Columns Nov 25, 2015 at 4:00 am

Fresh Air

Comments

1
The Wronged Party: Who is this shitty bud you have? I can think of scenarios where cheating is acceptable-- Dan furnished one in this column. But I can't think of any scenario where fucking your buddy's significant other is OK without that buddy's blessing. That dude is an asshole, and you'd do well to get ride of him.

And dump the girlfriend too. I'm thinking the cheating and "confession" were intentional, and she's pissed the plan spectacularly backfired. Either she wanted to break up with you but lacked the thatchers to do it, or she wanted to make you jealous for some stupid reason. Either way, dump her ass.
2
The Wronged Party; funny story. You got yourself one warped little princess there, wish her well and walk away.
And piss off the bud as well.
4
@3: I'm pretty sure Bro will get his just reward from being involved with Batwoman, there.
5
"kochbrotherā€- The Santorum of this election year!!!

Wrong proves that despite some stereotypes the bro code is an ethical one (mmmā€¦ me standing up for manhood...)
6
Whoops, that was supposed to be @2. Doesn't really matter. Anyway, @3, I don't think it is so much a double standard as it is that she wants him to show that she matters to him via a display of jealousy.

If he feels it's worth his while, he can explain her stupidity to her before breaking up. "So, what you are saying is that you want me to be miserable in this relationship -- not miserable enough to dump you, but juuuuuuusssst miserable enough to please you -- while you fuck around on me. Sounds toxic; I'll pass. Door's that way."
7
Is a "kochsucker" what you call all these idiots who fall for their bullshit?
9
It would be interesting to have the last letter (LIARS) answered by all the other "advice professionals" out there and see what they would came up with.
10
The last letter reminded me of Murder is Easy, when Bridget Conway told Luke Fitzwilliam, "The heroine is never killed," and he just stopped himself from telling her, "But you're not the heroine." LW is acting well for the moment, but seems to be having what several of Dame Muriel Spark's characters would call delusions of grandeur.
11
@ avast #4 - agree - girlfriend and bud deserve each other and will make each other perfectly miserable. LW kills two birds with one stone by leaving them to each other's tender mercies. Better Not to be one of two birds in this bush.
13
Wronged's girlfriend sounds like she wants drama -- a boyfriend she can tease, torment and make jealous. He should count his lucky stars he's not the one and if she doesn't go as promised, kick her to the curb himself.
14
Additional advice for BUTT: (Dan has written about this ad nauseum, but it's always worth repeating)
Start small and work your way up to larger diameters. In fact, get a set of butt plugs that have a variety of increasing diameters. Lotsa lube. Go slow. Silicone only. No sharing. Clean up after each use.
15
So how much commission is the author of "Carrie" getting for writing 1/4 of this week's column? (I'm kidding, shut up!)

Also, Wronged should freak out the bud by simply asking him "So when is it my turn?"
16
Aww. Anyone else think BUTT's letter was rather sweet?

I'm kind of laughing at TWP's soon-to-be-former girlfriend. She didn't have the cojones to break up with him, because she didn't want him to be able to claim victim status. So she intentionally does something she figures will definitely result in a DTMFA, and not only does TWP not DTMFA, he thinks it's hot and wants to join in. Hah! Serves little miss drama queen right! :)

LIARS should ask her lover to ask for an open relationship. IMO, an affair is only permissible if this option has been requested and rejected -- the partner is stuck in the "you can't fuck me, but you can't fuck other people either" bind.
17
@1 It's entirely possible that the LW's friends have similar viewpoints on sexual intimacy; non-possessive, share and share a like, etc. The LW didn't seem to mind, so it's hard to see why his friend needs to be dropped.
18
Re Wronged
Having had some experience with women, My take is that there is a good chance GF wants to get between her BF and his Buddy, and have LOTS of drama along the way. DTMFA, and re-evaluate his friendship with the buddy.
RE: LIARS
This arrangement is fine now,... but if Mom starts to feel neglected or resentful, she has all the power in this relationship. Her lover, with his wife and disabled son has placed himself in a very vulnerable position.
While I agree with Dan's advice, the situation is fraught with peril for the Husband. On the "Plus" side, the very knowledge of this peril injects (sorry) more adrenalin and excitement into what is already a pretty heady experience for these two. Ah, Youth.
19
@3: You want him to continue the relationship with someone who shames HIM for being cheated upon? Good god, that'd be crazy-seeking behavior.
20
Ms Fan - I was going to say that Mr Savage might have pointed out, just in case LW thought it obligatory, that anal is optional. And I did think he might be a good match for my Serial Complimenter.
21
Did I miss where LIARS said her lover's marriage was sexless? Or that he had any reason to think his wife would leave if he talked to her honestly?
22
As a replacement for the word cocksucker, I favor pig-fucker. It's particularly effective against Muslim terrorists.
23
@21--No, you did not. Couples that have grown apart can and do still have sex. Who knows if the wife would leave or be open to an open marriage? Not LIARS' lover, because he hasn't talked to his wife. This is a justification. For the record, LIARS should have no problem finding a FWB who will give her plenty of space to parent her kid, and while this guy might be a genuinely great lover, there are other really good lovers in the word.
24
@22: Since the word "pig" is often used to describe a womanizing or anti-feminist man or a disgusting (read overweight) woman, I don't want to introduce it as a substitute for "cocksucker." "kochbrother" works pretty well. I think "kochbrotherfucker" might work even better or "kochbrotherlover," but both are a bit unwieldy.
25
Just wondering if the word "cocksucker" enters the vocabulary in a complimentary way, will "cuntlicker" follow suit? As in,
Person A: "I just met your new boyfriend--he seems like a nice guy."
Person B: "Yeah, he's a real cuntlicker. Did I tell you that he bought me flowers and changed the oil in my car last Thursday?"
Person B: He's a keeper!
26
nocutename @25:

How about, "Yeah, he's a total pussyface! Did I tell you that he bought me flowers and changed the oil in my car last Thursday?"
27
Allen Gilliam @22,

The epithet is "goat-fucker." Freely using "goat-fucker" as a synonym for "muslim" is what got Theo Van Gogh assassinated. Go for it.
28
Alison @26: I like it.
29
I love this week's "Fresh Air" graphic, Joe--good one! That's one happily liberated cock.
Does author Stephen King know of the urologist by the same name?
30
AIR: I can't imagine spending 20 minutes twice a day airing my cock out.

BUTT: I recommend starting with a very small cock. Do you have any kid brothers?

TWP: By failing to fly into a jealous rage and start a fist-fight with your friend, you're putting your own selfish needs ahead of your girlfriend's self-esteem.

CLIT: Why would you strip cock sucking of its transgressiveness? Or swearing, for that matter. Do you hate fun? "Kochbrother" sounds like something Ned Flanders would say.

LIAR: Follow your heart.
31
Kochbrother? Yuck----I'd call that an ominous sexual turn-off, right alongside Ned Flanders' right-wing dorky"okily-dokily" (spot on, Sean) and Trumpzilla's rug.
32
...although the world would indeed be a MUCH better place without Koch brothers!
33
@31 & @32: Oh--wait--that was the point, wasn't it?
Kochbrothers, the Santorum for 2016. Ugh. Agreed.

Happy Thanksgiving, Dan and everybody, with big warm wishes from Griz and VW beeps!
LavaGirl--hope the heat wave in Queensland isn't too unbearable--have a favorite cool drink for me! This reminds me--I need to pick up a DVD of "The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert"--Terrence Stamp rocks as Bernice, along with Hugo Weaving and Guy Pierce!
Didn't the Oscar-winning costume designer for Priscilla show up for the Oscars in a gown made entirely of American Express Gold cards? Momma Mia!
34
@22 Allen Gilliam and Alison Cummins @27: I have already been using the epithet "pig fucker" to describe heartless corporate climate change deniers and their lobbyists lustily profiteering from Big Oil and Big Coal. It sure fits, doesn't it?
35
Okay--I've said a Kochbrotherload.
Back to Fresh Air and Thanksgiving Week.
36
TWB's girlfriend's reaction is not uncommon. I am fairly laid back and not particularly sexually jealous, and have had many girls find a lack of jealousy/possessiveness to be a negative. I assume this is another female thing I can't wrap my head around, like Pinterest.

Happy Yankee Thanksgiving.
37
@ Wronged Party:

Just to help in future setups you might seek/arrange, once you're free of your current drama queen: use "MFM" instead, because it separates the two males with a female in the middle: exactly the setup you're looking for, if you're not interested in other dudes. (MMF implies a bisexual guy in the group.)
38
Happy Thanksgiving you'all.
Even you Sean, despite that below the belt little brother line.
Watch " Snowtown" and you'll see why.
Enjoy your once a year special day.
39
Allen @22: And prime ministers of the United Kingdom.

Erica @21: I missed that too, unless it's subtly hidden in the "the only thing they have in common is caring for their adult child." And agree that you really need to specify that someone isn't getting sex in the marriage before you can justify getting sex, dishonestly, outside of it.
40
Ms Cute - (By the way, Tuesday I finished reading Gone Girl at the library, which almost made me regret that I don't give a fig for Oscars, or this would be another one for a hypothetical Robbed list - although I don't know if I'll ever see the film.)

This is quite serendipitous, as I just happened to wander over here as I was planning a reply to someone about something totally different, and here you are going into differentiating terminology. Just the person to consult.

Consider, if you would, an activity with a performer and a receiver in which participants of noteworthy enthusiasm might be deemed a pig and a hound, respectively. You'll recall perhaps my objections to Mr Savage's generalizing such terms in describing All Men. I've been reasonably satisfied with deeming the performer a fiend instead of a pig, but am less satisfied with freak as a substitution for hound. You seem just the person to ask (although suggestions from others are also welcome).
41
Seandr @30 - well done. i have nothing to add. hahaha
43
CLIT should start a movement. 'Cocksucker' is an endearment. The pejorative use is, I'm pretty damn' sure, homophobic in origin.

Theo Van Gogh used 'goat-fucker' for Islamists because some jumped up 'authority' in Iran, perhaps Khomeini himself, issued a serious fatwa about the Correct, Islamic, way to practice bestiality with ruminants.
44
@43 I was pondering the other day why "cocksucker" and "sucks" are pejorative. I'm not sure it's based in homophobia. My theory is that it refers to someone who does it to ingratiate themselves with a superior and obtain favors, similar to "brown-noser" or "ass-kisser".
45
My hetero sons joke with each other, and call each other cocksuckers. This around other words imying they each are gay. This game doesn't seem to happen often.
My boys are not homophobic, one of them did a positive gay video in his film class at school.
It's their way, I sense, of dealing with their homoerotic impulses.
46
*implying.
48
My sons are all uncircumcised. I have stayed well away from their sexualities, having witnessed the sexual mess that is the Catholic Church. When they demanded privacy, age 6/7/8, who remembers, since then I haven't seen my sons naked.
I talk with them about how to treat women emotionally, only. The rest is their business, and they keep it their business.
Women , in my experience, never much joke that each of them are Lesbian or not. Men seem to have a different relationship to their homoeroticism.
Men touch themselves all the time, yet have this freak out about touching other men.
The charged energy is their attraction. Not sure why they can't just sit back and let the impulse flow thru them. Don't have to act on it, if it's not strong enough. Blocking it's flow is where the vengeance comes from, when people use cocksucker as a derogatory term.
49
My sons are pretty calm about women. Only one of the four seems to need a woman in his life at all times.
50
nocutename @ 24
Iā€™d argue that ā€œpigā€ is a gender-blind word. Quite a few menā€™s attributes are also associated with it. You may even remember the famous tennis match.

Hunter @ 47
It's not only about "competition." Some men who are accustomed to "patriarchy" of some sort may view gays and trans women as worthless since they willingly "gave up" their manly rights. This may also stem from fear that this creeping "feminism" will eventually be the norm.
And lets not forget all those Houston men who recently got dresses for themselves, anticipating an ordinance that would allow them to use the womenā€™s restrooms. They are indeed cleaner, yet the lines are way longer.

Not saying you are one of them- I mean the patriarchs, donā€™t know about the dresses- just used some local jargon to illustrate a point.
51
I did venture into the physical world once, with one of this boy's gf. Present gf.
She was having stomach pains , I innocently asked if she could be pregnant. Were they covered with contraception.
She told him and he let me know to butt out.
52
@48 & @49 LavaGirl: Kudos to you. It sounds like you did a wonderful job as a parent raising your sons and daughters. Bless you.

I do try to avoid situations involving raging testosterone whenever I can. I don't expect a medal, but heaven knows I have endured enough macho bullshit for a lifetime after one four year enlistment in the U.S. military and a bad marriage.

54
@50: CMD, I thought I covered all gendered uses of "pig" @24. Including ye olde "male chauvinist kind"
55
No G. Not a wonderful parent, many wrong moves and stupid decisions.
I just kept out of their sexualities.
57
AC@27
Freely using "goat-fucker" as a synonym for "muslim" is what got Theo Van Gogh assassinated.

Theo van Gogh's murderer has explicitly said that Van Gogh had to die because of insulting the prophet, not because of calling radical muslims "goatfuckers". (@43 has the origin of that particular insult.)
58
Hunter- can you clarify "Cdm?"
59
@Hunter: Cocksucker is a serious homophobic insult

The last time I used it was to cheer on the woman giving me a blowjob.
60
It doesn't refer to a body part of mine, so I have no personal negative reaction to the word, cocksucker.
As a word, I like to hear it. It connotes male subversion in a way. Yes women do it, that's not who usually get called cocksuckers.
Even those who use it in rage, are contributing to generating an image.
When cunt is used as a derogatory word, there's no action involved. Which is what nocute pointed out above.
61
Ms Lava - Liking to hear a word used to threaten someone's person or livelihood is going to be a pretty big bell to unring. It's a shame you never met Mr Ank, as the two of you would be a far superiour match to the marriage he was in when he was posting, especially if you didn't mind that his greatest passion in life is for learning Latvian grammar.
62
No Venn, I don't like it used to threaten people. Please. They would still threaten them with another word. The intent doesn't change with the language.
When I see that word, which is the main place I know of it, except when my sons playing , and sometimes on movies, it generates a loving/ erotic image to me.
Yes it is used to denigrate people, it can only be taken that way if the person feels denigrated.
If cuntlicking was used as a derogatory word, I'd be less offended than I am by just cunt.

63
That's cuntlicker.
64
In my travels elsewhere, I've been noticing quite a number of people complaining about the Canadian cabinet's sudden acquisition of gendre balance as a Campaign Promise Upheld. Most of those complaining have gone the silly Most Qualified route, which is so much less applicable in the case of political appointments than, say, police departments. The one complaint which might have some substance to it is that it was all done in such a way to make the pretty PM look like a Gendre Saviour and blur the question of merit. Can any of our Canadian correspondents shed any light?

*****

I also have two new awards when I was only looking for one. The first is an Orwell Award, but I don't know who exactly deserves it. I've encountered the idea that the concept of gendre equality's being for everyone is misogynistic because women are so systemically disadvantaged. I've not had time to consider the degree of accuracy in the claim, but it's so worthy of the Ministry of Love (or should that be the Ministry of Peace?). But I've yet to hear it attributed.

My other new Award (I really need a catalogue) I'm calling the Wilkinson and bestowing it on a young woman who doesn't post here. She is a conservative Christian who has learned the trick on which the award is based, speaking the truth about herself often enough and in a sufficiently silly way that nobody believes it. Recently, for instance, in a conversation with a young Englishman, she made a point of repeating several times how disgusting it was that health care was a right in his country. She also has the shrewdness to surround herself with pro-gay or gay-neutral people who just like dropping F-bombs, with the end result being that they completely cloak her genuinely anti-gay positions unless one goes digging for them.
65
Ms Lava - After the opening phrase, "Liking to hear a word," you seem to be inferring when it is before "used to threaten..." instead of that is. My bad; the eternal fault of a puzzle setter is that almost anything we say contains a red herring.
66
High five for Canada. I remember that guy's father or was it his mother. Some domestic issue of honesty erupted there.
I've never felt disadvantaged Venn, even though I know I am. Or rather, I found ways to play the system as best I could, given the conditions. Guerrilla warfare in some ways, one still needed to be a little subtle.
I never wanted to alienate men. And they didn't invent the system, they just inherited it.
Also being a woman has much going for it, the adventures our bodies can take us on.
67
@65, say what, Venn?
68
I've never wanted to be a man, just wanted some of their advantages. So I took them. The one that seemed most important; knowledge seeking.
After that I took my own turning, because my womb reminded me of this other direction.
The whole bitch goddess success seemed like a burden to me about men. So constricting of one's creative flow.
And I never wanted to mow lawns.
71
@venn: Having a gender-balanced cabinet for me is a bit like painting over a structural flaw: it achieves the desired final effect without addressing the underlying problem, which in this case is a social system that does not produce as many female as male candidates for election. My bias is addressing such problems from the ground up, not the top down, but it's a hell of a good start, and maybe both are necessary: perhaps it will serve as an inspiration to younger women who will be more inclined to pursue the kind of education and life experiences that could land them in parliament some day.

As far as merit: the cabinet members in question have serious bona fides and are probably as qualified from an education, experience, conviction and integrity angle as anyone else. What determines merit in a job that involves mostly shmoozing, talking, negotiating and knowing people anyway? It seems to me political success is determined as much by who you are and who you know as what you can do. That's a pretty fuzzy area, and it seems to me life experience as a woman in a country that is half female is just as valid a qualification as, say, an understanding of macro economics (not suggesting the two are exclusive).
72
Some days I over-use certain punctuation marks: today it is the colon.
73
Yes; "cocksucker" has been one of the worst epithets I have ever heard, always directed at a man (either by a man or a woman). It seems it clearly has roots in homophobia, in that the very worst thing a man could do was to want to suck another man's cock. Interestingly, if I thought about it, I would think that it implied a lack of manliness, or a kind of weakness or subservience, because it could be seen as the "feminine" position of being the penetrated, rather than the one doing the penetrating. The ancient Romans didn't see anal sex or fellatio as specifically homosexual acts and hate both (male) participants equally. The act of penetration was an act of conquest--hence a "manly" act, rendering the actor a real man; the act of being penetrated, whether in mouth or ass was the act of the conquered--hence the "female" position, and since females were lesser than males, the man giving the blowjob or "forced" to suck cock (as well as the man bottoming--or being raped--during anal sex), was equated to a woman--never a good thing in a (sorry Hunter, but I gotta say it) patriarchal society. ("Faggot," a bundle of sticks, used to be used as a term for a broom as well as kindling. Eventually, the word was conflated with the idea of a wife, so that "faggot" was synonymous with "wife," which itself was often synonymous with "woman." So a man who acted like a woman, either in being on the receiving end of a penis, or more frequently, in the usage, in an effeminate way, was called a "faggot"--a woman.)

But "cocksucker" generally refers to an abusive, arrogant, real selfish jerk of a man, and I think that the shift is fascinating.
74
@72: Clearly, today I'm all about the semicolon.
76
Hunter, Elizabeth Warren doesn't yet have the experience to build the coalitions a president needs--she might be thinking she needs some more time in Washington. She also might believe that this is Hillary Clinton's "time" and that she herself has plenty of time. She also may believe that her work as a senator isn't done yet. Here she can introduce legislation and serve on committees. She is in a position to do a lot of good and have a real impact, much like Ted Kennedy, the man whose seat she is now occupying did. He was a "failure" in that he couldn't be president, but I think he did a lot more long-term good than most presidents do.

In any case, her not running for president isn't about courage. If "courage" is what you meant by "balls." Because obviously she doesn't have testicles.
77
Venn @65: "I've encountered the idea that the concept of gendre equality's being for everyone is misogynistic because women are so systemically disadvantaged."

Isn't it more like the observation that some men who take an active interest in problems of gender inequality do so only when, and because, they are being disadvantaged due to their gender -- such as in a custody dispute -- and want to fix those disparities first, while women, as usual, wait their turn to have their disadvantages redressed?
79
@78: I have little doubt that she'll do it at some point. And when that day comes, I plan to work for her campaign.
81
Hillary has a sharp edge to her, I find unpleasant. Can't be easy for a woman to carry such deep humiliation from her man, and not walk away. Nothing would have made me stay in that marriage.
Perhaps she should take a lover.
82
Ms Fan - No. What you say may not be incorrect in its own realm, but you are speaking of the application of the idea. Saying X is being applied improperly isn't the same as saying X is inherently flawed. I was not commenting to agree or disagree with labeling the idea misogynistic, just to call doing so Orwellian.

I think your side has a better case than the people pushing it are presenting. There's far too much zero-summing here from both teams. I was telling an MRA yesterday that he gave the impression of preferring that everyone be pushed two steps backwards instead of advancing three steps himself if that also meant feminists advanced one.
83
Ms Cute - Here's a sentence Henry Tilney might approve: You're far too nice (as Catherine Morland would put it), but I quite appreciate that you can't afford to be nice (as Henry Tilney would put it).
84
Re LIARS, I fail to see how the LW is cheating or needs permission to do so. She's not married. Her lover is the one who is married so presumably he needs permission, from his wife, not from Dan. She should do her best to find out if he does, from the wife directly if possible, or get other verification, or just trust him. Her relevant questions: does she find it ethical for him to cheat? If so then it is also ethical for her to participate in his cheating. If not, then she needs to decide if it's ethical for her to participate in his unethical cheating. If it's a question of trust, if she doesn't trust him enough for this then he's probably not trustworthy enough to maintain a relationship with. As nocuteone pointed out, there are other men available who would make better partners in this kind of arrangement---single, divorced, honest poly, etc---so there's no reason to enable cheating if any of the answers lean toward "no."
85
@LavaGirl: "Perhaps she should take a lover."

Perhaps she already has.
86
No Late, that girl is not giving herself pleasure nor is anyone else. Least to my eyes.
87
Mr Bloomer - I think you're overstating, but the idea is sound. I'm sure most civilized countries could produce an all-female cabinet in which every member would be qualified - and, for a cabinet, similarly to the case of a US Supreme Court judge, good working and ideological chemistry with the appointer is going to count far more than more "objective" standards. At or to what point do you think it's necessary or justified to put a finger on the scale? How much of the problem will fix itself if women really are gaining the educational upper hand? I know I've wondered frequently where the "natural" number might lie in another fifty years' time or so.
88
@55 LavaGirl: I still think you did much better than I ever could have done as a parent. I mean that as a compliment.
@56 Hunter: I still consider my sisters the real life equivalent of Drizilla and Anastacia (or, for Roald Dahl fans, Spiker and Sponge--or, for Matt Groening fans, Patty and Selma). They are who and how they are--bossy, controlling, manipulative, immature, clingy, overly demanding, and jealously possessive. I don't need that insane level of bullshit in my life, and I'll never be close to them. I doubt you'd want to do lunch with either of them.
When it comes to advice, however, I will always ask my brother. He has been known to use common sense most consistently among my older sibs. Ironically, my brother lives the furthest away. Time, space, and distance seem to have helped a lot over the past two years. My parents, like all of us, had their shortcomings, too, but were still for the most part very loving, giving and supportive.
To be honest, I think distancing myself was important. My sibs and I are coping in our own individual ways with the loss of our beloved parents.
89
@75 Hunter: My guess is that Elizabeth Warren has the wisdom enough to avoid facing off with the grossly overpaid pigs--the GOP---in Congress. You don't need a scrotum to have wisdom.
90
Anyway--Senator Warren can help us all Feel the Bern!
91
@79 nocutename: ....not to say I wouldn't vote for Senator Warren if she ran for U.S. President.
She could bring the banksters on Wall Street to their knees. I wouldn't mind seeing that.
92
@88, Part II, to @56 Hunter: No snark, but why do you think my brother lives 1,200 miles and two states away from where he was originally born and raised, smiling through the worst gridlock in L.A.? He has known our two oldest siblings for almost 8 full years longer than I have; he grew up with them, went to the same schools as they did, had a lot of the same teachers, and avoids family reunions and holiday gatherings whenever possible. He would certainly know our sisters the best.
Something tells me he is secretly and silently cheering about this newfound wisdom of my 6 Degrees of Separation, and following Big Brother's lead by primarily emailing, rather than try to communicate over long distance with two self-appointed drama queens, cackling like chickens, forever squabbling over who rules the roost.
Hopefully, my sisters haven't formed the weird idea that since they (along with my brother) wrote letters in support of my recent VA PTSD Disability claim that I'm suddenly to be forever in their debt. I wouldn't be surprised---they're that ridiculous. Meanwhile, no news is good news from them.
93
@88 Part III. re: Hunter @56: So there you have it. You asked, I answered.

Okay-----back to this week's Savage Love: Fresh Air and Thanksgiving Weekend, and back to computer work on Finale 2007 and 2011 and GF pumpkin cheesecake--for Griz.
Happy Leftovers, everyone! Go, UW Huskies in the Apple Cup!
94
Way back around comment 20 you all were talking about the emotional impact of the word "cocksucker." I have a joke on that topic so I skipped down to relate it. If the conversation has moved on (assume so) then I hope you find it amusing anyway.

Way back when, before oral sex was standard (say, your grandpa's generation) a man married his high school sweetheart. On thier wedding night, he asked his new bride to "kiss it." She said "oh, no, Henry, if I do that you'll never respect me." He didn't press her. But over the years, every so often, he'd ask her: "sweetheart, won't you please give it a little kiss?" "Oh, honey I know what they say about women who do that, you'd never respect me again." So he went without. Time passed - thier children were born, grew up into fine people, they had grandchildren, and they were so happy together.... But Hemry couldn't stop wishing for that one thing. When they celebrated thier fiftieth wedding anniversary, he asked again. "Darling," he says, " you are my wife, the love of my life, the mother of my children and the grandmother of
My grandchildren. By now you surely know how much I love and respect you. Won't you please give
Me this one thing I've always wanted?" She says "well, dear, I guess you're right. I adore you and after all these years you deserve it." So she goes down and
Puts her mouth on him and does the best she can to give him what he's always wanted. He enjoys it greatly, he orgasms, and when he's done he starts to pull her up and hug her. Just them the phone rings. Henry picks it up, listens briefly, then holds it out towards his wife and says "it's for you, cocksucker."
95
Funny. I do remember when it wasn't standard, and I am a grandmother. She's only six.
It wasn't overwhelmingly expected by young men when I was a young woman.
How times change.
96
He was a conflicted husband gueralinda, not such a problem anymore.
97
Returning to cocksucker. I never saw it as being any different from any other profane insult, like asshole, motherfucker, dickhead, etc. No one means those words literally. "You're a cocksucker" isn't an insult to one's sexuality, it's just an insult.
100
@ bidanfan 97 - same here. It has rarely been a gay slanted slur in my experience either.... rather more analogous to "asshole" in meaning. I don't really use cocksucker at all myself. But not because i think its homophobic... i just dont happen to use it. It does bring to mind (for me) that scene in Bull Durham (for any fans out there...)
101
@100, Chairman, I don't think it is used as a "gay slanted slur," generally, in that I don't think anyone hurling it is being consciously homophobic or trying to imply that the person in question is gay. I think all that is present in the origin of the term and that no one thinks that much about it now. But in my experience, it's carries a harsher weight that "asshole."
102
@101: Edit: "it" not "it's" To clarify, I think that "cocksucker" is a stronger insult than "asshole" or "dickhead," but not because I think anyone using it is deliberately trying to imply that the recipient is gay. However, I do think that the roots of the term's vitriol come from homophobia which is inherent in the term, especially since I've never heard it used to describe or insult a woman.
103
nocute: i can agree with that. makes sense
104
and totally off topic..but.... someone just sent me this...and well... i had to pass it on...

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=116…

105
nocute @ 73
Have you observed any fascinating shift in ā€œbeing a dick?ā€

BDF- congrats on the avatar. Visually interesting, any story behind that umbrella?

Chairman @ 104
I guess that video may be part of a new, socially accepted meaning of ā€œbeing a dick.ā€
Iā€™m heading to Walgreen right now!
106
apparently... the tug toner is a jimmy kimmel thing from 2011.... i am rather amazed i only just encountered it.... haha...oh well... guess i am living under a rock....
107
I never use 'cocksucker' alone as an insult, but I have occasionally used either 'sharp-toothed cocksucker' or 'incompetent cocksucker' as an insult.
109
Just to join Ms Cute in offering a little historical perspective, I don't think anyone was ever fired after being called a Disco Bunny. But it is good to know that one's efforts towards de-fanging particular words have had some effect.
110
@93: Holy CRAP what an Apple Cup--more turnovers in Husky Stadium than in a Danish pastry shop----45-10! Go, Dawgs, Go! Let the Bowl games begin!
@94: Ugh.
@99: The answer is obviously No.
111
@83: Thank you, Mr. Ven.
112
Oh, cocksucker is totally a homophobic slur! (Context: I was born in 1964.) See also the Stonesā€™ Cocksucker Blues, which dates from 1970, though in this case itā€™s definitely used fondly.

Note also Lenny Bruceā€™s conviction in 1964 for saying ā€˜cocksuckerā€™ and sentence to four months in a workhouse.
0
@112 Alison: Duly noted. Have you ever seen the 1974 film, Lenny, with Dustin Hoffman in the title role and Valerie Perrine as Lenny Bruce's stripper wife, Honey Harlowe?
1964---the last boom year--wow! I'm among the last of the Boomers.
113
@BiDanFan: No one means those words literally

I recite all of the forbidden words as a sort of mantra whenever I'm assembling Ikea furniture.
117
@112 Alison: So we were both born in the same year? We should start a Last Boom club.

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