Savage Love

Racist Preferences

Comments

1
"during petting"?

Who talks like that?!
2
Is it just me or is it kinda universal that we never get the objects of our obsession?
4
I'm a straight person of color and I've been rejected because of my race. Nothing new here.
5
I have a feeling this is going to be stereotypes week. And since an Asian gay man started it all I’ll chime in a bit on his particular situation, and then proceed to once again agonize over my very own rapidly disintegrating life…

While “Some of my best friends are Jews” is indeed a true statement in my case, it’s politically correctness value is somewhat deceiving. I don’t have any Asian gay men bests. Yet I do have some “regulars” who fit the category, and few others who seem to be happily dating a white dude regular.

I don’t live in NYC or Toronto; I’m on the other side, and the gay scenes I’ve witnessed seem to be more accommodating than the one described by EDDIE. At least on the surface. I can’t say why this is different if any on those east coast metropolitans, but I would also suspect that those big cities can also offer different environments. Hopefully some more knowledgeable people can clarify the matter.

I have also noticed that Asian born-men who present themselves as women part or full-time may have a somewhat easier time than many other wanna bees. Not only their (generally speaking) features and build can be an advantage, they are also more likely to be accepted by their families as who they are- an Asian phenomenon that goes well beyond the big metropolitans.
6
EDDIE: Maybe the Enraged part is a turn off? Or maybe you are too handsome. Lots of guys I know including me are afraid to go up to (or Grindr message) extreme hotties. Big cities encourage low self esteem. Social comparison and people tend to be ruder / busier about blow offs. But I see lots of hot Asian guys in NYC with boyfriends, husbands, dancing, walking on the street, at social events, and tons of guys hanging off them in sex clubs.

I think some people get lucky. Also an odds game, if you keep asking and trying, in a non-creepy consensual gentle manner, assuming you have more than one obsession, you're more likely to eventually find someone who feels the same way about you. Especially if it's not just an object obsession but deeper.
7
2nd part of my comment was for @2
8
More or Less: She was somewhat drunk and hurt me with her teeth during petting,

Dan: Italians pet with their teeth?

No they don't. But a very horny Italian will give a lot of wine to a lioness.
9
Great advice on staying away from dating apps. The whole "swipe" mentality is dehumanizing no matter who you are. And perusing faces like cans on a grocery store shelf brings bias to the forefront; you're more likely to swipe left on the first thing you notice, in this case, race, and by the time you recognize that he's VGL you've already passed.

Do people still do speed dating?
10
"Maybe the Enraged part is a turn off?"

Or *something* else going on in addition to the anti-Asian bias? Which absolutely is a real factor, for sure. But it's a factor like part of your potential dating pool drops out because of biased attraction -- 80%, or 50%, who knows what really, but it's not 100%, is what these other guys are hinting. This is a numbers game. If you've seen enough to say there really is nobody interested, well it's probably two things on top of each other.

Could be your own preferences are specific. Could be your preferences end up being for racist guys specifically somehow. Could be you have a chip on your shoulder as a result of your experiences, which I could understand but there it is. Could be you have bad breath. I certainly don't know from here.

"Sorry about the racist dudes, keep looking, you'll find someone who isn't!" is true as far as it goes. If none of those guys go for you, the odds say there's some other factor. It may not be fair either, but if you know what it is that might help.
11
Not saying that "Keep looking, you'll find someone who likes you!" is helpful advice, EDDIE, which that may have sounded like. Life is shitty sometimes, some people are in places where that really isn't true in any practical way, not true enough to live on.

What I think is that "keep looking" can get you enough guys past the one thing, your being Asian, that you can take a look at what else may be going on.
12
A friend and I were just talking about the whole 'no whatever' thing online and as a black man he prefers it. That way he knows who to ignore and make fun of--besides, what's the alternative? Not allowing it so they just ignore someone they're not interested in? Or things are going fine until pics are exchanged and then they disappear?
If you think that regulating how the ads are written is going to magically make those guys more sensitive; get a grip.
14
jc @1 Italian bisexual guy LW2 may very well be an Italian from Italy for whom English is a second language. Getting the North American sex jargon straight is not easy and mistakes inevitably tend to sound silly.
15
Add "petting" to the list of sex words that squick me out. Did MOL mean "petting," or did he mean "head"? My guess is the second. Dude, use some adult words for adult activities.

As for EDDIE, my first question is whether he himself is seeking out only white guys. He can hardly complain about other men having racial preferences if he has them himself. If not, maybe he can look for other Asian, Latino or Black men who've had the same issues? There must be plenty of them in his large city.
16
Ditto @14. Hint: not everyone is American, especially people who say they're Italian. They might well be using the English word "petting" differently in Italy.
17
Ginnie @16: A fair point. My ex, who was Italian, used to refer to giving me oral sex as "giving me a blowjob." I am female and found that terminology endearing.
So, yeah, Italians do know that phrase.
18
I would guess LW2 is using "petting" to mean something like "foreplay" here. "Using teeth" could conceivably refer to anything from "playfully biting nipples" to "biting lips during kissing" (I hate that) to "blowjob with too much teeth".
We will only learn the truth if he clarifies it himself in the thread ...
19
Ms Fan@15 - [Gay men, mostly whites and Asians, reject me because of my race and no one admits to their sexual racism.]

At the start of this letter, I thought it was going to be highly significant that LW presented first as queer in the opening sentence. Through that sentence, it still seemed quite plausible, and then the letter might have drifted into the waters of gays not being edgy enough anymore, a sentiment we saw last year among those who regretted from the left not so much the expansion of options but that the greatest same-sexer achievement should be something so bourgeois as marriage. But instead, the letter veered back entirely to race.

I'm never entirely comfortable around assertions like these that are simultaneously entirely plausible and likely overreaches. This LW would not be a fun witness to cross-examine. I don't know whether in person I'd want someone to give him a hug (not a dispreference; I've retired from that sort of thing) or wonder exactly what on his terms constitutes acceptance, a welcome and a space. I get a possible vibration off this letter of someone who perhaps expects to be welcomed with lauds and hosannas and thinks that meeting ordinary treatment is really receiving negative discrimination. (I really don't want to be briefed at all on this letter.)

I don't think Mr Savage quite got the tone of his Lecture-Teh-Whitegaymenz right, but he was in a difficult position. It reminds me of Ms Watson and how she received unfair criticism, after her UN lecture on there being more manifestations of acceptable masculinity than the merely stereotypical, for dating a rugby player. Curiously, the people who called out her critics were often just as bad, implying or openly stating that rugby players were superiour (and that Ms Watson, as a successful and accomplished young woman, being in Joan Plumleigh Bruce's top drawer, was entitled to a partner from that same echelon) to the sorts of men whose claims Ms Watson was supporting.
20
EDDIE... Yes the racism is unfair and society is slowly changing. Yes, Dan's letter touches on a lot of the reasons for that. This is a problem for straight people too. I doubt it has too much to do with being gay. I'm a straight gal, and I could've written the same letter.

While it's important that we recognize racism and also our (culturally shared) unrealistic expectations of what we consider sexy, it's also true that it's a really big turn off when someone has an attitude of "why won't men (or women) fuck me?" and then concludes with "it's because men (or women) are _____." Fill in the blank with whatever you want: Racist. Sexist. Interested only in beautiful, thin, tall partners. Money grubbing whores. Etc. The whole "I could get laid if only I were ____" attitude is really a turn-off.

Here's the thing. It is probably true in a lot of cases. Racist dudes aren't going to fuck you, just like there are women who aren't going to fuck short men and there are men who aren't going to fuck heavy women, etc. This isn't just a gay thing.

So yeah. One thing we can all do is talk more about this so that those of us who aren't consciously shallow and racist (because, no one should give a fuck about THOSE people in the first place) can start to recognize this tendency in ourselves, too. Do you give less conventionally attractive men a chance (shorter, less athletic dudes, etc)? And what about non-white men? Do you hit on tall, fit, athletic black dudes? Maybe you do- I'm just saying that for a lot of people, it's a subconscious (culturally created) tendency, and we all need to check ourselves. It's waaayyy less a turn off to talk about how YOU came to understand YOUR OWN privilege and/or stereotypical behavior- other people don't feel threatened, they start to reflect on themselves. But if you go around saying "hey, no one will fuck me 'cause I'm Asian"- well it just sounds like a pity-party even if it's partially true.

Moving on to your more immediate problem though- it's the same advice that people in the comments section here always seem to give. Stop focusing on what is making you NOT get laid, and instead work on how awesome you are. Confident, interesting, socially intelligent people with a lot going on get laid, even the ones that aren't conventionally attractive. The fact that you ARE conventionally attractive also, means you have that advantage at least. But it stinks to be like, "hey I'm hot. Why isn't anyone fucking me?" Umm, yes the world is totally unfair, and if you were also white, you'd probably get more ass. But there's nothing you can do about that, so don't dwell on it. Just be awesome in whatever it is that makes you awesome. What is that? What is interesting about you? What do you offer? Ask your friends about how you come across in conversation. How do you handle rejection? How do you approach people? Be confident, be interesting, be socially smart, and yeah, it sucks that you'll have to work a little harder than the good looking white guy. But you don't have to work nearly as hard as a short, ugly, older, overweight guy!
21
Just noting that while Dan rightly said that the preference for white men is more toxic than the preference for tall men, the preference for tall men is still plenty toxic.
22
Eddie, there will always be people who are more attractive than you are, and people who aren't attracted to you. Get over it.
23
EDDIE, as a (more privileged by birth and something I did not have a part in - my race) gay white man, what you are talking about strikes a real nerve with me, believe it or not. It infuriates me that our "community" that should be the most accepting on the planet, discriminates and isolates, and boxes in based on something so...un-chooseable (not a word I know). Why anyone puts "no Asians" on their profile is a mystery. Are you really being savaged by so many of those pesky, annoying Asians that you need to put a disclaimer ahead of time? Give me a break. How about if someone, for whatever reason - shallow or more in depth - does not strike your fancy you either ignore them (polite) or engage them politely without leading them on? The main point from your letter I want to address is that you...YOU, EDDIE and I who am writing this and all of the people who may be reading this since it universally applies is that you are a HUMAN BEING and since when did it become acceptable, whether hiding behind an app or sitting across from you at a bar to dismiss that and treat you (anyone) as though they were not or to box a PERSON in to a category of un-fuckable or un-anything simply because of one factor? I came to terms with the fact I am attracted to Asian men (and every other race...attraction is attraction!) years ago. But here is the thing, just because you are 1. cute and 2. Asian may get me to talk to and message you but it won't keep me engaged. Why? Cuz it takes more than that, it takes me and you connecting, as PEOPLE, however superficially or (hopefully) deeply. And shouldn't that be the real point? I am sorry that you have felt this. I really am. I lose credibility in even saying so since I am white but that won't stop me from speaking out and up. It's easier to label me a "rice queen" (horribly offensive for myself and Asian men I may want to date or sleep with) than it is to take a minute and find out what makes me tick. Same goes for you - easier to say "he's Asian so...no" than to engage. It's sad. It's wrong. And it needs to change and how. That can only start with your attitude about yourself. Have that very real moment of discouragement and then remember if someone cannot see past whatever limited vision THEY have, then you don't want to be with them in any capacity anyway. You will find a guy or guys who see you and think you're hot and worth it. That much I am sure of. As you make your way through the sludge, hang in and be encouraged. You are not alone though you may feel lonely.
24
One of the adds on SL.
'20 of the world's most beautiful women' and they are all white. Like when some mag does an article on the world's best contemporary artists, and they are all men.. and then only American and European.
Chin up LW1, enjoy your unique beauty, your inner self confidence is what will attract others to you.
25
As for the second letter, Mr Savage omits a third possibility. Given LW's relative youth and what I'll infer to be relatively limited experience, as well as the less-than-ideal parameters of his relationship, he may find, should he soon have the opportunity for regular sex within his relationship, that he finds a genuine preference for exclusivity in himself after all. LW certainly isn't doomed to be unfaithful. Either of Mr Savage's possibilities relieve him of that. And we could have another Ibsen moment - LW could be Ellida Wangel in The Lady from the Sea, and his having the freedom to accept what tempts him could also turn out to give him the freedom to reject it.
27
Hi everybody, it is MOL writing! First of all thanks to mr Savage to answer to my email and publishing it - you really made my day - and thanks everybody for all your comments.
Maybe my english is not very clear, I'm sorry for that (yes, I am italian from Italy @jack #1 / @registredEuropean #14).
For "petting" I meant a "blowjob" (@bidanfan #15)...with too much teeth. By the way she was italian too (@hunter78 #3).
@Vennominon #26 I will look for that play, it seems interesting :) Tnks)
29
"race-ism" is confused with preference. When you hit 40 years you'll understand. They just Prefer "younger" men. It's just a preference.
30
@26 Actually, Asian men face a huge bias in dating. They contend with a number of ridiculous stereotypes (not as masculine, small penis, all nerdy, can't play sports, among others). OK Cupid and other dating/hookup sites collect racial preference data. Although this link reflects the data for heterosexuals, one could posit that homosexuals would hold similar biases. The group that received the least love? Black women! http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/race-a…
31
I really just don't get the attitude of someone who excludes some races from their dating pool. That kind of stuff bothers me, whether it be racists who write dehumanizing pre-rejections on their dating profiles or even people who use a race-specific dating app. Granted, I'm completely out of the dating game, but shouldn't people be considering other aspects of someone besides which continent their ancestors came from? When I was single, I never thought to exclude women on a racial basis.
32
Come to think of it, what is the "ideal" proportion of interracial relationships? Let's say the actual number were 79.4% instead of 20.6%; how would things be different?
33
its interesting to me because in the heterosexual world, Asian women are most desired by white men
34
before I transitioned to be a woman, I definitely felt like being a submissive Asian bottom in the gay community, I wasn't desired. I am not saying life is great as a trans Asian woman or anyone should transition so they can get a straight white men, which is not my reason for transitioning, but it seems Asian women , even trans Asian women, are more desirable by white men. Finally, I also like to say a lot of Asian, including myself, have internalized white imperialism and white supremacy, we believe that having a white boyfriend is the key to our happiness and affirm our self worth. A lot of it is social conditioning and I believe the generation of kids being born now will have less messed up sexual racism. I sure hope so because its not healthy.
35
@16 and @18 Italians use the English word, "petting" to indicate foreplay. Why, I cannot say, since there are Italian words for everything.

"Con il termine petting si indicano le effusioni amorose e le carezze, anche intime, che stimolano e agevolano l’eccitazione sessuale e spesso preparano al rapporto sessuale vero e proprio.
Possono rientrare fra le pratiche di petting: il bacio, la masturbazione reciproca e il sesso orale, spesso definiti per l’appunto ‘preliminari’."
36
Hello, MOL @27! And how interesting (@35) that "petting," a word English speakers haven't used since the 70s, is currently common Italian usage (though my ex certainly never said it. Perhaps it's a northern vs southern Italian difference, of which there are many). To me "petting" implies making out, with a possible side order of groping, but certainly nothing involving genital contact. As far as whether you are doomed to cheat, I think the long-distance thing isn't making things any easier. I've always believed monogamy requires actually having sex with the one person you're meant to be monogamous with. Perhaps you could get a hall pass / don't ask, don't tell, until such time when you are able to see each other regularly.
37
Growing @33: That's an easy one, it's because Asians are seen as more feminine and when you're a woman, that's generally viewed as a positive thing.

Now excuse me while I go and ponder the phrase, "submissive Asian bottom..."
39
@35 Thanks for the explanation
@36 Here in Germany they have similar peculiarities. Like using the word "Handy" to mean mobile phone - which I believe was never ever used in such a way in English.
40
Hunter @38: Indeed. From my biased perspective as a white female, I've observed the "having a white woman is a trophy for a black man" phenomenon. Either white men aren't seen as trophies for black women, or they are, but women do far less pursuing of their "trophies" than men so we see far fewer of these pairings. The rest of your post @26 makes a lot of sense. For a (white) feminist, perhaps a black man is less intimidating than a white one, because a black man can empathise with being on the wrong side of the privilege equation. Feminists are also usually anti-racism, so what better way to prove it than dating someone of a race which has historically been viewed as inferior.
41
LW2 - Good to see you here, and I'm surprised that I missed your post earlier. You definitely have plenty of options. Some things you might like may not be possible, but that doesn't mean doom of any kind.
42
My take on the first letter was "really?????" I live in a City with a large gay population and know plenty of white-asian gay couples. I'm married to a latino myself. I'm curious at what point a "preference" becomes a "fetish"? I've always liked latin guys, but don't fetishize them in terms of sterotypes and don't watch gay p0rn where the blacks and latinos are advertised as "thugs" since I think that whole thing is demeaning.

Could #1 be misinterpreting white guys who like him as "fetishists"? I'll admit that when I see an attractive latino it does a lot more for me than an attractive white guy, but is this a "fetish" or just simply an initial "preference"?

43
Mr Hunter/Ms Fan - To paraphrase the infamous Mr Yiannopoulos, we're talking about SS, darlings. I agree that the mix of gendres adds an extra dimension to consider about OS couples, but I was looking at something from Mr Savage's response:

[same-sex couples are far likelier to be interracial (20.6 percent) than opposite-sex couples (13.9 percent). So there's hope]

That portion of his reply just made me wonder what target number he or other people had in mind. It seems reasonable to infer that he wants a higher proportion than 20.6%. There are clearly more people open to the idea who just happen to have paired off otherwise. Again, I've given up all that sort of carry-on, as Mrs Doyle Counihan would say, so that I wouldn't have any clue as to what would be the probable ceiling, though that question seems to be tangential. But I did wonder what would be different about society - SS society - if the proportion of interracial couples were much higher. What would that be reflecting? And would it be possible (thinking vaguely of the way there seems to be an excess of white guilt in Sweden) for there to be negative effects should the percentage become a great deal higher? I don't really have any answers to propose; these are just thoughts Mr Savage inspired.
44
I was watching To Kill a Mockingbird with an Italian friend and a Moroccan friend. At one point someone says "so-and-so shot at a prowler!". The Italian asked the Moroccan what a prowler was, and the Moroccan responded: "I think it's some kind of cat."

Give the guy a break on the whole 'petting' thing.
45
Ginnie @39: We could even look at what different English-speaking countries call things! Your "handy" is an American's cell phone and a Brit's mobile (rhymes with nubile, not noble).
I was amused at how Germans say "ciao" for goodbye. The globe is truly global.
46
Venn @43: Indeed, the OS people are hijacking this week's column. I'm not surprised there are more interracial SS relationships than OS ones. For one, SS people are already flouting the world's biggest dating convention (you must date the opposite sex), so why worry about a "you must date your own race" convention? For another thing, breeding does not come into the equation.
I will say that in Europe, interracial relationships do not get the same kind of scrutiny as they do in the States.
47
Another reason for more interracial SS relationships than OS ones might be that the dating pool for SS is smaller. I believe there are also more SS couples with relatively large age differences than OS ones (no citation, sorry, just a hunch) which might have to do with the same thing.
48
EDDIE: so, you are into white and Asian guys, fine by me, but aren't you then marginalizing black, Hispanic, Semitic, Native American, et al, gay guys too? Bet you walk rights pass them ignoring any of their overtures to you as you long for recognition from those who pass by you.

Stereotypes or not, my experience has always been variety is the spice of life, and, I like my sex extra spicy: black men are great kissers and really do have larger cocks; Hispanics are more often uncut and just want some fun; Semitic guys are hairy, self-absorbed takers (who I readily enjoy); Native Americans have the most beautiful skin and want wonderful body-to-body contact; Italians are great for wham-bam-thank-you-man users; French are sassy make-out foreplay delights; English and Germans sure know some nastiness I never knew before; and so many more uniquenesses that have given me many pleasures.

With Asian men, well there is as much difference among Asians as there is among Europeans. Chinese are not Japanese; Koreans are not Cambodians, etc. My hairiness attracted many, though, in many more cases than not, by other bottoms where I had been seeking tops. Have had much fun being the hairy bottom; but amazing time was being shaved down by two horny Japanese guys who then spit roasted me (in the break before round two, they told me the act of shaving me was a huge empowerment turn on for them -- sure explained the pounding they gave me).

The point is there are those like me who, while we see and recognize race, our dicks are colored blind. We enjoy sharing our bodies with gay men. Period. Then there are those who, for whatever reason, have specific requisites for their sex partners: men who only do same raced men OR men who are only into specifically raced men. Really not different from body builders only into body builders; chubby chasers; bears/cubs.

Preference is only racism when that preference extends beyond the bedroom. Bigotry, in my case, well, I am a proud bigot of all racists!
49
I've read a U.S. site by blacks and it seems there is an issue about black men getting with white women, for the black women. It is apparently at least via reading this site, a very very big issue.
Maybe your opinion is onto something, Fan. Personally, I am attracted to attractive black men. And I'm attracted to attractive white men.
There was a big stink recently about an add in Thailand about some medication that whitens people, showing a whiter girl looking real happy and a much darker girl looking really sad.
Untill skin cancer became a issue, most Aussies couldn't get tanned quickly enough in summer, wanting to have darker skin.
50
"But liking us solely because of our race can be uncomfortable at best, and creepy as hell at worst."

There are approximately 1 billion people of just about any racial type in the world. Of those, approximately half are your preferred physical sex (if you have one, obviously pan- and bi- types don't need to factor this in). Of those, a solid 10-20% are single and in your age range. That still leaves about 25 million people minimum. So have some reason why out of the 25 million available people of your preferred racial background, you want to be with this one.
52
@BiDanFan Oh yes, the Ciao thing is weird. And then many people nowadays say "hi" and "sorry" instead of the German words but I still haven't figured out in which contexts if is appropriate...
And re mobile vs cell, I usually try to stick with the American version of English (since you have to pick one in academia and I've had more exposure to American English so it's easier) but it doesn't always work.
54
I typically only go for guys who are taller than me which does tend to exclude Asians from the mix..though not always. So according to EDDIE am I somehow a racist? I just thought I was a height queen?
55
I like Mike in Asheville's style.
56
"I was feeling done in
Couldn't win
I'd only ever kissed before
I thought there's no use getting
Into heavy petting
It only leads to trouble
And seat wetting."

... yes we have historically used the term in english speaking countries ;-)
57
Mike@48. I like hairy men too. Though I am sorta glad you haven't bedded any Aussie boys/ men yet. I'm afraid to hear they wear their Akubra's
to bed( it's a Hat), and say thanks mate.
I enjoyed the story, nonetheless. The Jewish stereotype was a little passé.

I wonder if more Black men are branching out than Black women ,
One; because of cultural notions of beauty. US Vogue, a worldwide famous fashion mag, because Anna and Grace..
only once in the last forever, have they put a Black woman on the cover.
Two; the Black men don't want their women telling them what to do and who to fuck.
I don't know how representative this site is I look at, I followed CatB to it.. as he's a southern boy, he should know...
Just the women are seriously down on the men for fucking with white women. Wtf?
I understand their reasoning; Jesus, the method or way to resolve it could be improved upon.
I'm sure the Black women fancy some of the White men. As long as they get no repercussions from the Black men, for crossing over, if they want to, that's one way to go.
Of course one changes one's mind over time and attitudes change, which reflect in who one is attracted to. So, if the women relax a bit, and look around.
Crossing over is very erotic, as I see it.
58
what about perference for dick size?
59
MOL cheats on his boyfriend who he says he loves, and the sex is objectively bad, but instead of regretting it he wants to do it again? I mean, I can see if it was a "wow I forgot how awesome great PIV sex can be" and that got the sex drive amped up... but even bad sex wasn't enough to be regretful? IMO, he's hitting the eject button this relationship, subconsciously or not.
60
Even you, EDDIE. You cite your height (tall!), weight (slim!), and looks (VGL!) as proof you've faced sexual rejection based solely on your race. But short, heavy, average-looking/unconventionally-attractive guys face rejection for not being tall, lean, or conventionally hot, just as you've faced rejection for not being white.


Dan, are you saying everyone has some sort of privilege?

Somebody tell Tumblr.
61
Mr Hunter - Fairly stated, and no grievance held.

*****

Ms Fan - I'd not quite say hijacked. Perhaps there was a reasonable segue missing. Anyway, come to think of it, I suspect that Pretty Milo (at least pre-blonding) and Mr Hunter would think rather alike, especially if we factored out the fabulous bits.
62
As a queer man of a certain age—I'm 45—I feel wounded whenever I am exposed to gay men in New York City, Toronto, or any city where young gay men dominate. Gay men, mostly younger, reject me because of my age and no one admits to their sexual ageism. I understand that sexual attraction is subconscious for many people. But it is unfair for a gay man like myself to be constantly marginalized and rejected. I had the same pain of being gay in high school and the same fears when coming out. Why is there no acceptance, no space, no welcome for me in this youth-painted gay community?…

-or-

As a queer man of a certain weight—I'm 300lbs and 4' tall—I feel wounded whenever I am exposed to gay men in New York City, Toronto, or any city where HWP gay men dominate. Gay men, mostly HWP, reject me because of my weight and no one admits to their sexual fat shaming. I understand that sexual attraction is subconscious for many people. But it is unfair for a gay man like myself to be constantly marginalized and rejected. I had the same pain of being gay in high school and the same fears when coming out. Why is there no acceptance, no space, no welcome for me in this HWP-painted gay community?…

Yeah... see.... fucking ridiculous to complain about other peoples taste in who they fuck.
63
6'1" and 160 pounds? Damn son, you skinny! I'm 6'4" and 230, and I'm decently slim myself!

@56: Touch-a touch-a touch-a touch me! Exactly what I thought of when the term came up!
64
I've never been one to draw the line at race, and I've never understood the people that do. Have a little fun, mix it up a bit, don't get caught up in the truly ridiculous sexual stereotypes. It's just sex. If it's awful, it will be over in a few minutes, and you can move on. (Although I must admit I was always a little intimidated by the guys of any race who were "VGL". That's undoubtedly some sort of bias or inferiority complex on my part, but it is what it is.)

I don't deny that there are racists in the gay "community", but there are also classists and people who exclude others based on their looks or things like their HIV status. After I started working at the Cuff, a few people I had been friends with dropped me because I worked in a bar. A few customers actually told me that they assumed that anyone who worked in a bar was HIV positive. One guy told me that he couldn't date someone who was "as out" as I was (apparently, working in a gay bar is a political statement). For as enlightened and evolved as gay people supposedly are, there's a lot of sort of awful people in our ranks.

65
The height thing is a casual and very deep prejudice in the hetero dating scene. Check out WSM profiles: "Must be taller than me," "Six feet or more," etc.

Luckily, as with any prejudice, you will find those outliers who don't give a shit about those socially constructed "ideals," and there you will likely find smart, un-shallow, self-respecting people as well.
66
@62; you gotta; I'm sorry for your pain. And yes sexual attraction is unconscious.
Your height is fine, your weight you can do something about, it's unhealthy to carry so much weight, and sexual attraction is about attraction to health as well as other intangible qualities.

I would hope there are gay groups who welcome you. We can't make people want to fuck us. We can find our own sexual self love and human self love and see if anyone wants to get in close to us. Take care.
67
@9 portland scribe: Oh, wow. What you just described provides an excellent argument for me to avoid dating altogether if speed dating and dating apps are the latest online social scene. Yoiks!

My all-time least favorite new term: "dating coach". Ugh.
68
@56 truck: Thrill me, chill me, fulfill me.......Creature of the Night! Gotta love Rocky Horror Picture Show. That one is indeed a classic.
69
M? Kidding - Age 45 is the equivalent of 300 pounds and four feet tall? Harsh!
70
Oh Lava, I was sure he was just telling a story.
71
Gay men, mostly whites and Asians, reject me because of my race and no one admits to their sexual racism.


If no one admits it, how does he know it's racism? It could be, people frequently do have racist preferences, but does that explain everybody? In a big city? It could also be a lot of other things (including, as mentioned by others, his resentment). He doesn't give any concrete examples to back up this assertion either (like being fetishized by someone with yellow fever, or his dates assuming he's submissive or effeminate, or flat out saying something racist). And it's entirely possible that he's rejecting a lot of people due to his "VGL" status that he doesn't even count. Sounds to me like a simple case of someone who is sexually frustrated (not at all unusual) latching on to and blaming their frustration on some arbitrary external factor (also not at all unusual). Not all that different from "why are women all crazy bitches". If he wasn't Asian he'd find something else to seize on.

Everyone has preferences and mostly those aren't something we have much control over. It's a good idea to examine one's preferences and try to overcome those that are arbitrary or exclusionary (like a preference for people of one's own ethnic background, or for people who are tall, etc), and I think less of people who aren't willing to do that. But at some point everyone has a right to their preferences, and getting mad at someone for not feeling attracted to you just seems entitled and foolish. We can't all find everyone equally attractive, and most of the people who complain about that fact are just as guilty of judging others as anyone else.
72
Sandiai; you are such a cynic. Even if he was doing some bizaar routine, and I fell for it.. It did sound a little out there. I'm used to out there stories coming from funny land USA... I'm sure there are gay men out there who think others should fuck them, because they are gay.
And in each jokey story a small amount of truth abides.
73
Yeah, I think You_Gotta @62 was just giving some non-racial examples to make a point. And they're right, *everyone* has something about them that they see as holding them back (even if it's "I'm famous and trapped in a bubble where no one sees me as a real person" or "I'm so good-looking no one ever hits on me").
74
@71: NAILED it. You totally dropped the ball on EDDIE, Dan.

"They're just too shallow to appreciate what I have to offer!" is far easier for some to accept than "I have some serious off-putting personality flaws that I'd rather not address." (See: The stereotypical "Nice Guy.") Any time anyone says, "No one will ever date me because I'm [insert perfectly innocuous trait]," overturn a salt shaker and realize that their perception may be ego-shielding sour grapes.

"No one admits to their sexual racism" is a huge red flag. That implies that he calls people racists for rejecting him, and gets irate if they deny that race was the reason for their rejection. It may be that his entitlement, his bitterness, his desperation, and whatever personal flaws underlies his willingness to pull the race card to try to guilt-trip people into sleeping with him are what's really scaring potential partners off.
76
Something about LW1 doesn't compute for me. I have never seen a six foot Asian man, and lots of Asian Men and Women live in and visit Australia.
How the homosexual world operates is really beyond my comprehension. Men only energy, by implication, excludes me.
Just lies are lies, so LW2.. Come clean with your lover and work out your mutual boundaries.
77
So over this argument. PREFERENCES. I don't fuck women, am i a misogynist? No, I'm not attracted to them. I am also not attracted to the majority of people on the planet - including other white men - it is not racism it is attraction. My black friends are not accused of being racist when they only date other black men.

If you see someone and think they are attractive, until you find out their race, and then they become "unfuckable" to you...that's racism. Ironically, my one friend who doesn't believe my theory is a white dude from the south. He loves to get nailed by black dudes...in his words, 'the more ghetto the better.' he plays into the white guy getting dominated by the BBD....racist sex talk and all - THAT'S RACIST!

Everyone these days wants to be a victim, to feel marginalized....maybe that's why you don't get fucked...you never stop whining! Yeah, it would be great if there was a Jon Hamm for each of us, but there isn't, and you're not as special as mommy told you you were. deal with it like a man.
78
Lava @76: I have seen tall Asian men. They're rare, sure, but they are out there. A six-foot-one Asian man may be the equivalent to a six-foot-eight Caucasian... but six-foot-eight Caucasians exist! Perhaps no one is dating EDDIE because they like their Asians short. Joking.
79
You lost me at "unfair." Do two things:

1) Completely abandon any notion of fairness in dating (or life for that matter).

2) Move to Asia for a couple of years. If your luck doesn't change, race isn't the problem (which it isn't if you'd like to save the airfare).
80
Gay men are all misogynists. They reject me out of hand and never admit to their misogyny.

You won't be unfaithful if you can manage to only make promises that you are capable of keeping. Happy poly or monogamish relationships exist.

In old news from last week, prolactin is secreted by both men and women during orgasm.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11835…
The amount seems to correlate with how qualitatively satisfying they find the orgasm to be.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23421…

Also, Venn, I dislike being forcibly coupled. Hunter is interesting to me in general, but not his sexual perspective. I prefer mutual exploration to power games/manipulation/"how do I get her to X". His ideal of aggressive male sex is unattractive to me, and my ideal of egalitarian sex is likely unattractive to him.
81
Maybe people won't date you because you're a stuck up asshole, not because you're Asian.
82
Last I checked, New York, Toronto, and other big cities had thriving communities of queers of color. Some social circles and venues are dominated by gay white men, but they do not lay claim to entire cities.
83
minbrooklyn@77, yes, Jon Hamm is a very attractive man. His heart is sweet too.
Whining has got to be close to the top of my list of behaviours i scan a person on, that they better not have.
And once started, a whine never finishes. Best use that energy to try and solve the problem than whine about it.
look on the bright side of life
84
Uh-ohh....CMDwannabe--you didn't get 69'd this week......
85
@ 36 "Petting" was a term used in sex-ed classes in the 1960's, but it was loosely defined. My interpretation of this activity (when I was 12) was that they were describing mutual masturbation. I may have gotten some help from my go-to reference book on everything mysterious to me in life in those days :..."the Encyclopedia Brittannica". My two cents on the topic.
Re: dating preference WE all have a hierarchy of what we love most and least. The trick is to recognize that within those choices each choice comes with very specific ah, side - effects.
Say a man is into older women,... this means that if they see one another for a time covering some years, the law of actuarial tables is going to slowly extinguish the number of women in that pool.
Re cross- cultural dating
This is an exciting topic. Surely Dan has gotten some letters form women who might prefer a man with different color skin? Perhaps a lesbian who prefers a woman from another race? A gay man who has similar curiosity?
86
@ Auntie
Mx Wanna did indeed, miss the 69 this week, but look who got lucky:....Mr. Venn!
87
@86 sb53: I noticed that--right after my @68 post. I came close ha ha. Congrats, Venn, on hitting this week's 69!
88
Auntie you and I deserve to hit the 69 don't we??
89
sb53 @85,

Yes, that’s my understanding as well. Very generally, necking happened with clothes on (though they might be unbuttoned) and didn’t involve genitals. Petting happened with at least some clothes off and did involve genitals. “Heavy petting” was oral sex.
90
Hmm...the phrase "over the sweater" comes to mind...
91
Alison @ 89
Hands above the belt is petting and under makes it heavy, especially if there is no fabric in between skins.
Oral sex is oral sex.
92
Petting, heavy petting, coping a feel.
Takes one back to days of youth and fumbling hands.
93
@88 sb53: Actually, I did hit 69 once, in a previous Savage Love blog session by a fluke. CMDwannabe was disappointed at the time, thus my surprise that CMD didn't get the highly coveted SL honor this week. I, however, was off by one comment--dang!
95
@94 If you specifically mean me, Hunter, when did I ever say I hated my ex-spouse?
Why would that matter to you, anyway? Is it a slow week for you?
97
As a black woman, I'll try and answer the whole black women give black men hell for marrying/being with white women.
Also, take this with a grain of salt because I am black African as opposed to black American( big difference there: black Americans are usually the descendants of slaves brought over way back when). As a result, I had totally different experiences growing up and none of the whole slavery/civil rights era narrative in my background.

1. A lot of black women are overwhelmingly single mothers. Some will tell you not by choice. They get knocked up and the man bails or ends up in jail. What happens then is there is no father in the home, no financial support,etc...

2. A reason I've been given is that it's historical. A lot of black women were raped by white men during slavery and up until the Jim Crow laws. Some willingly got with white men only for the men to deny their mixed children especially in the South which had miscegenation laws(see the whole Loving v State of Virginia backstory). That treatment and the resulting bitterness gets passed down. So, when a black man denies paternity, it's no worse than what the white man did back then.

3. Black women get mad because they support their men through every thing. A lot of them have known someone who went to jail, got in trouble with the law, stayed while the men worked through their issues. Then when the men finally make it and ditch them for the white woman, they get angry. The idea is the black woman stayed through the suffering and hard times but the minute the man has a modicum of success, they bail on the woman and find white women.

There's also the stereotype that black women are brash and won't let you get away with BS. A lot of black men, it seems, want to essentially keep a harem of women and not be financially responsible for any children. There's also a stereotype that white women are submissive and will let the man get away with their BS. So, black men try and get with white women.

From my friends who are black American, they see getting with white men as advancing the whole systemic oppression of the Black race by Europeans and white men. Plus, they generally point to the divorce rAte as a measure of how fickle white men are. There's also the issue of whether you're a fetish for him or not. With a black guy, you never have to wonder of you're just a fetish.

Again, take all this with a can of salt. If there are other black readers, chime in. I also dated white men mostly. Not because of colour but because of music preferences: it's hard to find a black man who's into megadeth or Manson and won't consider you insane working 3 phones to get tickets to a Rammstein concert(that's speaking from experience)
99
Ms Phile - You're the one who persisted in addressing him by that nearly-LMB nickname. If you've had a change, that's fine. Had I noticed a falling-out, I'd have made that change earlier. I don't direct; I reflect.
100
@SRK you're into Manson! So cool to meet someone into Manson here.
101
I don't know if this group has discussed the line - if there is one - between dating vs hooking up, between meeting people in a social setting vs. using Grindr or a similar hookup app, but it seems to me related to the distinction between preference and prejudice. A photo-and-stats based is all about physical attraction, and race plays into that. A lot of us are looking to fulfill a sexual fantasy, not establish a relationship, so it's not surprising that we end up messaging the same physical types that grab our attention in porn. Attractions are attractions.

But here's my question: I'm a white gay guy with my own preferences: smooth, slim, younger and darker skinned. My fondness for asian, black, latino and middle eastern men doesn't mean I reject all white men (especially the smooth, slim and younger ones), but it comes into play when I hit the app buttons. At one point I put something like "ethnic guys to the front of the line," but I took it down when a white guy said it hurt his feelings.

But EDDIE'S letter has me wondering. If other asian guys (or black, latino, etc.) share his feelings of inferiority, or a preference for white guys interested in hooking up with asian guys, maybe I should state my preferences in the profile. Yeah, some might think me racist, which bothers me, but it's the truth. And it might make the kind of guys I'm attracted to more attracted to me.
102
@97: I'll add a reason #4 that I was told by a black Englishwoman. All through her teen years, she said, the black guys she knew told her over and over that if she got together with white guys she'd be a traitor to the race. Fast forward a few years... and those same guys started showing up with white women. She wasn't too happy about the hypocrisy.
104
SRK93, thank you for commenting.
Funny you felt you had to explain yourself for getting with white men.
it is a fraught area, that is obvious. With much cultural oppression informing it.


105
In Australia, when Blacks and Whites mated, the children were taken from them and put in missionaries.
The Stolen Generation(s).
107
G; did you read that The Weeknd's song from Fifty Shades is up for an Oscar.
Check out the video they did for him
doing it. It's bondage performance art;
That kid is something else.
108
Not directly related to either of the letters, but, as this is an SSM week, I have wondered this week whether Mr Savage would have anything to say about Louis Virtel, who gave a response perhaps best categorized as fierce when his tendency to snap in reaction to having success on a Jeopardy! Daily Double was picked up by the Republicans in some comment they were making on the State of the Union address.

I'm going to guess that, as it was a rather strong takedown (including the anecdata that everyone he knows who is terrified of coming out has staunch Republican parents) of the Republican party (reminiscent of occasions when certain singers didn't want their songs used by certain political campaigns), there's a chance Mr Virtel might make it into a podcast opening rant. If he doesn't (and he'd probably have gotten a Slog post by now if that were going to happen), my best guess is that it may be because of his resemblance to Mr Morrissey, or perhaps the only Jeopardy! personality Mr Savage will ever recognize will be his recent BFF Mr Jennings.

Mr Virtel also supposedly said that the programme skews heavily toward the heteronormative, about which I don't feel able to comment. The complaint feels a bit like that of the first letter; it could just be that the vast majority of A&Qs fall that way, or there could be legitimately recognized erasure or misrepresentation (thinking of all those Wimbledon finals during which the players' box so often contained Ms Navratilova's "friend" of the year - and now, strangely, for some reason I'm not certain how television handled Ms Mauresmo's spouse ten years ago). I don't know that we'd have any regular viewers among the assembled company, but I'd certainly welcome an informed opinion.

109
Watching that video again G; I see there are no Black women there. Not good,
The Weeknd.
Obviously the culture puts the White woman up as the Ideal, and everyone falls for it. Luckily not everyone. Look around, georgeous, georgeous Black women.

110
@97

The "Black women are mad because they support their men through everything" argument is very one sided. Have you ever asked black men what their perspective is?

Black women often do end up raising kids alone because their men are in jail, but as many studies show, those black men that arent stay in their kids lives. THey dont 'bail'. Thats the 'thug stereotype'.

In the 70s - 90s, in order to receive social aid, women with kids could not have a man in the house. Hence a culture of "your man cant stay with you" became very prevelent among black women. It was never that black men 'fuck and ditch'. Most black men with kids whos mothers they arent not married to will tell you their frustration that their kids mothers will with hold contact (but readily collect child support checks).

Sure, black women who dont get a ring but have a baby will be angry at their fathers. But, sex is a two way street. Unless they were assaulted, both parties could have taken the 'wear protection' route. Having a baby is a 'attention getter' for a lot of Poor, urban black women. It is a good way to make the argument of "Look how hard Im struggling without a man"...never taking into consideration the thought that the man may have wanted to be with her, but she didnt want him. A lot of black men notice this at socializing events, seeing black women with kids looking to pick up men. Theres nothing wrong with that, but at the same time it doesnt fit well with the "black men are fucking and leaving" ideal that white america has permeated the American consciousness to vilify black men.
111
SRK @97: Thanks for your perspective. I can see a parallel of your point 3 with lesbians who get particularly incensed when a bi woman "leaves them for a man." (I put that in quotation marks because it's usually simply "dated a man next," but the dumpee takes it more personally than that.) And point 2, the history of abuse of black women by white men, is a good explanation of why there are few white man/black woman couples.

I understand another reason black women don't like it when white men date black women is that this thins the dating pool, particularly when black women are not prized in equal numbers by members of other races.

Do white couples have a higher divorce rate than couples of other races? Is the "fickle" stereotype deserved? I haven't heard this before.

Hunter @103: I thought that saying was about hair dye? ;)
112
Baystater @101: "At one point I put something like "ethnic guys to the front of the line," but I took it down when a white guy said it hurt his feelings." Seriously? Call the Waambulance because some white guy has had his feelings hurt by the fact that HE'S not getting the priority for a change. If lots of people are putting "no blacks" in their ads, the least you can do is help out with a self-esteem boost and put your preferences into your ad. You're not saying "no whites" (and even if you were, the phrase that comes to mind is GET OVER YOURSELF).
113
On race and divorce:
These stats give divorce rates as: Blacks 48.4%, non-blacks 44.2%, Hispanics 46.5%.
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/article…