Savage Love

Minds Blown


... über-hetero buddies.
Whatever the hell that means.
1) what you desire, 2) what you do, 3) how you identify. Speaking for myself, I'd be hesitant to call the Marine gay, and I certainly wouldn't maintain that he was asleep while giving a blowjob.

Perhaps being gay makes my perspective irrelevant. but I feel that BLOWN is making this whole thing a bigger deal than it actually is. I do think that the unauthorized blowing probably should have been more directly addressed ex post facto, but I can see where BLOWN might not have wanted to press the issue given the potential for provoking a physical attack; still, unsolicited blowjob isn't cool -- even if the porn fantasy says BLOWN pops a load before the awkward part begins.
Ladies, gentlemen, and everyone in between:
Can we all agree that last week gave us a wonderful opportunity to discuss all vaginal environmental issues in a thorough, thoughtful, considerate, constructive, meaningful manner and that this week we may branch out to other issues?
I think Dan could have thrown in Rachel's music video.
No questions re smelly or faulty penis problems Dan? Maybe next week. And the week after. Just to keep it fair.
It's ok Lava, you can say "stinky dick."
I think über-hetero means "so straight you're gay," right?
But I was trying to be sensitive, CMD.
LW2, you said nothing to this guy?
The only thing that disturbed you was His gargling?
And you enjoyed his firm mouth around your cock... Mmm; all these yrs later, when you happy in your sex life, you think to write to Dan about it.
LavaGirl - He says he wasn't traumatized, and that's all to the good, but he was sexually assaulted; I don't think it's surprising that it is something he still thinks about.
My take on the first letter is, this woman's son is an insensitive jerk. Why would he find it necessary to tell his mom about the poly-relationship he & his wife have been having? What purpose did it serve? Shouldn't he have kept that info to himself? Didn't he realize telling her about it would upset & confuse her? I think if I were her, those are the questions I would have asked him!
Aurora @7: Yup. This guy was subjected to sexual activity he couldn't consent to because he was asleep -- and, worse, sexual activity which his friend must have had reason to believe he wouldn't have consented to had he been awake (you know, because they're both "straight"). BLOWN was sexually assaulted, otherwise known as raped.
Wayne @8: Maybe SM's son has simply always enjoyed a close relationship with his mother, and wanted to be able to talk to her about his life without feeling like he had to unnecessarily edit out parts that he thought she might be uncomfortable with. I mean, once you move out, you don't need to lie to your parents anymore about what you did at the weekend, right? Perhaps he just wanted to be able to discuss his life without having to say "our, ahem, friend" instead of "girlfriend."

I've come out to my mother as poly, because we have a close relationship that has always included discussing my love life (my sex life is my business). So now that I am emotionally involved with not one but two people, why should I have to hide this? I'm not ashamed. And surprisingly, she took it quite well -- given that she's pretty conservative. Hopefully SM will also see there's nothing in her son's love life that should make her "sad."
Ms Lava - Not that I did more than skim most of the posts as Holmes-Sun-Earth (HSE in future), but it appeared that most of the women enjoyed the topic of conversation and would gladly extend it for a month. I don't blame them; like Louisa Musgrove armed with the idea of merit in maintaining her own way, if anything they're being deemed virtuous. I certainly envy the invulnerability (on other topics as well as this) - were I to be a quarter so open as a lot of the people here, there are at least half a dozen posters who would take down that evidence, cite it against me at trial, and use it derisively to drive me away.
Mr Wayne - There were some fun possibilities with L1, but LW's DIL showed up in the thread when it was a daily letter and took all the air out of the balloon.
+ 1 for what 7 & 9 said. This guy wasn't asleep, he was wide awake and assaulted his bedmate.
Or...this is a fake letter written by a 'straight man' longing for a midnight blowjob from a marine.
The second letter, weirdly, recalls to me so many of the comments one sees concerning articles or videos about instances of F>M rape (generally of the statutory variety) along the lines of, "Why couldn't a woman like this have raped me when I was 14?" that do nothing to advance the conversation but just mark that the dudebro commenting is Straight-Straight-Straighty-McStraight (as if he wouldn't have been dropped from Team Homo at first cut during tryouts). It's gotten to the point that even some MRAs who generally think that male heterosexuality is under attack are complaining about such comments.
Venn @11: This is my only online space where I am anonymous. I really enjoy being able to share TMI in such a forum where no one knows who I am!

On that topic, I just have to share this amusing story:

Lefty Problems
I'm a liberal living in England. Last night, I spent some time on Facebook and then retired to bed. Decided to have a wank. All was going well when suddenly my subconscious throws up the image of new Labour Party leader JEREMY CORBYN! He's the person I most admire in the world right now, but I do not fancy him. So this was rather a disturbing invasion of my fantasies. And, of course, just like not thinking of a black cat, from there on out every few moments it was "Don't think of Jeremy Corbyn... DAMMIT!"
No more political news before bed for me! :)
From my totally unscientific survey of men I've slept with, I don't think sexsomnia is as rare as all that. Two out of three (although none of the girls I've slept with)? And when it happens it is almost exactly like the letter writer describes, where I shake them awake and they're a little startled. I really like it when my boyfriend wakes me up in the night for sex, so it isn't a problem for me, but he hates the loss of control and feels like he's assaulting me. I never got a chance to ready talk to the other guy since he was just a fuckbuddy, but I got the impression that he was just as unhappy with it. For the record, if I'm too tired or whatever it's pretty easy to redirect their hands into cuddling and they don't wake up when I do that.
BiDanFan @ 16
So what was Mr. Corbyn wearing, if any?
I once saw Margaret Thatcher in a tight latex suit (at the same club where you've met the that transwoman.)
Nowadays I envision Angela Merkel in her dungeon, attempting to put those Greek servants to work.

Corbyn's election is presented here as David Cameron's wet dream come true. "It was a fluke and he is so far to the left and stands no chance in the general election."

Your take?
@8: Another reason to tell is so that when mom sees him around town snogging one of his poly-mates she won't have a stroke.
CMD @18: Oh yes, Corbyn is so "unelectable" he got 59.5% of the vote in a four-way leadership election and has brought more than 30,000 new members to the Labour Party. If Cameron's got nothing to worry about, why did he waste no time in painting Corbyn as "a threat to national security, our economic security and your family's security"? Cameron is scared and rightly so. Corbyn's tapped into a huge well of anger at the right wing policies that have struck hardest at the most vulnerable whilst enriching the top 1%. Labour hasn't had a credible leader in a decade, and the left hasn't had anyone to speak for them in far longer than that. Besides, regardless of his politics, Corbyn is that rare politician with principles who speaks his true beliefs and offers substance over style. I think he has a real chance of galvanising support with working class voters who are sick of the status quo.

Out of curiosity, where is "here" for you?

Fortunately, my subconscious presented an image only of Mr Corbyn's kindly bearded face. Any more would have killed my boner completely. :)
@17 - obieanon - could you elaborate on that? you mean 2 out of your 3 boyfriends would go down on you while you were sleeping? and lead you to believe they were also sleeping? I'm fascinated by your comment.... if you wouldn't mind explaining it further...
@1 absurdist - "I feel that BLOWN is making this whole thing a bigger deal than it actually is"

i don't think it's anyone else's place but the LW's to decide how big of a violation it was... as written... it's a huge violation in my book. If we change the sex of the LW to a woman... people would likely be telling her to press charges (or at least consider it). If the LW has largely compartmentalized it and feels he suffers no ill effects... then that is his decision to make...but saying he is "making this whole thing a bigger deal than it actually is" seems a little too condescending from the cheapseats.
Venn @12: Thanks, I was away and missed the original. Am pleased to read that DIL's comment reads almost exactly like mine.
For anyone else who may have missed it:…
BiDanFan @16: the exact same thing happened to me recently!
Venn- care to elaborate on "bisupremacists?" Not an argument or anything, just interested in what you have to say.

BiDan @ Jeremy Corbyn
Here is the USA where even some more (at least seemingly) liberal outlets like the NY Times or Huffington have said similar things.

You mentioned him attracting young voters which is important on different levels. How is he doing with minority voters, which I assume are mostly of Indian and Pakistani descent, and how likely is this if any to shape future UK politics?
As I see it I also suspect the Scots decision to stay helped push Labour to the left.
Your input is still welcome.
I had a boyfriend long ago who occasionally engaged in some sort of sleep-sex behavior. I didn't know what it was at first and just thought he had woken up in the night and was (to no objections from me!) waking me up by fondling, fingering, etc. But I finally figured out (by his complete surprise when he woke up, and completely honest lack of knowledge of what was going on) that he was doing it in his sleep.

I don't know on the LW's marine. I could easily believe it either way. That shit does happen.
A common side effect of long-term SSRI use is that the scent and amount of sweat can change to be offensive and copious.

Oh boy...I think this may explain a past experience. I am not nor ever have been on SSRIs but I dated someone who may well have been (and kept it a secret). She didn't seem like a particularly funk-inclined person but she was.
@9fan. Yes. He was sexually abused, raped, and has no other reaction( in hindsight), than that he was upset the man gargled.
Very strange take he has on it all.
Wow--sexomnia! Thanks again, Dan, BLOWN, and everybody---I really do learn something new every week from Savage Love. I do agree with @7 LavaGirl and @9 BiDanFan: if BLOWN's hetero roomie was fully awake when the LW got the unexpected blowjob, that's rape--and not anything BLOWN had actually consented to. I'm not sure I'd call that sexomnia.

SP---thank you, too, for you recommendations on further eliminating vaginal odors in response to WHIFFED. Question #1: What is "SSRI use"? I have a tub with an overhead shower faucet (not a detachable shower wand), and regularly use both.
Dan & everybody, Question #2: Can 14 years of otherwise happy sexual inactivity possibly cause vaginal odors? Nobody else around me complains about any smell; maybe I'm just thinking too much out loud again online.
@11. Venn. Did the women enjoy the discussion, I sure didn't. Extend it for a month?
Just an honest bunch of female posters, trying to keep it real.
@29: Oops--I stand corrected. I meant WHIFFING, not WHIFFED.
Ms Lava - You ought at least to have enjoyed there being a topic on which I couldn't possibly have anything to say. I wouldn't grudge anyone's enjoying that (and give a pass to Ms Knows-who-she-is).

It strikes me as perfectly natural to enjoy a conversation in which not only can one speak with great authority and impunity but one happens to be part of the in group when outsiders pretending to the mantle of decent human beings must venture with enormous trepidation and care to make any contribution at all.

If you didn't enjoy the conversation, then at least I hope you might have some interesting reflections on Louisa Musgrove.
Mx Wanna - Now, I don't mind a reasonable amount of home team favouritism, but there's a point at which it goes too far. It's the sort of thing that one recognizes when one sees it, but can't always pinpoint exactly where the line was crossed. One fairly clear example was someone I met once who expected others to agree with the superiourity of and to envy his women-in-box-A, men-in-box-B lifestyle.
My ignorance Venn. And Louise Musgrave is? She a regular on SL? Then yeah, I'll chew the fat with her.
Venn. If others tried to drive you away if you spoke your unbridled truth, then the Venn Support Posse would be on their case.
There was No satisfaction for me in comments going on for so so long about women's hygiene.
And it's just so damn intimate.
Still, if we helped one man approach these topics with a bit more sensitivity, then us girls being so upfront was just all worth it. Blah. Blah.
for you lava.... ;)

Women's hygiene does not strike me as the kind of topic whereby a non woman should keep her mouth shut. I venture i have first hand knowledge of far more women's privates (clean and dirty) than you do lava.... (Jibe...if you are reading... resist the urge to trump me) And no worries Lava... i am most definitely not trying to pick a fight with you... i am just pointing out that you don't have to HAVE certain equipment below the belt in order to discuss it... Now...if you wished to say that this topic should be left off the dinner table agenda.... i won't argue... but... this is SL... right? :)
Chairman, I was fine with men talking about female hygiene. Hey, they talk about ever other bit of our lives. To have or not to have babies. How to even give birth to our babies. So yeah, all good.
And you know my intimacy with women, how?
Seriously. I wasn't judging
men saying their bit. Where did you get that impression.

apologies.... i misunderstood. So it simply made you uncomfortable? (only guessing at the intimacy with women thing...since i cannot recall a single time where you expressed any hints at it...)
I agree it is a bad idea to just start blowing your friend. But a felony? I see this more as a clumsy pass made by a lonely person who stopped when asked to stop. Plus, the LW isn't traumatized! Let resilient people be resilient, please.
Quick Google search reveals rape carries an average prison term of 8-9 years, plus lifetime appearance on the sex offender registry. Are people seriously maintaining that the Semper Fi-llatio perpetrator deserves this?
Venn @ 33
I have also seen and heard some self-boasting statements coming from other segments of population.
I suppose it’s what we’re sensitive to that riggers us, though I suspect that over stating yourself may be a sign of insecurity.

milkshake @ 39
I think that beyond punishment the question is accountability.
As described by the assumed victim the case may not be as serious as other rape cases, but it is still a rape.
Holding the marine accountable is likely to make him face issues he is avoiding. Letting him go may result in a more severe case in the future.
Some times, not always, people in this type of situation or similar wish they would be caught so that they can come out, ask for help, and so on.
Ms Lava - Well, at least we can add something to your reading list (Persuasion).


Mx Wanna - Sometimes, though fortunately not very often, one runs into a true believer who genuinely holds monosexuality to be a serious character flaw.
CMD--accountability is a good thing. Are these two people having a conversation? I support that.
I think you can't use the word rape and expect this not to involve punishment, starting with incarceration. It's bad behavior, and boundary-pushing for sure, but I don't see 8 years in the hoosegow for this.
I also know of two situations identical to this, both involving hippie-ish American men traveling in cultures were homosexuality is taboo. The local guys figured the Americans, even if not into it, would be able to just say, "Not my flavor," and roll over, instead of, you know, reporting them to the cops for sodomy. (Which is exactly what happened.)
Chairman, you have no idea re the adolescent game of young girls? At all girl parties, Sniff the fanny( vagina) game? Not heard of it.. Then? Maybe a cultural past time of just us Aussie girls.
And just waiting, so when Dan posts the faulty penis questions, I can return the favour of sharing my concerns and my constructive suggestions.
Don't mind me, folks--I'm just quietly enjoying reading the SL thread as usual.
@43 LavaGirl: Sniff the fanny / vagina is an adolescent game in Australia? With..blindfolds?
I swear, I must be totally clueless, socially. I've had a sheltered life.
Girl about penis-shaped squirt guns or penis pops? Fill unused (laytex, or otherwise) condoms with your favorite beverage: fruit juice / liquor / wine / beer / mocha & Kalua / etc. Set vertically inside the preset cube molds on an ice cube tray in the freezer. Take clean, unused popsicle sticks and set carefully inside each filled freezing condom before the flavored drink contents harden inside. Chill thoroughly, then carefully remove the condoms from the frozen penis pops.
O-kaaaaaaaay...I'll shut up and go back to Thelma & Louise now.
Jesus--and I haven't had anything other than coffee and water so far today.
Mr. Venn @ 32, I always enjoy the comments much more when you do have something to contribute. And while I don't often comment, I think I would express some serious outrage to anyone who tried to drive you away.
@32 vennominon (re: tachycardia's comment @46): Um......have I pissed you off lately?
Grizelda. It was just a little joke with Chairman. Hope you got some food into you? And that you are going ok..
I was surprised it took until response 14 to suggest BLOWN made the whole thing up. Clearly, he made the whole thing up. He can't even keep his story straight. Let's consider the details (few though they are.) BLOWN opens his story with the disclaimer that he's a "straight man in a good, loving marriage with no sexual issues to report," but then he says he initially thought his girlfriend was giving him a wake up blowjob. What, his WIFE doesn't give mlpwjobs? Meh. Okay, his marriage could be open and he forgot to mention that part, but I wouldn't expect him to leave out something that relationship-specific, given that he clearly doesn't want anyone to think he could ever have WANTED this gay Blowjob.

Next, he describes the blowjob as "particularly fine." I read this to say "finer than I was accustomed to from my wife—we, girlfriend." Now as a 56 year old man who's swung both ways longer than most of Dan's readers have swung at all, I can assure you that the only way skill level would be the FIRST discrepancy he noticed is if his wife/girlfriend is six feet tall, has enormous hands ( for a woman), and grows some intense morning chin and cheek stubble.
One more detail suggests there is more of lie (to excuse straying to the other side) or outright fantasy (the wife/girlfriend thing still feels like sloppy storytelling) is the end of his encounter. BLOWN says he "gradually became awake, I realized the mouth on my penis wasn't my girlfriend's." He then called out the marine's name, and the marine started awake and then went to gargle. Funny thing about cum (I know—BLOWN doesn't mention cum): most of the guys who've blown me over the years have been swallowers. The few who weren't either asked that I not cum in their mouths or—you guessed it—went to gargle and rinse afterwards. Unless BLOWN has a severe smegma problem, the best reason for gargling would be that the marine in question is not swallower. O, one other point: years ago, I used to roll over and try to fuck my first wife in my sleep. She enjoyed it, so she never tried to dissuade me (my second wife thought it was creepy and woke me every time I tried, which quickly broke me of that habit). I always woke up when the paroxysms of orgasm hit. If this midnight oral encounter happened at all, it was probably his coming in the marine's mouth that woke BLOWN.
CMD @25: Given that the US political centre is well to the right of the UK's political centre -- only our most radical right-wingers want to get rid or universal health care, for instance -- I'm not surprised to learn the moderate US press considers Corbyn very left-wing. To the left of Bernie Sanders? To me, those two candidates have many similarities. And both have drawn far more popular support than anyone expected. Tides turning? I can only hope. As for Corbyn's support among minority voters, I will say that ethnic minorities are far less important as voting blocs here than in the US, both because there are fewer of them, and because they're less likely to vote. But as Corbyn is the most pro-immigrant candidate, I imagine those who do vote will see much to appeal to them.

Griz @29: The difference between rape and sexsomnia is obviously whether the person was conscious they were doing it. It's a tricky area -- if the marine really *was* asleep, then was BLOWN not raped? Even if he was equally traumatised by the incident?

Milkshake @38: Wow. No, I'm sorry, as soon as you start performing a sex act on someone who has not consented, nor even gave them the opportunity to consent, you've committed rape. Now, does the victim want to press charges? Does every theft require a prosecution? It does not, it's the victim's choice how they want to pursue it. But if a friend walks out of my house having "borrowed" something they never intended to return, and I don't press charges, it was still theft.

Chaucer @49: Um, this incident happened years ago. Perhaps the current wife was the then-girlfriend. Or it was a different girlfriend. As for your theory that BLOWN was awoken by his orgasm, that seems possible. Doesn't disprove the rest of the allegations in his letter. If he was mostly asleep, he might well notice the sensation of mouth without also noticing hands (not necessary) or chin (does not always touch the blowee's flesh).
Lava @43: I went to many adolescent all-girl parties and "sniff the fanny" nor anything like it ever happened. I guess I missed out!

And Venn, there are weeks that go by when it's all gay BDSM or furries or other bits that I have no connection with. I'm sure Dan will get back to cock talk soon enough! :)
@50 I don't recall whether you identified your own sex. If you're male and have had multiple partners, I can't believe you never noticed the glaring differences between male and female cocksuckers. I could see the mistake of the man in question were a youth, but BLOWN made a point of identifying the blower as über-hetero (I think he may have meant hyper-masculine, because the marine is clearly a closet case. If this happened at all—and I doubt it, finding myself unable to shake the eery similarity of BLOWN's narrative to the fantasy-disguised-as-reportage that filled Xaviera Hollander's pages—IF it happened, I'd be interested in hearing the marine's side of the story. I have a feeling he would say that he thought BLOWN was flirting with him all night and that he took BKOWN's recommendation that the pair of them share a bed (no, BLOWN never says this happened, I'm interpolating a bit. In addition to the Happy Hooker reminiscences this letter triggered, it also reminds me a bit of the Onion article, "Why Do All These Gay Men Keep Trying to Have Sex With Me?"
Ms Grizelda - Not at all; that was not a reference to you. I'll say more about that post another time.


Ms Fan - It wasn't a complaint. After all, I have no connection with a great majority of the column regardless of F/M direction; if anything, it was refreshing not to have to try to think of anything to say. (Bad luck about not being able to dismiss from mind your new Labour leader at the wrong moment.)


While I appreciate the kind words, it only takes two or three ill-wishers to poison a good barrel. Some of you may remember my troll with the copycat name, whose posts at first might have been flattering if they'd been a little better crafted. Before long, people were taking the spoof posts as my real sentiments and engaging them in apparent good faith. When even Ms Cute was fooled and started responding, I'd have been gone in another week if the joker hadn't confessed to humourous intent and desisted.
Ms Fan @50 - Genuine sexsomnia would seem a case of rape without a rapist.
BiDanFan--I keep responding to the people calling it rape with the same question, and not getting an answer. Is 8 years in prison and a lifetime on the sex offender registry a punishment that fits this crime? Because that is the punishment for rape. That does not seem commensurate at all to me.

What do you think his punishment should be?
Re BLOWN the comparison to Blown's home-style blowjob (do married men even have that kind of sex/) made me question that the letter is fake, then I re-read it and noticed the "wife-to-girlfriend" switch. This letter -writer is a fake.
Re @55 the "gay Marine" must wear a sweater labeled "Uber-Hetero" for 120 days.
milkshake @ 55
I'm not the judge and the case may be more complicated than- for lack of a better terminology- "a classic straightforward rape."
All I'm saying is that handing the case to the judiciary system may force all involved to deal with the actions and the consequences.
Your assumed punishment or the one you're soliciting from us commenters ("eight years or best offer") is irrelevant to the argument.
Chaucer @52
It was Why Do All These Homosexuals Keep Sucking My Cock?…
@55 milkshake, you're fairly obviously not a lawyer, please stop pretending to be one on the internet.

Your "quick google search" figures are exactly what you describe them as, an AVERAGE range of punishment. Where did you get the idea that the average is an automatic sentence for every instance of rape? That is not what the word "average" means...

There is no jurisdiction in this country with absolute sentencing. There's always a range of punishment, usually ranging from probation for first time offenders to higher ranges for repeat offenders or more serious instances of the crime. That range is there to account for the different situations that can all be included in one criminal offense described in the law, to give the court the power to give a sentence that fits the particular situation at hand.

The more important question, which you seem quite happy to ignore, is the definition of rape/sexual assault. In this particular case, do you think BLOWN consented to the contact? And if he didn't consent to the contact, what would you call what happened? When non-consensual sexual contact happens, what name do you want to give it? Do you think non-consensual sexual conduct shouldn't be a crime?
Dear Penthouse Forum,

Boy o boy I thought I would never be writing to you a second time, but here we go again! Last weekend, on a golfing getaway with my best friends and our wives, there was a little mix-up with the reservations and we had to share some rooms. I know this would have put some guys off, but I have always felt comfortable in my sexuality, even with Jeff, a 6'3 rugged ex- Marine and also my workout partner. Even the countless times we have showered together I never considered that Jeff was thinking about my cock, even though I am the only one in my group who is uncircumcised. Anyway, after a hot day on the fairway...
@60.... hahaha. You're a natural....

@milkshake - calling something by definition (rape...or theft in BiDanFans easy to follow analogy) does not mean that the perp gets reported...convicted...sentenced. I thought the theft analogy BiD made was clear enough.... perhaps re-read that.
Moderators - can you perhaps beg your web developers to add the syntax "makes $" to an auto-blocked list so these ridiculous spam posts will go away for awhile?
@50: "Does every theft require a prosecution? It does not, it's the victim's choice how they want to pursue it."

FWIW, that's not completely correct. There's a reason that criminal charges are "The State of [State] V. [Defendand]," not "Victim V. Defendant." Law enforcement doesn't actually require the participation of the victim, even if it sometimes means they won't bother putting the resources into an investigation if the primary witness isn't going to cooperate.

Broad criminal statutes which will be ignored most of the time have been tried, often, and they've generally worked out terribly--they're not, in practice, any different from just declaring that a cop gets to do whatever to whoever. "You can drive over the speed limit, provided the nearest cop thinks you look sufficiently white" isn't a good de facto law.
Some throwaway--this level of nonconsensual contact could be addressed as a misdemeanor. Theft works as an analogy because many levels of theft exist: petty theft, burglary, breaking and entering, armed robbery.

The punishment for a felony is absolutely relevant when one is accusing someone of a felony. I'm not assuaged that he wouldn't be prosecuted/convicted/sentenced, especially not in these days of prosecutorial zeal and mandatory minimum sentences.

Most commenters do not seem to be advocating for punishment, which suggests that they also don't truly support the accusation of rape, except for someone (CMD?) who thinks this is a cry for help. Considering the level of lifelong employment discrimination against convicted felons, that would be one loud cry indeed.
@64 - Eud... i am certainly no lawyer... but i believe that every THEFT does require charges being pressed... and that your post is more pertinent to other crimes that do not.
Milkshake @65: Ah, how good it is that someone is here to advocate for the rights of the poor mistreated rapists. As has already been discussed, there are minimum and maximum sentencing levels available to judges. Not to mention that only 4.5% of rape cases result in a conviction. So I think your sympathy towards the rapists of this world is a little bit misplaced.

As Eudaemonic says, the victim's participation is not necessary for a conviction; but how would the police even know about a crime like this unless the victim reported it?

As for what I think is suitable punishment, I am not the victim, nor can I make a judgment as to whether or not Marine was asleep, so I can't speak to what I would consider justice. Exposure and embarrassment in front of all his uber-hetero friends, perhaps? Sometimes punishments that actually fit the crime are more apt.
Chaucer @52: I am the owner of a penis ... which mostly lives in my naughty drawer. That said, I have in fact observed that men can deep-throat, if not better than women can, certainly better than I can. So I wouldn't doubt that there are on-the-whole differences between the sexes.

However, if a person were three-quarters asleep, I can believe their ability to make such differentiations may be a bit compromised, wouldn't you think?

I've been three-quarters asleep and snogged someone who wasn't the person I was dreaming I was snogging. Came as quite a shock when that three-quarters proportion reduced to about half, and I realised whose lips were actually on the other end of mine.
Milkshake @65
I think you're missing few key points and also misrepresenting some of mine.
Due to limited internet access and time at work I'll get back to you with a more detailed response later on
I just loved "could have easily pummeled me to death out of embarrassment." Right, because that's a typical response to feeling embarrassed and happens all the time inside condos full of witnesses. That and the taking time to assess a "damn fine" blowjob before calling the guy's name... hey, I like a good Penthouse Forum story as much as the next person, but I gotta call bullshit. @60 has it right.
Yes, US politics is indeed messed up and often differences between the parties are no more than nuances.
The game is always played to tunes composed by corporations and certain industries like oil, arms, and finance.
The shallow, commercial-driven media tends to sensationalize events while keeping the public largely misinformed.

Sorry Lava- not much knowledge of Australian politics. Please do keep us informed though
@60, and? This story sounds like it could have much more juice in it.
@9: I'm going to disagree that "sexually assaulted" is "otherwise known as raped". Where I live, in Canada, "sexually assaulted" is a legal term with a precise legal definition while "raped" is a colloquial term with no legal meaning. More importantly, the current legal definition of "sexual assault" is far more broad than any of the legal definitions of "rape" back when "rape" had a legal meaning. Furthermore, "rape" has strong connotations: e.g. it used to have the euphemism "a fate worse than death". So I find a blanket definition of "sexual assault" as the same thing as "rape", with all the connotations of "rape", extremely melodramatic, and unhelpful to thinking rationally about what happened.
Even if blow job guy's letter is a fake, one can still respond to the issues as raised.
After all these yrs, and that it is still an issue he remembers enough to write to Dan about it, maybe he could find this guy, and ask him what was going on. I'd like to know as well.
Was he asleep etc.
CMD, well. Australian politics is full of Middle aged and older white men talking about everything else but what really really matters. Like climate change. Like one or two or three women a week being killed by their male partners or ex partners. Like we have sun shining on us most of the year, and wouldn't it be prudent to assist everyone with a loan for solar panels so we could stop our reliance on coal.
Our new PM is a very rich man, I can't imagine he's really going to bother with the rest of us. He's just not Abbott. Same rich serving attitudes though.
Lava @74: "Even if blow job guy's letter is a fake, one can still respond to the issues as raised." Yes! I was thinking this too, even if the letter is fake the situation is entirely possible, and the discussion has been enlightening.

Old Crow @73 makes a good point. Oddly, I agree with milkshake that the penalties for sexual assault -- whether colloquially referred to as rape or not, the definition is the same, sexual activity without consent -- may have the unintentional effect of putting jurors off convicting someone even if it's clear they did subject a victim to sexual activity without their consent. Ironically, when I once suggested a misdemeanour charge of sexual assault might be helpful in raising that pitiful 4.5% conviction rate, I was jumped on for "sounding like Todd Akin" and minimising how awful rape can be. So not true. Currently, the overwhelming majority of rape victims -- even those few who are brave and/or angry enough to press charges -- don't get any justice at all. Open to ideas for improving the situation.
CMD @71: And that's why Corbyn has had such a wave of support. He's NOT your standard sold-out politician. He stands out from the crowd as someone you can trust and who genuinely wants to help people. I was speaking to a business associate today who has always voted Conservative but is now swept up in Corbyn mania and intends to vote for him. That's strengthened my belief that he has appeal broad enough to win a general election.
Now, how can we force an election before 2020? :/

Lava @75: Sorry to hear your country's got crap leadership too.
Dan, I won't rest until the Catholic Church allows you to become a priest.
I thought the reason BLOWN mentioned his girlfriend instead of his wife was the opening phrase of the letter: "Many years ago..."

In other words, he's married now, but the incident occurred before he was married.
Many years ago.... in a galaxy far far away.... Han Somnia woke Luke Biwalker with an unexpected.... shoot...i'm no good at this... where's Bloomer?
@48 LavaGirl: Thank you and bless you, Lava, for your concern. Things are indeed, a little crazy for me right now. I read today in a horoscope that Mercury is in retrograde for my sign (Leo) for the next three weeks, and regarding Mercury retrograde, a friend of mine says, "Ohhh, FUCK!" So that can't be good.
The following please-God-don't-get-worse! situations and contributing factors are happening in my life right now (please forgive my unloading of what feels like a novel--all those who want to skip reading all this can go to the next comment in the SL thread):
1) While I have made an appointment to see a veteran's employment counselor downtown next week about additional employment to avoid tapping my savings, I am hesitant about talking to the regional Small Business Administration head honcho there (another guy) about my website and sole proprietorship and how to earn more money with it; he wasn't helpful at all the last time I met with him three years ago;
2) While I have gathered helpful online / on the phone feedback from the professors at my local university and clerks at the campus bookstore about textbook requirements to use for tutoring purposes in music theory, the only books available are a) not in stock, and b) $165-$175 new apiece (used copies are currently unavailable), and c) only the hardcover textbook copies are acceptable by the professors (not the cheaper spiral-bound version, that IS currently available, and I'm guessing, in abundance);
3) When I went to see my amazing naturopath for a six-month follow up appointment and results of my a) afternoon and b) AM fast blood test results from these last two days, she went nuts about my blood sugar level. Fortunately, it's not at the disastrous 'congratulations, you're in heart attack country' it was two years and eight months ago, but the lovely GF cookies and quite possibly the GF tiramisu I have been enjoying with organic berries I cannot have anymore.
I guess not all that is gluten free is healthy for me. So, while I haven't gained weight, I still have to be careful. I am eating more healthily than I ever did in my 20s and 30s, but I feel like I'm blindly grasping for straws---another doctor's consultation fee later billed to my insurance company. I won't be able to afford to keep seeing my amazing naturopath without an income.
4) I am really frustrated that everywhere I go I have to spend money to get something done or anywhere closer to getting a job in my field. Everyone else around me is gaining right now;
5) My rent and bills are getting paid for now, but I don't want to fall into debt, wipe myself out, or get taxed up my ass. I will NOT turn to my older sibs for any help (you, Dan, and everyone else on SL knows why--it's not worth their hassle). I can't last much longer without earnings to balance everything out, and it seems like there's nothing but bureaucratic Republican red tape everywhere I turn these days, and
6) My flute choir, while expanding, is suddenly in need of a new place to practice (long story with the private school; in summary, the communication is very poor), and while my flute choir directors hemmed and hawed until finally paying me after a whole year for copies of my own composed music, are demanding prompt payment for annual choir dues by next week. Our flute choir director said he'd "look" at my latest score.

So, as to my health, I am slowing finishing off the taboo GF cookies one at a time, and maybe savoring my last GF tiramisu, making some homemade red potato salad to go with bunless cheeseburgers, and planning to do some computer work on pdf file entries on my second symphony. Then I'm going outside to star (and moon, if it's out) gaze, and quietly sit in my beloved car to meditate, share a hug, stare up at the night sky and ask my equally beloved parents, "Mom, Dad, what would you do?"
I bought USPS postage stamps, paid bills, bought a 60th birthday card and an inspirational magnet for my older sister and sent them USPS, and made a small contribution to a senator where I live who's got a nasty big name Republican challenger, obviously backed by a lot of outside money.
Jesus wept----in my haste to avoid becoming a neo-maxi-zoom-dingbat like my oldest sister, I believe I still did, anyway; only a decade younger.
Auntie Griz, I hope things ease up.
We're all pulling for you.
@50 BiDanFan: I agree; that's the point I was trying to make, too.
@53 vennominon: Thank you for the clarification. I'm sorry to hear that some odious, pirating troll shamefully impersonated you on SL!
@56 sb53: Thank you, too, for catching that telling detail that I missed (D'OH!) about BLOWN's letter, and BLOWN: fool me once with a fake letter, shame on me; fool me twice, shame on you.
@60 kylecheez: LOL! Thanks--I really needed a good laugh. I nominate you for winning this week's thread. Kudos, sir.
@83 nocutename: Thank you and bless you! You're in my heartfelt thoughts and prayers, too.
Big hugs coming right back atcha with VW beeps.

milkshake @ 65
I liked the “one loud cry indeed” punch line and how you tied it to “cry for help” earlier in that paragraph, but I don’t think it works with what I tried to tell you all along.
Let me try again…
I’m for not letting sex offenders get away with their acts, not necessarily roll them in tar and feathers.
I say so because it is my observation that those who do get away with different acts are likely to repeat. As things progress those next acts may some times, not always, turn more daring.

If and when that happens and they do get caught some offenders may tell you almost right away they wish they had been caught a while ago. It would have forced them to face their own issues, whatever they may be. Many realize their punishment could have been much harsher if they were caught only few years later, knowing the direction this behavior takes them.

Being held accountable may also mean telling the friends the next morning, when you know the mighty marine is not likely to jump on you (though admittedly it may take some time to process what had happened.)

And finally answering your question: eight years in jail and lifelong employment discrimination is not the only option and shouldn’t be.
If the laws where you live seem too harsh please work to change them by educating people and influence the legislation.
Sex crimes of all nature make the news and politicians tend to be “tough on crime.”
Add this to the prison industry we have here in the US, which I think you have touched on yourself and something I should have also mentioned to…

BiDanFan- are you there?

… and you get a real or imagined campaign to keep the rooms full.

I’d like this to be my last loud cry in your direction regarding this issue- hey, we tried, it didn’t work, let’s move on- but since I just had the chance to perform my very own grand finale on the subject it would be fair to leave the stage for you.
Rest assured, I’ll read it.
@65 milkshake: sb53 (@56) aptly pointed out that BLOWN's letter had to be fake regarding his flip-flopping mention of blowjobs with his wife--no,, ...girlfriend? That made me rethink the possibility of rape earlier (Sorry, BiDanFan @9; after a more thorough reread of BLOWN's letter, [the LW] does sound like he's closeted) and kylecheez (@60) scored a direct bullseye.
Dan, does BLOWN's letter officially make it to the HTH Hall of Fame?
My all-time HTH favorite is the 200 Percent Straight Guy.
Ms Grizelda - So sorry for all your trials, perhaps most of all the dietary ones, as it can certainly be devastating when what seemed a really good solution to a problem goes sour. You might enjoy reading Mr Wilde's story "Lord Arthur Savile's Crime".

The copycat, to be fair, didn't appear to have malicious intentions. But many thanks for the kind thought.
Some Throwaway, I'm not sure what country you are referring to when you state that "no jurisdiction in this country has absolute sentencing" but here in the U.S., as another poster already mentioned, we do indeed have minimum mandatory sentencing. This means that a conviction automatically results in a sentence of x years, although the judge may, at his discretion, add more time. A person sentenced under this type of legislation, at least in the State of Florida, doesn't get time off for good behavior and is not eligible for parole. There is no room for the jury to consider extenuating circumstances, like the accused being unaware of their actions at the time, and one is left hoping that the jury is smart enough to understand the legal requirements of the charge and not just the colloquial term, and not fall for the notion perpetuated by the prosecution that if the person committed x action they are guilty of y charge. I am not an attorney and I do not pretend to be one on the internet, by I have sat in the courtroom and witnessed this carried out with a member of my family who is now serving a 25 year sentence while others involved got away with it.
grizelda @29, You asked: "Question #1: What is SSRI use"

SSRIs (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors) are a class of antidepressants. There are scads of different drugs in this category and they are very widely prescribed. Besides the problem the letter writer brings to light, they commonly cause many other types of sexual dysfunction as well.

Don't know the answer to your question #2.

Chairman @80: no, no, you were doing great! The image was so vivid! Don't make us wait for the movie.
BLOWN's letter sounded fake to me too.
CMD @86: I'm here. Had you read my comment @76 before writing yours?

Tachy @89: Thank you for your example. In light of this, yes, I agree the system is broken. The overwhelming majority of rape/sexual assault victims are getting no justice at all, while the tiny minority of rapists who do get convicted are facing mandatory minimums that mean they are serving more time than they deserve. Is it any wonder only the most violent, repeat rapists end up being fully prosecuted? A change to the law is necessary.
Grizelda, re 1), if the small business guy is still of no help.. Might as well try you think?.. Then go find someone else to help with your website. Good avenue to get your work etc out there. Don't let some slacker put you off.
2) professors telling you only hard cover books are acceptable? Bit pushy.
If you have savings, good on you for keeping a back up in place. Hope some work happens for you..
And star gazing is Free. Aren't we lucky some multi national can't
charge us for that.
Grizelda, like your idea for the blind folds re the fanny smelling girls party, and you'd have to guess whose fanny it was!

Sad Mama, My children concern me often. Their choices. Their pain. It's a bums rap, being a Mother. One has to constantly be stepping back, yet , if they allow , to just suggest this here or there, as skilfully as possible.. So one doesn't set them off.
Even after all these years, I don't know what the hell I'm doing with my kids most of the time, because it's always changing.
They are all bar one, adults. And like other adults, they have choices and the consequences of those choices. And if one has been a solid and half sane Mother to them, then one has to trust they have enough wisdom to go on with.
If your son has given you the
" I know better routine", just nod your head and say,
" yes honey. ".. All kids know better than their parents. Till they don't.
And just watch that he is happy.

CMD; a couple of other pressing concerns re Australian politics. To treat the Refugees in our care with humanity and to work harder to strengthen our Aborigines.

BiDanFan @ 92
Yes I've read it and unfortunately agree, just wanted to make sure I got your attention since @86 was written for someone else.
It will be interesting to see if Corbyn gets to implement any of his policies. There were lots of expectations from Obama that didn't materialize, though those were mostly in the minds of the hopers. ("Hopees?") I still think some of Obama's achievements are indeed substantial.

Lave @ 94
It's depressing to see the same crap all over the world.

Relaxing, kinky weekend to all!
@BiDanFan: sexual activity which his friend must have had reason to believe he wouldn't have consented to had he been awake

Sometimes people intitiate sex in their sleep. I've probably done it half a dozen times. When it happens, I'm not fully asleep, but nor am I awake. I feel utterly consumed with sexual desire for the person sleeping next to me in a way I've never felt while I'm awake. It's like my neocortex has been shut down leaving my caveman brain to do all the thinking. The feeling of uninhibited desire is actually quite wonderful.

I've always woken up, sometimes on my own but usually by my partner, before things got past the kissing/petting phase, and as soon as I awake, the feeling slips away like a dream, and I just want to go back to sleep.

BLOWN was sexually assaulted, otherwise known as raped.

I guess that's one way to look at it. The feedback I've gotten from my partners was that it was "sweet" and "funny" and "cute" to see me in this state, even though they hadn't actually consented to me taking their ass firmly in hand and kissing their lips and face and neck and ears and caressing their breasts and pussy as if there were the nothing else in the world that mattered.

Anyway, my reading of this letter is that one member of this "uber heterosexual" group is actually a closeted gay who outed himself in his sleep.
Just with regard to the issue of whether this is legally rape, I did a quick google.…
If you're skeptical of the sexsomnia like I am, it's pretty clearly Sexual Assault as described in (b)(2) of the link. It didn't seem to bother the victim too much, and this type of crime can't and won't be prosecuted without a complaint from the victim. However, the Marine is playing with fire. When he tries this BS with a hetero-identified, near-stranger who wakes up horrified and furious about the experience, he absolutely could be charged and convicted of sexual assault, and rightfully so.
I take one thing back. I re-read the letter and they weren't near-strangers, but I still stand by the gist of the post.
Perhaps you got that feedback from your partners because they were your partners.
Some people seem to be confused about the difference between rape and sexual assault. Rape is a form of sexual assault. Sexual assault includes all unwanted and offensive sexual contact. Rape is only forcible penetration. The damages of rape include the damages of simple sexual assault, but also internal bruising/tearing, possibility of STI transmission, and possibility of pregnancy. These consequences can be greatly life altering. Internal trauma may require surgery, and STI's and pregnancy can be directly life threatening. Unwanted pregnancy can be sanity threatening as well, people have stronger morals about the treatment of children than sex in general I think. I believe that much of current law is unfair because it doesn't treat the damages of sexual assaults separately enough. Standardized levels of simple and aggravated assault would be welcome on a federal level. I'd like to see progressively severe penalties for severe coercion (drugging/battery/deadly weapon), internal trauma, possibility of disease transmission, possibility of pregnancy, and reckless creation of children.

This guy was assaulted if he was offended by the sexual part of the act as well as the gargling... this is somewhat unclear from the letter. The marine may have been asleep and thus not responsible for his decisions, similar to insanity defense, but LW's reasonable expectations about sex were violated, and he is dealing with the effects of this. I agree with those who've encouraged conversation about the incident. I agree that this behavior can grow more dangerous if left unaddressed.
@88 vennominon: Bless you. I'll look into "Lord Arthur Savile's Crime".
Yeah----humbling to discover that GF isn't exactly sugar-free; and just because it's organic cane sugar, it's still sugar....*sigh* And just when I was so thrilled to enjoy GF cookies and GF tiramisu from the local co-op.
Please wish me luck on finding more music-related employment.
@90 gonzo: Thank you for further clarifying the SSRI abbreviation (re @29).
No worries on Question #2; reading too deeply into things ('OMG--is that me, too??') is among my worst faults. What I once had as a health issue no longer seems to exist now, but I guess it's good to be conscientious.
@93 & @94 LavaGirl: Thank you, Lava. I agree; but will know more by Monday when the college bookstore and music library are open, and when I have my employment meeting next Thursday with the one guy. I may very likely need to seek out a different SB adviser (other than Mr. No Help At All Concerning Job Interviews from 3 years ago; the fact that he now covers 4 counties regionally, including mine is a bad joke to women with small businesses).
Why do I feel like such a hopeless scatterbrain lately? Is that Mr. No Help's (and those of his ilk) angle?
By the way, what did you think of the penis pop idea? I admit I've never actually tried this, but it sounds fun.
Condoms have always seemed a part of sex interference to me, Grizelda. I'm just not sure I ever want to see one again.
There's your answer. Maybe find a woman to help you re your web site?

Sean, thanks for that description, great your co bed users didn't take offense. They were as Van@90 pointed out, your partners.
This incident has erotized this guy, I pick up. He isn't upset or feeling violated, but it is still on his mind. He enjoyed that man's mouth on his cock.
He was quick to point out how his sex life has no issues.. Yet here he is, bringing up yrs later an incident which he sort of enjoyed, and it was a homosexual experience.
Looking at it this way, I'd suggest he incorporate gay erotic images into his masturbation fantasies.