Features Aug 5, 2010 at 4:00 am

Polycamp—the Summer Camp for Kids Growing Up in Poly Families—Is All Grown-Up Now

Thomas Pitilli

Comments

1
I've been poly since 1980 - before we had a catchy word for it. By early 90's there began to be a self-identified community in Seattle, and I know many of the people involved in Polycamp. Unfortunately, Dan's article highlights some of the arrogant cluelessness that sometimes passes for "open and honest". This has nothing to do with Polyamory, and is simply a matter of everyday American self-centeredness.

If a school-aged child is bringing a friend over to visit, open nudity is not merely stupid, but shows an insulting lack of common human decency. Those who refuse to adjust for outsiders, especially children, may not be criminals, but I can't understand why they would expect anyone's respect.
2
Really sweet article. Didn't know about poly camps. Thanks, Dan.

@1: I might agree with you more if the nudity seemed like it might have been the dad going around without pants. But a topless mom? Sounds like France.
3
I have never in my life seen anything good come of 'poly.' It ALWAYS ends with someone being hurt, broken, or betrayed.
4
Quintus here: Dan, ya did a great job with the article, but you missed the point of Polycamp's mission- to be of service to the community as a whole. We still find it important to have a safe place for families with children to come, but didn't want to just focus on that. As it says on the home page of our website:

"Polycamp is an event designed to build and enrich our community. We gather yearly for activities, camaraderie and companionship. We have activities and workshops that are for every member of our community. If you are new to poly, a veteran, single, in a poly family, monogamous but in a poly relationship, with kids or without, young or old, any sexual orientation, or even not poly but friendly- YOU ARE A PART OF OUR COMMUNITY and we want you to join us.

Our activities cover a broad range of interests. We have something for everyone. Classes for people new to poly and discussion groups and classes for those of us who have been around awhile, artistic workshops/classes, spiritual workshops, Tribal interests (drumming and belly dancing), music and dancing, nature, and so on…"
5
Quintus here: Dan, ya did a great job with the article, but you missed the point of Polycamp's mission- to be of service to the community as a whole. We still find it important to have a safe place for families with children to come, but didn't want to just focus on that. As it says on the home page of our website:

"Polycamp is an event designed to build and enrich our community. We gather yearly for activities, camaraderie and companionship. We have activities and workshops that are for every member of our community. If you are new to poly, a veteran, single, in a poly family, monogamous but in a poly relationship, with kids or without, young or old, any sexual orientation, or even not poly but friendly- YOU ARE A PART OF OUR COMMUNITY and we want you to join us.

Our activities cover a broad range of interests. We have something for everyone. Classes for people new to poly and discussion groups and classes for those of us who have been around awhile, artistic workshops/classes, spiritual workshops, Tribal interests (drumming and belly dancing), music and dancing, nature, and so on…"
6
Quintus here: Dan, ya did a great job with the article, but you missed the point of Polycamp's mission- to be of service to the community as a whole. We still find it important to have a safe place for families with children to come, but didn't want to just focus on that. As it says on the home page of our website:

"Polycamp is an event designed to build and enrich our community. We gather yearly for activities, camaraderie and companionship. We have activities and workshops that are for every member of our community. If you are new to poly, a veteran, single, in a poly family, monogamous but in a poly relationship, with kids or without, young or old, any sexual orientation, or even not poly but friendly- YOU ARE A PART OF OUR COMMUNITY and we want you to join us.

Our activities cover a broad range of interests. We have something for everyone. Classes for people new to poly and discussion groups and classes for those of us who have been around awhile, artistic workshops/classes, spiritual workshops, Tribal interests (drumming and belly dancing), music and dancing, nature, and so on…"
7
@2 no, it does not sound like france. it sounds like those parents are clueless. i personally don't care one way or the other about nudity but to assume that others feel the same, particularly in regards to their children, is willfull ignorance. i wouldn't want my children there either. not because the dad had a date or the mom is topless-but because the parents are so fucking stupid and out of touch with reality and the world around them, and are apparently lacking any sense of common decency. (and by decency i mean not disclosing that their house is "nudity-positive" and that their daughter's friend might walk in on dad fucking someone if she takes a wrong turn to the bathroom.) people have a right to know what is going on where there children are staying and no sane person would assume that this behavior was included in the sleepover without a heads up.
8
@sounder, all mono relationships end in someone being hurt, broken, or betrayed. All relationships end(sometimes with the passing of one) if you were committed it is painful.
9
@1 I think the anecdote may have been lost in translation. i assumed that koe, being a kid, told her friend it MIGHT happen because it was something she was used to, not that her parents ACTUALLY did that when her friends were over. either way, that was not the point of the article.
as for dan's concern about mixing the adult only and the kid friendly, the classes are really just an extension of the adult only discussions that take place. i went last year, and the atmosphere was very low key and family-friendly. I know Quintus quite well and have been to his family friendly events- the environment will be just as appropriate for children this year as it has always been. He has merely expanded the draw to encompass the entire community.
10
Also- I'm really unsure how I feel about this article. It irks me when those in the media are trying to skew things.... For example the highlight on the nudity portion of Koe's interview. She said it "might" happen (as a result of the house being nudity positive), not that it "DID" happen- which says to me the parents did have that common sense to not necessarily share that openness of their home with those that are not accustomed to such practices. Couple that with what he highlighted about the "adult only" activities at Polycamp and it presents a very negative picture in my mind and probably most others (therefore the practices we have put in place to isolate these activities becomes overshadowed by the writer's emphasis). I mean seriously Dan?

Thoughts anyone?

Much love,
Quintus
11
@3 Like yours, my sample is also biased/anecdotal, but the majority of the relationships I've seen that were poly (not cheating/hiding anything from any partners), have lasted years and most breakups were amicable.
12
#3: I was intrigued by your comment "It ALWAYS ends with someone being hurt, broken, or betrayed." Unfortunately, this is equally true in our modern era of monogamous relationships.

Despite what the Christian Right may say about it, monogamy is NOT the foundation of civilization. We live in an age that was perverted by the dream of Romantic Love -- the idea that "there is one perfect person in the world for me." This is known among poly folks as New Relationship Energy, a temporary mental disturbance that unfortunately evolved in the Western world into the foundation for long-term domestic contracts.

Last night I saw "Tristan und Isolde" by Wagner, at the Seattle Opera. Check it out. This is a convincing argument for the understanding that romantic love is a kind of blind insanity, destructive of everything in its path, and often fatal.
13
oh and Dan, i hope you will follow up this article by attending polycamp this year- i think you may come away with a more nuanced view of the community as a whole.
@ 3 sonder: people often see what they expect to find. people who have known many devorcees have a similar view of relationships overall. nevertheless, one's few personal anecdotes usually do not provide a very balanced view of something overall. most people i know have very successful poly relationships. that we know different people says little one way or the other however. (though im willing to bet my sample size is bigger than yours).
14
#12 Was at "Tristan und Isolde" last night, too, thinking how NRE (new relationship energy) can be just as destructive as a magic love potion! Without love triangles and unrequited love, we wouldn't have half the films, operas, and stories we do.
15
@10: "Adult only" activities present a very negative picture in your mind? Part of being poly is being sex-positive; to anyone who's generally sex-negative, poly lifestyles are going to cause them alarm regardless of where the focus of the story is. I don't think noting the adult only activities or making mention that a family is nudity positive is a bad thing at all.
16
#9: I stand corrected. Of course there's a difference between what a kid thinks might happen and what the parents would actually do. My apology to Koe's family.

Unfortunately, I've seen too much of that sort of thing over the years. My greatest dismay has been the common tendency to confuse Polyamory (or, as I prefer, Polyfidelity) with "Obsessed With Sex". Never begrudge the newly liberated person their enjoyment of a "kid in a candy store" phase, but for those who seek fulfilling committed relationships it's simply sad to see the sexual element put forth as the first, and ultimate, definition of a Poly life. Sex Positive Culture is a small sub-set of Poly lifestyle, but that's what people tend to think it's all about.
17
The point that polys are trying to build a community that is as inclusive as possible (polys with families, single polys, polys without kids, etc) feels like it's lost under the over-arching sneer in the author's tone.

The implication that Polycamp has become less 'family' focused seems spurious to me and it doesn't match with my experiences at Polycamp. It has always seemed to me that Polycamp is like any other gathering - people just wanting to be around people who understand them.

As for the stability of poly, it can and does happen, quite a bit. I've been married for 10 years and we've been poly the whole time. We're planning on at least 30 more years and all signs are looking good.
18
@ 15 and 16- in regard to what 16 (jamesx) says about highlighting the sexual aspect, i think thats why quintus is concerned about the tone of the article. we want to be sex positive, and at the same time we don't want to further the misconception that it is just about sex rather than multiple emotionally intimate relationships. having read the article again though, I think 15 makes a good point- no matter how carefully worded, this is always going to scandalize some people. thats the price of being out of the closet.
19
Dan

A couple of factual errors; I started Polycamp seven years ago as a two-day campout in Redmond. There was one picnic in a year when our venue fell through. And Polycamp has always been about the entire poly community: people with kids, people without, gay, straight, trans, you name it. It's hard serving such a diverse community but its a commitment I had and Quintus is continuing.

Theresa B.

And ours is not the only Polycamp. There are campouts in Vancouver BC, Austin TX, Florida, Virginia, Wisconsin, Quebec...ours is a growing and vibrant community.

Anyone interested in this years' campout go to www.polycamp.org.
20
LOL, Jamesx, I love your reference to Tristan und Isolde. People forget that the Greeks viewed the whole blind insanity thing in a less than positive way, as well. I've had my moments. We try to keep them to a reasonable minimum.
21
Oh, Sonder, why don't you just call us all "poly asshats" like you usually do, and be done with it? *laugh*

Love,
Rachael
22
@15: No, I do not think that "Adult Only" activities are negative- I just feel that the impression this article gives with that highlight coupled with Koe's portion it is attempting to scare people into thinking that poly people or this event do not have guidelines around children regarding their intimacies or other things that may not be appropriate in front of kidlets.

It's interesting to note, that when Dan interviewed me- we were speaking about how my wife and I felt it very important that our children have stability and that we lead by example (regarding them witnessing healthy relationships) and so we didn't want partners coming and going constantly- hence why we chose to be Poly- with stable long term relationships (we see poly as family overall). Anyway, he asked that when our last relationship of four years broke up, isn't that unstable. My reply was "no more than any monogamous relationship. I mean, look at the rate of divorce these days. I read an interesting article not that long ago that said- whenever a poly relationship falls apart, people will reply- that's your problem, poly doesn't work. But when a mono relationship fails, no one says- that's your problem, monogamy doesn't work". Guess my reply wasn't as damaging to kids as the next relationship and why it wasn't focused on in the article considering the rest of the tone.

And @ Dan Savage: I do sincerely hope you will attend. I think as someone who supports sex positive, kink positive, and alternative communities that you will learn much from direct witness.

Much love,
Quintus
23
i would also add, that in many poly relationships there is a much stronger sense of community- the whole it takes a village to raise a child thing- than many mono people now have. In situations like quintus', when a partner leeves a triad like that, there are still two stable committed parents left, and a strong community to back them up. Even when bio parents divorce in poly communities, they are more likely to remain amicable, hence a smoother transition for the child (granted there are always exceptions!). Having met koe and other kids raised poly, im continually impressed by how mature and emotionally healthy they are. I think this is because of the richness of their village- they gain much from having multiple loving parental figures.
24
what a beautiful illustration. well composed without too much detail and a perfect color scheme.
25
Quintus - keep in mind Dan's not a journalist, he's an entertainer. I can see what you mean about the tone but to my eye it's less intended bias or slant and more "these were the parts and pieces that fit to make a concise story".

I think, and I hope you will come to view, this story as doing more good than harm. My wife and I are poly and would be interested in polycamp if we weren't already committed those dates.
26
I love how poly is becoming more open and mainstream! I've been poly since the 80's too, when I was in my early twenties. Before the internet, you just didn't really know how to meet others like you or whether you were the only one with the crazy ideas.
Now we can send our kids to camp? Incredible!
27
@12 Romantic love is often fatal? And you base this conclusion off of Tristan und Isolde? Eesh.
28
While I am an open-minded individual, how is a woman being topless around underage children any more appropriate than a man having his genitalia out around underage children? I can see why the parents of the one child decided to not let their child over anymore, and that is strictly due to the possibility of indecent exposure.
29
I love the article.....and i think it is a good fit for the stranger's audience.
thanks Dan.
30
Just as a historic note, the word 'polycule' predates Koe's reinvention. I've been hearing it tossed around in the Boston Poly community for at least a decade.
31
Hrm, really interesting to see this article and the subsequent thoughtful discussion.

I'm reading as a person who has never been in a poly relationship but has certainly begun to feel very skeptical about the model of all-needs-met-by-single-lifelong-relationship.

While reading I did experience the normative anti-nudity/adult-activity around children urge (I mean, in the NW we have the personal reservedness of scandanavia without the sauna culture) which I honestly don't think had to do with poly in particular. I found the discussion of looking for long-term thirds and considering celibacy while children to be young to be really thoughtful and cautious: probably more so than similar calculations of straight monogamous people I've known. This article really normalized the idea of poly a lot more for me than any previous article on poly I've read in the Stranger (including for example, Mistress Matisse).

It seems to me that a big step in normalizing poly in the general culture will be about getting the word out about the non-physical benefits of having several intimate relationships (I think a lot of non-poly people have an unfair and uninformed view of poly people as just being sort of sexually greedy).

Also, the divisive: "you are against true human nature" dialogue being thrown both directions needs to go on the trash heap. Poly-people: you are never going to get monogamous people to think you are normal by telling them that they are not (or that they are lying to themselves, being deceived by popular culture, etc). I think "I" statements like the ones in this article about families and relationships will be a much more powerful tool towards acceptance.

This article really shows that this acceptance is important not just to poly people, but to their children, which makes the issue more accessible to the general culture I think.
32
@28: "While I am an open-minded individual, how is a woman being topless around underage children any more appropriate than a man having his genitalia out around underage children?"

You are aware of the biological function of breasts, right?
33
@31, I agree with everything you said. I just feel that it's necessary to add that it's important for anyone to be accepting of others, regardless of their beliefs and lifestyle. Acceptance is important to everyone (as part of that basic need for love and belonging. Those who say they don't need it at all are lying to themselves.) What a lot of people fail to realize is that without accepting other people's beliefs and lifestyles -- whether they agree with beliefs and lifestyles other than their own or not -- they are creating a smaller circle of acceptance for themselves.
35
I'm a long term poly (26 years with my first ever SO and 15 with our third). We've had a couple of others in there for shorter terms (SO number one currently has a new relationship). I've never had the bad breakups that @3 feels are normative for Poly relationships. Our families are clear and open with this and close friends know. Yes, I don't go screaming it from the rooftops, but otherwise we aren't so different from anyone else.

I wish there were local polycamps (Albany, NY). It would be nice to mingle with others.

tom
36
@7 - DeathatSea - It doesn't sound at all like Koe's parents did even the slightest thing wrong. She was prudent to warn her friend and, apparently, her parents were prudent, as well, since nothing out of the ordinary happened to the friend that stayed over in the story.

Before you use epithets like "so fucking stupid and out of touch with reality and the world around them, and are apparently lacking any sense of common decency", you might consider where your reaction is coming from, because there sure isn't anything in the article to validate it. This is all you.

Have fun throwing stones in your glass house.
37
@36 "It doesn't sound at all like Koe's parents did even the slightest thing wrong. She was prudent to warn her friend and, apparently, her parents were prudent, as well, since nothing out of the ordinary happened to the friend that stayed over in the story."

My point exactly... My only concern with the article is that it gives the overall impression that poly people are flagrant with their sexuality in front of children. As Dan says- "Speaking as a parent myself—a sex- positive, kink-positive parent—um... a bondage workshop? At a family camp? With kids running around?" Ya know, it wasn't all that long ago when Dan was adopting a child of his own and society was saying, "Two men in a homosexual relationship? With kids in the house?" Of all people, Dan should be able to relate to alternative cultures not being damaging to children and by sensationalizing "flagrant sexuality with children" (just as conservatives argued about gays raising children) really does the overall community a disservice (including his own).
38
Hey Quintus--I'm not poly and I don't know that much about it. My image of poly was of the sci-fi comic geeks in college trying to be cool. Not a super positive image, but not super bad either. I felt like the article was great in terms of opening my eyes to poly families. I took the comment of the Koa child to be an example of "Kids say the darndest things..."

Also, I was glad that Dan said the thing about the workshop. I was thinking "adult workshop" at a KIDS camp. The article answered my question. And, I was like "Oh course, stuff for adults, no problem." I also took it as an example that maybe you/the camp was biting off too much. But, I didn't see it as reflecting badly on you, the camp or the poly community.

Anyway, if I lived in Seattle I would come to poly camp and bring my 4 year old niece. It sounds like a lot of fun and a great supportive environment.

I'm so glad that you started it--thank you!
39
Sounds like kind of a selfish way to raise kids, with different girlfriends/maternal figures coming and going, but that's just my opinion.
40
#39 - How do you feel about single parents dating? With polyamory, the kids (usually) have two or more long term parental figures around. I'm surprised that you're focusing on girlfriends - the people I know in the community are from every gender.

Would you say that having more than two loving parental figures in a child's life is a bad thing?
41
The casual discarding of boundaries, and thoughtless transgression of other people's boundaries, is the pandemic of our age. It can spoil any type of relationship, poly, monogamous or simple friendship.

My daughters are old enough to talk with frankly as adults, and a common theme is that I cared enough to respect boundaries when I was in the home, even though we never hid our poly life. Their exposure to others who thought that "openness and honesty" meant BEING sexual around children left resentment and memories of being disrespected.

It's unfortunate that terms like "common human decency" need to be interpreted as stultifying or enslavement to tradition. We need much, much more respect among one another, and respecting boundaries, whether you agree with them or not, is what allows any form of family/community to grow and remain healthy.

And BTW: we're up to 40 comments in this thread and people still don't seem clear about the history of Polycamp. IT NEVER WAS A CAMP FOR CHILDREN. It was originally adults only and then evolved to the point that if you wanted to bring children there would be separate areas safe for family activities and anything of a more explicitly sexual nature would be kept entirely apart. Your bad Dan.
42
This bears repeating: POLYCAMP NEVER WAS A CAMP FOR CHILDREN. It was originally adults only and then evolved to the point that if you wanted to bring children there would be separate areas safe for family activities.

Maybe The Stranger could clarify this in print, since very few participate in the comment threads.
43
Nearly all parents want to protect their kids physically and emotionally, and work their lives accordingly. Some do better than others.
A single mother trooping endless boyfriends through the house is far more damaging than a relationship that lasts awhile, then ends amicably, as these do. Same goes for dads.
As a gay man who raised sons with his ex-wife, my kids have an unusual family that they're only now seeing as adults to be unusual. None of them has resented their odd family as adults. Kids are very adaptable, as long as parents are open and honest with them. These poly kids have a perspective that will only help them in life.
44
Some polys are nudists, some are not.
Some polys are swingers, some are not.
Some polys kinky, some are not.
Some polys are sci-fi fans, some are not.
Some polys are sex-positive, some are not.
Some polys are poor, some are not.
Some polys are intelligent and sophisticated, some are not.
Some polys are Catholic, some are not.
Some polys are exemplary parents, some are not.

All of the above can also be said of monogamous people. It's important not to conflate being poly with a whole bunch of other characteristics which might describe some poly people and not others.

I applaud Quintus' efforts to welcome as wide a variety of poly people to PolyCamp as he can. We are a very diverse community and we have a lot to learn from each other. Whoever you are, if you come to PolyCamp there's a good possibility you'll meet some folks with whom you have a good deal in common other than just being poly.

45
@10 I didn't come away from reading that with a negative impression of poly families. And, I think people are overreacting a bit to the nudity...it sounds a lot like the neighbourhood I grew up in in the 70s, you never knew who would be naked when you ran into a friend's house, and one of the communes where my best friend lived had some dedicated nudists living there, I don't remember anyone worrying about it "hurting" the children.
46
"Some polys are swingers, some are not."

Okay... Maybe I just don't get this poly thing. Isn't having multiple sex partners and swinging basically the same thing? Or is "swinging" swapping partners?
47
@ 10

Voicing an area of concern is not 'skewing the media'. I'm poly and I'd sure as hell want to know that the fun family 'polycamp' I'm encouraged to bring my son to would be hosting bondage lessons. I get that you guys are trying to be inclusive of all people, but as Dan touched on you sort of lose your focus. It's about poly kids! Wait... no... that excludes poly people without kids... It's about poly couples, too - see, fun sexy bondage activities! No, wait... what about poly couples who aren't kinky? CRAP.

It's like trying to host an event for "straight people... and their families"... That's a lot of turf to cover AND SPONSOR.

And as for the nudity thing... we're really open about nudity in our house. I don't want my kid growing up thinking his body is something to be ashamed about - but his body is something to be careful with. And if he came home from a sleepover and told me the PARENTS there were wandering around naked/half-naked/whatever? Sorry... there is a certain level of social conformity that is required when dealing with other people's children. Even if the other parents share your values, failing to show that basic initial respect is a HUGE red flag for negligence/predatory behavior.
48
@46, the distinction is between poly families who are long-term life partners and folks who have sex with multiple partners but aren't in LTRs (aside from maybe just LTSR).

And why do folks assume instantly that because you have adults-only stuff going on at the same time as kid stuff, the adult-only stuff is kinky or sexual?
49
I've appreciated this thread far more than I expected to. A discussion with 48 entries and very little 'flaming'? Wow. Is it just that way among Stranger readers or does this topic bring out more than average thoughtfulness?

The common theme seems to be the conflation (thanks for finding the right word Moonstorm) of Poly lifestyles with so-called 'sex positive culture'. I've found myself more and more frustrated about this. Thirty years ago I yearned for a community of people who understood multiple relationships, but I still have difficulty finding a milieu that isn't based on "we all have lots of sex with lots of people and that's what we have in common." That isn't a very firm foundation for community.

Monogamy isn't really all that natural, and the most encouraging thing about the Stranger article is that multiple (ongoing) relationships are about to become as public as same-sex marriage. Which also means it's about to attract the same backlash. Oh well. . .

OH - BTW! No one has mentioned bi-sexuality. It seems to me that if one is truly bi, poly relationships are the only rational option.
50
James, I was at the first Polycamp. There have always been children present. However, it has moved more and more towards a child-friendly event, which caused its initial venue change.
51
Jamesx@49, I don't think that poly is the only rational option for bi's. A bisexual person who is equally attacted to men and women no more "has" to have both than a woman who is equally attracted to tall men and short men or red heads and blonds. A bi person may be poly, just like a straight person or gay person may be poly, but many bis are monogamous by choice.
53
jamesx @49: "It seems to me that if one is truly bi, poly relationships are the only rational option."

A heterosexual person has a pool of around three billion other people to potentially be attracted to. A bisexual person has a pool of around six billion. What's a few billion people, give or take?
54
@47 Actually, focus really isn't a problem, IMHO...if an event isn't of interest to you, don't go to it, and if there's something you would like to see that's not going on, reach out to Quintus and see about setting it up. The only focus for Polycamp is that it's a gathering for poly people. The camp is what the community makes it.

I'd agree on the nudity part...thankfully, that's not what is being said about what was happening at Koe's house; I know the people there, and they are very conscious and caring about others.
55
As an avid PolyCamp Attendee, who has born witness to the full history of PolyCamp, I find that this article only tells half of the story. It does, however capture the present-tense conversation that PolyCamp is having. While is was once a childrens-space-over-here, adult-space-over-there kind of event, it has lately trended very strongly towards families. Even so, there has been adult-only space and as the director was quoted in the article as saying: we have rules.

While some polys are nudists and some are not, nothing is more highly regarded by polyamory than boundaries. We set them with great care and keep them. With boundaries such as, children do not go in this space, adults refrain from flogging each other in that space, and so on, we can enjoy greater freedom to explore any discussion we care to, however we care to explore it.

This is equivalent to a family friendly restaurant serving alcahol or having a bar. Children do not drink from mommy or daddy's cup, and do not cross the flimsy gate that demarks bar from restaurant. No one raises alarm when Red Robin has a child-friendly mascot handing out balloons and a bar in the same room because all adults, not just staff and not just parents, participate in keeping children out of the bar area. Our boundaries give us freedom, and make all kinds of combinations possible.

Savage may have hit the mark by describing our current scope as outside our reach, but for the moment we enjoy the connections we make with other poly families struggling to deal with the same issues. Neighbors, co-workers, and relatives prove to be significant challenges to most poly families, and gathering to share our hardships and triumphs helps us learn about survival in a world that misunderstands us. It is building a community.

Jen Boi
Poly-Queer Workshop Leader
56
The issue I would cite as particularly challenging for kids raised in poly communities is when they turn eighteen. Naming no names, there's nothing quite like watching a bunch of ponytailed poly men in their forties pursuing the newly legal fresh meat.
57
@56, You hit the nail on the head. If I had a nickel for every time I have seen that happen...
58
""This friend had never been over before, and I was explaining how things worked in our household—mom might come out topless, dad had a date downstairs. When her friend's parents asked their daughter how the sleepover went, she told them it was fine—and she also told them that Sozuteki's household was "nudity-positive" and that her father had a date in the house who was not Sozuteki's mother.

"She wasn't allowed to come over to my house anymore...."

Proper outcome. If the parents are so clueless to walk around naked in front of kids--particularly other people's kids--and have "dates" over for the night when other people are trusting their kids to them, those parents are not demonstrating the sort of care and respect necessary for other people to trust them with their kids.

Being "poly" is not a license to do stupid shit with other people's kids in the house, and then decry how no one understands your family. It seems they understand it just fine: you folks walk around naked in front of people not into that, and have people over for sexual relations while the kids are nearby. That is just not how you behave when your daughter has a sleepover.

Being poly doesn't change that, folks.
59
This whole "ply" movement kind of reminds me of previous utopian movements that tried to change American sexual mores. Feminist separatism, for instance.

Like other utopian movements, such as feminism, it addresses real problems with mainstream sexual politics. In the case of monogamy, the primary one being the biological difficulty of maintaining sexual exclusiveity with one partner. Also, of course the hypocrisy of proclaiming monogamy while tolerating a certain amount of "secret" cheating.

And like other movements, such as anarchism, the "poly" scene seems to have attracted a fair number of weirdos and predators looking for an excuse to act like assholes.

Hopefully the poly movement will make more peopel aware of the limitations, or at least the underlying assumptions, or monogamous practice, and hopefully it will succeed in creating a more free and tolerant society.

However, I personally would avoid this kind of scene. It seems a little cult-like, or at least a little quasi-religiously flakey.
60
@59. . "I personally would avoid this kind of scene. It seems a little cult-like, or at least a little quasi-religiously flakey."

You've put your finger on the dilemma facing anyone who comes to realize that they are poly and/or bi by nature. I sometimes wonder what it was like for an older gay man in San Francisco in the 70's. He might look askance at the circus on Castro Street and yet somehow in the back of his mind is the knowledge that he's not such an outcast anymore. He might also find that now there are people with whom he can talk with openly, which he couldn't do before. He might even discover that now it's easier to find a potential partner. But how to avoid the circus? Not so easy.
61
and @51. . "but many bis are monogamous by choice."

You may be right, but if so I'd like to meet them. They must be candidates for sainthood. Or are they maybe just enduring a low-level torment every day and using all their self-discipline to keep the "LID on the ID"? I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the poor souls who have been 'cured' of homosexuality by their church are of this type. They get confirmation of their cure if they like sex with an opposite-sex partner, but maybe they were just bi all along.
62
"But when a mono relationship fails, no one says- that's your problem, monogamy doesn't work".

Yes, yes they do. In fact as much as I love Reading Dan, he does it quite frequently.
63
@56 As if that doesn't happen to women everywhere anyway? Nothing quite like turning 18 and having Dad's friends (single, divorced, or whatever) start turning into leering creeps.
64
@7: How did you go from "have a date" to "fucking", and presumably somewhere in open view or with an unlocked door, if a girl can just stumble upon them because of a wrong turn?

You know, if I sent my (hypothetical) kid to another family's house, I'm going to assume that the regular ol' hetero two-party-maximum parents have sex too. That's how kids come into being, apparently.

I just assume that while my kid is over there, they're smart enough to keep it down and lock their bedroom door, or if they can't, just spend a quiet evening watching a movie, having a glass of wine, or talking to each other -- you know, stuff that can be defined as a "date."
65
@64 'How did you go from "have a date" to "fucking". . . ?'

Oddly enough, among the poly crowd that I've gotten to know over the past almost-two-decades, if you have a partner that you don't live with, the term 'date night' almost always means 'have sex'. It would be interesting to know if this is also true of the current generation of straight serial monogamists.
66
Quintus - as a non poly person, someone who knows very little about it, I'd say "calm down".

I assume the article was aimed at people like me - people who are mostly ignorant about your community, but generally more or less sex positive, open, and tolerant (or we wouldn't be reading this blog). The liberal mainstream, call it.

And it was a positive article. It presented a community that is mostly happy and well adjusted, doing well, and caring for their children. The fact that it did not present the poly lifestyle as totally trouble free is a good thing - no lifestyle is totally trouble free. We're intelligent adults reading this, and we want to read what Dan saw and thought. If you had been 100% pleased with the article, that would be a sign that Dan had not done his job of looking at as much of a whole picture as he could see - he would have just been portraying your spin.

I came away from this article with a generally positive picture of the poly community in Seattle. I suspect that anyone openminded enough to be reading the article in the first place would feel the same. The fact that it's not all hearts and flowers just means that it's real, not Disney.
67
It seems incredibly disrespectful that the parents in this story didn't give their child's friend's parents SOME kind of heads up. Just a "Hey we'd love to have your daughter over by the way we have a nudity positive poly household. If you don't want your daughter around that maybe you could have our daughter over instead?"
I hope that other poly people demonstrate a little better taste and manners when dealing with more traditional families.
68
Keep the fucking hairy hippie poly hags off my lawn.

And tell you kid to stop fingerbanging my daughter or I'm voting for Dino Rossi.

What man in his right mind would go for Polyamory. Are these people crypto-Mormons or something.

The whole thing needs some banjo music in the background.
69
You better stop our daughters from making out with each other at your hippie sleepovers or I'm voting for Dino Rossi and running over fixies with my Landrover.

I can't wait to have to pay taxes for the therapy all these kids will need. Methinks the actual 'parents' might be hard to find in giant cloud of pot smoke and flapping scrotes and tits.

70
I was intrigued to learn that a thing like polycamp even exists, though I confess I'm a little depressed to learn that being poly has been more-or-less mainstream for so long now that the community now has kids old enough to go canoeing and roast marshmellows.

Why depressed? Because I've always sort-of identified as poly, and in my thirty years have never met another individual (much less a woman - I'm a straight male) who has even considered the idea. The closest I've got is a couple of troubled open relationships in which previous partners have taken the liberties we've agreed to, and then got jealous if I dared to do the same.

I've pretty much given up on the idea and settled for traditional monogamous relationships with traditional girls because I've learnt that it's that or going single. I'm an open-minded fun loving happy go lucky kind of guy too, and I think I'd make a great poly. I've just never had a chance to find out.

Is it just because I'm living in a stunted backwater of the world (Australia), or am I just blind? Put simply, is polyamoury as mainstream as polyamourists seem to think, and if it is where are they all hiding?
71
@61: Hi! Happily monogamous bisexual over here. You want to know what I do when I see a hot chick or dude and want to sleep with them? I don't. It's about respect for my partner, and the terms and boundaries that we have agreed upon in our relationship, and I like it that way. It's not a feat of superhuman strength not to sleep with someone. Well, maybe it is for you, I don't know your life. And, hey- aren't "respect" and "boundaries" what all the poly people have been saying are important in relationships?

As for those church-brainwashed "ex-gays", I can't decide if I feel extremely sorry for them or really pissed off at what they're saying about the rest of us. Both, I suppose. Anyway, they may well be monogamous, they may or may not be bi, but I doubt they're happy about it.

Oh, finally- the bondage workshop at the family camp hit my creepy button. Not for being poly, or for being kinky; I'm pretty kinky myself. But there's a reason that the Sandals chain runs completely separate resorts for couples and families, and it's about maintaining mental boundaries as much as physical ones.
72
OK, it may be too late to weigh in here, but I wanted to respond to a couple of the comments here.

I am a bi-girl in a poly relationship that is quite successful so far. No kids yet, but we are all still relatively young, there is time.

Per @71, I would also keep the bondage workshop in an adults-only gathering. Not just because of the psychic space thing, but as a kid who always found out about stuff like this and found a way to sneak in/spy, I have a hard time believing there isn't some bleed-over that just wouldn't be appropriate. Keep in mind, reading this, that I am into that myself, so it is not a moralistic veiwpoint.

Regarding the bi comments, I agree with all of them, kinda. Poly does allow for more expression of my full complement of sexual desires and emotional needs, and that's what I like about it - I am not someone who could just be with one person and not feel somewhat stifled. However, I still keep them within the contracts agreed upon in my relationships, as would any truly monogamous person, as I have when I was in monogamous relationships.

I think poly is a wonderful thing, and I wish it could be more socially known and accepted. So far in my experience, poly people tend to be more self-aware and considerate of others, more conscious of the actual agreements being made, less into game-playing, than most other people I have known.

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