Features Jun 5, 2013 at 4:00 am

Two Can Play at This Game!


Also: if you are being harassed by a crew of dudes on break, see if you can figure out who they work for and then call their corporate number. You don't have to ask - check hardhats/vests/public notices. Some supes may condone harassment as "boys being boys", but HR will get in their face about it.
I usually just pretend to be on my phone when encountering wolf packs - it might not stop the "Hey baby how you doin tonight" comments, but it does tend to help me not get called a bitch for ignoring them as I walk away.
It's like walking around with the equivalent of a million dollars in your pocket all day every day and everyone wants some. Why can't you just feel rich instead of shitting on every man on earth because you have what every man on earth wants? Oh right, it is only OK when the advances are from a suitor you deem appropriate.
These responses are amusing and I get "esprit d'escalier, but these scenarios may well escalate a situation to further abuse, threat of physical harm or loss of a job. Unless you are in a place where others might help you out or you are capable of fighting back, be careful. Your boss isn't going to thank you for telling a customer you're going to castrate him. Your boss is required to keep your work-place free of sexcual harrassment so perhaps it's better to involve her when customers are out of line. Insulting back at a drunk might result in a shouting match or worse. @ 1, good suggestion.
@Six Five says we should feel lucky to be harassed, groped and menaced on the street by strangers because they are 'advances from a suitor'. Ha! Please read the end of the article and recite: "I'm a sad, delusional trap-door spider who repulses women with my words and actions."
"What men need is a wake-up call: You're the problem." FUCK you. How about if I wrote an article about child abuse--most of which is committed by women--and included that statement: "What women need is a wake-up call about beating, humiliating, and neglecting their kids. You're the problem." How's that fucking feel?

Btw, do any black or hispanic guys ever harass women? Because from these cartoons it seems to be all white guys. Which is not exactly what I hear from my female friends when they are being candid.
@3 I agree.

"It's no different than if someone walked up to you and slapped you in the face."

Actually IT IS different. In many of these situations, you can just ignore them and walk away. This isn't "harassment", which is defined as "characteristically repetitive". Most of these situations aren't repetitive.

Someone says "nice ass" on the street? I take it as a compliment even if it's from another guy. It's a true statement and it just needs to be repeated out loud.
I definitely use headphones to my advantage... but when the opportunity presents itself I usually alternate between laughing at the sad little dude or asking, "Did your daddy just not raise you right?!"
@Robin5050 No, that isn't what he was trying to convey. I hope you do actually understand that.

There aren't pictures of ripped guys making these taunts. Most of them are fat and balding. If they were hot guys, I don't think as much offense would be taken.
@7 Legally, it's actually not any different at all. If you ever touch someone who doesn't want to be touched, you are assaulting them.
And... cue the commenters that just don't get it and can't seem to get it even after reading multiple articles and their associated commentary (i.e., willfully retarded individuals).
I think this article is missing a few points. If it's only about street harassment, then okay. But if you want to talk about misogynists, talk about them. They come in all shapes and sizes, and many of them do not do the dog whistles or lewd gestures. Many of them are local musicians, artists, and other "normal" guys who save their misogyny for the women they date. Some are more obvious and shameless than others, but some are downright deceptive. They talk about women's rights. And in reality, they treat women like an inferior species. Maybe doing an article on THAT type of misogynist would help clarify that not all of these dicks are going to stare you down at the bus stop or yell obscenities at you. Just a thought. It's just as damaging (if not more so) to find yourself in a relationship with one of these assholes (or, worse yet, become related to them by marriage). The nondescript types need to know that they are no higher in the ranks than the ones you've listed here.
As a guy who routinely stares into space, space that sometimes is or comes to be occupied by a person or people, I would rather be snapped from my reverie at mildly uncomfortable rather than searching for or found your cheese-turned-scrotal-grater.
@10 You're right. I copied and pasted the wrong section.
@6 Most of the male population of the US, and to a greater proportion in Seattle, is white.

Seriously, get over your aggrieved ass.
Anything else you want to share with women about how we're doing it wrong when it comes to staying safe, sane, and alive out there? Cause you know, it's totally our jobs to make sure men know that being a creep is creepy.
Robin @ 5 -- If you want, we can get into how it is a concrete social norm and expectation that the man makes the first move. These are men making first moves (classless, gross, whatever; I concede).

You only like to hear that you have nice tits from the upper tier of possible mates. Like a kid who wants to play with a toy. But not just ANY toy. The best toy, happy ever after toy! And it is offensive to you to be presented with any other toys unless it is a toy you like.

It is very difficult to construct this idea in any way that isn't offensive, but listen, women: IT'S ALL ABOUT YOU. You get all this damned attention and advances and harassment because the world revolves around your pussy. You only like this fact of life when you are able to wield this to your love life/benefit/gain, or ~~~empowerment~~~, and not for the burden that the power brings along with it.
@17) Still single, huh?
"What men need is a wake-up call: You're the problem. If not you personally, then your best friend, a coworker, or that dude in your fantasy football league is. You're making us feel unsafe every day, in a thousand different ways."

See, this right here is where you lose me a little bit.

I don't make advances like that towards women. I couldn't even conceive of doing so. Fair enough, you respond: but your friends do, and you don't call them on it! That's your duty!

Okay. But I can honestly say that I've never seen friends or acquaintances do that either. No, I'm definitely not saying it doesn't happen. Part of that, I suspect, is I've worked hard in my life to maintain the kind of social circles that don't include the sort of guy who introduces himself to women he's never met by putting his fingers through his tongue.

Have I seen random men on the street do it? Yeah, now and then. So are you asking me to pick fights with random meth heads on the street when they holler at you? I ask half-seriously.
Much as I agree that street harassment is the absolute worst -- and truly, it is. When it's a daily occurrence, it doesn't feel complimentary, it makes you feel entirely worthless and degraded -- this is still pretty blame-y. I play nicely with creepers on the bus/the street/the bar/wherever I am because it's a matter of safety. It's just easier to get through the situation without inflaming it.

Does that solve anything? No, but that's why I've written about the subject/talked to my male friends about it/participated in SlutWalk. If there's anything women are doing wrong re: street harassment, it's that we don't speak up about it in safe spaces frequently enough.

I appreciate this on its face, and the work that's being done on the Slog about the subject, but the illustration is pointing the finger in the wrong direction.
@GabrielDiesel - I don't want to be harassed by anyone, it doesn't matter what they look like. If the person in question is engaging in any of the practices above, I'm not interested.
Check out Hollaback! -- an organization dedicated to ending street harassment that is powered by local leaders in 64 cities and 22 countries globally. We're at ihollaback.org -- and would love to work with the Stranger on a follow up episode! You can email us at holla@ihollaback.org.
@six five

1. You don't need to be a millionaire to have people asking for your money.

2. If I were a millionaire, I would still expect people to leave me the fuck alone.

3. Anyone I would deem an "acceptable suitor" would not make their existence or interest known to me by any of the above tactics. Instead, they would TRY TO GET TO KNOW ME AS A PERSON. Weird concept, I know.

4. If you're using those tactics to be considered as a suitor, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.


Genuine compliments are direct, don't require an audience, and are given after considering if the compliment will be appreciated. Anything you might deem a compliment from the above examples are none of those things. It's not a compliment for someone to publicly evaluate you, especially when it's unwanted (which is basically always). It's just rude.
Goddammit, someone needs to address the retards on here who insist on clinging to the notion that if it were some attractive, hot guy who said "Nice tits" or made a lewd gesture, or in any other way treated us like we were a burger instead of a person, we would somehow be receptive to the possibility of "mating" with that person.
If it were the hottest guy I could think of saying something like that, or acting that way, it would still be an instant "Whoa, WTF?? Gross" reaction from me. I would assume the guy was an asshole. So save your idiotic notions for the trash bin of stale leftovers from decades past, because they're NOT REALITY.

"Nice ass" evaluated by your "genuine compliment" test.

1: Direct. Yes.
2: Audience is not required. Just the complimenter and complimentee. You seem to believe that compliments should not be "public", but I disagree.
3: Unwanted? There's no way to evaluate what someone is thinking when they're walking away from you on the street.
#3 Right on point one. That's what it feels like. Wouldn't you be afraid of someone stealing your million bucks if you were walking around with all that cash in your pocket??? As to the rest, if this is how you court a gal no wonder you've been shit on. I know no women who deem these types of suitors appropriate. But then, that's a straw man and you know it.
tbh, ~90% of the women i see while out in the world are not attractive.

so the point about all women walking around with a million dollars is bullshit. most have enough for rent and bills that month, and are maybe socking away a bit at a time for a vacation they'd like to take. kinda like most everyone else.

and the ten percent i do find to be attractive? i treat them like i treat any other person i come in contact with randomly, and that is with respect and tact. i don't participate in any of the depicted scenarios. i think men who do are shitheads.

really though, shouldn't this weak attempt at an article be on jezebel, as they kinda have the market cornered in regard to hyperbole fueled drivel.

i'm guessing this post will be written of as having been written by some mysoganisyic rape apologist, who hates women and thinks he's the shit while stumbling blindly through social discourse and doesn't have many smart and talented female friends who make many excellent points regarding this topic that i consider just as valid as any man's. but, youd be wrong. mostly i just have a low patince threshhold for bullshit.
@19 No, I think we're asking that you take a more active role in assuming that this is not a "women's issue", it's a social issue. So get out there and support the next Slut Walk.
This was a daily hassle for me when I rode the bus, now I drive my own vehicle to work harassment free.
I was asked to get into a vehicle twice in one year, once in Greenwood and once downtown in front of Macy's. No thanks, perverts.
I had my ass slapped by a random guy outside 5th and Jackson pretty recently and it is definitely the most surprising thing ever. The guy ran so I couldn't get a picture or a great description of him but he was definitely old enough to know better.

I've never seen so many misogyny apologists in one comment section in my life. What is wrong with you people to think behavior like this is OK?
Jesus. Here come the defenders of hateful trolls. Telling a woman "Nice ass" is not the opening gambit in a romantic exchange. It's not "making the first move," #17. (There's a lot of anger in that post--and to suggest that sexual harassment is just "the burden" that the power of our pussies brings along with it is just retarded.) NOBODY who yells "Nice tits!" expects the woman to happily begin a relationship with them. It's obviously a power play. Even a smoking hot guy, if he really wants to get to know me, should talk to me like a human being, not just a female piece of meat (later, when we know each other better, he can compliment the hell out of my body parts). Also, #3, how did an article bemoaning verbal sexual harassment become "shitting on every man on earth"? What kind of guy are you that you think EVERY man acts like this? I pity the women in your life.
As a man who likes to consider himself an ally to women and who is infuriated when I hear about things like this happening to women I know, I want to suggest that any man who feels similarly should also take some time to think about what they can do to intervene when they witness stuff like this happening. Around the time of Cienna's original post around this, I heard a few other stories from friends (and my sweetheart) about stuff that had recently happened to them. It got me fired up to start confronting other men when I saw them harassing women on the street.

But just two days ago, I was walking home and saw a woman walking towards me. A car was driving in the same direction she was walking, and the driver of the car (there were a few other men inside) called out, "Hey girl!" to her. She ignored them and kept walking. They did it again, and she ignored them again. I got really pissed off and thought about telling them to leave her alone and that she obviously didn't want to talk to some random guy shouting out of his car, but by the time I even formulated that response, she had stepped into a shop, and the car kept going.

I'm planning to think about this more, so that next time I see something like this happen, I'll be ready to say something. I'd encourage other men who want to fight street harassment to do the same.

I don't care if folks want to pick this or me apart for feeling this way. This shit is wrong and needs to stop.

@30, Actually for the internet, this is fairly light on the misogynists.

@six five, Women aren't allowed to have tastes and standards? I mean the idea that the world revolves around pussy is laughable -- although for the Republican party, things do seem to revolve around controlling our pussies -- but you seem genuinely aggrieved that a woman might prefer the attentions* of someone she is attracted to over the attentions of someone she isn't. Apparently merely having a pussy requires you to dole it out in some kind of democratic fashion, so that every penis-haver gets "his share."

*Not that the things described in the article count as "attentions." What they are is what they are intended to be, harassment and an attempt to put women in their place for existing in public.

six five, get off the Mens Rights blogs or Reddit threads on "friend zoning" or whatevertheshit poison you are consuming, stop feeling sorry for yourself, stop pretending that guys have it SO ROUGH, and go out into the real world and treat everybody decently without presuming you know what it likes to walk in their shoes.

You'll be happier and you might even get laid.
@3, comparing any woman to "walking around with a million dollars" in their pocket is exactly the type of thinking that perpetuates this behavior. reducing women to "what they have to offer" or "what they're worth" is the best way to come across as a piece of shit, whether it's actually a million bucks or "nice tits" or however you want to bill it. the idea that women have inherent "value" based on what they have to offer physically, or on "mating potential" is just dooming society to continue this amazingly stupid rape culture.

@25, unwanted, exactly. there IS no way to evaluate the response, nor is there one expected in a street interaction, therefore it's entirely for the benefit of the harrasser. if you hit someone with your car and then drive away, you don't have timet to evaluate their reaction, how do you know THAT'S not unwanted?

guys (yes, guys), this whole thread has really suprised and disgusted me. i thought slog readers were better than this.
@18 heyyoooooo.
I think it's amusing to see so many men offended by having rude behavior called out and trying to justify it by saying women are just too sensitive. @9 even thinks we'd be less upset if we were being insulted by hot guys. I've been dealing with this type of behavior most of my life, and I honestly have never understood why guys do this. The result is a woman who is frightened and/or pissed off. Not exactly the way a suitor behaves @3.

I don't necessarily agree with the advised responses, though can infer that they are intended to be somewhat humorous. But for any guy who thinks any of the inciting behavior is appropriate under any circumstance - maybe you can tell me why you think it's okay and what you are trying to achieve?
@35 I think it could very easily be assumed that no one wants to be hit with a car. However, when I'm on the streets in Capitol Hill, I don't mind the "public compliments". I work hard at the gym, and wear tight jeans on the street when I'm out to have fun. It makes me feel good to know that people out there find my ass attractive and that they say so. But I'm a guy and I know it won't go any further unless I want it to. I imagine if I were weak, I would be afraid of the complimenters.
I am not going to fear escalating these situations as much as I've been told to. I have my wits about me at all times. As a woman, I am told to be afraid, that I'm smaller. I carry mace and I have committed to myself to first threaten it and then, in the time it takes to unlatch it from my purse and point it with precision, I WILL MACE ANYONE THAT TOUCHES ME UNWANTED. What if there were more accounts in the media reporting on women macing misogynists ? I'd be ok with that.
I live in Belltown and make the walk down 3rd to catch the bus to Capitol Hill on an almost daily basis to get to School & Work. Although I don't take it as feeling degraded or demeaned, because I don't have the time or capacity to give a fuck, in most situations these advances are completely inappropriate. I've dealt with freaks on the 358, i've called out guys preying on other girls on the bus, i've nearly gotten in fights with shit-hammered bros at bars after I told them to fuck off, and i've had to pretend friends were my husbands just to get guys to leave me alone (i'm sure plenty of ladies have played that game..) It gets annoying but I don't let anyone have power over me to let myself be overly bothered with someone's blatant idiocy. If they're going to be dumb, then immediately excuse their existence. Know that they're fucking degenerates, and treat them as so - if you do it the right way, they'll feel like crap about themselves two minutes after you've even walked away, and it only takes a few words and is more damaging then a gross attempt that gets a rise out of you. If someone is blatantly groping you - CALL THE FUCKING COPS and pepper spray that asshole in the face until they get there. That is never okay.

Obviously, there can often be some serious danger behind street harassment because these situations can lead to sexual assault. I'm almost 25 and have always lived in and around the city, which has led me to be without a license without much need for one so I mostly walk and take the bus everywhere. I deal with this shit all the time, but the ONLY TIME I believe it is truly okay to make a huge scene and follow through with one of these scenarios is when you're in a TRULY SAFE place or if you know the situation is dangerous or you know there is something very wrong happening or about to happen. Just because a guy says some stupid comment, does not mean you should hit them or call them out and try to "threaten" them. Unless you are safe or know something serious is about to happen, in attempt to scare them off. Don't get overly personal just say "HEY. DUDE. LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE NOW AND GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY FACE" in a serious, intense tone and they'll back down (if not, say 911 or Police in any context). I get hit on by a lot of gross people, and some guys at bus stops or on particular buses and avenues are seriously dangerous, mentally ill people that could seriously hurt you or put you in a dangerous situation. Don't fuck around, and don't get hurt or get yourself in worse situation - choose your battles, don't get personal, don't stop, listen to your fucking instincts and know when to call the police if something escalates.
@37: Behavior like these is always inappropriate. But since you say you don't understand why, I will explain it: Men do it because we experience strong desires based upon visual sights. The difference between creeps and normal people is only self-discipline and self-control, just like any other crime.
@17: You're a broken toy and no one wants to play with those.
@41 - Women experience strong desires on sight too but we have, usually, enough self respect and respect for others to keep it quiet.

Want to go out on a date with someone? Ask them out for coffee or a beer like a civilized human being - don't cat call, grab, whistle, or what ever other idiotic idea pops in your head.
@25 So rather than assume that this brand of negative, belittling attention is unwanted, you take the "she's asking for it" approach? Fuck you. As for it your assertion of it not being "repetitive," you may not be repeatedly harrassing the same random woman on the street, but she absolutely IS being repeatedly harrassed. And you're contributing to it. You're part of the problem.

@32 Agreed. I was recently walking home with my girlfriend after a night out and some meathead said "you have really nice tits" to her. No shame. It caught me so off guard, it wasn't until 2 blocks later that I realized I should have said "right back at ya" to the fuck. Thankfully, my much more articulate lady screamed at him "that's fucking harrassment, you asshole!" She said if I wasn't with her, she wouldn't have said anything and would have walked much faster. This shit happens to her all the time. It's also happened to both of her daughters, ages 18 and 14. Gross.

Bottom line, if all you sad little boys out there want women to not assume you're a rapist, then stop acting like one. The attention isn't unwanted because you're not attractive enough. Your looks have nothing to do with it, so get over yourself. It's your behavior that makes you unattractive. You're not complimenting a woman on her looks, you're telling her that you're prone to random hormone-driven outbursts, you can't control yourself in public, and you objectify women and inherently have zero respect for them. It's these characteristics that make you unsuitable as a mate. No "happily ever after" has ever started with "nice ass." Next time, maybe open with "hi." Or better yet, just leave her alone.
@13, Don't worry about it. That's not the kind of staring that's threatening. If I see a man daydreaming on the subway and looking in my general direction, I wouldn't view that as a threat at all.
@17 very simple way to construct your ideas in a much less offensive manner: stop referring to our "tits" and "pussies", for one.

Also, the larger point of this article is that there is a serious problem with this institutionalized belief that not only are men entitled to lewd comments on strangers' bodies, but women should be thankful for these comments as if we are to derive our worth from being found attractive. And if we don't respond positively (or worse yet, think you're harassing us), then we must be bitches, feminazis, and out to emasculate the oh-so-aggrieved male population. The fact that men are generally taught to believe things like this or that some men think they deserve a trophy for NOT treating women like an entitlement to is the problem here.
@six-five (and any other guys here to whom this may apply): Don't you have a sister, a mother, a niece, a daughter...some female person in your life that you have no interest in fucking and for whom you can muster some basic fucking empathy?

(Note that I didn't include "girlfriend" or "wife", because it is very clear to me that you are an angry dude who thinks he's entitled to the attentions and affections of women.)

Despite every impulse I have to say truly horrible things to you, I'm going to allow for the possibility that you are just a dumb fucking young guy (late teens, early 20s) whose brain is polluted by too much porn, too much pop culture garbage, and too much time on echo-chamber websites filled with other pissed off sexually frustrated dudes. Failing that, you are an older guy who has failed to progress beyond that developmental stage. In either case, you still have time.

As best I can tell, virtually all straight guys go through a period where their expectations of sex and relationships collide with the complex realities of interacting with actual women. I certainly did. Believe me, I get how frustrating it is. But that is no excuse for being an entitled asshole.

It's time to grow up. You still have time to pull your head out of your ass, to stop thinking that "the world revolves around pussy", and to stop making your world revolve around your dick.

You don't have to enroll in womens' studies or anything, but you really should do a couple of things.

1. Make friends with women. Like, actual friends, not just talking to them as part of your campaign to fuck them.

2. Be more interesting. "But I'm plenty interesting!" you say. No, you aren't. If you were, you wouldn't be trolling this blog. Put down Reddit, and read a book or two. Learn an instrument. Take a foreign language. Learn how to build stuff. SOMETHING. Learn how to interact with people (including female people!) in contexts that don't have anything to do with getting your dick wet.

There is a big world out there where people are doing things besides fucking. But if you learn to treat women (all of them) like human beings instead of your own personal fuck dolls, and manage to be a more appealing partner yourself, you might eventually find it a bit less frustrating.
@45 ha ha. Fuck you too. :) Glad we got that out of the way.

I'm just saying that you don't know if the person doesn't want it. I do. I like compliments screamed at me from passing cars or tables or wherever. I could assume that if I want it, everyone does, but that probably wouldn't be accurate. I'm a single straight guy, so your mileage may vary from mine.

As should be obvious, there is a HUGE difference between verbal shouts of "hey nice ass!" and touching someone, or rape. I don't know why this isn't apparent and I'm sick of all the "rape culture" or rapist comparisons.

*sigh* I don't think street harassment will ever go away when so many people, even here in educated, liberal Seattle, are eager to defend the practice.

Those folk should go listen to Dan's podcast this week. Guys, the misogyny and harassment in our culture makes it harder for you to get laid. It's in your interest to make the culture more respectful of women.
Thank you for this article. I agree. However, I believe your rhetoric might have the consequence of estranging some persons from your point, and no additional benefit. Specifically, your specific target of all men--and if not an individual specifically--his friend, is a little hostile. Look, I'm not upset or up in arms over it. But I also don't see why it was necessary. The vast majority of men do not do these things, and a solid subset of men hold nothing but malice for other men who do make women feel unsafe or disrespected. I don't have any friends who do these acts.

The issue is that you're "shooting the messenger" in this post. Ostensibly, you wrote this article not only to vent, but also to try and play a part in the small but steady social change. For that I applaud you. But if you come across as rude or angry to those of us who would rather empathize with you, you only harm our cause. Because yes, I do have a mother, and I've been with her when she's been catcalled before when I was a child. It made me feel unsafe and scared, and I haven't forgotten. So I have to admit, to even be casually grouped in the same categories as others who have done that comes across as hurtful to me.

I hope having read my comment you don't think about a strong argument about why I'm wrong. I don't doubt you could write one. But as some other people in these comments not so eloquently argued themselves, your usage of 'men' generally did insult some people. I respect your need to vent at times without fear of offending, as you certainly have that right. But perhaps when in a public forum a little decorum in some areas could solidify your argument.

Thank you for your post.
Just remember, if you go around bothering strangers on the street, they have the right to be bothered by it.

Personally, I have the superpower of always being able to think of the perfect comeback in most any confrontation. The key is knowing what situations are deserving of the true gold. Street Harassment = Fair Game.

Him: Nice tits!
Me: *looks at his chest* You have an awfully high opinion of yourself. *points at the ever-present friend(s) and walks away* As long as you and your boyfriend(s) are happy with 'em.

Everyone's always like "oh but that could escalate the situation..." and I'm like "Then he'll wind up in jail..." (For the record, it very rarely escalates things. The few times it has, they were arrested).

Not too long ago, while I was waiting for the light to change in a crowd of about 15 or so complete strangers (a mix of male and female, ranging from 20's-50's), some guy who was hanging out in front of the store on the corner said something to me. Without even looking at the guy, I turned to one of the other random strangers in the crowd - also male - and said very LOUDLY "Do YOU want to F*uck this guy? He's so desperate he's begging for it on the street like it's change."

When the guy I spoke to looked disgusted and emphatically went "NO!" I then looked around, one-by-one, at everyone else in the crowd and everyone looked horrified, embarrassed, and offended and they all shook their heads 'no.' Finally, I turned to the harasser, who at this point looked mortified, and said, "Sorry, dude, I tried to help. I guess random strangers on the street don't want to f*ck you. Next time you could try busking for it, at least...." At that moment the crossing signal I was waiting for changed, and I walked away while all of his buddies laughed at him.
@49 "As should be obvious, there is a HUGE difference between verbal shouts of "hey nice ass!" and touching someone, or rape. I don't know why this isn't apparent and I'm sick of all the "rape culture" or rapist comparisons."

Yes, one is assault and the other is harassment. Both are unacceptable.

If you're here trolling waiting for some woman to come along and be all like, "OMG I LUVS THAT!!!!!" you're an idiot.

Take a fucking hint already.
Somewhat okay compliment:
"Those shoes look fabulous."
Walks on.

Giant pile of shit attempt at forcing unwanted intimacy:
"Sweet ass!"
Feels entitled to ANY sort of interaction afterwards.

What some of you assholes don't understand and what has been stated repeatedly is that:

A: Injecting yourself uninvited into some strangers life on the street entitles you to NOTHING in response.

B: Injecting yourself uninvited into a smaller and weaker strangers life on the street can be seen as threatening to that person. You don't know their life experience or situation.

C: If you injecting yourself uninvited into a strangers life on the street that stranger has every right to tell you to fuck off. That person may have been an assault victim or perhaps something as ordinary as considering the cancer diagnosis of their mother or maybe thinking about having to fire a co-worker. You don't know shit about them.

D: Learn to read the body language and signals other people give off before you open your mouth to strangers. Get off the fucking internet and learn basic civility and manners. Unless you are 100% certain you are seen as a friend, then fuck off.

E: Understand you may make mistakes and misinterpret other peoples signals and assume it's YOU that made the mistake if somebody tells you to fuck off.

F: Don't be an asshole.
@52 That sounds awesome. :)You have a rare talent.
Want to meet up for a beer or coffee?
1970> ...when you strip off all the packaging, you must finally realize that the essence of being a "woman" is to get fucked by men.
Ya know some of these might also work against people who harass cyclists as well.
Human beings, regardless of sex should not be subjected to any type of harassment. Period.

That said, the word misogyny is used inappropriately in this case as well as others. It is a hatred towards women in general. From the oed online:

@57 That's true. Many cyclists I know have nice asses as well. :)

Here is something you may have never considered before:

-The world is not a huge extension of you.

-The "you" you know stops a nano-meter outside the cohesive layers of your cell walls.

- Every other being analogous to you that you see walking around out there is an entirely different sentient being. With entirely different opinions. lives and experiences.

- Assume your biases only for yourself and not the other entities that lay outside yourself.

-Shutting your stupid fucking noise hole every now and again and instead opening those apparently atrophied sensors on the side of your soft as shit skull will do you a world of good.
GabrielDiesel: As a straight guy, your view of unsolicited sexual comments is much like a person who is thirsty asking whether drowning people might "enjoy the water".
@49: "I'm a single straight guy, so your mileage may vary from mine"

So why don't you shut the fuck up and listen to someone for once in your idiot life?

Hmm. Do you like to make posts that repeat the sentiment expressed originally?

"I could assume that if I want it, everyone does, but that probably wouldn't be accurate."

Of course I know that others don't like to be treated the same way as like to be treated.
@62 Huh. Who should I listen to?
God, those illustrations in particular are so good. So so good.
At the bottom of this article in my browser, there is an advertisement for ModCloth with the words "Escape in Style." How ironic.
@61 Well, people drowning in brackish or salt water may be thirsty as they cannot drink the surrounding water without getting sick. So, yes I would offer these individuals water.
For all the idiots who keep saying that if the dude was hot, we'd cream in our panties instead of being disgusted and wanting to punch a motherfucker. NOPE. I've been on dates with men I've found incredibly attractive. The following are things good looking dudes have said to me that resulted in them NOT getting another date:
"You seem like you'd be really good in bed"
"36 is the next milestone birthday, 'cause then I can legally fuck chicks half my age."
The point we're making here is RESPECT.
Good looking or not, NO woman wants to be disrespected. You IGNORANT ASSHOLES.
W. Kamau Bell and "Totally Biased" had a great piece on this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH7b4QCPuXc
And, like some of the sloggers, some of the men featured stubbornly clung to the idea that this kind of unwanted attention is a compliment. An aggressive, aggressive compliment. Sigh.
Well it's nice to know that as a man, this is all my fault. I had always had this childish ideal that people should only be blamed for their own actions, but now I understand that as a man I am entirely responsible for the actions of my gender. I've always wondered why society aims to make me feel guilty in certain pointless situations, but it all makes sense now. The last seat on the bus is next to a woman? I had better stand, I'd hate for her to think I'm a rapist. Now I know not to bother asking a pretty girl for a dance or a drink, I'd hate to be confused for a misogyny apologist.

If you had issues dissecting the sarcasm, I'm saying your article is pointlessly and illogically divisive and inflammatory toward men, and I'm not surprised men are responding the way they are. In fact I'm guessing you planned it that way, you crafty devil. Next time, be honest, what your really fighting against is assholes acting like assholes, that's the crux of it. Assholes have been acting like assholes since the dawn of time, and feelings have been hurt, or worse. But that's not my fault. Do yourself a favor and rebrand your argument, your clearly passionate about making the world a better place for everyone, but turning every feminist agenda in to a battle of the sexes isn't gonna get anything done except maybe pissing people off on both sides of the divide.

No I will not check my privilege.
@49 The sad thing is, I can't tell if you're trolling or you really are just clueless. Try to get this through your skull: The privilege you experience as a single (shocker!) straight male does not translate to everyone else. You can take cat-calling as a compliment without fearing for your safety or feeling reduced to little more than a cum dumpster.

The vast majority of women are not afforded this privilege, and indeed you may be harrassing a woman who was sexually assaulted in the past, which can be triggering. You're choosing to double down on the "she wants it" mindset rather than consider even the possibility that your harrassment is unwanted, like a rapist but with words. Yes, they're two very different things, harrassment and assault. No matter how you cut it they're both unwanted, even if you choose to believe otherwise. You're contributing to a culture that makes women feel unsafe and that condones harrassment against women.
@68 Since you brought up the date situation, I will share why I (and potentially others) have this opinion. I'VE SEEN IT IN ACTION. Handsome guy makes crude and racy comments to the girl about her body, what he wants to do to her. There is NO body language or verbal language indicating that she does not like it.

Guess what? EVERYONE is different. Everyone likes something different, even a day, week or year down the road. The authors created a series of visually ugly characters for this story. We each have snapshots of these people in our minds. We make assumptions to fill in the missing pieces.
@70 You're the one making it into a battle of the sexes and taking it as an affront to your manhood. I read the article and had no problem whatsoever separating myself from the types of "men" who willingly harrass random women. If there's any division being created by this article, it's between feminists and those who refuse to see this kind of harrassment as problematic. Based on your butthurt attitude, I think I know which side of the debate you're on.
The article makes me feel a little cautious about being a man; the comments make me ashamed.
@71 Lol. You make me laugh, T. We should hang out for a beer or coffee and really get to know each other. Would you like that? Oh I'm sorry, my privilege made me assume you would.

Have you ever heard of the "Treat others as you would like to be treated?" No? Imagine my shock, and indeed sadness, when I learned that it doesn't extend to this particular area. I've said in previous posts that *I* like being yelled at saucily on the street, by either gender. You say I'm "doubling down" on the "she wants it". No, I want it and I don't make assumptions about what others want. I wouldn't want my privilege to cloud my judgement.


"There is NO body language or verbal language indicating that she does not like it."

There is also NO body language or verbal language indicating that she does. Maybe she's not the confrontational type and feels self-conscious about making a scene in public? Maybe she's feeling too intimidated by the aggression of the "handsome guy" that's making shockingly lewd comments about her body to speak out against it?

Your main point in your poorly-put-together arguments is that everyone is different and reacts to situations differently. Granted. However, like others have said, I have yet to run into a woman who would feel pleased and complimented by getting thrown into any of these situations against her will.

By and large, being reduced to the sum of your (body) parts isn't very empowering.
@76 Lol. I'm sorry my passive observations weren't able to be turned into a good argument. I had a feeling that if I stopped them to ask a question, they may think that I was "like a rapist but with words" probing deeply into their business.

No, this girl definitely appeared to be enjoying the interaction to me. She was touching him, laughing at his stupid jokes, playing with her hair. Sure, she may have been faking it. I didn't follow them. Like others who have posted here before me, I was taught to respect women. Not all women want to be respected all of the time. You can disagree with me, and I am sure you will.
Ah. I get it, GabrielDiesel. It's all so simple now.

Applying Occams Razor: You're an idiot.

Whew. We can return to ignoring you.
@46 Thanks for your vote of confidence. (RE: #13)

That said, I've either caught the wrong people on the wrong day a couple times or when it comes to staring off into space, I am doing it wrong.

The guy announced my confusion was an apology and that he'd therefore refrain from beating my ass, but the woman was apparently unconvinced.

There's that customer service adage that for every complain, nine people just seethe...

Again, while I agree no stranger owes me this, I'd rather be asked early on in the process, than cussed out later.
It boggles the mind that any dudes still think it's appropriate to not only allow but to defend this kind of behavior.
Sometimes people take articles like this two ways.
Despite feeling slighted by being compared to street harassers, you become enlightened and come a way with a sense how common and constant women receive unsolicited harassment on the street and to continue doing the good deed of... not doing it personally.
You can whine about how your feelings are hurt, and therefore completely negate her advice.

People don't like being compared to the boogey-man. BUT even men with good intentions have the capability of making off color and offensive remarks to a woman on the street - perhaps by picking it up from TV or the movies or other men do the same thing. The author is making a good point that it's ok to let men know it's inappropriate. In my opinion, it's also ok to brush it aside or ensure my safety first and foremost.

In any case, I'm sure you're mommy's proud of how she raised you but that whole pity-fest for how you're being compared to the boogeyman is an insult to women who get sexually harassed on a daily basis.
T is winning this thread. for anyone that's keeping track.
@78 Huh. Wow. Talk about rude.
Although you seem to be the pinata of this thread, here's something to ponder...
Perhaps your date likes that kind of talk.
Perhaps your date was being really polite and putting up with it.

I am saying this for your own good, since your ego seems a little fragile and the statements you make reflect that - you're going to run into someone who doesn't like that, and doesn't put up with it, and will punch you square in the balls... which you seem to value so highly. And not a normal person would blame her.
So, there's some advice!
This boggles my mind; I simply cannot comprehend doing any of these things, nor can I think of a single friend or colleague who might (at least certainly not around the rest of us; it would _not_ go unremarked).

I know that some commenters who feel similarly are unhappy to be told that we (men) are uniformly part of the problem; I would likewise have to contest that assertion. But I'm not going to get my nose out of joint about it—I just hope that some of you can be reassured that there really are lots of men who consider such behaviour to be just as unaceptable as you do.
When I was in high school my best friend and I drove by a construction site and had the idea to turn the tables. We hooted and hollered and called suggestive things to the men working. I'll never forget the looks of violation on their faces. It felt good to see that men can feel the same way about such abuse. But I felt so awful about being the perpetrator that I stopped abruptly. There are days I would gladly do it again, though, just to feel that release of revenge.
@77 "No, this girl definitely appeared to be enjoying the interaction to me."

With more than the amount of respect due, so what?

Some dudes totally get off on CBT, but that doesn't make the person going around assaulting guys looking for such a dude less of a problem.
@83, nothing in your body language was indicating you didn't want to be called an idiot.
@88 LOL. Is this your normal method of assessing body language? Through a text-based interface?
@87 Well there was me wondering who gets off on cognitive behavioural therapy. Turns out you learn something new every day.
I have been flabbergasted by how many women have excused men for harassing me by saying "can you blame them, you are just so beautiful" Our culture is one where women get most of their validation from how they look, I understand how it is confusing for men.
I read an article recently in which they compared the awards given to elementary school girls vs. the awards they give the boys. You can probably guess most of the girls awards are "best dressed" "nicest hair"
@73 "What men need is a wake-up call: You're the problem. If not you personally, then your best friend, a coworker, or that dude in your fantasy football league is. You're making us feel unsafe every day, in a thousand different ways."

Excuse me, maybe I was confused by how the article directly states that, "I am the problem".

And if you can't see how sneaking this completely off-topic sentence into the article changed the dynamic of what was being said, you have reading comprehension issues. I'm a heterosexual male, I haven't adopted a demeaning attitude toward women in recent memory, I don't cat-call, nor do I have friends or co-workers that do. Am I to blame for not putting a stop to behavior that I haven't influenced or condoned?

Trying to put people in a box is exactly what rape-apologists do when they make blanket statements about women 'asking for it".

You want to talk about rape-culture? this article is rape-culture, any attitude you adopt toward the problem that is more then the singular denouncement of a person's actions in rape-culture. Anytime you step out of the box and blame Miller Beer and Chris Brown for the things a rapist has done, your taking blame away from the perpetrator and trying to shoulder it off on every single person that ever laughed at a Rodney Dangerfield act, which is only trivializing and marginalizing your argument to anyone that's allergic to bullshit.

I'm not defending sexism (or trashy behavior, which is a more accurate description of what we're talking about) I'm trying to stand up for the idea that people should predicate their opinion on logic.

I am not schrodinger's rapist

By the way; Imply more.
All you crazy angry people. Here is what you seem to not understand:

If my boyfriend says I have nice boobs, it's cool. We know each other, and are not solely dating because he thinks I have nice tits. Okay, great! This is what is not cool: Someone starting a conversation with you based on a crude assessment of your body. Sure, we sexualize people all the time as human beings--it just happens naturally. The need vocalize it, however is completely different.

Yelling "nice tits!" is flat-out demeaning and devaluing. I don't walk around thinking about how my breasts are like little orbs of hundred dollar bills nor do I walk around waiting to see the perfect package on some guy at the bus stop. THAT is the problem. The problem is with the communication and lack of ability to see outside of physical features. Telling someone they have a nice smile can be great and totally brighten up your day. Conversely, telling someone that if they smiled they'd be prettier is demeaning. Maybe I'm not trying to be pretty and, you know what, that's not your issue. That's not even an issue in the first place!

I don't leave my apartment thinking about how to keep track of all the compliments I'll receive today and it's unfair to assume that it's all women think about. On that same note, I don't think it's all men think about either. There is a middle ground here, men (and that goes for women too).
@92 "I am not schrodinger's rapist"

So not only are you a non-rapist, but every woman you encounter knows you well enough to know you're not?
@75 Ugh, this is like talking to a wall. A stupid, inconsiderate, narcissistic, self-centered wall. The world does not start and stop at your convenience. You might enjoy being reduced to a body part (you are quite the ass, after all), but you're a sociopath if you think that others desire that kind of attention simply because you do.
@95 Forge it, Jake. It's Chinatown.
I'm all for maintaining your dignity in the face of harassment but I think this article is irresponsible. As a martial artist, I can tell you that elevating a situation that you are not prepared to handle is just plain stupid. There are certainly instances in the life where men are harassed or threatened with violence and in those situations meeting that violence head on and with no preparation would just be dumb. My teacher and all of the women in my school will tell you the same thing. The snarky come back makes for an entertaining article and a lively on-line debate but for the Stranger to honestly advocate this behavior is indicative of just how clueless and reliant on the patriarchy they actually are. Evaluate the situation. In a crowd of people tell an old pervert he's fat. But when push comes to shove there is absolutely no shame in simply walking on.
As a lesbian, I'm curious how some guys think a woman picks up women. "Nice tits, babe", an ass grab, or whistling like the woman you're going for is a dog is some middle school stuff anyone should hopefully have grown out of (or been sent to detention enough) to have grown out of by college. I mean, let's think about it, what do you suspect yield you better odds of landing a date: hey nice tits vs excuse me, I don't mean to seem forward, but would you mind if I bought you a drink/sat with you (bar, cafe, etc)? I mean, not every single advance is offensive, just the offensive advances.

Think of it this way, if you'd punch a man for doing/saying that to your mother, the woman is probably offended. Even if "yo moms gotta sweet ass"... AAAAYE.
What men need is a wake-up call: You're the problem.

Well it's a cute idea, that men are some sort of collective entity. it might make your world view a little easier to muster, and your journalistic endeavor the same. but it's also infantile, tired, and points more to your own problem.

I'm all for calling bullshit, so I do agree with you on that OP.
@99 If you're not a part of the solution, you ARE a part of the problem. Apathy is a problem, and your apathy (along with many who have expressed similar opinions) is just as damaging as the behavior you're shrugging off as the OP's "own problem". If every straight person were apathetic about gay rights and marriage equality, and every white person was apathetic about discrimination, we would still have segregated seating areas for black and white people, and no gay person would be able to get married anywhere. This is a social issue that is EVERYONE'S responsibility. So suck it up, or look in the mirror and recite the whole "sad trap door spider" thing.
#100 I didn't shrug off her problem, I agreed with her that she'all should call out bullshit. Did you not read that part? That was nearly the complete gist of the article. I questioned whether men were the problem, I contend that assholes are the problem. They run amok. Men have nothing to do with it.

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