. Or when it comes about.
Some say one is born with an orientation, some say it occurs during a critical phase of development. it is one of life's delightful mysteries.
And what are you setting up now Venn? If I could understand you, I'd know whether to be offended or not.
Wow, I feel a bit sorry for LW#1, whose desires - to fall in love/be loved, and to engage in CBT - seem, on the surface, to be somewhat at odds. "I want to feed you strawberries dipped in chocolate and twist your balls until you moan in pain."

LW#2 - and everyone else who wants to "blame" their sexuality on something - why, o why, must "blame" be involved? Your sexuality is what it is, and unless it's truly destructive, you needn't hunt for someone/something to blame.
Not that you asked for it, but here is "The Week in Preview:"
LW1- Few more days of Hunter and Ven arguing endlessly as to the letter writer's assumed gender, as well as the person they are currently dating. Unless "cub" is a clear indication of some sort that I may be missing. But I suspect there is also an opposite camp cub of some sort by now anyway.

And just in case that wasn't enough...
LW2- "and I'm still insecure about a lot of this." Rest assured, so is everyone else regardless of how they may project themselves.

LW3- It's about time Dan should pay more respect to the on going commenters right here than to some random emailers.
Hey Dirt, how you doing?
Funny drawing ,Joe. Love that guy's ouch eyes.
Oh CMD, you think Dan wastes his time reading us? I wouldn't. I mean, if he did he would have known that for weeks his letters choices for the weekly thread have been below par. I've been sure to mention it.
Then again, he can be such a perverse fellow, he's probably picking the worst questions he can find. Just to let us all know, who the boss is.
Think I got your hose kink story, Dirt.
Kicking a few of the men that have been in my life, in the balls, might be a kink I could warm to.
If I were into receiving CBT (or any other dangerous kink) I would only trust a "disinterested" professional with that. Certainly not some amateur who might love inflicting it a bit too much and might get "carried away" in the heat of the moment.
TOY: Even if you were to find something to "blame" your sexuality on, it still wouldn't change it. And the time you're putting into pathologizing it could be far better spent just enjoying it.
Thanks for clarifying your ideas of sex, Dan. I like the "sex is genital stimulation" definition much better than the "sex is penis penetration" definition. I doubt I'd like sex very much if I only knew the latter definition.
I guess it should really be "sex is genital stimulation and anything else that turns people on" to include kinks and maybe kissing. Sorry.
Something I've always wondered about: Say it could be proven, with absolute certainty, that your sexuality was 100% a result of a head injury you suffered at birth. So what?
Like... what difference would it make?
@ricardo, not where i am. Here Manhunt, like Adam and other sites, has mostly potato-shaped guys. On the other side, at least here it isn't particularly for white guys.
Hunter, sorry to disappoint, but despite my somewhat randomly chosen username i am rather (disappointingly to some) unkinky in bed.
@10: "Cub" is, indeed, a generally used term for a young, hairy gay male (see "bear," a large, hairy gay male). He also specifies that he's in SanFran. LW1 is a dude.

@12: There is proof that Dan does read us, at least sometimes:…
Am ridiculously proud that one of his quotes was from me!

@16: This tends to be the difference between straight people's definition of sex and queer people's definition of sex. What straights call "foreplay," queers call "sex."
@ 20 - I was briefly on Manhunt some 7-8 years ago, and although I wouldn't say there were only young white guys with gym bodies there (where I am, it would be impossible), anyone who wasn't got a barrage of insults. And since my profile specifically stated that I was looking for non-white, middle-aged bears, the abuse never stopped.

So even though they allowed the rest of us in, we didn't exactly feel welcome. hence my comment @ 3.
@ 10 - Dan sometimes reads the comment, I'd say the first few ones at least, because he has quoted them on many occasions. But more importantly, he knows that not all Savage Love readers access his column on the Stranger's website, so if someone sends him an email on a subject that has been debated in the comments, he may choose to run it just so he can actually make amends/fill in the blanks.
To LW #1, I think Dan missed the point about romance. While you can meet fantastic partners at kink events and websites, etc., if you focus upfront on finding a partner who's into a particular sexual M.O., the interaction is going to be more about the M.O. and less about butterflies. It's a problem with any partner-finding method that's not unintentionally meeting someone. Luckily, you can bring in your own romance with a minor amount of work. Oh, you like CBT? Great! How about roses?
@ 25 - "How about roses?"

Roses have thorns. That line might be misinterpreted by CBT aficionados.

How about a plain, direct line like "I like CBT, but I prefer getting to know someone before having sex, going out on a few dates, etc."
I'd put off writing about UGH so long that I felt it was too late to offer something, even though it's relevant. Thanks to ERR, I still get a chance to comment. Not that I'm giving UGH an automatic pass, but yesterday I got more of an education on the fundamentals of fundamentalist "Christian" sexuality.

UGH's wife still suffers from extreme guilt for having broken a major principle from her upbringing, namely no sex before marriage. Still, she managed to get her reward, namely a presumably good man. However, with the compounded guilt and most likely NO sex education at all other than to ALWAYS be available for your husband (remember how Michelle said, "Duggar women don't get headaches") because ALL men are horndogs, it doesn't matter how encouraging and supportive UGH may have been re exercise and boosting libido (I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt). Early on in the marriage, she probably broke down and told him that she'd always be available for sex, even though she didn't get any/much pleasure out of it. So, UGH has taken advantage of that; however, after so many years, pumping away inside a body that is disconnected from his emotionally and spiritually during sex, it's not that enjoyable. I imagine her lying there, either with that vacuous Duggar-like grin or with her eyes closed while she's writing out the grocery list and figure that's why it's taking him so long to come. I'm also giving him the benefit of the doubt that those 30 minutes include changing positions but her constant body shame makes her feel awkward, so she calls a halt to it after half an hour, claiming exhaustion.

I also cannot imagine her permitting him to try to awaken or increase her sexual pleasure with either oral (OMG, "sodomy") or manual (OMG, "masturbation"). I can still see why she breaks down by admitting her failure ... that she's not enough for him. She's bewildered why he doesn't fall into the carefully constructed slot of sexually satisfied husband as long as she allows him the use of her body on a semi-regular basis. It contradicts everything she'd been taught but she can't overcome her brainwashing.

AFAIC, fundies shouldn't marry outside of their faith. And normal people should avoid them.
@26 discussing logistics of how one's potential relationship should unfold doesn't exactly moisten the panties.
@26, @28 by which I mean, yeah, sure, make that clear and get it out of the way as fast as possible so you can move onto something that might actually make that person long for a good ball-crushing at your hand.
By the way, the link for comments has disappeared from desktop IE and Firefox. The only way I can see comments is via my phone.
Correction, the comments link does appear in IE after all, but is on top of the "Share on Twitter" button, so it is very hard to find. It doesn't show on Firefox at all, but that may be because I adblocked Facebook/Twitter.
@ 28/29 - I'll take your word for it, as romantic types have never moistened my panties at all. I'm of the "fuck first, speak later to see if it's worth pursuing more than sex (or don't really speak at all if the sex wasn't worth it)" school.
I have a ball-torture kink too, except it's very specific. Every four years, I have a powerful urge to line up all the Republican candidates and kick them in the balls repeatedly. Eventually the urge passes.

@5 - Hi Dirtclustit. I don't always get what you're talking about, but that makes sense! Try not to be so negative, though. Dan's doing the best he can, like most of us.
Helenka (also a Canuck) @27 "I also cannot imagine her permitting him to try to awaken or increase her sexual pleasure with either oral or manual."

You think no fundamentalist women have ever come around to enjoying sex after learning more? Perhaps with the help of "marital aids" like vibrators (rather than supplements for her libido)? He could also try sending her to the Taken in Hand websites. That shit is hot.
People still use internet explorer and firefox?
Fan@22. Yes I saw that Dan used your words, of course you'd be pleased.
Just me in a bad mood, Dan. It happens.
I didn't realize romance meant just talking before sex. To me it means a little more than that. Some sort of connection as people as well as a shared kink.
Hunter @ 19, BiDan @ 22
Yes, LW1 is most likely bio male. He may still be a trans man identified as gay, they do exist, which may add to the frustration and awkwardness. But as you two pointed out, not very likely.
Lava @ 37
Or as you eluded to earlier, once you do get to know them you may even develop a kink. Like kicking them in the groin...
Mx Wanna - And here I thought I'd been relatively nice to you - how did I offend?
Ven- you have been indeed nice to me. I thought it may be funny and sorry I did offend.

Mx Wanna
Joe's drawing made me think it, CMD.
I'm sure kicking isn't really part of the kink.. Is it?
Sounds a very specific person who would find this kink a buzz. How to integrate romance into it, maybe present oneself as a whole person. Not just a walking kink.
@42 - Kicking can be part of CBT, for some people it's pretty specifically that. Usually yanking and twisting, though. Or squeezing. Or dangling weights... Mmm.
EricaP @34
Of course, anything is possible; just as nothing is possible. For all the women whose bodies have been awakened and minds liberated, there are also those who refuse to let go of their sense of guilt and shame. For all we know, UGH's wife continues to punish herself for having sinned before marriage and nothing but NOTHING can remove that sin. She feels body shame, but won't exercise. She might have a low libido, but won't try supplements. Even if UGH bought her a vibrator, she'd probably still blame herself, that God has broken her wifely sexual responsiveness as a punishment ... and that defying God – AGAIN – is worse.

Mind you, I'm not just targeting women. I'm sure you've read about the totally sex-averse cults where its adherents go to bed clothed from neck to ankle, except for an opening in front to permit ::coughs discreetly:: intercourse. And that's AFTER marriage!

The only hope I could envision for this couple is if they could find a female therapist who had once belonged to the same fundamentalist group as the wife, but who now practises beyond its limitations. [Once again, I'm kicking myself for not having bookmarked the excellent article I read yesterday.]
i dont think we need to go back and forth about the gender of LW1... it says right in the letter...

"First, as a gay man who's a bit of an old-fashioned romantic..."

EricaP @34
Another important factor to remember is that fundie women have to flip a switch in their brains/bodies after marriage. What was bad is now good, etc. OTOH, fundie men never had to flip any switch. They're considered to be naturally sexual animals, but aren't blamed for it. It's only the women who are tasked with being the sacred gatekeepers and it's all their fault if they let down their guard. As the husband didn't come from the same background, he wasn't aware of the depth of her indoctrination. Another reason for people from diverse backgrounds to disclose their ethics and values before something as serious as a LTR or marriage is considered.
@ 45 - The LW might be lying to throw us off, or to protect his/her actual identity, you know? Until s/he writes in to confirm that s/he's a man, and gay, some of us will keep wondering.

Glad I'm not one of them, though.
Thanks to ERR for speaking out about the wife of sexless UGH's letter last week, and to Dan for acknowledging ERR's well made point. I wonder if UGH could be my ex (he's onto wife #3)?

Dan, thank you, too, for keeping us American women enlightened about the inbred evil that is GOP! Is there a way we can have right-wing-nut GOP males universally castrated? Gee, no abortions required!
@15 lolorhone: Lolo! long time no hear from! How are you?

@48, continued: What I'm agreeing with (in ERR's letter) is whether or not UGH's wife is really experiencing pleasure after 30 minutes of bumping and grinding, or is just dutifully lying there like a lump while her spouse is pounding away. But otherwise, EricaP has a point, too----UGH and ERR are just asking Dan for HIS advice. Mainly, that's between them.
Mx Wanna - I wasn't offended. Carry on in pursuit of enjoyment.


As for gendres (I really do like that spelling - much more chic; my thanks to whoever it was who got me to think of spelling it that way in the first place) of LWs, I'm on August Rules - presuming universal homosexuality until a LW confesses otherwise.
@ 51 - I also see "First, as a gay man who's a bit of an old-fashioned romantic..."

Do you have some sort of parental-control software on your computer that removes dirty words such as "a gay man"?
When does sex start? I agree with Dan, it begins way before penis in vagina. A man who has to pump for 30 minutes, is a man in trouble. Around me he would be.
Venn, do I get a Sartre Award or not.. And do I want one? He was a bit of a dick. How about a Camus Award?

Grizelda, yeah. My marriage ended after 30 yrs. What ages are your brothers' kids?
My youngest was just 13, and in the Jewish tradition that's a man. My ex is Jewish, and after 30 yrs,
I took in a bit (?)of his culture. Maybe on some level we thought, great, the kid's a man..
Now we can say bye bye to each other.
I sort of kept the youngest away from his father a bit. Maybe I wanted at least one son. Not the others aren't mine, just the father/ son story was way intense with our first three.
My youngest has been living at his girlfriend's, only daughters in that family. So he is surrogate son. The dad in that family, nice quiet man.
My boy has got himself a typewriter and has dropped his shifts this week, so he can write his screenplay out! He actually goes thru my books and gets excited about them. That is a pleasure to see.
As his girl
Is in her last yr of high school, he's coming home while she can study. See her on the weekends. She wants to be a criminal psychologist.
So. Now I'll have all four sons in and out of home. Seriously, it's like Animal Kindgom, except I don't want my sons to be criminals. RealPhilo, I wish you could be here, tell me how these boys are like girls.
I'm glad to see that Dan ran ERR's e-mail as I know a lot of us in the comments were considering UGH's wife. I'm hoping the situation isn't quite as dire as Helenka describes. UGH's letter says she was "raised" conservatively, but not that she's still an active member of a fundie church (I doubt she would have married outside of her faith if she was), and I remember even Mark Driscoll talking about how men should try to please their wives as well. But if she is that mired in guilt probably only therapy (and maybe not with her husband there) can help and who knows if she would want to go.
Omg, are words appearing and disappearing? Is Dan fucking with our heads? I bet it's the boys in the Art dept. they have been playing visual tricks for a while.
The other week for a couple of days, they put a man with a medieval helmet on, as a replacement for one of Joe's cartoons. And a couple of times, they have thrown someone's visual, right at the front of the thread.
So now, the words.
Just kidding.about the words. Dead set truth about the visuals.
Of course this kid is a gay man.
If a woman was into terrorizing mens' balls, her language would be far more strident than this kid's is.
He's a sweet boy, who wants a bit of intimacy, along with having his kink satisfied.
@51-@53: I too see "as a gay man," which I could have sworn was not there yesterday when I looked for clues as to LW's gender. Looks like Dan or a minion is reading the comments and editing for clarity.

As for Helenka's theory, that's an awful lot of assumptions. It's possible, but I would certainly not want to read so much into the private life of any couple based on a single line in a single letter!
So they are messing with our heads..
I thought it was Chairman, short circuiting the gender debate. We knew at least one of them had balls.
hahaha. Interesting.... so they sometimes change the letters after publication.... that's kinda fucked up.... (even if helpful in this case).
Ms Lava - A Sartre Award (and here it is fitting to give Ms Cute - I think it was Ms Cute - credit for figuring it out without an explanation when it was introduced) is given to a trio of people who would make excellent casting in No Exit. We frequently see pairs of people who would do very nicely as two parts of the triangle if we could find the right third.
@ 56 - "If a woman was into terrorizing mens' balls, her language would be far more strident than this kid's is"

I can certainly picture that sort of intensity coming from a woman (especially a woman scorned). Many guys enjoy inflicting CBT, but I think that in most cases, the knowledge of how much it must hurt prevents them from giving it their all.
@13 Lava THAT line is a classic:.hee hee.
But seriously folks. Where do our fixations derive? I was waay into the "A" of "T & A" when I was 12 years old. Then something (life? puberty?) happens and I suddenly get fixated on the "T" part. Now I am past 60 and I keep going back and forth like a metronome. What gives? Who Knows!
Quite possibly he is Bi.(?)
case in point: I too fantasize about bondage and my "daydreams" run 70/30 Straight/Gay. I have always identified as straight but then there is the CD fetish, (and the 30% gay part).
Human Brains and sexuality are often, (as doctors like to say) "poorly understood".
I think Helenka's right that UGH is a victim of religion. Women psychologically capable of enjoying sex don't generally complain about how long their men last. Nor are they baffled by the idea that a man may not be able to climax if his partner is clearly tolerating rather than enjoying sex.
Helenka wrote: For all the women whose bodies have been awakened and minds liberated, there are also those who refuse to let go of their sense of guilt and shame.

I don't think the word refuse is fair. It's not a simple conscious choice. It's a multi-step process that can take decades. Many victims of anti-sex, religious, emotional programming don't even realize that their response to sex is different from anybody else's. Even after the religion has been rejected on an intellectual level, the programmed emotions remain powerful.

When shown a video of a woman fully enjoying sex, a repressed woman will say that she's faking it to conform to a male fantasy or that she's pathological, a nymphomaniac or pervert. Rarely will a victim of religion say, "Gee, why don't I enjoy sex like that?"
Yeah sb53@63. Straight after me @14, registered European threw in that if he was into this kink, he'd only go with a professional. He suddenly saw where this could go.
Looking at good bodies is looking at good bodies.
I can't go past a man with nice arms. And underarm hair, that always grabs me.
Looking at women, there are some beautiful women around.
True Allen@65. After being done over by the Catholic Church, I feel I'm only now, really taking my full sexual power on.
What a shit. What a waste.
And I've only really found it by myself, not with a man.
I feel a girl/ woman has to find her own sex first, without guilt or censure.
Then it opens up and is free.
@64: Women psychologically capable of enjoying sex don't generally complain about how long their men last.

This is not necessarily true. Women produce differing levels of natural lube. After a certain amount of fucking, the lube runs out and sex becomes painful. Five minutes? Ten? Half an hour? Three? It varies, but being fucked when you have gone dry is no fun. It's a common myth that, because a man coming in just a couple of minutes is bad, women want PIV sex to last as long as possible. If I'm not well and truly satisfied after 10-15 minutes (I can usually have several orgasms in this space of time), I'm probably not going to be, so he may as well relax and enjoy his orgasm. Which, quite often, will induce me to come again too.
Shit. Didn't see @64. The old Allen, still lurks. How would you know? You got a cunt?
@70 Hunter, here is the passage from last week (I kept the tab open):
She explained that her upbringing was conservative and she felt guilty about having sex before marriage.
AFAIK, "conservative" usually comes with religious baggage of varying weight. Are there any conservatives who oppose sex before marriage without citing appropriately condemning Biblical passages? [Just as opponents of SSM can't defend their stance without falling back on the Bible, IMO.]
Auntie Griz @49: I'm doing well, how are you? I've missed all you crazy kids! Where's my husband these days? This new profile picture ain't just for the sake of change. :)
sb53 @ 63
“I have always identified as straight but then there is the CD fetish, (and the 30% gay part).”
Not sure I get it. Did you mean that since you started cross dressing your sexuality somewhat shifted towards homosexuality, and I assume men in this context? Or that you define cross dressing as such? Another possible homosexual encounter, which may not be very common nor always accepted, is if you’re having sex with a woman in your female persona.
No right or wrong, plenty more terms and abbreviations out there, just wonder.
As for me, after embracing my feminine self I extended my potential mates pool to include masculine women as well as trans men.
@65 Allen Gilliam
You're right. "Refuse" was too harsh a word, although one could say that a woman in similar circumstances might be left clinging to theories and practices she now knows subconsciously to be false; but she simply cannot abandon them, because it would mean that her family and community had lied to her, betrayed her.
@72 Hunter78 (from FTR "Helenka")

Hmm. If I were in that position (and, yes, I have been), I'd suggest variations for fucking; I'd urge my partner to seek medical help; if my partner refused to try despite my gentle support and inventiveness in bed, then that person doesn't get to fuck me at all and eventually gets dropped by me. I don't hurt my own psyche by allowing my partner to use me when there's no sincere attempt made to improve attitude and skills.

The "gay" or "asexual" aspect is intriguing, though, because it does fall into the consequences of a guilty conscience. It's her fault she had sex before marriage. So being either gay or asexual could be her fault as well. Being gay is taboo while being asexual is not something she knows if all she's been taught is that everyone gets straight-married and then has sex. Fade to black. The end.

Lava @ 67
Your thoughts about life-long oppression and "if" can be applied to all genders/identities and the environments they grew up in. “Every generation feels the same,” said the friend I whined to about being born too early.
What warms my heart is seeing so many youngsters who are accepted as who they are. Besides, look at most married people our age: they’re either sinking into deadly routine or hold a shameful secret, while we routinely send exploratory delegations to unchartered territories.

@54 LavaGirl: Ouch! I'm sorry to hear (read about) your divorce after 30 years, too, like my brother and sister-in-law. You as well as my brother's whole family are in my heartfelt thoughts and prayers. My second oldest nephew and youngest niece are both in their 20s. So at least there's no threat of an ugly custody battle. They're adults living their lives, as well----but I know their parents' breakup is an awkward transition for them, too. I guess all I can offer are thoughts. prayers, and words of loving encouragement.

@73 Lolorhone: I'm doing okay; music helps me stay out of trouble. It's great to have you back with us! You were greatly missed.
@55 Calico Cat: I just love the photo icon of your adopted feline---she is a sweetie! She looks like she's keeping her eyes on you.
I agree with you on your concerns about UGH's wife; all we have is UGH's side of their marital story, but hopefully her situation really isn't as bad as Helenka (re: @44 & @46) has described.

Whoa! Now you're not even using my nickname?!?

Anyway, if you think about it from the perspective of a hyper-religiously-raised woman, then asexuality or being gay are the consequences of the repeated transgression, compounded by guilt. [I'm not expressing myself clearly today. Ack.] Remember, fundies don't believe being gay is inborn. It's chosen ... or perhaps a curse (or, in its lighter version, a burden one must endure). Because fundies want to see consequences for everything.
@80 Griz, I didn't actually adopt her; we fostered her so she could live in a home and not the shelter, but she was still technically a shelter cat during that time. We DID however adopt two of our later foster cats, but I just love this photo so I still use it :)

Would UGH's wife *still* be feeling guilty about having had sex before marriage now that they are married and have been for years? For me, that read more as her pre-marriage excuse, while now the excuses are that she's fat or whatever else as Hunter said in 72. But, of course, we are all interpreting a lot based on one sentence.
@82 Calico Cat: She's still lucky to have had you foster her though, as is / are whoever adopted her from outside the shelter.

Agreed on UGH and his wife: just one SL letter + a lot of interpretation = a ton of speculation.
How does Hunter or anyone else know that UGH's wife is fat (unless UGH actually said so in his letter to Dan)? Aahhhhhh, what delightful webs these comment threads weave.......
CMD, I don't know know a lot of married people, my age. My friend talks me thru her stuff, she and her man are still bubbling along, after 30 yrs.
Unchartered territories, yes. It is strange to step outside age stereotypes and just be in oneself and the age one is. Not let the age define who one is.
@61Venn. Thanks but no thanks. Don't need no one to sort out threes for me.
Hey, whatever turns you on.
@85: Okay, thanks, Hunter. How did I miss that one? Now I really feel genuinely sorry for UGH's wife for her dutifully having to lie through her spouse's 30 minutes of huffing and puffing 'til he blows the house in. I am guilty as charged among speculators, here, but----is it possible UGH's wife might have played the "I feel too fat to be attractive" card to get out of undesirable PIV with her husband (30 minutes of huffing and puffing)? UGH sounds so much like my ex it isn't funny.
I've been there, too. Fuck.
@74: Sex between a woman and a man dressed as a woman is not "homosexual" sex, though it can definitely be "queer" sex or "genderqueer" sex.

@77: Funny. I always thought I was born too late. I should have lived the 60s. Youth is truly wasted on the young. :)
At 12 yrs old my first sort of "sexual awakening" I noticed asses and did not discriminate between male or female. A nicely shaped "10" tush was a "10" male or female. As I got a bit older, I was all about the boobs.
Decades pass. Marriage, children, G-children, intimacy in marriage slowly turns into a sort of feeling that I am "living with my sister."
Then I began the CD experiment and noticed that it (surprise!) brought me attention from other men who were CDing. My response to attention from men was an unfamiliar mixture of, on the one hand being flattered, and at the exact same time feeling embarrassment and confusion. This mixture of enjoyment at being approached and also embarrassment and confusion still prevails. I remain confused, but I do find this weekly column fascinating. Is this helpful?
Perhaps wife in UGH has self-image issues. If she feels unattractive a husband has poor power to relieve that. He CAN be genuine in his compliments to her, but it is an uphill fight if she sees ugliness when she looks into the mirror. I know one woman who only sees herself as attractive in the PAST tense. She will see herself in a 10 year old photo and say "Wow". Interesting that she always did this:.... 20's 30's 40's etc.
@90 sb53: You make some good points about how a lot of us can see ourselves (re: UGH's letter), despite heartfelt compliments from others. Twenty-five years ago, I had developed poor eating habits from an abusive relationship of nine years. Ironically what feels like 1,000 years after my divorce later, I now look and feel infinitely better--certainly a lot healthier--than I ever did at 30 and 40. I was 20-something once, but that was way back during the Ferris Bueller and Marty McFly years when classic rock died, wild, "shredded look" clothes with leg zippers on skinny jeans and big hair were "IN". Yoiks, Scoob!
BiDanFan @ 88
So many terms and definitions come from different directions. Some women who date crossdrssers/bigendrs/whatever male-born may opt not to have sex with them while in their female persona because they – the wives/girlfriends- are not lesbians. Their words, and I think they have a point.

It is also possible for a born male to toggle between genders and identify as a woman at least part of the time.
While still a stretch to most when it comes to part-timers it seems to me like acceptance of trans men is a bit easier in this regard for different reasons.
I may be wrong, feel free to chime in. Needless to say, I'd love to hear from trans men about their experiences.
sb53@ 89
“Helpful” is whatever is helpful for you. Just wonder how the mind works and hope all the challenges you face will be resolved in a peaceful, fulfilling manner.

Some of us may recall a line from an early King Crimson album: “Confusion will be my epitaph”
Sb53@90, my way around that, is I don't look in the mirror. Except my makeup mirror, when I put my lipstick on.
A woman is brainwashed with how she should look, so to avoid that, I don't test it.
How I feel from the inside, is how I look. Human energy is what is really attractive. Like if Sam Shepard walked thru my door, as he is, I would be real pleased. Cause doesn't matter how old one is, really.. It's keeping that life spark alive.
LavaGirl wrote: How would you know? You got a cunt?

Not since you broke up with me, ba dum bum cheeee!

(Just kidding. You can't feed me a straight line like that.)
Helenka wrote: ...a woman in similar circumstances might be left clinging to theories and practices she now knows subconsciously to be false; but she simply cannot abandon them, because it would mean that her family and community had lied to her, betrayed her.

I think that would still be emotional, just different emotions.
Right Allen. You got my point. You got to watch those attitudes.
A woman will call a boring fuck whenever she wants, remember that.
@93 Wanna
I am conflicted about my attraction to men who also CD. I am very comfortable living in my masculine role. BUT there is a part of my identity where on occasion the feminine becomes dominant. Thus far I have been most comfortable in my feminine role when in the presence of a female who is dominant. (In all these cases a professional). These women have encouraged me to do this and helped me fulfill fantasies of mine and shared their interest in watching a man transform into a feminine role.
Honestly, part of the enjoyment in acting out a feminine role is participating in the enjoyment of the Domme. One big impetus for my experiments is a desire to be with someone who is interested in sex. It feels so lonely to live day to day with someone to whom I am attracted sexually but no longer feels that way about me, so that most of the sex I am having anymore is by myself. These topics are not discussions that I could ever have with my spouse, of course.
Lava. I have to see my face every AM when I shave and prepare for work, and the effect of gravity and years makes this a sobering time every day! Like you, I must accept what time has done, but I don't have to like it. I remind myself that I have the body of a man, not a boy. I am not going to get a facelift, and so my face will eventually look like my grampa Tim. I remind myself that at my age he was resting in a box in a cemetery, whereas I keep going like the Energizer Bunny (only with better sunglasses).
I am grateful that I still find women my own age attractive, because if I ever have to start dating those are the only ones who will notice me!
Lava. I have to see my face every AM when I shave and prepare for work, and the effect of gravity and years makes this a sobering time every day! Like you, I must accept what time has done, but I don't have to like it. I remind myself that I have the body of a man, not a boy. I am not going to get a facelift, and so my face will eventually look like my grampa Tim. I remind myself that at my age he was resting in a box in a cemetery, whereas I keep going like the Energizer Bunny (only with better sunglasses).
I am grateful that I still find women my own age attractive, because if I ever have to start dating those are the only ones who will notice me!
oops sorry double -post by accident.
@91 Auntie
Oh Geez, Auntie G. I re-read your bio and you too were infected by nuns!
WE had Franciscans in Northern Wisconsin;.... who taught your school?
I feel I must defend nuns on at least one count. All my writing life I have been praised for the quality of my penmanship (although I feel rather like Hyacinth Bucket spouting on the quality of her bathroom linen or the expence of her Royal Doulton tea service with the hand-painted periwinkles), which can be traced directly back to the tutelage of nuns. To their credit, they didn't even attempt to make me write with my right hand or angle the paper strangely.
sb53. I don't think men are so invested in how they look, as women are. Look at the role models we have cultural, ie the movies. You've got men just looking like themselves into their late age.. i.e.;Clint Eastward. The women, only a few of them seem to age. It's weird what females are put thru re their looks.
Sorry to hear you are lonely with your wife. Why can't you tell her your truth? You can tell us, perfect strangers.. Yet not your life partner?
has she given you a pass to fulfil your desires, elsewhere? Or does she think it's all just not an issue because you don't mention it?
sb53; your wife may not be attracted to her own sexuality, nothing to do with finding you sexually attractive. If she isn't in touch with her own sensuality, then she has nothing to share. You got to kick her arse a bit. It's nothing to do with how a woman looks, it's her connection to her own sensual nature. If she has that, then she wants to fuck.
@92: You don't have to be a lesbian to be a woman who likes sex with women. Bisexual/queer/pansexual women also like sex with women. So a woman who won't fuck her male partner when cross dressed isn't "not a lesbian", she's "straight." Still, as you say, certainly her prerogative.

Absolutely agree that gender fluidity is a thing.
@101 sb53: Actually, no, my upbringing didn't involve nuns. I'm neither Catholic nor attached to any one particular house of religious worship (although I do enjoy holiday church services and choir concerts). I DID, however, live a very sheltered childhood as the youngest of four children with three much older siblings who were all done with high school and out of the house by my 10th birthday.
Unless, of course, you would still classify every shamefully meddlesome, tongue-flapping piece of excess finger-wagging, harshly judgmental, apron string choking henhouse baggage and nervous housewife who's ever known my family over the past six decades who had stubbornly insisted that I forever needed their "constant adult supervision" as particularly nunlike. I certainly wouldn't--that would be an insult to nuns--the good ones who aren't like that, anyway.
@101 sb53: Seriously--how did you get the impression upon re-reading my bio that I, too, was infected by nuns (as you said)?
Wow---after looking again at this week's Joe Newton illustration I've gotta say Ouch!
I don't know---I'm a bio female, don't have a penis or scrotum and never did---plenty of guys are into this and more power to 'em, but that looks like one hell of a kink (no pain no gain?)!