My heart goes out to the kid who was terrified, and only going along to please his dad on Father's Day.

The rest of it leaves me unmoved. Why anyone would want to go visit the final resting place of 1500 mostly poor and working class souls who died because of corporate hubris and greed is beyond my comprehension.

And I'm so tired of people refering to these guys as "adventurers". This was just a bunch of ghouls with more money than sense, most of whom wouldn't know about the Titanic if it weren't for that schlocky movie.

“This program has led to China's leadership in electric vehicles, solar power, and hi-tech.”

Got any statistics or examples to support this broad, sweeping statement, Charles? Of course not. Of the major economic players, China is the last nominally Marxist state left standing, so per Charles’ trust-fund Marxism, it must simply be beating the U.S. in all important economic areas.

In reality, the only production statistic in which Marxist states have ever consistently led is in turning their own citizens into corpses. China’s Great Leap Forward killed more humans than did the First World War, and possibly a number equivalent to the Second World War: “Millions of people died in China during the Great Leap, with estimates ranging from 15 to 55 million, making the Great Chinese Famine the largest or second-largest[1] famine in human history.” (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#:~:text=The%20Great%20Leap%20Forward%20was,large%20and%20small%20scale%20labor)

@dewey and
speaking of
re-writing
History

hubris declared the
Titanic 'UNSinkable' tho
the chambers designed to
contain any h2o Intrusions
were OPEN on Top & when the
1st one was OVERTOPPED by in-
rushing h20 pulled the Titanic into
its watery Grave. 'hubris.' look it up

it's also what took down the poor
teenager Catalina mourns @1 &'ll take
down this Country about as well as Chas so
thoroughly describes in this most excellent Essay.

you don't "like" it?
well I spose that's
a damn Shame

welcome to today's
America Inc LLC
& lol, baby.

the Fleecers
& the Fascists
have Taken Over.

all's they Need is
a deSantos or a
trumpfster to
Finalize the
Deal.

oh and the Titanic's Captain
on her Maiden Voyage
wanted to make a
brand New cross-
Atlantic speed
record

his ship
"Unsinkable"
just What did he
have to Worry about?

hubris
baby.

History
Repeats.

Raindrop dear that’s remarkably obtuse, even for you. The ship hit an iceberg because they were ignoring warnings in favor of speed, there weren’t enough lifeboats because that would have cost too much, and those third class passengers were kept below decks until the rich were loaded up.

@1, @9: While I won’t dispute that hubris and greed helped create the Titanic disaster, the ship was actually carrying the legally-mandated number of lifeboats for its size and class. While this number was far too low, in the event it didn’t matter. The crew’s spectacular incompetence had them launching the earlier lifeboats each at a fraction of capacity, and when the Titanic sank, it was still carrying lifeboats which had not been touched, let alone loaded and launched. The Titanic could have carried lifeboats sufficient for five times as many persons aboard, and the death toll would still have been about the same.

“…third class passengers were kept below decks until the rich were loaded up.”

But the rich were not loaded up; the crew didn’t make any effort to get even the women from first class into the lifeboats, let alone anybody else.

Tensorna dear, don't you think that the "legally mandated number of lifeboats for its size and class" was in turn an example of what we would today call regulatory capture by an industry that people profits over people? One of the good things to come out of the disaster was that they changed that requirement.

I hate to admit it, but I went through a Titanic Nerd phase during elementary school when I discovered "A Night To Remember" at the library (this was decades before the Cameron movie came out, but that book was also made into a movie). It was said that the reason several of the boats didn't launch was because the boat was listing so much that they couldn't launch several on the opposite side of the boat from the gash.

As for who survived and who didn't I believe it was 60% of the first class, 40% of second and 25% of the steerage that made it through.

@11: Excellent job of missing the point, dear. The Titanic’s crew utterly failed to use anything close to the lifeboat capacity they had, so how could giving them more lifeboats have helped the passengers’ survival rates? Of course there should have been lifeboat capacity, plus margin, for everyone aboard, but it does not matter how many seat belts your automobile has, none of them can save you if you don’t buckle up.

Very soon after impact, the crew knew the ship was doomed. The crew also knew they could fill every lifeboat and still have no chance of saving everyone. Yet the first lifeboats were dispatched nearly empty, and with able-bodied male passengers aboard them. A competent crew could have loaded every lifeboat with women and children, and had them all away before the listing of their sinking ship could have posed a significant problem.

The argument of survival by class turned out to fail under critical examination:

“Although we initially thought that passenger class would have the strongest effect on survival overall, we found that the relationship didn’t hold when we broke down the population into men, women, and children. We found that embarkment point also had an impact on survival, since those embarking at Cherbourg survived at much higher rates than the other two embarkment points.” (https://cs.brown.edu/courses/cs100/students/project28/#:~:text=85.7%25%20of%20children%20in%20first,children%20in%20third%20class%20survived.)

As the survival by class argument did not withstand statistical inquiry, the simplest answer for greater loss of life in third class comes from those passengers being physically farther from the lifeboats than any other passengers were at the moment the ship hit the iceberg.

unbridled capitalism
very very Bad:

sayonara 'supreme' court
adiosa EPA IRS Housing
becomes Unaffordable
healthicare Forget it
et cetera

and yeah RMS Titianic was built neither for Speed nor Icebergs
nor a Capitan dying (not Literally - please) to Please his Corporate Masters & make a Name for their brand new Ship* now lying on the bottom of the Atlantic -- along with another 'master' of the hubris with His ship and paying passengers' remains lying on the bottom a quarter-mile away

*'pedal to the Metal
lads!' & then went
& had a little
Nappy.

(oh it's Not
a gas pedal?!
who tf knew?)

crazybiker dear, I rather think that none of us should be claiming to be an expert on the Titanic (which I most certainly did not. But at least I got that particularly nerdy embarrassing portion of my life done with early). That was the explanation given in a book that I read in the 1970's. (See also "Raise The Titanic" in which the boat is bought back to the surface and floated to NYC for some reason having to do with - of course - The Russians. That was before we knew where the cursed thing was.)

Tensorna dear, if you wish to blame the tragedy on the crew, have at it. I probably would have commandeered a life boat and got the hell out of there myself. I'll return to my original point: They're dead. No amount of schlocky movies or ghoulish tourism will bring them back. And I fail to see the value in any "research" on the issue. It's been researched to, well, death.

Now everyone dry your tears and unlock the powder room door. Catalina wants to patch her makeup and freshen up.

nyt: Submersible Expert
Raised Safety Concerns
After 2019 Trip on Titan

After hearing a loud cracking sound
during the dive [WHAT THE FUCK?],
the expert, Karl Stanley, emailed
OceanGate’s C.E.O., Stockton Rush,
to urge him to hold off on future trips.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/23/us/titan-safety-warnings-titanic.html

if That's not a
No-Brainer
Nothing is

top nyt readers' comment:
I am sorry for the loss for the families of the people on this trip, but I believe a question must be asked. This was an unnecessary trip for extremely rich people who like extreme adventures. Who is paying for the millions and millions of dollars of public funds that had to be deployed as a result of this "fun and exciting" trip?

Over 500 refugees, including children and babies, just died at sea trying to escape death and war, and the world did nothing but say it was their fault for getting on the boat and too bad. But when an ultra-rich man and his son die it's world news and called a tragedy.

Yet again we see that the lives of a few ultra wealthy is much more valuable than hundreds. if not thousands of human beings fleeing war, death, and oppression. I for one am tired of seeing the billionaire class take every resource they want while the rest of us can just die and the world just yawns and says oh well.

-- Christine Granados; Morro Bay, CA

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/23/us/titan-safety-warnings-titanic.html#commentsContainer

oh & let's let
the regulations-
despising Billionaire
pick up the Tab for any
Search and Rescue bills

which're Bound to
be ENORMOUS

Socializing risks
privatizing Profits
may be the American
Way but it's Time for a Change.

Dear, dependable Raindrop - always so eager to chime in with mealy-mouthed platitudes and inane observations.

Yes, my assertion is that they are dead, largely because of corporate hubris and greed (both in the original tragedy and this latest submarine mishap). If people want to get worked up about an Edwardian-era maritime disaster, go watch the movie again.

@19, etc.: Catalina, the purpose of the Titan’s expeditions had nothing to do with the loss of life a century ago. It was to study natural processes at work on the wreck, such as the iron-eating bacteria now consuming the Titanic’s hull. (Had you learned anything about this topic before commenting on it, you would have known this.) The Titan was actually engaged in scientific work, using an adventure-tourism gimmick to finance it.

The White Star Line was completely responsible for the loss of the Titanic and most of the persons aboard. From allowing a known speedster of a captain to run it into the ice field, to allowing an untrained crew to mismanage the evacuation, it was corporate greed, hubris, and incompetence all the way down.

“Nothing could be more neoliberal than the Titan, the ravings of its dead CEO, its form of tourism, billionaire tourism.”

Stockton Rush had also designed and flown his own aircraft. 100-125 years ago, this was a popular way for rich guys to die, as were other forms of adventure tourism. Thus, by Charles’ logic, neoliberalism was alive and well over a century ago.

“This program has led to China's leadership in electric vehicles, solar power, and hi-tech.”

And you’re complaining about our lack of regulatory oversight? How many times in recent memory have we heard of industrial disasters in China due to someone cutting corners? So, yes they may lead in those sectors, but at what cost?

@23: Charles rarely bothers reading his own writing, as we can see here. He first describes Boeing as a “parastatal organization,” then goes on to claim, “The US's economy … blocked state interventions in all other sectors of the economy but finance,” so I guess Boeing was exclusively a finance organization during the decades before the Biden Administration.

Tensora dear, I'm glad we can find common ground on the cause of the original disaster.

I did see the reference to scientific study, and I gave it a serious side eye. There are certainly more efficient and effective ways to study that phenomena, and the way you present it makes it sound like the crew and passengers of the SS Minnow were there to study oceanography

@25: “… I'm glad we can find common ground on the cause of the original disaster.“

That it was entirely the fault of the White Star Line was established in the official British inquiry after the disaster, and never seriously questioned. You were just ineffectually quibbling over the details, dear.

“There are certainly more efficient and effective ways to study that phenomena,”

Back when I engineered scientific instruments, our oceanographer customers would own or lease boats for voyages all of the time, because, well, that’s how they studied phenomena far out in the ocean. If you have suggestions for them on how they might do this better, I’m sure they’d appreciate hearing from you.

Oh tensorna, how you do prattle on. But that's OK. I think we've beat this topic to death.

“I probably would have commandeered a life boat and got the hell out of there myself.”

You and Billy Zane would’ve made for a dashingly raking couple of lifeboat pirates, dear.