@nocutename: I hope yours was equally great

Well, it was a family vacation, so....

London is my new favorite city in the world. All the excitement of NYC but very polite and much less brutal. The London tube is the apex of human achievement, as far as I'm concerned. Many highlights, including spending a rare full day with my 13 yo daughter traipsing around East London enjoying the vintage stores and cafes and hipsters and awesome accents.

Paris was a mixed bag, although that was mostly our fault, not Paris's. Highlight - a hot English babe at the top of the Eiffel tower told me my sunglasses were cool after my family had been mercilessly mocking them all week.

My wife and I weren't speaking to each other the morning we left Paris, but we arrived in Cannes to an amazing apartment with a huge lanais and panoramic view of the water and town and an orange juice squeezer machine and art and a sumptuous master bedroom with a huge bath and towel warmer and locking door (thanks, AirBnB!), so we rather hilariously made up the minute our host finished showing us around the place, opened the rosé she'd left for us in the fridge, and had a really wonderful, relaxing week.

Ms Cute - Well, I'm glad you're richer than I am; I'll never get to the Hebrides. (Indeed, I haven't had a holiday away anywhere in fourteen years.) You didn't get to the island of Eigg, did you?

Sounds great nocute, with your daughter
too. That is special.
i am not good on group holidays. Couple of people to accomodate and work with, fine. Need to get off on my own too much. And people insist on talking about stuff, so much of the time.

@Venn What 'justice' are you seeking? I've asked the question before and never gotten an answer from you about why you're treating BEAST like she's committed some horrible crime that we're overlooking? That she doesn't want to have sex with her partners doesn't make an manipulative monster anymore than someone having sex that doesn't make babies is 'selfish'.

Far too many people here are acting like her decision to not have penetrative sex is some sort insult, when it's just a choice. A choice she gets to make about her life, just like her potential partners will also have to make choice, whether to accept her 'Price of Admission' or seek out someone else. An option that is always open to them.

Mr. Ven, I exaggerated: I only went to one Hebridie and an inner one at that: Skye. But we spent time in the Highlands: Loch Lomond and a few more places. It was beautiful. I had to save for two years, but my daughter had spent her junior year abroad at St Andrews, and I really wanted to meet up with her. It was a really budget trip: I stayed in her dorm room for 5 days and we cooked in the dorm kitchen (you don't want to know), and then stayed in youth hostels the rest of the time. Montenegro and Croatia were much less expensive than the UK, too, which was one of the reasons for going there. Still, it will take me a year or so to get back to being able to live paycheck to paycheck . . . and it was totally worth it.

I've been reading What Was She Thinking? and I'm really enjoying it.

In the Savage Love Universe I am really weird. My fetish is that I only like PIV and PIM sex. So I don't understand BEAST. Maybe she should try the basics before exploring the other kinks she thinks she might like.

@CMD: You should come!

CMD@101. You a fortune teller as well as a psychologist. A person of so many talents.
Gee Sean. That holiday sounds tough. Good to hear you & the wife enjoyed some of it. And your daughter got to see the shops with her dad.

@101 I think everyone is reading way too much into the life of this woman. She describes herself as having low self esteem, so it's reasonable to think she may be insecure and angry. "Asexuality" seems to be a label the repressed are eager to adopt these days, so she's probably not really asexual either. However, I have no reason to think her fetishes are a result of anxiety. The fetishes she describes are rather specific. She wants to torture male genitals. That's... not a desire somebody develops just because they're scared of men. I think people have sexual fetishes because it's what they find sexually arousing not because they were ugly in high school.

Maybe you should go along CMD, to keep an eye on Sean.
I'm hearing the same issues coming out of you Sean, as the other two.. Tim and Late.
Didn't you guys read the fine print?
And if you have Children with this Woman, you better watch out.
Tough, tough gig. And nobody can tell you. Unique experience, Parenthood.
Seat of your pants sort of story.
And the kids are heading towards explosion time. Young adulthood. It doesn't have to be explosive, if the parents are on board with what a fucking freak show it can get. Oh ok, this has happened. Never worked so hard in my life. The last boy, I had to steer thru on my own. He was at a good school, that helped. And he trusted me.
My husband had women eyeing him off in front of me. He thought he was the ants pants. He didn't realize it was because he was so well loved/ in parts, by his family.. That he stayed looking so good. Now.. Lost his kids because some other woman laced him up in her black widow spider's web. She was very skilful. Blew me out of the water.
I wanted to get out of the water. His arrogance about himself, finally wore me down. It was a painful, painful time, yet I was so thankful to that woman.
That was me, though. I was done.
You guys really got to ask yourselves if your wives are the women you want to grow old with. Have the kids and grandkids drop over etc etc.
And if the answer is yes, then no cheating. Cause you'll lose her. The deep part of her, will close down to you. And she'll start plotting her exit time.
Kids do grow, they really do. All of a sudden they in their 20's, and off they go.
My husband didn't work hard enough on himself, for me to want to go into old age with him. And five years on, it was really the right choice.

Sorry CMD, it was brave of you to start.
I'd rather go backwards from the behaviour. Roughing up men's testicles, where would an erotic desire like that, come from?
I did this workshop once, during the day. People getting into their stuff. This one guy, his mother used to feel that his underpants fitted properly, till he was well into his teens.
How sexuality is being expressed today, is really adventurous and daring. And also, some of it, very perplexing. As long as empathy is maintained in all these different scenarios, then it is just sexual play.
Not sure I picked up much empathy tor her partners from this LW, in how she wrote the letter. The first time I read it, it send a chill up me. I found her energy very disturbing.
And Dan throws it back up again.

Re@117. Sent a chill up me.

Ms Anon - How long have you been among the assembled company? I don't mention it every tenth post, but I was forced into conversion therapy against my will about forty years ago. While it strikes me as fair to allow some bit of reach in what people consider being "trapped" in one closet or another (and, as I mentioned earlier, claiming that one feels trapped in the closet seems quite acceptable and I might have responded as Mr Savage did had I liked such a LW), my natural response to such a complete overreach as LW's is, "You should be." This strikes me as justice, though not mercy. (Again, I do not grudge anyone who wants me to be found dead in a vicarage. At the rate I'm going, it's likely that such a fate would be quite timely, and I'd be pleased to provide amusement to amateur detectives.) Now, it's possible that for some 23-year-olds, I might make allowances, but LW has run the Gendre Studies gamut; she ought to know better. Owning my bias, I admit I'm being harsh and that I ought not to be the only one involved in passing sentence. But it would require a shared or similar involuntary history for someone to be able to argue me into a different frame of mind.

Ms Cute - Does memory serve correctly that this is the Miss Cute on whom I shall never be able to bestow total approval regardless of her many other virtues and accomplishments because she's never played golf? It makes me feel like Fanny Price with Mary Crawford in Mrs Grant's garden.

Now I'm thinking about rainy walks to post offices, and so had better stop.

@119: "my natural response to such a complete overreach as LW's is, "You should be." This strikes me as justice, though not mercy."

What if her own issues were due to repressive parents making her fear her sexuality?

For what act done are you seeking justice in the LW? At this point since she is implied to be entirely without experience, this is a proactive demand for her to be ssexles along the lines of what one would wish on a pedophile. Her crime is being young, stunted from her peers and (for whatever reason) fearful. She hasn't touched a single nice boy's heart (or balls.)

I don't begrudge you your fear and mistrust of someone themselves driven themselves by fear and mistrust, I hope you find some happiness beyond whatever now or lurking has you distressed.

Ms Lava - If the two of us agree, then one of us must be wrong.

[I really like that line, but fear that it can't possibly be original.]

Seriously, though, I think it's possible to make a case that her Gendre Studies course ended up being a case of intrusion rather than education, thrusting her tastes into her rather than leading them out of her. I don't think the odds favour that interpretation, but I could argue the case. Maybe I should contemplate the letter again thinking of LW as Mary MacGregor.

Mr. Ven, the only golf that either I or either of the Miss Cutes (or even their father, the former Mr. Cute) plays is of the miniature variety.
I used to assume that "big" golf would have larger castles, windmills, cottages, etc. What a disappointment.

@122: "I think it's possible to make a case that her Gendre Studies course ended up being a case of intrusion rather than education"

Seems a bit convenient of a bugbear for the foci of her sexuality and inexperience?

"thrusting her tastes into her rather than leading them out of her"

Well, does she not deserve a reprieve from the fearful constructs in her mind imposed by at the very least herself and possibly others? Even she doesn't know where her ultimate tastes reside or will end up. She's been chaste so far in all but mind.

Last @ 115
Oh yes, we are reading way too much here into other people’s lives. This is big part of the fun, though I‘m aware that it can get annoying some times.
Now back to the tortured life of the torturer wanna be…

I’m also questioning her asexuality, I think she chose it in order to signal others to leave her alone.

So where do kinks come from?… Not that it matters, and they should be explored (yes, yes, within legal limits and consideration to others.) Hard to tell, but some times they may appear as if to compensate for something, relieving a trauma, or revenge of some sort.

Just looked at the crystal ball again this morning. By the age of 40 she’ll have two kids. They’ll grow up just fine.

And again, there's going to be quite a difference between the tumblrgifs she might have interest in CBT through and having to stage any scene with a live participant. She'll have to build herself up to that level anyway.

Lava @ 116,117
When I first read the letter I placed a hand on my crotch, just to make sure no one is going to do any damage. But there are people on both sides of the genitalia and genders and somewhere in between who would be happy to engage in what she described. That’s fine, to each their own.
For some unknown reasons not all women are delighted to see their male-born partners entering the bedroom while wearing beautiful lingerie. Go figure.

I see a lot of anxiety in that young woman, and as Undead rightfully keeps stating also some serious disconnections from the real world. But I also sense intelligence and a desire to try things that are out of the ordinary. It takes strength to articulate what she’s up to, let alone pursue it. I hope things will balance out for her over time.

Based purely on my own experience, if I were going to hazard a guess as to where some of these tastes originated from, like @103, it would be anime, video games, pretty J-rockers, and possibly even choose your own adventure anime porn games.

Forgot to add: And the fanfiction based on such.

@129: Yeah. The out" asexuals I know do tend to tend to meet the hikikomori model (though westerners). They like their cosplay and videogames and have little interest in pursuing others, it takes time away from their other hobbies and clubs. Who knows about this LW though.

@81 undead - May I say, I'm so thankful for tumblr gifs? I remember the old days of buying mainstream VHS porn tapes and it was all hot young girls and an ugly middle aged dude, then trying "porn for women" and it was all boring plot heavy stories about Fabioesque plumbers and pizza delivery men. Hooray for tumbr gifs!

YesCMD, to each his own.
It's having some feeling for the partner, that concerns me. I'm not interested in aiding someone who seems to have little concept of that.
Really Calico, all those ways of wanting to be with a man, from a screen?
Venn, why? You think we so unlike. I've been finding your posts of late to be much more comprehensible and your opinions on stuff, I often agree with.
So, does this young woman actually talk with young men? Have any feeling for them as people? I'd suggest she go there first. Open her mind and heart, and just be around males for a while. Loosen up her so clearly defined
Set of must haves, and go to the group meetings etc, and develop her sense of looking into another person.
People can have sex, in all its varieties, as if playing a part, a scripted exchange.. All part of the fun, I assume.
Must come a point too, where one would like to have some human connection to one's partner. A sense of their complexity and humanity.

@132: They're always so much better than the full videos or clips they come from, too.

That said, so many people I've tried to follow have such bad taste in videos, and the text people tack on to the images, blecch. Tumblr is/was for Hannibal jokes and food porn.

@135 Undead - Agreed. I don't bother following anyone. I just search for exactly what I want when I want it, then scroll until I find it. I find the format perfect for that and i appreciate being able to find specific stuff I know I will likely respond to vs. general porn browsing. (Sorry to stray so far from the topic of the thread!)

@Venn I've been here for a few years at least but I didn't know your backstory. You have my sympathy, that sounds awful, but I'm not sure what this has to do with the LW.

Yes using 'trapped in the closet' was a bad choice of words but once again you seem to want to condemn this woman based on crimes she hasn't committed solely because of poor word choice?

I mean we have no real power over this woman's life but I think you have to admit that's harsher than necessary. I think Lavagirl is right that the LW needs to start interacting with people before she seeks out a partner to try her kinks on.

I mean you seem way too eager to cut her down before she's even had a chance to grow. We all mature at different rates, that she might not come into her own until she's thirty doesn't make her a bad person.

But I think we've talked this death so lets hope for a new an interesting letter next week.

Lava-
How about sending her to a CFNM party? The idea has been sexualized on all fronts since first introduced in 1991, and has been also hijacked by the porn industry to cater solely to the male fantasy side of it.

The original concept is a party of some sort run by women who are served by naked men. All rules- conduct, contact etc. are decided by the women in advance or could change on the spot.
Quite a few women of all ages who attended these said they felt empowered having served by men who kept quiet for a change and were also objectified by the women to some degree or another.

Lots of fake stuff on the internet. Maybe the closest one to the original idea is on the following site. They have some pictures that may even be authentic, what a concept, and I find those seemingly real giggly looks to be very sexy. BEAST can scroll all the way down to check out the BDSM version of the party.
http://www.geocities.ws/cfnm_party_house…

@LavaGirl: I'm hearing the same issues coming out of you Sean

Well, the same issues seem to keep reappearing in all these letters. :-)

Lost his kids because some other woman laced him up in her black widow spider's web

If I ended up crashed upon the rocks of such a diabolical siren, I'd like to think Mrs. seandr would go to her apartment, kick her ass, drag me back to our bedroom, and then give me a thorough lesson on the differences between right and wrong. A lesson I wouldn't soon forget.

Like a lot of men, I have certain weaknesses of mind. Vulnerabilities, if you will. If a femme fatal enters the picture and starts exploiting those weaknesses, I say fight fire with fire! Seems much more sensible than sitting back and judging me for them.

On the other hand, I don't think I'm nearly as high maintenance as your husband seems to have been. If I were, I'd probably say "Fuck it, let her have him."

All joking aside (and apologies in advance to anyone with traumatic experiences that make all of this not a laughing matter!), I appreciate the warnings. However, the key takeaway from this thread is that I stayed home from burning man this year to spend time with the family, and although there was some bickering* the vacation had a happy ending. Several of them, in fact.

* Even though she regularly finishes half-marathons in the top 10 for her age group, she's an extremely slow walker, which after a week in Europe rises from the level of annoyance to outright abuse. Both of my kids (as well as the divorce court, according to my attorneys) would back me on that one.

@107, @139 seandr: Wow---for the most part, it sounds like you and your family enjoyed a kickass European tour!

@106 - I certainly hope not!

"You'll never leave!"

Sean@139. And what if she doesn't?
I'm sure my husband would have liked to be between two women fighting for him. I just used the opportunity to get him out of my life.

His alienation from his children, he did that all himself.

"Like a lot of men, I have certain weaknesses of mind.." Sean.
All the more reason for men to get a bit more clued up, re the smart manipulations some women can get up to.

@139.CMD.. That idea looks like fun.

Ms Cute - Your daughter spent a year within walking distance of the Road Hole (which has a hotel; that should have been big enough for you) and still doesn't own so much as a mashie-niblick? Tragic.

And the worst of it is that Scots courses could even be played almost in a miniature fashion. In 1999, the Open Championship returned to Carnoustie, which had been removed from the rota some time earlier. On the par-4 72nd hole, Jean van de Velde, playing in the last group, needed only a score of 6 to win, but eventually scored 7 and lost in a playoff. He returned some time later to shoot a commercial and played the hole in 6 using only a putter.

@145: "She feels entitled to ask Dan and the Commenters how she should step into her sexual life."

Of course she does, Hunter. It's a fucking advice column.

Where exactly do you think you are moping about right now?

Lav @ 144
It is fun. I'm working on putting one together and will let you know in case you're in the neighborhood.
Here is a more theoretical explanation site ("Many women who engage in CFNM feel empowered because it flips the dominant male/submissive female social construct on its head, allowing women to take back power they may not necessarily have in day-to-day situations".)

http://www.thedebrief.co.uk/news/real-li…

That's cool, CMD! I know these scenarios are welcome/present at fetish parties, but nice to hear that they exist outside of the male-focused porn market.

@123 you might like miniature golf in Myrtle Beach. Seems like they go wild with the architecture.

re the Asexual Dom - it seems paradoxical to me that the LW would have the wherewithal to email Dan...but not the self awareness to understand that her desires are a bit too demanding for someone who is clueless. In my experience, people who know Dan exists are somewhat more self aware than the LW.

And msanon... i fail to see how why you are getting defensive on behalf of the LW with regard to MrVenn's opinion. Seems he is put off by her attitude... and thinks she should be cautious... lest she end up as someone who takes and never gives. You are entitled to be optimistic...same as he is entitled to be pessimistic. I'm guessing the pessimist is rarely the one admitting error in the long run. :)

And...since i am not myself gay... I will not claim any ownership of the "in the closet" phrase....but i am guessing that you would NOT be so forgiving if this LW said "i feel like i'm on a train to Auschwitz".... so i dont think its ever a good idea to pass judgement on something like this. Its in the eye of the beholder...by necessity. If MrVenn is insulted by it...that's good enough for me

Our disagreement likely comes from some connection he is making to his own experiences that do not appear to be related to anything described in the letter. So far it has not been explained beyond him bringing up how he does not want to bring it up any further, and it is not really worth pursuing as an avenue of discussion. "In the closet", for better or worse has been coopted by the mainstream, it is not at all like comparing oneself to a holocaust victim?

"it seems paradoxical to me that the LW would have the wherewithal to email Dan...but not the self awareness to understand that her desires are a bit too demanding for someone who is clueless."

Compartmentalization? There are plenty of Dan-friendly lws who are a little on the dense side, certainly many who are not very worldly or experienced and this LW has done much reading but absolutely no doing. And there are plenty of booksmart people out there who have less energy devoted to common sense.

@creativityescapesme: There are many young, slightly feminine boys who are interested in
women like her. I happen to be one of them!

No doubt.

From your perspective, are there a lot of submissive men who would be content in a long term monogamous relationship with a dom who basically doesn't want to be touched?

I realize some men develop very narrow sexual interests, but after a few months of hot sexy testicle abuse, I'd think even a submissive fella might at least want to put a hand on her boob, no?

seandr @ 154
While it may not always adhere to the "monogamous" standard, a long term relationship can also be no more than a weekly session.
It's not 24/7 or nothing anymore, something we can learn from the youngsters.

@154: "From your perspective, are there a lot of submissive men who would be content in a long term monogamous relationship with a dom who basically doesn't want to be touched? "

The LW expressed interest in interacting with boys, not getting immediately into a LTR with them. Yes, there are plenty of sissy subs who would be content to serve and clean in exchange for attention and care and who wouldn't dare touch the Dom if she didn't wish to be.

I mean, let her have her first relationship before she can figure out what she wants in the short term let alone long.

@CMD: Thanks, but I'm really just wondering whether there are guys who just want what she's offering and nothing more.

I've seen pros who advertise no-touch, no-release domination, but my assumption is that
a) many of their clients have a pair of vanilla boobs at home they can play with, so they patronize a dom to scratch a different kind of itch, or
b) these boundaries are stated to cover the pro's ass legally, and they are regularly expanded for trusted, pleasant clients

@157: My question was about men, not the LW, although one might think she'd also be interested in hearing the answer.

@159: Yes there are subs who are content with that level of interaction and often seek out/offer just that.

Ms Rand - It's the difference between her calling herself trapped and the acceptable alternative of saying she felt trapped. In addition to having to fight off attempts to zap my sexuality out of me, I was later fired from my first position for being perceptibly gay (I was still a virgin at the time), back in the days when employers could admit to such a thing with impunity. I've known others who lost a great deal more than I did when they were found out. And this little chit of a LW (a stronger word came to mind first, but not the S word, the T word) insists that she's trapped? I know, it's harsh, but at least it will counter the YGG crowd. And I assure the assembled cheerleaders that I could have been much more severe.

So, is it a bit like visiting the hairdresser once a week, this session? Can one really describe that as a relationship.. Of course one interacts and plays etc, it's just not my idea of what a relationship is.

Sean @158. Vanilla boobs? Is that some sort of racist comment. I'm sure some of the men who go to Doms have a pair of non vanilla boobs at home.

@161: I can see how it would rise your hackles. She appears to be depressed, and trapped in herself is a poor analogy for your struggle, I agree.

@163: Proclivities not race.

Glad to see you posting again, Alison.

I thought BEAST's letter was almost completely typical late bloomer... except for the sadism twist. Odd that it hasn't been mentioned by name in the comments yet, just some talk of subs and doms. Sadism. It can be very bad without safe procedures and enthusiastic consent.

There was another letter by the mother of a teenage sadist who came out to her in the last year, The Ethical Sadist. I think a few more words about safety and consent could have been given here. She seems well aware that her kink and her inexperience are not points in her favor with vanilla folks. Some more advice about rolling out varsity kinks, and a lecture on the bad form of demonizing other kinksters may have been appropriate here too. But it was also kind of nice to see Dan emphasizing the validity of her feelings, the need to own them without apology because feelings do not hurt anyone, although others may demonize them. You can still behave with consideration to others. I like seeing this sentiment addressed to women, especially after that "grow the fuck up" the other week.

Sean 158
Lava 162-3
First, correction: "It's not [only] 24/7 or nothing anymore."
Some Doms may offer a full-time live-in situation to suitable partner/s. Those partners may be selected while attending a party, or even paying clients who show enthusiasm and may want to look into the lifestyle.

I suspect our dear Dr. may regret the” vanilla boobs” comment. I believe he made an innocent reference to plain, married couple sex life. But the racial and possible dairy connotations may come to haunt him for the rest of his life.

Undead; boobs have no proclivities.

@undead: Are you speaking from (at least indirect) experience?

@Lava: Come on, you know, the kind of boobs that aren't constantly struggling to escape over the top of a black corset.

It was a joke undead.

That chick looks scary Sean. And those boobs are fake, not vanilla.

Or rather those boobs look fake rather than non vanilla.

@169: Yes, I've witnessed the offers.

Of course they are real, skin and I'm guessing some stuff is left inside that is working, the real stuff shares a space with a bag of something, though.
A big bag of something.

seandr- I was offered an "exploratory fast track" to a live-in situation after one session and some preceding correspondence. It's not for everyone, myself included.

I thought of mentioning the sadism Philo. Then I realized that it would run counter to my argument re the LW finding the person inside of her partners.
I got confused. So I left that word out.

@Lava: boobs have no proclivities.

Some of the larger ones seem to have a mind of their own.

@CMD - That's an intriguing offer. Sounds like you have some talent.

Damn, I post a lot when I have things to procrastinate.

Dr. @ 177
I did ok though I suspect my professional skills were mostly sought of, assuming at no cost...

CMD revealed: initials of a gorgeous woman who used to run a beautiful lingerie store in here awhile ago. Popped into my mind and tickled my fancy as I was looking for a screen name.

and what were you hunting back then?

BEAST reminds me of someone I know. With a slight change to a demographic detail or two, for all I know I might actually know her.

Part of my uncertainty about whether I actually know her is that she doesn't really get close or open up to people.

I hope she can someday for her own sake. There's no telling how good that could be for her. I feel sad for her. And for me.

@72 " I'd love to know this woman's story"

Ditto and I wish I could know the story of the woman I (guess I have to admit I just sorta) know. Sigh.