"Of course, it's one thing for men—fifty percent of the population in liberal Seattle— to take in all of this and then proclaim themselves to be feminists or allies of women. (Sometimes, though, this can be a cover or misdirection.) To speak up and speak out when people they know act in harmful and misogynistic ways. And to stop manspreading, mansplaining, and doing all the stupid shit that men do."

So all Seattle mens are evil misogynist rapist mansplaining manspreaders?*

You know what? Fuck you. I don't rape people, "manspread" or "mansplain". I do stupid shit, of course, but not the stupid shit you mean.

Hate is the new black and nowhere is it more apparent than on SLOG.

*see what I did there? No, I'm sure you don't.

>The idea that what happened to her wouldn't be considered sexual assault may be the most devastating part. She feels like the police aren't on her side, that they insinuated "my rape wasn't really a rape." She doesn't want to go through that experience again by reporting what happened to the Seattle police.

It wasn't a rape, you put yourself in a situation you could have left and then something may have happened that unfortunately cannot be corroborated because you didn't go and get a rape kit done.

But we can't tell women to not take (repeated) drinks from a stranger because they could get raped because that would be victim-blaming.

How about the "women always make the right choice" aspect of rape culture? No Hickey shouldn't have done whatever after he got these women drunk but who the fuck goes to a stranger's house or a fucking motel and accepts blackout-drunk levels of drinks from them. It does a disservice to younger girls seeing these examples of "you can make any mistake you want and it won't really be your fault because the man's always worse."

Encourage personal responsibility instead of bringing out the "VICTIM BLAMER" bullhorn. Common fucking sense.

three prime examples of Rape Culture right here

Did this guy physically force anyone to do anything against their will?

the only people who can conceivably convince rapists not to rape are other men who know them; fathers, brothers, friends. but sometimes, those people are idiots, like the kids that got texts from Alex Ivanov saying he was going to kill everyone at that party in Mukilteo, and did nothing.

you could scream at all men 24/7 telling them not to rape, but a small percentage are not going to listen. rapists are rapists by nature, not nurture.

@2

I believe what you've got there is what the kids call "#notallmen".

And that hashtag might have more to it than you think it does.

@5

Did the guy who just sold you a very nice bridge force you to do anything against your will?

@5

Yes.

@1

I know you're not so stupid that you equate presumption of innocence with being above suspicion or being exempt from investigation. But then you do tend to contort yourself to excuse this type of behavior by men.

@7 Try this on for size;

"Of course, it's one thing for black men—five percent of the population in liberal Seattle— to take in all of this and then proclaim themselves to not be criminals. (Sometimes, though, this can be a cover or misdirection.) To speak up and speak out when people they know act in harmful and criminal ways. And to stop robbing, assaulting, and doing all the stupid shit that black men do."

You think maybe a black man reading that might, I don't know, say to himself something like "What the fuck"?

What do all the male friends and associates of Hickey think and feel, now that he's been exposed? What are they doing differently, now?

You work at the Stranger, Ansel. Why don't you ask them?

@12

Oh, that's too cute.

So you're also one of those people so oblivious to what actually goes on in black communities that you think there's no black condemnation of black-on-black crime, and no effort on the part of black leaders to address the problem?

@14

I don't know what goes on in the black community? I think there's no condemnation of black on black crime? You got all that from that comment?

You sure you know my race?

Or even my sex?

Whatever.

I will note you didn't address my point AT ALL. I can't tell much about you from your comment here but I do know why you didn't.

When I see blanket statements abusive of all men or all black men (or all women for that matter, or all muslims or all gay men, etc....) I will call it out. Here or in person.

In fact, that exactly what the little journalist pipsqueak said I *should* do; "To speak up and speak out when people they know act in harmful or misogynistsic (or racist, or homophobic or islamophobic...) ways". What Herz wrote is offensive for precisely the same reason racists and homophobes are - he tried to paint all people in a class with the same brush.

Thinking. You're doing it wrong.

@5 Yes. He definitely "physically forced" more than one person to do things against their will. It's in the followup to the original Matt Hickey article.

The idea that violence is the line where it becomes "real" rape is repugnant to me, but even by that standard this guy is a rapist.

@16

Yep. That's 1000% #notallmen, all right.

You don't understand that the hashtag isn't trying to say all men are rapists. And you're obviously not willing to make any effort to understand what it is about, either.

@14: COMPLETELY out of left field.
I think what MikeyC was trying to say is that it's wrong to collectively punish (or demonize) a demographic for the crimes of a few.

Yes, it is the responsibility of men to model and encourage good moral standards in which people (regardless of gender) are treated as people rather than as objects. No, men are not responsible for the crimes of other men (unless they are personally complicit in the act). Yes, rape and the lurking danger of rape are more damaging to women than misandrist sentiment is to men in our society. No, that doesn't mean misandrist sentiment is okay or excusable.
Social justice movements seem to be very prone to falling into this pit of what is more properly termed social vengeance. Because bigotry by X against Y is more prevalent and damaging in society, so the reasoning goes, bigotry by Y against X is somehow okay. And that's a notion I reject entirely. If you want a society free from hatred and prejudice, that means ALL hatred and prejudice. You don't get to pick and choose which kinds are bad and which kinds are good; it's all the same kind of insidious stiff-necked evil.

Venomlash, as usual, gets it completely. Thank you.

@19 Yeah that's it spelled out. Amazing it needs to be.

With abject apologies to Dorothy Parker; you can lead people like robotslave to water but you can't make him/her think.

@2

I get what you're saying, but Isn't it being a little sensitive arguing that its some men and not men? Rape, violence, manspreading, mansplaining, etc are primarily problems within the male gender. It seems thin skinned and missing the point if we just point at other men and say 'not me, its other guys.' Its not addressing the problem, its just deflecting it and making you feel better.

@23

I do see your point and it's a good one. Young master Herz is frequently precipitate in his writing and sometimes says risible and ludicrous things. I would only ask you to consider my response @12 and then apply your criticism to that hypothetical "what the fuck?!" guy. You think that you'd make the same comments to that guy?

@23
You put "manspreading" and "mansplaining" in same sentence with rape?
You do see the humor, I hope.

For anyone who's actually interested in why "Not All Men Are Like That" is a problematic argument in discussions of violence against women, here's a starting point.

But not for you, MikeyC. You don't need to read it because you're totally definitely not a part of the problem at all.

This kind of sex is utterly shitty behavior, but the fallout isn't "rape culture," because a legal definition of rape hasnt been met. And there's good reason not to change it. "Sex under false pretenses" would put everybody in jail - women too - because everybody I know engages in sex with the expectation of something in return, and those expectations aren't always met. Rape as a criminal violation is designed to right the inherent power imbalance via physical strength that men have over women, although it is technically possible for women to rape men too. Rape can only be about failure to get consent to engage in sexual activity before or during such activity. I'm afraid the premise of this article is a bit of a stretch, but by all means, drag this guy through the mud, because he is legitimately an asshole, but not a criminal.

@24
Ha. You want me to whitemansplain? Are you trying to trap me? I am not black so I'm definitely not going to tell that guy how to feel about it.

I do see what you are saying. I just think men, particularly white men, need to grow bit thicker skin. Myself included.

@25
I don't see the humor, but perhaps we have different definitions on mansplaining and manspreading. There is a mans feeling of entitlement to space and a fat dude comically spreading his legs to take up 3 seats on the bus. There is Stephen Colbert explaining Beyonce videos and there is Kurt Metzger telling young women how to handle being raped. They are real things that had joke-y names attached to them.

@2 wait what are you so worked up about?
Ansel: "And to stop manspreading, mansplaining, and doing all the stupid shit that men do."
You: "So all Seattle mens are evil misogynist rapist mansplaining manspreaders?"

What Ansel is talking about is exactly men *not doing* it.
It's illogical to think Ansel is saying all men are evil yadda yadda.

You haven't seemed the type AFAIK to fly off the handle for this, what going on?

@6 "you could scream at all men 24/7 telling them not to rape, but a small percentage are not going to listen. rapists are rapists by nature, not nurture."

It's not just a sprinkling of bad seeds, though. For your stereotypical jump out of the bushes rapist, okay, why would they ever talk to you and what could you possibly say. But it's more common that people get somebody blind drunk and rape them, or use pressure tactics that cross the line to coercive. And those things they do openly (in their group), and they talk about them. They don't consider it unacceptable. They certainly don't consider it rape.

@6 to put a number to it, about 5 - 10% of men asked (varying in different samples) said "yes" to one of these two questions.

"1. Have you ever been in a situation where you tried, but for various reasons did not succeed, in having sexual intercourse with an adult by using or threatening to use physical force (twisting their arm, holding them down, etc.) if they did not cooperate?
2. Have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone, even though they did no want to, because they were too intoxicated (on alcohol or drugs) to resist your sexual advances (e.g., removing their clothes)?"

These actually don't cover all legal (attempted) rapes under most laws.
http://www.davidlisak.com/wp-content/upl…

Yes Ansel, public transportation faux pas easily solved with an "excuse me" if you need the seat that the scary and possibly ethnic bus man is seeking lebensraum for his legs in is exactly like forced sexual intercourse.

@3 So if you go on a date and your date invites you in afterwards and give you a few strong drinks, then some big dudes come in and beat you to a pulp, take all your money, your phone and your car, force you to take them to your place and take all your electronics, then throw you in a dumpster, the police should just laugh in your face and do nothing, because it's totes your stupid ass' fault, for going to her place and drinking, correct?

Seen the news lately?

@1
There is no presumption of innocence to men and women -men are always presumed guilty. This is 1984 For Progressives.

But Q: do we apply same presumption of guilt to FtM Transpeople?

@31, 32: we agree. that's the percentage I'm talking about.

some of those men can be reached by education of one sort or another before they rape, but some won't be. I believe it's innate, genetic, like the violent rages (some) men go into when they experience rejection from a partner (or imagined partner). or pedophiles.

nature gets discounted for nurture theories like "rape culture" these days. it's not one or the other, but there really are bad seeds, unfortunately.

@19 & @27 have excellent points. I think Ansel's posting a little heavy handed.

The other night a young woman friend of mine told me she got blotto drunk after several shots of tequila a few nights earlier. Evidently, she blacked-out and was carried home by two male friends who had accompanied her. She ended up at the apt. of one of them. She woke up in the bed of the one friend. He slept on his couch.

I found this candid account quite fascinating in light of this discussion. The two men, gentlemen did exactly what they were supposed to, nothing. I, myself have taken a drunken woman to her place and "didn't take advantage" of her way back in the day. I let her alone to sleep it off. I don't nor do my friends drink to excess anymore. Haven't for decades.

While drinking to excess happens, my good friend may have been foolish it's obvious that not all men "rape" in situations such as this. I think the recent story of film director, Nate Parker and a rape that occurred 17 years ago is an example of what must never be done. It is most repugnant what he did though he was never convicted of a crime.

http://variety.com/2016/film/news/nate-p…

@36 sure I could buy that some basic willingness to rape comes from 'nature'. But actually doing it depends on the environment too. Motive and means, take away either one and it doesn't happen, basically. I'd claim very few people are so fucked up that they're predestined to attempt rape no matter what.

In some of these studies, these men describe in detail how they choose their victims, how they choose their situations, so they're likely not to get into trouble. If they couldn't do that, they probably wouldn't rape. And part of that is social tolerance and "were you really raped, you don't have a single bruise".

I think it behooves any prospective journalist, every time they write an article on it, to define 'rape culture.' The confusion on the meaning of the term will allow it to go the way of "grunge" and "hippie." Terms so loose they are nearly meaningless.

On a more concrete note, as someone with casual acquaintance to Mr. Hickey, he was not someone who liked to spend his time around guys. Obviously, he preferred the company of women. He was not someone who was comfortable around other men, and from what I observed, did not have any close male friendships. What that says about his actions, I'll leave up to you.

Well, these comments are a shit show. Sorry, I'm late to the party, but as a feminist who cares deeply about combating rape culture and treating sex work like work, I do want to say a few things.

The law you are looking for is "theft of services." RCW 9A.56.050 Matt Hickey deserves to take a seat next to Terry Richardson at the Gifted Predator table, no doubt. And his friend really should be ashamed of herself for listening to him brag about these exploits and doing nothing in response. But what is described here is not rape, and it's not rape culture that prevents it from being perceived as such.

Sex work is work. Hickey got these women to perform a work service under false pretense. He stole their labor from them. It does absolutely no good at all in terms of fighting rape culture to blur the lines on freely given consent. Calling this rape is 100% feeding into the rape culture idea of "oh it wasn't rape, she just changed her mind after the fact." Because that is exactly what these women are doing! To respect women's agency means there are no take-backs.They have every right to feel violated, but the violation was commercial, not sexual. They consented to the sex.

@41 is mostly right.

But I suspect, in terms of Hickey's intent, it was rape.

IOW the thrill of the act for him was the scam of not getting "true" consent itself. Otherwise why would he not merely hire these women for sex and be up front about it? Because he wanted to humiliate them.

And, man, if that's not rape it sure is a creepy-ass slippery slope leading right down to it.

Rape culture is perpetuated when we tolerate the idea that men are entitled to use women's bodies for sexual gratification by any means necessary (regardless of the terms women wish to set for themselves for fucking someone), with impunity, via society giving them justification and making excuses for their predatory behavior. So yes, this very much falls under rape culture. Was it rape? I think if you have been coerced into having sex with someone you wouldn't have normally had sex with of your own free will, then yes. Porn isn't rape because performers know it's porn. But there's a few huge reasons those "audition" videos use actors and not regular people, and the biggest reason is probably legality, not an aesthetic choice.

@41, please look up "rape by fraud." There are other applicable laws here.

@42, I agree with you that Hickey's intent was to have sex with women who otherwise would not have consented to it, but I'm skeptical that his primary motivation was to humiliate them. He thought they were hot, he wanted to fuck them, he knew he had to give them some extra incentive because he wasn't attractive enough on his own, so he ran this scam and probably took some extra pleasure from "haha, can't believe that dumb bitch fell for it." But overall, I'm not sure I buy that he cares enough about a fellow human being's feelings to be primarily motivated by humiliating them. I called the guy a gifted predator because he's figured out how to get what he wants without committing a sex crime.

@44 I know damn well what "rape by fraud" is and there's plenty of good reasons it is rarely applied outside of situations where the assailant is impersonating another real live separate human being that the victim regularly consents to have sex with. Expanding it beyond that leads to abuses and targeting of vulnerable people. It doesn't result in people like Matt Hickey being charged with rape, it gets people like Brandon Teena killed.

What Hickey did isn't "rape by fraud" as much as "fraud in the inducement." There's no civil remedy for that unless he tries to enforce the contract (which he wouldn't, because he's already had specific performance). The criminal penalty should be theft of services.

@43 The longer I'm at this, the less patience I have for people who approach rape culture through such a strict gender norm. Guys rape each other. Women rape men. Women rape each other. Rape culture is about creating systems and excuses that help us disregard the sexual autonomy of our fellow human beings when it interferes with the outcome we desire. Hickey sounds like he's got a serious empathy deficit and he's certainly skilled at exploiting rape culture, but that doesn't make his actions fit the legal definition of rape. When you act like there's no difference between being misled and being coerced, *YOU* are the person disregarding the sexual autonomy of these women because it suits your desired result. What you are doing is not a tenth as damaging as what rapists do, but you're still contributing to the mindset of Monday-morning quarterbacking the consent that was or was not given in the moment between two individuals. Don't do that!

@41, 45: You, I like you.
Deft and persuasive argumentation, with a willingness to break out of the groupthink that too often paralyzes societally liberal/feminist/social justice-oriented circles of thought and actually apply the core principles of the philosophy (even in atypical situations) through measured reasoning and reference to law and precedent. That's a comment that gives the reader something to THINK about! Brava, SophieX!

I used to be a male feminist but now if I quote Angela Davis to a liberal feminist under 30, I get accused of being a rape apologist. Any nuanced debate by a man in this space can inspire a witch hunt. I used to love to be involved in these discussions, but they have become too risky in the last few years. It's not even that you have to be a feminist man in order to not get called out for wanting a two way discussion... you have to be a very specific type of liberal feminist. I just can't do it. I have my own ideas and I cant risk the witch hunts. That said, if I can help rid this city of a rapist.. I will do so at the first opportunity.

@34

these morons always come back with strawmen instead of actual counterarguments

"what about unrelated ridiculous thing you can't defend with that one thing you mentioned tied in? huh?"

this isn't high school, come on.