litinemo@94, if you can look at that photo on the FOA site and not see how easy it would be for a six-foot-plus athlete to climb through the window, I really can't help you. Even I could climb in there and I'm 50 years old. The landlord obviously thinks its possible, which is why the window has bars now.

@106 and @107: In Manson's case, more than pot was involved. I don't know much about Ramirez, but he had, let us say, a few more issues. Like, when he was 13 years old, seeing his cousin murder his wife. Also sniffing glue and snorting cocaine.

But since you bring it up, how many Charles Mansons are there? Amanda would have had to, in a matter of weeks in Raffaele's case and after only a brief meeting with Rudy, turned them into murderous psychos. That's a lot less time than it took Manson to get his followers to go on their killing spree. So if she did that, Mignini is right, Amanda IS a witch and should obviously be burned at the stake.

And yet, how many runaway prosecutions have their been since then? Hundreds? Thousands? How many people who were on Illinois' Death Row have been proven innocent by DNA evidence? How many more are probably innocent but don't have that kind of proof?

Oh, and how many runaway Italian prosecutors are already facing criminal charges for another case involving accusations of Satanic rituals? I can think of one. His name begins with M.

@104, on the day that photo was taken (the one at #7 on http://www.friendsofamanda.org/summary.h… ), from what I read, no one was able to climb in the window (though the shutters are closed, which obviously wouldn't help -- why would they have been closed during this test?). If you look at that picture, it is not at all obviously easy "for a six-foot-plus athlete to climb through the window", because it looks as if the climber is about to get stuck right where he is -- not a deep enough handhold or enough foothold to get through the window. Maybe if he has superhuman upper-body strength he could pull himself up, but it doesn't look like the angle is right. How tall is the climber in the pic?

Anyway, it's just a photo, and I am not there to see the actual site, so, like most people following the case I have to judge by the evidence I see, and photos like this can deceive. The fact that apparently the defense was unable to get anyone who could actually climb in -- as opposed to getting partway up -- damages this part of the defense, I think. Why wouldn't the defense get a 6 foot tall athletic guy to climb in? I mean, it's a slam dunk for them if they can do that -- it immediately puts a hole in some of the prosecution claims, and it is not difficult to do it if the climb is as easy as you say. So I have to think that if they couldn't get anyone to demonstrate the climb, that there is some reason for that. Where is the picture showing someone actually going IN the window?

The landlord adding bars is not all that relevant -- if I were that landlord, and there had been a murder in the house under those circumstances, I'd probably put the bars on the window too -- just in case.

"...I really can't help you." Well, all I asked for was a link to a photo showing someone actually climbing in the window. If even the Friends of Amanda don't have one, I guess it doesn't exist.

I'm not saying she's guilty because of this -- what I am saying is that this particular claim on the Amanda supporters' part doesn't hold up to me. Remember, I was replying to this:

"For example, one of his multiple entries on the 'staged break-in' remind us that 'no-one managed to the scale the wall and climb through the window when Sollecito's defence team attempted to show that it was possible.'

"Except that there are photographs of them doing just that."

If there are no photos of someone "climbing through the window" then that last sentence is false. Perhaps the photo they do have demonstrates it is plausible. But WTF didn't they get a pic of someone actually doing it then? Gah.

And, by the way @104, no need to be snarky. I am asking questions and attempting to be objective here. But I am not getting all of my information from Amanda's supporters, who are obviously going to paint her as innocent either way -- I'm trying to look at all sides, and trying to look at actual evidence (as much as I can from here in Seattle, without being able to read Italian).

In a system where you are guilty until proven innocent, the police took away the one way those two could have proven their innocence beyond all doubt: They destroyed the hard drives on all three of their computers.

All three of them.

That's no accident. Not three times. That's a frame-up. Case closed.

@109, you wouldn't need "superhuman upper-body strength," you would just have to be an average male (or a strong female). It would be easier than a chin-up.

UW should cancel all of its study abroad programs in Italy.

It appears that the Italians aren't very sophisticated in their thinking, investigation, understanding of human nature, or what marijuana generally inspires (giggles and munchies - yes, violence -not really).

They did seem a bit backward when I visited Italy and this case highlights it all the more. It's hard to believe they are a civilization as old as history shows they are. They've made remarkably little progress in all of that time.

I hope Ms. Knox gets something closer to justice and soon but I'm not holding my breath.

At least 116 has the guts to say what the rest of y'all are too spineless to say outright.

It's one of the more idiotic statements I've heard in awhile, but still...

As far as anything goes, the only person who knows for sure is dead.

Not true, @118. Rudy Guede knows for sure. And Amanda and Raffaele know for sure whether they were involved in the murder.

I'm thinking about some statements I made regarding "reasonable doubt." I guess cultural relativism has limits for me. I don't believe that "culture" makes things like female circumcision, child labor or torture ok. And I don't think in any culture "guily until proven innocent" is a proper way to carry out justice. Ever.

Many folks are arguing about how such a system (as some are asserting the Italian one to be) could be ok "in another culture than ours." I just don't agree on that. Innocent until proven guilty IS actually better. There are tons of things that may be better than the American way in Italy, but guilty until proven innocent isn't one of them (if that is really what happened...I'm responder to commenters who actually DEFENDED the idea "guilty until proven innocent").

And good job Questor.
Whether you agree with Questor or not, and least he/she did some homework.

And I like the reminder that "DNA" does not = "blood," especially in a house that the suspect LIVED in. Amanda's DNA was going to be all over the place, ESPECIALLY in the bathroom! I'd like to see the solid proof that it was from recently-spilled blood.

I'm trying to find a reference in all of this to the wound that Amanda must have had. If her blood "was all over the place" and "mixed with Meredith's" then she must have had a significant wound herself. Anyone know anything about that?

I still want to know about that busted pipe. This seems significant to me. If Knox said it under duress, that still doesn't make sense. She gave a false alibi under duress? That's the defense of someone making a confession, not a false alibi.

So was the pipe broken? Did she buy the bleach to clean Sollecito's house?

The only piece of evidence..and not character assassination is the knife…WHICH was never proven as the murder weapon..and the DNA of the victim? It was stated in court that it wasn’t BLOOD dna…and there was so little DNA they couldn’t test it twice…its Italian law to test the DNA twice….

You have some valid points Paxton, but your stance is simply not objective enough. Adding things like "a gag gift" when talking about her vibrator really make me and others question your impartiality.

Who gives a shit if her vibrator was a gag gift or not? That's HARDLY incriminating. You're trying so hard to cut out ANY possibility that it makes your article less credible.

I don't think Amanda Knox's or her boyfriend's guilt were proven beyond a reasonable doubt. But their innocence is not so obvious to me either.
While the Italian justice system certainly is not perfect, I really dislike the jingoistic tone of a lot of posts here. It always sucks to be a foreigner when you are accused of a crime, and it sucks especially in the States. To my knowledge, there are lots of foreigners in prison who got unfair jury trials in the States.
Would you get as upset if it was a Mexican student in the States with an American boyfriend who were accused of killing her flat mate? Would you automatically assume she has to be innocent in that case? If you try to picture it that way and say yes, then okay, you are mainly concerned by the problems with procedure and evidence.
But if you'd be more hesitant about declaring her innocence if it happened with other nationalities involved, then you are probably just upset about Knox's treatment because she is a superior American treated badly by inferior Italians.

@ 127 - Numerous media outlets in the US and some in Britain have been more than sympathetic to Knox - and CBS and NY Times have flat out exonerated her.

What bothers me most about the Knox haters is that they refuse to accept that the police and prosecution have done nothing less than a perfect, 100% scientifically indisputable processing of the crime - Indeed, if any one element of their paper thin evidence has a hole in it, then the whole case crumbles. But we have indisputable proof they did not conduct a scientifically infallible processing. For example, there is video proof that Kercher's bra clasp moves location between the 47 days it took to discover it AND it was passed around the room so much between investigators that SOMEONE EVEN DROPPED IT. Upon immediate discovery, the bra clasp should have been photographed, it's location marked and put in a paper envelope (a plastic bag retains moisture and sunlight.)

See Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMaTI0Siu…
And Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLE4s3jXT…

Furthermore, we have indisputable proof that the prosecution didn't follow Italian laws regarding Knox's interrogation: she was interrogated without a lawyer. Even Italy's highest court agreed, ruling Knox's 'confession' inadmissible as evidence.

So, were the police and prosecution as miraculously as infallible, even as brilliant, as some suggest? One might think so, given this:
It was first reported that the police arrived at 1:00 pm, 9 minutes after Sollecito called at 12:51. However, then police later claim they arrived at 12:35, on suspicion of a bomb hoax. What a conscientious policing job....right. We have a recording of sollecito's call to 112 (911) but is there documentation that police actually responded to a bomb hoax, or simply sollecito's call?

And as the article mentioned, how did the police obtain a knife with DNA from a set of kitchen knives polished clean? A miraculously infallible and brilliant investigation, why of course.

PS Harry Rag, you really need to stop using blood in the bathroom as evidence against knox. Quite the contrary. Aside from the fact that it was Knox's BATHROOM WHERE SHE LIVED and therefore a false conclusion, there is DNA of Guede's feces left in the toilet (and he admitted to pooping there), so it was clearly Guede that tracked the blood AND the footprint into the bathroom - any assumption that it was not his is quite an illogical assumption to make.

PUBLIC LYNCHING. most italians want to see her burn and the case details conform like critical mass. thats how it worked with poor non-whites early 20th century. the americans most prone to agreeing w/ italians tend to have a self-loathing reverse OJ complex.

Really, if O.J. could walk because of 'tainted evidence', then how is it that a U.S. citizen can be convicted on a case flimsier than that in a completely different country?

You know what this case is all about? Its about Americans, no matter what they are accused, having grand indignation over any foreign court putting any American on trail for anything. Do you really want me to believe that all this outrage is over inconsistent DNA evidence, an alleged police room beating, and lack of a clear motive? 9 out of 10 of the murder convictions in the U.S. are under similar circumstance but I hear no outrage there. This is pure Anti-Italianism, plain and simple - - Sacco and Vanzetti, this one's for you!

Frankie Sardines @132, just piss off. It's not anti-Italianism. Try, just try, very hard, with your bigoted little brain, to look at the facts:
1) A huge pre-trial PR campaign by the prosecution to prejudice the jury.
2) A prosecutor indicted for misconduct.
3) Hard drives that could have established the defendants' alibis destroyed by the police. Deliberately, no doubt.
4) A court that refused to let the manufacturer attempt data recovery.
5) DNA extracted from a knife by equipment whose controls had been overridden by the prosecution in a lab not even remotely qualified to do LCN DNA testing. No control testing done on any other object the drawer was found in, also in violation of standard test protocols.
6) A bra clasp kicked around for 45 days that has the DNA of five people on it, including one defendant, from a bra that had no trace of the defendant's DNA anywhere else on it.
7) Massive quantities of DNA from Rudy Guede in the room, NONE (except for the bra clasp) from either Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito. Not one hair, not one fiber, not one drop of blood, not one skin cell.
8) Police whose work was so shoddy that they didn't measure the temperature of the body to determine time of death and never canvassed the apartment block across the street.
9) An inflammatory summation by the prosecutor that never would have been permitted in a civilized country.
10) A jury whose members said they believed Knox and Sollecito were guilty even before the trial started.

And that's just for starters. This case is not "about" American indignation. It is a vendetta by a runaway prosecutor. It is an inquisition. A witch hunt. Verdict predetermined in a vision by the chief prosecutor, a vision handed to him by an occultist fanatic. There is NO untainted forensic evidence of either Amanda Knox's or Raffaele Sollecito's involvement at all and mountains of untainted forensic evidence that Rudy Guede brutally murdered Meredith Kercher.

You and your precious defenders of Italian "honor," which exists only in your pompous imagination. Your own words condemn you:

Sacco and Vanzetti, this one's for you!

Yes, destroy the life of an innocent young woman for a crime committed by the U.S. courts a century ago. You are beneath contempt.

Correction, the sentence in 133 should read:

No control testing done on any other object in the drawer the knife was found in, also in violation of standard test protocols.

Dirty @96, everyone I know who knows Mignini said he probably framed her.

Diagoras @ 70: I didn't write that. I was quoting an "unbiased" article that an earlier poster linked me and using that passage as evidence that the article was, in fact, not unbiased. Because you're retarded, though, I have changed my mind about all of it.

This is in response to comment 133
Posted by notfromaroundhere on December 12, 2009 at 4:03 AM · Report

Your little list is no different than the circumstances that apply to most murder cases in the U.S. but since most of those defendants are of color and not Norwegian (or some other Viking-Barbarian, inbred people) you could care less. You are A BIGOT AND A HATE MONGER...this are your words..."You and your precious defenders of Italian "honor," which exists only in your pompous imagination. Your own words condemn you:" Yeah, no wonder the rest of the world looks at this story as nothing more of a case of Americans thinking they are above the law under any circumstance and why here in Seattle it is a case of a poor innocent rail-roaded by a sinister, foreign court. I'm glad Hillary Clinton told Maria Cantwell to shut up. If you don't like Italy, why don't you boycott it? Maybe then there won't be so many Americans coming to Italy and pissing all over as they are now. By the way, I wonder what you think of the VICTIM'S FAMILY in all this? They are suing the Knox family for the lies they have been spreading about the case (which is where I see you are getting most of your information from) and they are also being sued by the Italians for the same thing. Once again, Americans show their arrogance and sense of "above the law" entitlement and incur hatred from the rest of the world (and deservingly so).

It is time to close this comment thread. What little intelligent comment it had several days ago has now dribbled off into a pissing contest.

It is time to close this comment thread. What little intelligent comment it had several days ago has now dribbled off into a pissing contest.

The Princess Amanda campaign is pretty hard to stomach. She was a BIG dope smoker who was on the tear up and out of control in Italy. She had sex with an Italian she met on a train while still on that train. She hooked up with Rafaelle and shagged him on the first night. She is a proper doper who likes a 'smoke up' both in Seattle and in Italy. All these things from her own writing by the way - no-one elses.

She and Rafaelle changed their story multiple times. They can't 'remember' anything about the night despite the next day being the day her flat mate is found dead. Rafaelle and she say they didn't wake up until 10.30 or so the morning after but a media file is played on his computer at 5.30am and their phones are turned on just after 6am. How many students do you know that get up at that time? Well maybe you do if you are in a shop buying bleach (witnesses) and you have a mop out when the police turn up (admitted). How many smash and enter people clean up a murder scene (admitted it had been cleaned by the defence)? None that's how many.

Knox lied and lied and lied throughout the investigation. I wish you people would read the actual court transcripts not just believe this PR campaign. All you people that think Rudy killed on his own - it just DOES NOT WORK because Meredith despite being a karate expert did not have a single piece of skin or hair under her nails. Both her arms were HELD. Something terrible happened that night for reasons we will never know and Amanda Knox was right in the middle of it - wake up.

Well, I'm protesting the Stranger for encouraging this BIGOTED DRIVEL...

I love how people say this is not about Anti-Italianism or any other kind of bigotry towards Italians, but in the same sentence you get:

Posted by Hoser on December 12, 2009 at 11:09 AM · Report
Correction: Frankie Sardines - you are the dumbest person on the internet. There is a reason the world doesn't like Italians. They are as weak as little girls. Why do you think they folded faster than Superman on laundry day in WWII? Christ, the Canadians nearly single handedly defeated them. Peace loving Canadians!

I'm American (I used to live in Seattle). I now live in Italy very near Perugia. I don't give a shit what anybody says. If they were too high to remember anything, then they are guilty. It's been obvious since day one that they were both there, and all this confusion just seems like drama to me. I personally think that Amanda is the type to premeditate something wicked and then revel in the media frenzy and maybe even convince herself that it was all just a dream. Looks like a kook to me.

All you Amanda lynchers are going on false reports leaked to the press as part of the enormous pre-trial PR campaign orchestrated by Mignini, "The Monster of Florence." That goes for you, italychic, and you Frankie Sardines, and you NoAlibi.

NONE of you are looking at the fact that there is NO reliable forensic evidence, despite prosecution claims. THREE computer hard drives, which could have established alibis, destroyed by police. THAT is why they have no alibi. The POLICE destroyed the only way they had to establish their alibis. Do you know how many hard drive crashes I've had in 20 years of using computers daily? Two. But even that wasn't enough. Just to make sure, the court refused to even allow the manufacturer to try to recover the data.

And if were obvious that they were there, why did Guede keep saying that they were not? Does ANYTHING about Guede's story even make sense? Why is there not a shred of hair, fiber, blood, skin or DNA evidence in the room where Meredith was murdered? But oceans of Rudy's?!!!

Talk about gullible. You got pwned by a runaway prosecutor. The exact same thing happens in the U.S. all the time.

PS: italychic, on the Internet, no one knows you are a dog. American from Seattle living near Perugia? I highly doubt that. But if you are, all that proves is that you are as brainwashed by Mignini's PR campaign as everyone else around there.

A pity Ms. Knox wasn't tried in Scotland.

If ever there was a case that called for the Scottish Law "Not Proven" verdict, it is this one.

@145, no I didn't get pwned by anything of the sort. There is DNA evidence of Knox mixed in with that of the victim as is listed above. You can keep on insisting there isn't but that isn't what 19 judges who reviewed the evidence and the judges and jury thought. And Guede didn't say they were there precisely because they were there committing the crime with him. DUH!

Yes, @147, you were. Either that or you don't seem to realize than Amanda actually lived in the same apartment as Meredith, meaning that her DNA would be all over the place, especially in the bathroom. So the fact that Amanda's DNA is mixed with Meredith's blood means absolutely nothing.

Jeeze. Do you even know what DNA is?

As for Rudy, his Skype call discussing the crime before he was arrested was tapped. That is one of the times he said Amanda wasn't there. Even after he had come up with his ridiculous story, he still didn't claim Raffaele and Amanda were there until much later on.

@147: Do you realize that your DNA is all over the place where YOU live? If someone gets slaughtered in your house or apartment, their blood is therefore going to be mixed with your DNA. Does that mean you committed the murder?

Can I make this any clearer for you?

"DUH," yourself.

Madison Paxton's article on the murder conviction of Amanda Knox cannot be helpful to her cause. The continued passionate vilification of the Italian Justice System and the incompetent Italian Police in American media only serves to make Amanda's success on appeal more remote. Local Italians celebrated the conviction which includes even one of their own.



Paxton asks why Amanda Knox falsely accused Patrick Lumumba of the murder. A plausible explanation is that if she accused Rudy Guede, then he could implicate her. Amanda had to implicate someone not connected to the murder; which in turn incriminated herself following Lumumba's airtight alibi. This is what Amanda lacks profusely: an alibi. After changing her story she said that she was with Raffaele all evening the night of the murder. But Raffaele said he was alone at home on his computer all night. Oops. Oh, and Raffaele's computer indicated is was not turned on and connected to the internet during the time in question like he claimed (damn you, Microsoft!).



Amanda's behavior following the murder made her suspicious: 1) doing cartwheels in the police waiting room, 2) changing her story, 3) buying two bottles of bleach with Raffaele. This does not of course imply guilt, only suspicion. Again, Amanda never came clean on her alibi with Raffaele.



Hillary Clinton has stated that anyone can approach her to discuss Amanda's conviction. Translation: "If you can convince me that Amanda is innocent, then I'll take up her cause with the Italian Prime Minister." So far no takers on that score. In the end we may find that none of our esteemed officials wants to risk their reputation, let alone valuable time, to help poor Amanda. Asking Hillary Clinton to help her might be like asking her to fart in church.

I'm boycotting all things Seattle. Seattle is what the world would look like if the Nazis won the war. No wonder Nazi war criminals are being found living in Bellevue. Welcome to the Fourth Reich!

@150, you're right, the entire Italian judicial system should not be vilified and it's counterproductive to do so. After all, the same judicial system that Mignini is a part of is investigating his conduct in The Monster of Florence case, another case in which he posited three defendants and a Satanic conspiracy (think the guy has issues?). And, after all, the same system eventually freed the three defendants Mignini had convicted using faked evidence of their involvement in a Satanic cult.

Interesting interview a while back with Doug Preston, the author of a book on the case:

Giuliano Mignini is a prosecutor who just falls in love with conspiracy theories. Nothing is simple. Nothing is what it seems.

Let me give you an example of this. My co-writer Spezi and I believe the Monster of span Florence is a lone psychopath. He killed seven couples, fourteen people. He mutilated the women and cut off their sex organs. Really horrifying.

A psychological profile prepared by the American FBI of the Monster stated that he is a lone killer. All the Italian forensic psychologists stated he was a lone killer. And all the evidence gathered at the crime scenes pointed to a single perpetrator.

But this is too simple for Mignini. He believes the Monster killings were the work not of a lone killer but a satanic sect dating back to the Middle Ages. His theory, based on nonexistent evidence, supposition and conspiracy logic, was that this sect was operating in high places in government and they needed female body parts to perform Black Masses.

All these conspiracy theories, they almost never happen in real life. And they do not happen to a girl like Amanda who has never been in trouble and had a normal life back in Seattle.

In the end, three people were convicted in that case, which involved an alleged Satanic conspiracy, just like Mignini started out with in this one, and all three were freed by the Italian Supreme Court.

Whatever else the case against Knox and Sollecito is, it is an obvious case of police/prosecutorial misconduct. The interview with Preston can be found here: http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/archiv…

As for the alibi, Knox and Sollecito say they were at his place that night. Anything you have read to the contrary is false, with the exception of the "if I did it" "confession" that interrogators browbeat out of Amanda. Did you know that 25% of people proven innocent through DNA testing by the Innocence Project confessed to the crimes they were accused of? Look it up.

Preston again:

You have no idea what it is like to be interrogated. It is a frightening experience. It is easy to break you down.

Mignini interrogated me for two hours, demanding I confess to a crime I did not commit, and it was terrifying. He is a powerful interrogator.

Also, the police destroyed all three hard drives, which could have proven Amanda and Raffaele were telling the truth. I wonder why the police did that. And then the court wouldn't let the manufacturer try to recover the data. I wonder why the court did that.

Cartwheels and yoga/stretching exercise are unusual but hardly strange ways for an athlete/gymnast to relieve tension. In the sense that a cartwheel can be interpreted as a celebration, sure, it's inappropriate under the circumstances, but if Amanda were guilty, you'd think she'd want to appear bereaved, not joyful, wouldn't you? If anything, the cartwheels are evidence of a consciousness of innocence, not a consciousness of guilt.

Buying bottles of bleach? Are you referring to a story about a non-existent receipt for bleach? Or the testimony of a shopkeeper months after the crime, testimony that was contradicted by his original statement to the police and by his own employee who was in the shop at the time Amanda was supposed to have bought the bleach?

No country has a monopoly on travesties of justice. The Italian system will probably work, eventually, just like the U.S. system eventually did in the McMartin preschool case, a notorious case in the U.S. that involved charges of Satanic ritual abuse. The question is how many lives will be ruined first.

I'm boycotting all things Seattle. Seattle is what the world would look like if the Nazis won the war. No wonder Nazi war criminals are being found living in Bellevue. Welcome to the Fourth Reich!

So glad to hear you will be boycotting all things Seattle. I trust that means you will be boycotting this comments section! Buh-bye!

Seattle is what the world would look like if the Nazis won the war.

You mean rainy with great coffee, outstanding hiking, fresh air, beautiful scenery and lots of hot, hot sex that you'll never even get a whiff of? Who knew!

Everyone should know, if they don't already, that the police in America are trained liars and they lie a lot. That is why we have at least 100,000 innocent people incarcerated here at any given time. The criminal justice system in America is fucked and in italy it is obviously a pathetic joke. I have no doubt that the police in Italy are much worse than they are here. If you believe anything they or the prosecutors said in courtroom,you're a fucking idiot.If they wanted a guilty verdict, they would not be above planting DNA evidence or whatever else they needed.
I loved Madison Paxton's article and I am amazed that so many dumb assholes read the Stranger. What the fuck?

@151

Frankie, oh Frankie,
One thing about Seattle: I come from a smalltown near Nuremberg, Germany and I live in Nuremberg for 6 years now, I can tell you that nothing here looks like Seattle :-)
You seem to be a very young person, so my advise for you would be: Please use most of your time to enjoy all things that have given Italy a reputation of a culture nation in former times: go to the museum, see a lot of da Vinci paintings, watch some Fellini movies, drink a good bottle of Chianti, do cook some delicious Lasagne and enjoy to eat it, or read very carefully "Il nome della rosa" by Umberto Eco.
Put some Italian culture in your life. Please do that and give yourself the chance to make your mind and your brain just a little bigger.
Please do that, and please, take your time with that!
When you use your time and your efforts and your energy for this, you will do yourself and many other people a great favor.

@8:
Yes, you can (and will) leave DNA evidence on something just by touching it. It's called endothelial (skin) cell DNA and we are constantly shedding it everywhere we go. But you don't even have to touch an item to leave your DNA on the item. Humans shed thousands and thousands of skin cells every day, and these tiny particles can be tracked all over the place just by walking over them. The fact that Sollecito's DNA only appeared on two different items clearly indicates that he spent very little time in the cottage otherwise his DNA would have been all over the place just like Amanda's. After bopping around the crime scene for 47 days, it's no wonder that the bra clasp had at least 10 different peoples' DNA on it, I wonder how many of the ten samples belonged to the cops? BTW, it would have been humanely impossible to be involved in this crime WITHOUT leaving DNA all over the crime scene unless you were wearing a full biological isolation suit - not exactly appropriate attire for an orgy.

@151:
So, Frankie the asshole; if the Nazis had won the war, the world would have become a bastion of liberal culture and homosexuality crawling with hippies, bleeding heart liberals, and other highly educated and open-minded people? I'm so glad to hear you'll be boycotting our fair city, you really belong somewhere in Texas or Alaska. Crawford or Wasilla maybe?

Despite being the "stupidest person on the internet," I have come to the conclusion that the evidence is either too scant or too adulterated to convict Knox or Sollecito. While I initially believed in their guilt because of news reports and certain websites, further "research" (Google) has convinced me otherwise.

The difficulty with coming to this conclusion was that the Friends of Amanda came across as angry zealots. They refute "evidence" as inadmissible (which it often is) without offering the only source available to us at distance: websites, news articles, etc. The only thing that can prove or disprove her guilt or innocence for the commentators here is precisely that. (Rants and snark don't help.)

I encourage a sincere examination of all relevant websites before a decision is made. That means that commentators should offer full web addresses to the websites that offer good, well-reasoned information. (That means you need to sign in to post them.)

Though these sites are opposed in their conclusions, they were the most helpful and reliably researched:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php
http://www.sciencespheres.com/2009/12/an…
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/
(please add more)

These sites only poisoned the conversation (I don't watch tv and CBS reminded me why):

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5…
http://www.amandadefensefund.org/
(Please add more. These are harder to find again because they were so obviously biased)

Because the conversation here is either bigoted or juvenile, perhaps we should focus on collecting relevant websites, offering addresses, and designating which sites are worthwhile and which sites muddy the waters?

This would be a meta-historical investigation: weighing not the evidence itself, but the discursive and narrative validity of the separate arguments.

Too much of the evidence was tainted in a way to incriminate Knox and Sollecito, but this is not apparent unless websites are compared. Does that sound reasonable to anybody?

To Golem, Harry the Raghead and all the rest of you ignorant 'guilty until proven innocent' fucks out there, go to italy and let Mignini and the rest of his guinea thugs lock you up for something you clearly could not have done.

Fuck off, pigs

El Oso Ronoso @ 158, I'm glad to see you did that.

I followed much the same path, starting with a feeling that Amanda and Rafaele were guilty. Then gradually, as I looked at the same websites you did, I came to the conclusion that there's just no real evidence that they are and so it's probably the commonsense explanation rather than Mignini's outlandish one.

During the course of looking into this, I also went back and forth a couple of times, by the way.

Because the conversation here is either bigoted or juvenile, perhaps we should focus on collecting relevant websites, offering addresses, and designating which sites are worthwhile and which sites muddy the waters?

Good idea.

"I'm just proud she lasted 14 hours."

She voluntarily walked into the police station specifically to accuse an innocent man of rape and murder. That innocent man spent two weeks in prison because of Amanda's lies.

That's nothing to be proud of.

She did nothing of the kind, you damn fool.

Curiouso - #33's comments are entirely irrelevant to any fact regarding the murder - it's simply perpetuating a the myth that "you can tell" she's guilty because she "seems" like a bad person. Fact: Knox also wrote a fictionalized story about a raped girl. If writing about violence means you're a sadomasochistic murderer, then Stephen King must be the most wanted man in America. In short, Paxton's editors undoubtedly proposed space limitations, so she had to write about what is relevant to the case. Ergo, being at a drunken college party (as Knox was) and making tasteless jokes (as Knox did) doesn't add to any evidence she was a psychopathic murderer who gave "the final blow" to Kercher by slashing her throat.

I don't think the prosecutor had enough evidence to convict Amanda, but she wasn't doing herself any favors by being so deadpan, unemotional, and detached during the proceedings. The statement she read to the jury was cryptic, and impersonal, like she was reading from a book. She never once (that I heard) said to the media or the jury a simple "I did not do it". When interviewed by a news mag show I watch, she danced all around the question, she didn't give a straight answer. It was strange. He ex-boyfriend's statement was exactly what she should have said. I know people react to shock different ways, and that this does not mean she is guilty, but it looked bad. It made her seem cold and indifferent. If she had shown a more normal reaction and been more human to the jury they might have been dissuaded from their pre-conceived ideas.

Posted: "In any case, for me it all boils down to two inexplicable oddnesses. Why were Amanda's and Raffaele's cell phones turned off for those particular times? And Who buys bleach twice on a holiday morning (Nov. 2 was a holiday) unless there is something *really* urgent to use it on?"

---------

They turned their cell phones off so as not to be disturbed--sort of like putting the 'do not disturb' sign out. This couple had only known each other for 6 days; the night of Nov. 1 was the first night of a long weekend; both Amanda and Raffaele had been unencumbered of commitments; Amanda didn't want to chance her boss calling her in later. All of the above makes good sense to me!

Who said they bought bleach the morning of Nov. 2? A store owner who decided to tell his story close to a year after the fact. However, an employee in the store said in court that Amanda Knox was not in the store that morning. One more time, AN EMPLOYEE IN THE STORE SAID IN COURT THAT AMANDA KNOX WAS NOT IN THE STORE THAT MORNING!

Madison, How much KNOX/MELLAS PR team piad you for writing this crap ?

@152, this is only my opinion, but doing cartwheels in a police waiting room while waiting to be interrogated for a murder investigation appears as suspicion of guilt. An innocent person would be bored, looking at their watch, and saying "When the hell can I go home?" Doing cartwheels appears that someone is extremely nervous about the forthcoming interview and is doing cartwheels to alleviate stress. Amanda brought suspicion upon herself. If she is innocent, can she explain her unusual behavior? "Oh, I'm just goofy, happy go lucky...and extremely stupid." Poor Amanda.

The comment regarding the purchase of the bleach was made from testimony from Raffaele's cleaning lady who said Raffaele never purchased bleach, yet he and Amanda purchased TWO bottles of bleach the day after the murder. One bottle was used completely the same day of the purchase. Again, this raises suspicion. Oh yeah, but I keep forgetting that Amanda's innocent.

And why were Meredith's clothes in the washing machine with it running when the police arrived? Oh, that's right, the killer wanted to do Meredith's laundry after he killed her.

Why was the blood on the bathroom floor partially cleaned with bleach, but a huge dump was left in the toilet? Oh yeah, Rudy wanted to clean up after the murder and he has habit of not flushing.

Raffaele called the police only after he saw them at the house, after Amanda had already showered that morning with blood all over the bathroom. She left the dump in the toilet because she knew it was Rudy's and left it there out of respect.

I'll leave judgement to Senator Cantwell and Sec of State Hillary Rodram Clinton. Their action is the put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is thing that counts.

its always interesting to see these hate obsessed lynch mob peasents, drueling for some hate-theory public negatvity.

most the time I think its the same Rags recommending the same sites they live at, these sites are 100% pro-prosecution sites under a false victim sincerity.

similar to some compulsive obsessive disorder, as they flock to every article, every forum, the same Rags recommending the 2qty pro-Hate theory.

these same 10 people, or so, go to every site and scream the Hate-Theory... or whatever theory the prosecution has dreamt up that day.

There was no logic to the motive, there was no logic to this case, the prosecutor needs some serious retirement time.

Innocent people sent to prison on speculation.

No one was there that night except Rudy, only Rudy knows what happened....everyone else is just guessing.

Curiouso - #33's comments are totally relevant.And if you want to know about what happened from the sources that are actually concerned with uncovering the truth rather than manipulating it ( media run by KNOX/MELLAS PR team) why don't you check these:

TRUE JUSTICE FOR MEREDITH KERCHER
PERUGIA MURDER FILE
MISS REPRESENTED blog

It is very telling how many posters here COMPLETELY ignore Meredith Kercher - the only victim in this brutal horrendous crime.

FOA and KNOX/MELLAS PR team lost already - they will lose again, and again, and again...

#170 JSDZ
It almost sounds like the murder of Meredith Kercher had never happened...
Speaking about denial...

Yet, if the evidence used to convict Rudy is so SOLID yet the same evidence is so flimsy regarding Knox and Sollecito do you think you might a huge issue with logic?

#158

FOA is not a place where anything discussed. It is a PR machine, thus totally unreliable. The goal of that site is not the truth but to serve their clients - Knox/Mellas family - to achieve their purpose (getting the convicted murderer out of jail). It is a business, not a pro bono, non for profit, genuine campaign.

I am surprised (maybe not so surprised) you have not acknowledge 2 other sites concerned with uncovering the truth. How on earth did you miss that?

MISS REPRESENETD blog:
http://missrepresented.net

PERUGIA MURDER FILE:
http://perugiamurderfile.org/index.php

I don't know anyone involved, but there are some nagging simple logic problems I have with the prosecution's case:

Logic problem 1: They had the temerity to properly dispose of their bloody clothes and shoes, but then took the murder weapon home, cleaned it thoroughly, and put it back in the drawer?

Logic Problem 2: They cleaned the knife so well that luminal had no reaction, no blood was found on the knife, but the low copy skin DNA of the victim somehow remained on the blade???

Logic Problem 3: With a mop and bucket they somehow managed to selectively clean the murder scene clean of their DNA, hair, fibers and fingerprints but leave behind Rudy Guede's??

Logic Problem 4: The bra clasp collected 47 days after the murder had Sollecito's DNA on it, but the bra itself did not???

Logic Problem 5: Meredith Kercher's bedroom door was locked from the inside and had to be broken down to gain entry. How did Knox get in there and remove all of her and Sollecito's fingerprints and DNA and leave behind Rudy Guede's?

DNA can tell you many things. It can't tell you HOW it got where it is, or even WHEN. Finding DNA of people who live or frequent a residence is not earth shattering evidence, even if it's mixed with the victim's blood.

What is earth shattering is the shocking LACK of DNA, fingerprints, fibers, hair of two out of the three people who supposedly participated in a violent, unplanned, bloody struggle with the victim.

Anyone, with even a nominal understanding of forensic transfer knows that's impossible. Unless they simply weren't there.

#173 ric342
The "depth and clarity" of your "legal" analysis is stunning. I assume you got your answers from FOA - the most "reliable, unbiased" source there is...

#175 captcorajus

You DO have a problem with logic. BIG TIME.

Guilty. Too bad they can't fry her in Italy.

Amen!

#44 ONION said:
"Don't you all get it? This isn't a "story." This isn't an "article." This isn't "reporting" that is guilty of "bias." This is a character witness. It was posted exactly BECAUSE she knows Amanda. Sometimes this kind of testimony is even sought out during trials, as evidence.
Stop bitching about her being a friend."

IS IT? Really?
Why then is she crticising from the beginning to the end the unjust Italian system, refutes the evidence, accuses Italian police, etc. etc.
Gimme a break... This article is a piece of crap paid for by Knox/Mellas PR team. I hope Madison earned enough to pay her rent.

#66 said:
" Thank you for your clear and concise words on behalf of Amanda. Please tell your friends and family that there is a very easy way to raise money for Amanda's Defense Trust. Send $5 and a SASE (checks payable to Free Amanda Knox) to me and I will send you a bumper sticker that says
in bold letters "Free Amanda Knox".

Send to
Corlis F. Carroll
1855 Western Avenue
Albany, NY 12203

All proceeds go toward family and legal expenses."

DO YOU HAVE A FUND WITH PROCEEDS GOING TO MEREDITH KERCHER FAMILY?

Craig, this is how I know you are a fucking idiot:

Yet, if the evidence used to convict Rudy is so SOLID yet the same evidence is so flimsy regarding Knox and Sollecito do you think you might a huge issue with logic?

The evidence used to convict Rudy is not the same. The evidence used to convict Rudy is his hair, his DNA, his fingerprints, his shoe prints and his blood in the room where Meredith was murdered. There was no hair, DNA, fingerprints, shoe prints or blood of either Amanda or Raffaele in the room where Meredith was murdered, either because they weren't there or because they are witches.

You, Mignini and various other idiots are obviously going with the witches theory. I'm going with the theory that they weren't there.

@182,
DO YOU HAVE A FUND WITH PROCEEDS GOING TO MEREDITH KERCHER FAMILY?

Meredith Kercher is dead. Giving her family money won't bring her back.

Craig, if I have a problem with logic BIG TIME, please expand on such problem with your obviously superior intellect. So superior you feel no reason to back up your assertion.

I have visited the FOA site only once, and long after I'd consulted other sources over the last TWO YEARS. I didn't just jump into this story December 5th.

I've been to the "Perugia murder file" many times and as yet found anything of relevance there, other than a what is essentially one big hit piece on Amanda Knox. How a "renowned psychiatrist who interviewed serial killers" says that her emails show a shocking self involvement and disinterest in Meredith Kercher. Blah, blah, blah, blah.

The site alleges that Amanda Knox displays the characteristics of a psychopath, and a variety of outrageous statements bordering on slanderous. Based on their evaluation of Knox, it would appear that most 18 - 25 year olds in America are psychopaths, because they are by and large very self involved. The writings and words that are attributed to her as "evidence" I hear coming out of the mouths of kids all the time (I'm a club DJ). I've been privy to stabbings, shootings, and other things and the reactions of the kids I find sometimes staggering. Knox's words don't shock me, nor do they strike me as anything other than the ignorance of youth.

Bottom line, no one has ever been able to explain to me how not one bit of hair, fingerprints, DNA, of Knox or Sollecito is in the room where Kercher was murdered, and Guede was all over the place.

As was previously commented... they must be witches.

Rudy Guede, the vampire:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JJahPK3P…

Yeah, I completely believe Knox and Sollecito wanted to hang out with this moron and play sex games.

Gimme a break.

For Knox friends:
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtop…

#184 notfromaroundhere said:

"Meredith Kercher is dead. Giving her family money won't bring her back."

This is not the point and your callous referral at the expense of the brutally murdered by Knox victim is horrifying.

189 & 190 captcorajus

You are illogical.

@captcorajus

YOU ARE WASTING MY PRECIOUS TIME.

This forum is perfect example of callous and shallow some Americans can be. Screaming bloody murder when the convicted killer = Knox - lands behind the bars for her brutal crime and at the same time TOTALLY IGNORING the victim - MEREDITH KERCHER.

RIP MEREDITH KERCHER

Justice has been served. Your killers are in jail.

@ric342 said:
"Rudy, in some articles, says, while he was in the bathroom, he saw Amanda, and another figure, in the room with Meredith. Rudy has also be described in some articles as a manipulative liar. There is no hard evidence of Amanda and her boyfriend in the room at the time of Meredith's murder, or afterwards. Rudy, IMO, made up this story in an effort to try to clear himself, and place blame on Amanda, and boyfriend. I think Amanda made some foolish, and naive mistakes in talking to the investigators, and possibly giving them incorrect answers, possibly from undue pressure, and possibly lack of sleep. But I'm still convinced the prosecutor got it wrong, and hopefully they will be cleared in the appeal."

But there is a mountain of hard evidence that Knox and Raffaele are LIARS. Especially Knox. I suppose you disagree based on your studies of FOA and KNOX/MELLAS PR spin.

I prefer not to comment on the case because it blows my mind that anyone could think this girl is guilty.... but I wanted to address a comment a reader just wrote. That Amanda Knox was seen buying bleach at 7AM in the morning is so far unsubstantiated. My guess is this assumption is held from an erroneous report dating all the way back to 2007 where it was stated that till receipts showed that Rafaelle bought bleach the morning after the murder. This is now known to be false. Moreover, the witness who claims he saw Amanda Knox in the store that morning testified that he was not sure whether Knox had bought anything.

Explain how a 3rd party is already in prison for the murder and his DNA is all over the crime scene..his semen was inside of the victim and his story is outrageously fantasy. He was “on the toilet listening to his ipod when the victim was murdered and didn’t hear her scream”….get real. I think its crystal clear who killed her.

No amount of interrogation would make me confess to being at the SCENE OF A MURDER, or make me point the finger at an innocent man. Also, she does not "suggest" he is guilty, she told the Italian police that she could hear him murdering her. This is the first article I have seen that states she was interrogated for 54 hours. I don't think it was for that long

To be honest, I too find it very, very hard to believe this young woman brutally murdered poor Meredith Kercher. But she has lied, several times, and there is evidence that she was at the scene of the crime. She is hiding something.

To the author of this article: people fool others all the time, and Amanda Knox may have fooled you. My god, people get married to people who end up being violent. What makes you so sure that someone you've known someone in college for a year or two doesn't have a sadistic, violent side?

I am not American, or British, or Italian. But is it just me - or did everyone else find the way she addressed the court very rude and inappropriate? Is she just 'that way', and thats why her behavior immediately after the murder was so bizarre?

The last ones to wake up to Knox lies will be her supporters. It will be a bitter surprise or a rude awakening...

@210 peppermichael

Your faith in a way is irrelevant regarding the irrefutable evidence against Knox, though I respect it - it is your personal view.
If you do care to read actual transcripts (in English) from the trial you would perhaps gain deeper insight into this and what is unbelievable to you might be a reality.

I recommend the court transcripts available at PERUGIA MURDER FILE - there are no articles and opinions spun by war waging parties but facts - no media coverage, just the sources.

This one in particular is the transcript of Knox being examined:
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtop…

Craig - what are you talking about? If you read my comment, you will see that I think Amanda Knox is GUILTY. I think she is HIDING SOMETHING.

Faith? Huh? All I said was I find it hard to believe a young woman could commit such a disgusting, vile act. I think that's valid