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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
What's wrong with "that chick's hot," anyway? A lot of interesting conversations get started that way. Say I start out as a stereotype, and become an actual person thirty seconds in. Is that not a sophisticated enough way to break down stereotypes? I think the mace would do a lot more damage, perpetuating stereotypes...
So yeah, I take offense that my fellow feminists are willing to go so far as to say that I "don't understand the implications" (I am knowledgeable and excelled in Women's Studies ps.) I would be loath to insult others in that way. In fact, making it all about how a woman behaves and dresses, and saying "women can't just do what they want despite sexism" _is_ sexist, and frames the issue in totally the wrong way.
I have strong (obviously unpopular) opinions, but I shouldn't assume that those with different ideas just haven't thought the issues through or don't have opinions that are equally as valid. I really didn't mean to be condescending and I'm sorry it came across that way.
make your own, you imagination bankrupt.
So while I think it's complicated, and that there is still a fair amount of sexism in the U.S., I have to say that I think the idea that women should be able to wear whatever they want, sleep with whomever they want, *and still expect and demand that they not be harassed, raped, or stigmatized* is a vital part of full equality and empowerment.
We can't demolish the "she was asking for it" excuse if we can't accept the idea that women must be free to wear skimpy clothes with impunity.
Sexy clothes can and should invite people to objectify you -- whether you're man or woman, gay or straight -- but the feminist ideal we should be shooting for is a world where we can objectify each other and still respect each other as fully human, right?
As for the whole pre-packaged "sexy" costume thing, that's really more a taste issue. The hipster/d.i.y. aesthetic frowns on conventional, mass market Halloween costumes just as it would on generic mall style any other day of the year. But if you want to be a pre-packaged "sexy nurse" and I want to make a homemade Campbell's soup can costume and wear it with red fishnets, we're both being "sexy" -- and we should both have the right to do so. (And if we want to wear something that's not sexualized at all, we should also feel free to do so.)
Like you said @109, we should be be able to wear whatever we want and not be attacked or harassed because of it. But dressing slutty doesn't solve that. Like I said above, empowerment is when we have ownership of our choice. If I want to wear modest clothes, it because I want to wear modest clothes, not because it is expected of me or I need to protect myself from harassment. If I want to dress sexy, it is because I want to dress sexy, not because "that's what you do" on Halloween.
Heteroween will stop being a sexist concept when we have ownership of our choices and it stops being seen as a big party for women to dress in a titillating way for men (w/o being called whores) while men dress as whatever and hit on said women.
Why not? To whom have you given them?
Where whatever the phuck you want. the end.
Ownership of choice my ass.
Kersey,
From whom has this expectation come from? Other than in your own mind, how have you determined this expectation exists in general?
As a heterosexual man who likes sex and sexy women very much, I can say that I don't expect all women to dress sexy on Halloween. Based only on past experience with this date, I do expect there to be a mix of sexy costumes, stupid ones, store bought and so on with many variations and repetitions.
It seems really to be about being able to express some aspect of oneself on a certain day. Some men and women like to show off their sexy bodies and can't do it as much as they would otherwise like, so they do it on halloween. Some do it to get looks and feel desired. Some only want to be desired by the men and some want all takers.
Do you really think that women are attacked and harrassed just because of what they wear? Old and/or the disabled are attacked on the street/targeted in their homes by sick people who just want to take what they want, no matter who they take it from. The desire exists within these sick people. Who they ultimately pick to attack may depend on many triggers and one may be clothing.
"Oversexualization of women affects me and my rights to choose not to be sexual."
Isn't oversexualization when you're both too sore to go again?
If you think that violent criminals are the way they are becuase of anything but how f-up they are inside, then you should think again. Instead of walking home alone, maybe you should walk with a friend if you haven't pissed all of them off already by your whining.
You don't think men are assaulted on the street when they walk home alone? Violent crime affects every segment of society! Even the police can be directly attacked on the street.
G
I wholeheartedly agree with your argument. I've tried finding people with similar views for quite some time here in Seattle, but with no luck so far. The vast majority of feminists, or those concerned with gender issues, seem to be in the "sex-positive" feminism camp, or they at least seem to feel "I wouldn't do that MYSELF, but women should be able to do whatever they want". What they never seem to address, is what you are pointing out, that people CAN do whatever they want, but it doesn't mean it will be empowering for themselves or women as a whole just because they want it to be. These actions/statements/ideas don't exist in a vacuum, and context makes all the difference. Seeing the relevancy of "the personal is political" doesn't seem very common anymore. Thank you for contributing your views to this post as much as you have, because it is a welcome and unexpected break from the predominant viewpoint. If you would like to talk more, I have a profile on The Stranger Lovelab, and my username is AmalgaMan.
If I was trying to act like a feminist to "get laid", then it seems like I'd be picking a pretty poor strategy. I'd say feminists are not a majority of women, and the feminists who share shellym's views are an even smaller minority of feminists (as she even says in comment #106 that her views are "obviously unpopular"). If I wanted to act some way just to increase my chances with women, then why wouldn't I try to win over the majority of women who DON’T have views anything like shellym's?
I am merely trying to share ideas with, and connect with, someone with whom we could mutually relate to each other. Since these viewpoints ARE so unpopular, there aren't many people around who you can discuss these issues and agree with.
If you don’t have a Stranger profile shellym, but would like to talk, you can email me at shishnal@gmail.com.
You are an idiot for suggesting that she "get a boyfriend" to walk her home.
it makes me sad that people are jumping on shellym and using negative stereotypes of feminists to critique her.
she is articulately bringing up some great points, and anyone with a brain would realize that she isn't just trying to suppress women or their sexuality. her arguments are much more nuanced.
i am "sex-positive" and support women in exerting sexuality in whatever way empowers them and makes them comfortable.
if sexy Halloween was all about women and men alike going out, looking hottt, and then engaging in consensual, awesome, crazy good sex, then I'd be like, "fuck yea!"
i DON'T, however, believe that sexy Halloween costumes are necessarily empowering or positive, and in fact, i think they usually AREN'T.
i'm not policing what people wear -- i think that if you wanna bear all, go for it, and for many people this can be gratifying and fun.
but in my experience, i know many women who dress sexily on Halloween not because they enjoy the "liberation" it brings or some other reason, but simply because their single aim is to attract hetero male attention, which they think will make them happy. when they fail to attract positive attention, they are disappointed.
i stress: i am not trying to say that i think other women are incapable of making their own decisions or thinking for themselves. but i do think that hegemonic culture places a high premium on looking a CERTAIN way and attracting a CERTAIN kind of attention....it's all well and good if weirdos on Capitol Hill feel empowered to dress however they like, but at the end of the day, the majority of cases we're talking about here are happening on college campuses across the country, where, NO, women are not "empowered" by sexy costumes. they end up feeling pressured, inadequate, and disappointed in themselves.
And last year, my husband was Bad Santa and I was Mrs. Santa's Sister...he got all kinds of pretty girls to sit on his lap. :-)
Well, they judge us if we ask for candy if we're over 14 or so.
What bothers me most is that those "sexy" costumes are cheaply made and are basically the same basic outfit in different colors with a little prop. Show me some ingenuity, creativity, and such, and maybe skin, too -- now that's really sexy.
Just a little Twisty truth got folks here all het up, hmm?
Thanks for the sanity.
On the other hand, I still disagree with her. My reaction to her and other feminists is always a desire to ask them what they imagine a world without sexism would look like. Would there not still be sexual desire, and objectification, as there is currently among gay men? Would there not still be dominant and submissive roles that people are naturally inclined to assume? Would there not still be differences in how men and women in general experience and express their sexualities? Would there not still be rape and assault? It seems to me that to understand the effects and extent of sexism in our society, we need to understand that human nature by itself creates imbalances and differences, and desires and fantasies.
This is not to say we should ignore the historical context when discussing the significance of dressing sexy for Halloween. But at least as important as knowing where we've been, is knowing where we hope to be.
p.s. I like funny costumes for Halloween. Sexy for other occasions. That's my bag.
I was asked no less than four times where was my whip: in a floor-length skirt, non-cleavage-revealing bluse and amazing mask, I was preseumed to be a dom. That' just fine with me, because what I saw was that het white males culturally are timid, even on Halloween. Every person who asked me to hurt them (most gleefully) were white males. Some things never change, including an apparent desire to not have to be the initiator.
I'm also a woman raised by a first wave feminist. I'm amazed that here in DFW, straight men are beginning to WANT something different in public M/F power plays. I LOVE IT!
I also have a friend who designs for a major costume company, and she's expressed being a little torn in not having the flexibility to offer 'sexy' in a different light. I sincerely hope she opens her own company soon and we all get to see the awesomeness that is variety in choice.
Just because a paradigm exists doesn't mean subversion's not a good way to challenge it. hang with us Buddhist feminists and look for blaance and equanimity sometime. the mind shift has been amazing, and I don't miss my hardcore feminist days a bit.
Thanks for the support.
Thanks for the support.
As a guy, I'd LOVE it if I could objectify myself more for Halloween without being perceived gay, or being laughed at by women. But it's very difficult to show some flesh as a dude while also being "sexy" to women. (Not impossible, however).
It's not abnormal for women to dress in non-sexy costumes, I see it quite frequently, actually. Ladies have more choices in this matter than men do. It's perfectly acceptable to do either. Is the complaint that you won't get noticed as much as the sexy girls? Well that's obvious... since getting noticed is the point of dressing sexy.
No matter what, there is an undercurrent of biology here. Men are very visual and biologically determined to look for physically healthy women to have sex with. On the other hand, women are typically less motivated by the physical characteristics of a man, and more motivated by the success and alpha factor of a man. It's the same thing, but less obvious.
What does this come down to? We're both most attracted to the alpha of the group. For women it's a hot girl in a hot outfit. For men it's more complicated than that. A guy doesn't have to show a lot of skin to be in the alpha outfit, but he probably DOES have to put a lot more time, money, and energy into that costume than most women have to put into their sexy nurse costume and pushup bra.
The final point: No matter what, for either men or women to have the "hottest" costume, they must first dress to get noticed, and second they must show the world that they're fit and healthy. It's a winning combination, and it just so happens that our male-dominated society basically gives girls a road map for how to achieve those two goals. Just because the path is clearly laid out for women doesn't mean that men aren't under similar pressures to perform in one way or another. The hot girl in the hot outfit IS in a power position. Just ask the shy guy in the corner who you didn't immediately notice and ask him to approach the girl you immediately noticed when you walked in, and then tell me she isn't in a position of power.
Having said that, I DO have a problem with the oversexualization of women, however being sexy on halloween is not a contention. The contention is more along the slutty "bratz" dolls for little girls, the busty and thin Disney princesses, and other things which are putting out messages to the youth, telling them to be sexy. Once your an adult, and you're in an adult environment: Show the world what you got.
In closing:
Sexy nurse in a bar: perfectly fine
Sexy nurse at the children's costume parade: not fine.
as well, i have to say, having friends who have worn both classes of sexy costumes, the ones in the former group have almost universally been women who are strong, empowered females in other aspects of their lives (and who enjoy that type of awesome sex in which both partners are satisfied...whether gay, straight, bi, whatever), whereas the latter have been ones who are lacking self-confidence and direction and tend to base their lives around trying to get and please men on the men's terms only. the costume is thus really only a symptom of a deeper misdirection, and that's what needs to addressed, through sympathy and example and advice and education, not by attacking them for wearing the costume, or lumping all women's expressions of sexuality into one interpretation.
Sure, there can be creative sexy costumes, but I question the sexy motive as well. How much is it about enjoying and using your sexuality, and how much is it about flaunting your body capital in a way that reaffirms your place in the social hierarchy? The vast majority of the "sexy"-costumed people I've seen are pretty close to the cultural body ideal, and people just a few degrees away from the ideal get body-shamed if they try to sexy it up: "She shouldn't be wearing THAT with THOSE legs." Pride parades are a space where body shaming is largely turned off for the duration of the event, at least among participants, right? That doesn't happen on Halloween. I don't see it as liberating, but just another way for those with body capital to put others in their place, reaffirming that your social value is largely about how your body looks.
Ethical qualms aside, it's just lame. Dressing up is supposed to be about creativity. The whole point is to be something you can't or aren't. When some straight ladies dress up as - wait for it - straight ladies, it always seems a lot to me like the guy who shows up with a 'costume' that he obviously cooked up in the five minutes before he left the house. Somewhere between pitiful and plain old boring.
"Sure, there can be creative sexy costumes, but I question the sexy motive as well. How much is it about enjoying and using your sexuality, and how much is it about flaunting your body capital in a way that reaffirms your place in the social hierarchy? "
Seriously.
Am an insta-fan. Keep it up. You speak to us.
*love Kate, trapped in South Carolina,
A straight man could sooo pull off a sexy costume! Put him in a sexy cop costume, like George Michaels in the Outside video... Oh yummy! Or a pair of BDUs, combat boots, belt, and no shirt. I could go on, and on...
It really feels like that's all there is, and for me, a plus-sized girl who doesn't want to show all she's got to complete strangers in public (because my sexy parts are reserved for my significant other, thank you very much), there isn't much out there available that fits what I'd like to wear.
In my area, even online, everything is sexy this, sexy that, with a few small things like bacon strip costumes, chicken suits (in before, haha you're fat so dress up like food, so just don't go there) and long renaissance gowns. And the lack of options outside of being a sexy something is kind of frustrating.
If someone wants to wear that, fine, but at least make a decent number non-sexy options for those of us who don't. Maybe I'd like to dress up as a non-sexy surgeon without paying the high prices on actual scrubs uniforms and real lab coats. Costume versions are cheaper, but only come in male versions.
That's the part of it that frustrates me, not the fact that people are wearing them. But it really just feels like all people want are sexy female characters on Halloween, and that's kind of... wrong.
It's not horrible if you choose it, but when it's the only option? Then that's shoving it down people's throats (no pun intended), and giving people body image issues and, yes, in some ways, demeaning to women.
It has nothing to do with religion or conservatism, because, really, what overly religious conservative person is going to outright celebrate Halloween at all without loads of prayer against the devil and demons that Halloween represents? But it has to do with having options and being able to choose. At least, that's what it is for me.
Give me the ability to choose. Don't try to coerce me to be something I don't want to be by not offering alternative choices. I haven't purchased an actual Halloween costume in quite a long time because I just don't like any of them and they just reveal more of my skin than I'm comfortable revealing (and let's not get into how fat girls are fetishes and how their treated by the body image police).
This has nothing to do with pride or sexuality. I just want to see some decent costumes for once that don't involve thigh high stockings and garter belts with fluffy miniskirts and plunging necklines. Not everyone likes letting it all hang out, and it would be nice if there were options for those people as much as there are for those who don't care as much.
Everyone's all about freedom of choice and expression when they feel their choice and freedom are being curbed. Well, this is my choice and what I want to express. But I can't because the options just aren't there. It's all one-sided. Sure, it used to be one-sided in the conservative direction before, but making it one-sided in the sexy direction isn't right either, and certainly doesn't fix it from being one-sided in the conservative direction.
All it is, is the other side of the same coin. The actual position never changed, it just rolled over in the same spot.