..and sometimes I'm that asshole, but thankfully the women in my life are the women in my life. And that influence far outshines any nugget among the tripe I may fine here.

I'm mostly with 93. My near-husband and I met and became friends. We had a lot of fun together and he talked to me like a person first. I was the one who told him I liked him. I was the one who instructed him to remove his pants when we were making out the first time we had sex.

Now we're engaged, he regularly objectifies me during sex and checks me out while I'm getting dressed and I put my tits in his face sometimes just for fun, when we're just sitting around. And it is awesome.

Except for maybe a drunken one-night stand: YOU CANNOT SKIP AHEAD. To get to the primordial lizard brain pleasure, one must first engage their frontal lobe with a desired mate (and not just do it in order to get to the sex because it is so goddamn obvious and such a turn off). Women like this, and SO DO MEN, but a lot of them don't know it because they are so often preoccupied with the end result. It is pathetic.

Also, what do these jerks get out of it, when they harass a woman? Just the thrill of knowing they've pissed off a woman they don't have respect for? Consistently reminding us that our bodies and beauty are super important and worth bringing up out of nowhere when we just want to be walking around, breathing, living, getting shit done?

What do women want? Unless you're old-fashioned, and do the whole wining/dining/3rd date = sex thing, they mostly want to be treated like a friend. You know, like someone you care for? And if they like you, they'll fuck you, and it might turn into something awesome (it might not), and yelling at any hot woman is just a waste of everyone's time and energy. It also makes them look like entitled pricks, even though most of them do not understand how, which makes them even more clueless and entitled, which is so not sexy.

And it isn't helpful to say "men are the problem," because that is overreaching and, as illustrated, causes a lot of unpleasant reactions.

It's a general problem that we all have; women are often all too happy to play the cute accessory that a worthy man obtains. They are unaware of the damage they're doing to the rest of us women, who want real lives with work and accomplishment and shit.

We people make me sick!

Men are usually larger than women. When someone larger and stronger than you yells things that might be construed as his willingness to rape you, its scary. Not all men do this and not all men have friends that do. So, dude out there that doesn't do it and neither do your friends, you are in the clear.

Guys don't understand why women dress the way that they do. Women dress to impress each other. Sometimes it's to get reactions from men, but the average girl walking down the street wants the approval of the girls that she likes. So when some guy yells something about her ass, she thinks, "Who asked you? I didn't want your opinion." Because she didn't.

The gripe that I have is that the guys that I work with talk about the women that they see. They think that it's perfectly ok to talk about the women's bodies as if the woman can't hear them. And maybe sometimes they can't hear what the guys are saying, but if they did, would they say anything? No, definitely not.

This situation is less threatening than say... encountering someone in the street. But all women still think about the outside possibility that she could still get raped walking back to her car.

Mtnlion: I wanted to ask, what does a women who is all too happy to play the cute accessory for a worthy man have to do with sexual harassment? Do you know anyone that fits the cute accessory type?

Okay, I'm on board with stopping street harassment, and I don't mind that it's the feminist cause du jour. But it's starting to get to me that the recent rash of articles about street harassment focuses on unsolicited "compliments", wolf-whistling, etc., whereas the type of street harassment I experience usually takes the form of people pointing out to me or implying that I am ugly. Yes, yes, I understand that the "positive" kind of harassment is actually demeaning and objectifying. But really, am I the only woman who gets unsolicited negative comments from strangers? To hear the internet talk about it, I would think so.

@106, I do. Not very many, because I tend to not engage with very many of those women because frankly they're usually a little boring.

Those women get a lot of attention, and they enjoy it. They also tend to be a bit dumb, because they funnel most energy into their looks because it is easier and because they've been socialized to believe their hotness is the most important thing a woman can offer. What is the use of being smart and interesting if being hot is going to get you the best man anyway? They then go on to socialize their daughters, and other girls around them, that hotness is the #1 most important thing for a woman to have.

This perpetuates the myth that all women enjoy sexual attention.
As long as you have women who act like they love being objectified, you will have men who find it acceptable to vocally objectify women. It's like the asshole who keeps calling women "bitches." It hurts the reputation of men in general, even though an intelligent person knows that all people are individuals regardless of gender. But most people are not that intelligent.

I mean, the entire thing is about sexism, and women who embrace sexist ideals for the ease of conformity really do make it worse for us all(same with men). That's the problem with everything.

@108, good point! And that sucks. Fuck 'em all.

Can we just agree that no person wants any goddamn comments on their looks at random, positive or negative? Approach them about something else, like the dumb weather or traffic or some book they're reading or some shit. Really.

BRAVO, Cienna (WHY aren't you also David's full-time on-call sub for Last Days, yet??), Anna, Mary, Emily, and Brittany--GREAT illustrations!! Where can I get prints?
This is so spot on!!

As a guy, i have never understood why others of us need to cat call ladies walking by. It makes no sense. It isn't like some woman is suddenly going to say "hey, that sweaty neanderthal just told me in public what a fine ass I have. I got to know this dude!" I worked construction in my early teens. I think maybe they do it to show off to their pals that they are "manly men" by saying crap that makes them feel less like wastes of life.

I meant early twenties. DOH!

I got to admit as a guy my first reaction to "it's all men's fault" its to throw up my hands and shout "NO IT'S NOT!!! I'M A GOOD GUY, DON'T JUDGE US ALL TOGETHER". Then I ask my wife about street harassment and she tells me how she's getting a lot of random guys talking to her now that's it's warm outside and getting some rude comments. And I remember the times in University where I'd be in the bar with female friends and random guys would think it's ok to slap them on the ass. I've had homeless/drug addicts scream at me in Seattle and had a couple of scary situations. I can't imagine how it must be for women to have be harassed day in and day out by men. So all the guys on here who's claiming it's no big deal, go talk to your gf/sister/close female friends about it and maybe it will change your mind. Anyways sorry guys are such creeps.

(Although the piece of advice about lying to cops isn't good, they'll charge you for that).

When I first moved to Seattle in 1990, I rode a bus from downtown Seattle up to Everett. Some fat ass-clown kept staring and staring at me and then leaned over and said, "You sure would be cute if you'd just smile!" I ignored him but he wouldn't shut up. His next brilliant comment? "Sweetie, you look so sad! I bet if you'd just give me a smile, you'd feel so much better!" I had just come from a therapy session in Fremont dealing with my abusive girlfriend and was in no mood for this fat prick. The bus driver wouldn't do anything (typical of Seattle bus drivers) and so I finally yelled at the a-hole, "Shut yer stupid trap, you fat, fucking asshole! I don't exist for your pleasure!" and for that I got kicked off the bus.

@79 "Again, while I agree no stranger owes me this, I'd rather be asked early on in the process, than cussed out later."

Hey, that makes perfect sense based on the experiences you've described.

Great, this morning at 6:00 my partner got harassed and humiliated by a fucking badge-out MICROSOFT EMPLOYEE on the bus. I'm used to drifters who have zero interest in their character being maligned, but this guy was a total shitheel with something to lose, he just didn't give a fuck, talking about his dick and fucking on a crowded bus with nowhere else to go.

@121: Yawn. Looks have very little to do with the problem of street harassment. Conventionally "ugly" people or ladies who dress down get hollabacked daily.

Harassment is about power, but nice of you to blame someone for looking nice while you're trying to "protect" persons.

It's actually really easy to "explain to men what it feels like to be harassed by a stranger who is invariably larger and stronger than us", since most boys have been victimized by bullies many times.

@123: It's really not.

Bullied become bullies with a regularity. If they could see that versus taking glee in becoming the "empowered" and using it to hurt others, we wouldn't need to explain this in the first goddamned place.

I'm not dismissive of the Street Harrassment issue - but it's galling that (Cienna in particular) seem to believe that men live in some universe where they are free from the threat of constant violence, of being belittled/humiliated, and all the other negative consequences. Everyone shares in this, unless you live a middle-class american (or higher) lifestyle, you're under the threat of violence every single day.

@124 engles, por favor.

er, it's not easy to explain to a man what it's like to harassed by someone bigger and stronger because.... why now? why is it not easy to explain? Because the bullied become bullies? That doesn't follow.

@125: Men are not with the same frequency and context sexually harassed every day, and it's still primarily men who are harassing men AND women, so your analogy demanding/suggesting some sort of innate male sympathy is horribly broken and nonsensical.

I'm sure someone was mean to a guy who harasses women in public once. People perpetuate cycles of violence and abuse with a regularity. They have to actually give a shit about people around them (and themselves) to opt-out.

Pointing any of this out to them is not going to suddenly make how much of an asshole they are click in their head.

@126: Because they don't care. They're in charge. They're the big boy. Fuck you, nerd! Fuck you, bitch who won't talk to me on the bus!

@111, First, I actually talked to SPD about this, and second, that's why we advocate calling the nonemergency hotline. It won't clog up 911 but it your call still gets broadcast to all available units in the area.

It's a practice I started when I was growing up in Idaho. At first, I only called to report suspected drunk drivers (because there are a TON) but it expanded into people who drive their cars up onto sidewalks to get my attention when I'm running, for example.

And yeah, it makes me feel better, regardless or whether or not those assholes get stopped.

There is an American Apparel advertisement adjacent to this article. Do you guys really need to do that to stay afloat? Not advertising them would further cement your arguments in this theater. Think about it.

@130: Because they're scantily clad therefore discussing hollabacks is somehow "hypocritical" or because the owner is a douchecanoe?

Ok guys, I’m going to out and say it.

Seattle has lugged itself out of the lugubrious rut and summer’s bloom is putting weird shit on an aggressive upward swing. I wrote the below in reaction to the “The Work Lurker” example of harassment in the above article:

“You’ve done it again. Good job, ‘The Stranger’. The shotgun approach prevails again. Aim wherever you want because everything is WEIRD and you’re going to talk about it because you’re CONSCIOUS individuals and others need to be made AWARE! I must remember that investing hope in institutions I have no hand in is a useless venture.

First off, this is a terrible article. Your trap-door spider analogy is cheap at best and only serves to indicate your uncreative and desperate approach to analyzing and raising awareness of street harassment. As for the rest, it’s based on your initial idea, so it’s fucked. I don’t want to cheapen your experiences, but come on! The Stranger is much better than this, especially on collaborative articles! This one is inarticulate, defensive, and loud. Brings to mind the behaviors of many horrible ideologues. You’ve really scrounged for a pedestal on which to mount your women-selves in the light of entrenched male stereotypes and patriarchal assumptions. Gah, I just don’t want to go into it, but I have to now! You say “What men need is a wake-up call: You’re the problem. If not you personally, then [someone else who is male].”
You make a grand-generalization about a single gender and narrow it down with dimensionless language. It isn’t men, it isn’t women, it’s people relying on their assumptions and their fears as they’ve been shaped by history, society, yada yada that thing. What the fuck guys. You’re inciting reactionary responses instead of talking about conduits and being a player in unfucking the messes at hand.”

When I wrote the above I realized that I over-reacted and was defending my own experiences, because I have been accused of violations in some of the flavors in that article by just being male (and probably because I do throw around some salacious insouciance). “She was asking for it, he was trying to give it" argument rears its well-fed head (remember, the “asking” party must have an “answering” one for the analogy to work). So it’s too bad, this battle of the sexes that is maintained with casual stricture and fear mechanisms continually sullied by, of course, hegemony.

I wish you guys wouldn’t use such strong, reactionary language; it typically serves to incite a defensive ego-laden response in the form of reinforced behavior. That being said, I’m sorry so many women have such terrifying and demeaning experiences in this smart progressive city. Fuck those shitheads who ruin it for everyone else, everyone else being those who want to tell others that they appreciate their beauty but don’t out of fear of explosive conflict and confused intentions.

Anyway, I’ve written myself dry and I need to fill my well. Seattle women, you're beautiful!

@undead well, it's a lovely selection of straw man arguments you've constructed there.

I have colored hair. The other day walking to lunch someone looked up from their stolen bottle of liquor and yelled in my face, "what a fucking faggot look" so I yelled back "sit on a fucking tack" and he "dared me" to say it to his face while he was falling over. I'm not sure what to have done about the situation, but something tells me I should have let safeway security know and called the non-emergency line, that would have been justice.

Here's something you can say in all situations. As loudly as you need to be for others around to hear, say "your girlfriend said you gave her syphilis! You really are disgusting!" Then walk away.

The folks complaining that it isn't attractive guys shown as the harassers seem to forget the fact that even the most objectively attractive person becomes less interesting than horse shit the instant they feel that it is somehow their right to advance upon others who are just trying to go about their days.

I think one major thing that is getting overlooked in this article and the subsequent 'discussion' is that what most of the meatheads that engage in these sort of activities like best is to get some sort of reaction out of their targets. Hence even barking and growling (or threatening castration even) would most likely have the opposite to the desired effect and probably the very best route to diminishing street harassment is to perfect the ability to completely ignore it.

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems likely that even the most indefatigable knuckledragger would eventually get bored after the 5th or 6th 'complement' that he bestowed got no response whatsoever.

@38: I'm not weak, and you acting like a jackass on the street toward other people compliments no one.

Obviously street harrassment is a huge problem, because you can't complain about it without a bunch of trolls coming out to try to make weird excuses for it.

Addressing the most common excuses --

1. Unless you have Tourette's Syndrome or something, you can stop yourself from talking about the body parts of strangers. Seriously. And if you literally cannot stop yourself from shouting out things like "nice ass!" at people you don't know, maybe you should go the doctor and get yourself checked out for some kind of neurological disorder.

2. Even if you, personally, wouldn't hate the experience of walking down the street and being told by a stranger that you have a "nice ass," and because of that you are genuinely surprised to discover that other people hate it, you have been duly informed that most people, including 99.9% of all women, do hate it. The appropriate response is to make note and move on, hopefully as a better informed individual. Maybe you were in the habit of telling strangers they had nice asses, out of ignorance that it is usually considered rude. Now you know. If you still find yourself unable to avoid it, see #1.

3. But #2 is bullshit anyway, because I'm pretty sure that 99.9% of all street harrassers know full well their attention is unwelcome and they're doing it to shame, belittle, and intimidate the women they're doing it to. They are not doing it to get a date. They are not doing it to strike up a conversation. They are not doing it because they are trying to be nice, but confused about what acting nice would look like. They are doing it to prove who has the power.

@124: Bullied become bullies with a regularity. If they could see that versus taking glee in becoming the "empowered" and using it to hurt others

Severe irony alert! Showers of condescension and backpedaling expected.

The litmus test really should be enough. Treat people with respect, and try to improve the dialogue. Until I saw how my wife was treated though, I was a little clueless about how creepy guys can act.

On the other hand, the staring happens to everyone - male and female. I get stared at, and I drift off and stare into the distance. You might ask the guy if he's staring before gouging his eyes out. Excessive staring is not going to be a defense in court.

@70: If you are upset at being lumped in with assholes, then you need to do better to differentiate yourself from the assholes by doing something other than attacking the people calling assholes out for what they are. Except you're not going to do that, because you're not upset that there are asshole men out there who treat women like dirt; you're upset that they're getting called out on it.

No tiny violin for you.

@92: Wow, less than 100 posts before a mansplaination about what rape-culture is and isn't.

Hey, straight men. Imagine that any time you go out, gangs of drunken, obnoxious gay men are hooting and hollering about your tight ass, following you down the street, and telling you to smile with your pretty little mouth. Every day. Wherever you go.

If a gay man reaches over and pinches your nipple when he walks by, that's just a validation of how sexy you are. You should enjoy it!

You'll quickly realize that it's not a compliment, and it's not welcomed. So stop doing it and stop acting like it's not a big deal. It's NEVER okay.

@134: I'm glad you've solved the problem, then.

Except for your idea being completely divorced from reality and any possible attempt to treat the symptoms let along cure the societal illness.

To entertain the thought, say that sexual harassers and people who shout "NICE TITS" on the street were bullied.

1) What would you say to them?
2) How do you expect them to take it?
3) How do you expect what you say to be digested and applied as right-action by the perps, changing their behavior for the better?

@143: What the fuck are you babbling about? Sexual harassers are bullies. Telling them they're bad people and should feel bad is not bullying, because they hurt and threaten people.

If you think calling out sexual harassers is bullying you are also likely a shitty person.

@142, I never thought about the possibility that a lout yelling "nice ass!" might have Tourette's. Now I might yell back, "I'm so sorry you have Tourette's". It's less likely to get me thrown off a bus than yelling, "Sorry about your micro penis".

That would definitely be a nice oblique response.

@145 so I'm supposed to put myself out for the same people willing to write me off without a second thought? According to the article the only way I could remain blameless is to have been born a woman. I would understand if you don't recognize the inherent double standard, seeing as your post employs a similar catch 22 regarding the status of my conscience ( which remains clear, nice try)

If my friend came to me and asked me to "speak to someone" who harassed her, I'd do it in a heart beat. If you really care so much about the whole of the human race perhaps take the time you'll spend responding to this post and volunteer at a battered women's shelter? No body has any need for another piece meal bleeding heart, unless she can put her money where her mouth is.

@153: Oh I love that!
So many good comments here from both men an women. It does my heart good to see it. I get so tired sometimes fighting these fights on Slog, (which reminds me-where is The Misanthrope? He loves street harassment) and it's cheering to see the good out weight the bad here and on the two Lindy/Rape joke threads on Slog.
Ya'll rock.

@155: "According to the article the only way I could remain blameless is to have been born a woman."

You could simply not be an asshole.

@155: why don't you put your money where your mouth is and support a battered women's shelter? If you live in the Seattle area Slog commenter Fnarf can hook you up. If you are a decent human being then you have no need to be offended by this post, because it isn't about you.

Sooooooo why so hopped up to defend the douche canoe's who are the topic at hand?

@157: Honest to god I heart you Undead Ayn Rand.

Yeah, I agree, what Numbers 1 through 160 said. You got it right. Fuck 'em if they can't handle the truth!!!

@160: My heart to yours!

hehehehee. I love to do the insane act on them too!

What a lot of these idiots don't understand is, from the time many of us women were about 12 we have been having to hear this crap all the time, multiple times a day every single day, that we are outside and do not have a parent, brother, boyfriend or husband right by our side.

Every.goddamned.day! Several.times.a.day! From strangers! And I was not ever drop dead gorgeous, merely cute. I did not have big ta-tas. I have rarely worn make up as I can't stand it, I have never worn lowcut tops, tight pants skirts or short shorts, short anything, just not my thing. I was slender, tall, and a tomboy.

And no man, who I does not even know me, no matter how handsome, rich, or whatevah, gets anywhere with me with that kind of talk. I like what was said somewhere in the commments (or the aritcle?) If you would not say it to your Mom, niece, or daughter, then it is rude, crude, and unwanted by any girl or woman with any self respect.

I am now 56 years old, and THANK Heavens do not get that crap so often. I get ignored by strange men, YAY!

@152, I'm not saying calling out street harassment is bullying. Street harassment is awful. Too many women have to deal with it, including the women in my life, and I really hate that.

I would never do it. Nobody I know would ever do it, and if they did, I would call them out. Because I don't like bullies.

But there is a little bit of bullying going on here. Saying to all men: "You're the problem. If not you personally, then your best friend, a coworker, or that dude in your fantasy football league is" is bullshit. It's using the bully pulpit of "Seattle's Only Newspaper" to paint all men as sexual harassers. That's like saying all Muslims are responsible for the actions of some Muslims, or all black people are responsible for the actions of some black people.

But it's clear that you don't care about fairness when it's not your tribe being painted with a broad brush. You are angry and you want to hurt somebody. Bully behavior.

Unfortunately, the people with whom you are angry don't read Slog and/or the Stranger, by and large. They probably don't read much at all. So the heterosexual male readership is faced with these choices: Accept all men are responsible for street harassment, remain silent, or speak up for all of the good men out there. Do you think any of those exist?

I'm sorry your partner got harassed. Not on behalf of all men ( I was never elected spokesman), but because I am a compassionate person who doesn't like people being treated unfairly.

We women should all just learn to fart, loudly, on cue.

That way we can disgust our harassers and bust the myth that women don't function biologically as humans, all at the same time!

Fuckin' hell this shit is tiring.

Honest to god, I've never heard anyone say "nice tits" to anyone else on the street. Or anything like that. But I promise that if I ever hear that or something like it, I will say "shut your fucking mouth!" immediately. Guys, as horny little bags of testosterone, have a responsibility to be EXTRA polite and respectful to make up for the fact that we're basically walking around always aroused.

But I am a former offensive linesman, so the personal danger for me to stick my neck out is basically nil.

@166: Indeed, indeed....

@165: If nobody you know does this, then why are you having a pity party for yourself?

The guilt that's eating you up isn't coming from outside.

Seriously, lashing out at women because they're mad about a real, tangible problem makes you look like human garbage whether you yourself are a harasser or not.

Look within. There is something very wrong with you.

@170, I'm not "lashing out" at anybody, unless you think a reasonable call for fair language is "lashing out". Or is it a "pity party"? You have more hateful putdowns to lob my way, no doubt.

I'm quite happy with my identity, thanks. If I was burdened by a lot of guilt for being born with a penis, I'd probably just accept the abuse.

Judging from the tone of your posts in this forum, you are not a very happy person. Good luck with overcoming that.

Unfortunately, I “know” one of the authors of this article (Mary Traverse).

Nothing personal, but the only person who would harass Mary’s deceitful, slovenly, egocentric, and unattractive ass would be BLIND!

Moreover, people who “know” Mary would find this article more credible if her name was not attached to it…

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."
Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

@171: Whining because women make you feel bad when they get mad that guys are assholes indicates that you really have no clue why the women are mad.

Either

1) You're sexually harassing women and this targets you

2) You need to shut up more because this doesn't concern you and being mad at women is a sign that there's something else broken in your head.

@172 I don't "know" you, but judging from that comment, you are a terrible person.

@172: Sure. You know Mary the same way you know Churchill. Do they talk to you through the hum of the air conditioner or is by secret signal at the stoplight ? But hey! Thanks for joining Slog! You should be a lot of fun.

@171: There have been a number of men on this thread who have, like you, identified as good men who are horrified by this sort of thing. But unlike you they realize that because they are good men that this post is not aimed at them personally. It's not about you, and if you would like women to stop being angry then help to stop other men, and there are so many, from making your gender look bad.
Don't yell at us. Yell at them.

@173, Now you're accusing me of sexually harassing women. Awesome.

I'm not "whining." Not really my nature. It obvious that you can read what I'm typing, but it's not clear that you have the ability to comprehend it.

I'm a man. This article says all men are complicit in street harassment, and that concerns me. As an article about gender relations, it should concern everybody, really.

Look, it's as simple as this: If you demand fair treatment, you must supply it. It's not a difficult concept for people who aren't blinded by hatred.

Oh Lissa, I know that street harassment isn't about me personally, or any man I know personally.

That's what I have been saying. And who is yelling?

Anyway, the illustrations are clever and cathartic. It's nice to make fun of the dimwits who actually do this.

I just don't think that it is fair to lay the responsibility with all men. Good morning.

I'm not registered or much of a commentator but here goes:

I have four daughters. The oldest just turned 12 and started getting uh... chesty ... last year. She is already having to put up with this kind of shit. Personally, being a guy, I advised her if someone grabs your brests to let them. It will not kill you and gives you the opportunity to attack them in a seriously damaging way. After she beat the crap (as in missed a few days of school, extensivbe bruising and swollen testicles) out of two different high schoolers on the bus, the harassment has let off. The school administration or private bus company did not comment.

Let's face it, the responses in this article are mild and kind. Assault is assault. Any straight man who got gropped or sexually harrased by another man would feel entitled to hit first and then ask questions and guess what! If it were an 11 year old boy being treated this way by 14 or 16 year old boys the ll year old would be praised and applauded for bashing his abusers. It is high time women are finally given the same respect that men take for granted.

What's really too bad about all of this is the fact that this discussion exists only as a binary: you're with us or you're with the rapists. Agree completely or you're an apologist.

How's this for one: I'm a man. I don't and never have made comments like this. My girlfriend has been aggressively groped on several occassions (including once when someone pushed their finger into her vagina in a nightclub), and when she told me about it each time I wept for her violation and my own powerlessness I felt to do anything about it. My mother is a rape survivor. I also spent a lot of time talking with my female cousin about how to deal with verbal harassment at her work. I was also raped as a child, by an adult man who was much bigger and stronger than me, and he did it many times.

Here's a reflection for all of you on the discussion that is going down here: there's no room for my voice, as a man and a survivor and a supporter - but one who doesn't necessarily agree with the majority here - amidst all the self-righteous shouting. There's no room for it in the discussion. And there wasn't much room for it in the article.

The voices of many others trying to raise some middle ground point - like kitchnsync, sumofsea, and northbynorthwest, to name a few - are shut down here. And maybe it's just. They are men. They are the big and strong. Maybe it's time they get taken down a notch. But it's a shame the only way any of you can think of to make it happen is a bunch of name calling.

The irony is that what the article nearly succeeds in doing is in being almost as crass and vulgar as the catcalls themselves. I'm sure that's how the authors want to come off - to prove a point, hold a mirror, make a noise, and all of that. They succeeded.

But they could have done a lot more.

I am a man. I do not harass women - or anyone else. Neither do any of my friends or co-workers. At least not intentionally. I strive to be respectful and considerate in all my interactions with others. Of course I'm not always successful; I'm not always my best self. But I get lots of opportunities because I have a lot of interactions with others.

It is an effort. It is an effort to be considerate. It's usually not a big effort, but it is more than zero.

I do engage strangers I meet on the street, on the public transit, and in a variety of public accommodations. Because I do so in a respectful way and I pay attention to the feedback I get, it generally goes well. I recognize that, as a man, any effort to have contact with women who don't know me is suspect. That's part of the deal. I know that my very presence is threatening to some women and I try to be considerate of that.

Sometimes I will cross the street so that I'm not walking directly behind a woman walking alone. Sometimes I don't because it isn't warranted. Sometimes I will take that seat on the bus next to a woman, sometimes I won't. It depends on a number of non-verbal communications.

That's what kitschnsync doesn't see. Yes, YOU are a harasser. This is about you personally. Because you are a man you are suspect and your very presence is threatening to some women - at least until you can indicate to them that you are non-threatening. And, despite all of your efforts, you may not be able to do that.

That doesn't BLAME you. It doesn't mean that you've done anything wrong or should feel any guilt. It's just the way it is. It's not about you. You may well be perfectly innocent of the egregious behaviors depicted here. Does this make you the victim of sexism or unfairness? Go ahead and see it that way if you want to. Whatever. That wouldn't make you special. Whether it makes you a victim or not, so long as you acknowledge that you are suspect and that you take that fact into consideration in your interactions with women, you'll have advanced a step. If you feel aggrieved by this that's fine. Later you will learn not to blame the women for that, and later still you may even learn not to feel aggrieved.

I don't feel aggrieved by it. I don't accept any guilt for the actions of others. I do, however, recognize the reality The reality is that I look a lot like the people who have done these things to these women. It's understandable that they are suspicious of me - they haven't accused me or found me guilty but they are wary. That's the reality - I don't blame them for it and I'm not to blame for it, but there it is. Given that reality a considerate man would take steps to signal that he is non-threatening and would acknowledge that he remains a threat until he does.

You don't want to hear this, but YOU, yes you personally, are a harasser because as a man you are suspect (thanks to a long history of actual behavior by a large number of other men) and your very presence is threatening and creates pressure until you either go away or demonstrate that you are not a threat. No need to feel one way or another about it, just acknowledge it and act responsibly and with consideration. If you refuse, then you are either refusing to acknowledge a truth or refusing to be considerate, which you are free to do, but don't pretend otherwise. Don't pretend that aren't denying a truth. Don't pretend that you aren't being inconsiderate or threatening. And quit whining about it.

an alternate headline: The white middle class is complete garbage.

try any of that crap on a girl from the hood and find out what happens.

@181: I think 182 breaks it down pretty well.
For you and others, let me put it to you this way. You are like NALT Christians. Remember what Dan said to them when they wrote that he was unfairly tarring them with the same brush when he took bigoted Christians to task for their homophobia and ill treatment of gays? Same sort of thing. Other men are making you look bad. You need to do something about that, rather than complain to women that you are being treated unfairly when women get angry about it.
When you see a douche comment on line, don't just roll your eyes. Say something. Like to that guy up thread going on and on about how he loves it when some one yells nice ass at him so why don't the ladies? Tell guys like that they are out of line. Don't let them take you silence for support.

There are other good men on this thread and in real life who get it. Be active rather than passive and remember that while women know that men are Not All Like That (NALT) that enough of you are that it's a problem and a problem you need to address if you want to stop being lumped in with the assholes.

So does this mean the socialist utopia is cancelled? Or is it arriving sooner than expected? I'm nearing 60 and like all men everywhere I sought the approbation of women when I was younger. Now everyone looks weird, men and women alike, and sex isn't isn't the imperative it once was when you actually consider who your partners will be. Last week, when the sun was shining and it seemed like summer was here, I did just feel like shouting "hey there!" and "watch out!" as I was driving around and it was mostly women that triggered these reactions. Hormones or something. Those feelings will (hopefully) always be a part of the human experience. It's class divisions, materialism and the status scramble that pervert our animus and turn us against each other, male and female. When will people change? See the first two sentences of this screed and wonder at the human condition.

@181: "Here's a reflection for all of you on the discussion that is going down here: there's no room for my voice, as a man and a survivor and a supporter - but one who doesn't necessarily agree with the majority here - amidst all the self-righteous shouting. There's no room for it in the discussion. And there wasn't much room for it in the article."

You're here to support women you know and don't know, not try to make an original claim based on your lack of direct experience.

Do you have something unique to offer and somehow contradict womens' experience, or are you just trying desperately to receive negative attention for your dudepinions (ala kitschnsync) ?

And seriously, try to not be so self-righteous when you're decrying the self-righteousness of others. You don't wear it well with your badge of persecution.

dear undead ayn rand, YAY!

I think what is creating a bit of a divide here is that I'm guessing most male SLOG readers (aside from the occasional troll) are probably not the sorts of dudes who do this, and likely don't hang w/ these dudes either. So they may feel the brush is overly broad.

Like others, I've never done this, have no friends who have ever done this in my presence, and would not tolerate it if they did. I have however had the experience of being with women while it is done, and it creates some real weird feelings and expectations. I've had my ass kicked by 3 rednecks because the girl I was with decided she needed to 'hollerback'. But i always feel like I ought to beat the shit out of dudes who yell at women around me, to be protective...which is both ridiculous and kinda sexist in it's own way. I guess the big question is (seriously), what can we do to help that doesn't make the situation worse, escalate into physical violence, or read as paternalistic or sexist?

@189: "So they may feel the brush is overly broad."

Then they should post in a different topic that caters better to them being the true victims in this matter.

"what can we do to help that doesn't make the situation worse, escalate into physical violence, or read as paternalistic or sexist"

In my case, I'm having my partner take note of the guy's badge id and snap a picture of him so I can call my LCA buds and tell them what he's doing to their image when he talks about his penis and her tits on a standing-only bus where he knows the girl can't get away easily.

When I was younger working at Safeway in Capitol Hill, I had my boob grabbed by an older male customer. He had visited the store many times and always smiled at me, and I smiled back. Then on the 4-5 time, he grabbed me. It hurt so bad for days, and I felt a fear and shame... all I could do was run in the back. When I finally told my (male) supervisor, he blew it off. The guy kept coming back and I had to hide in the back to avoid him. Finally a more senior supervisor figured out what was going on and told him he was banned from the store. Now being older, I wished I had immediately called the police. Or I should have filed a complaint against my supervisor. But when I was young, I felt instead shame and a sense that I had provoked him. Now I tell my daughter that no person has a right to touch her ever if she doesn't give them permission. No one should ever have to feel ashamed of another persons illegal behavior. And that was just one incident. Things like that happened to me all the time. It was one reason I stopped using public transportation as soon as I could afford a car. Women should not have to just "deal" with harassment in any form. I am sad and anger at some of the defensive posts on this thread. Some of you men might be "better than this", but unfortunately many are not. Even if a man would never engage in this behavior, he may still allow it, like my supervisor, which is just as bad. Moms and dads out there, it is our job to teach our sons better.

To those who think ordinary or unattractive women don't get harassed, too, you're full of shit. I'm 53. I'm nothing special to look at. I usually am wearing khakis and a polo shirt. I don't have mega boobs or a nice ass (I don't have ANY ass to speak of, actually). Yet I've been catcalled, harassed, had crude comments made about my appearance, been told to smile, followed, stalked, etc., all my fucking life. I don't get it as much as when I was younger, but I think what always made me a target is simply being small and thus, to the eye of the predatory harasser, prey.

Harassment is fucking scary. Unsolicited and unwanted compliments are fucking scary. Just ... don't. Stop it. You're past age 2, you should have some control over whether every thought that comes into your head comes out of your mouth. Guys screaming curses at you and following you on the street because you wouldn't talk to them on the bus are fucking SCARY. And it happens ALL THE TIME. It's enough to make me buy a goddamned Taser.

@108, there was one particular street screamer that I never figured out whether he was trying to compliment me or insult me. He was looking at my hair, and screeched, "RED on the HEAD like the DICK on my DAWG!" It was frightening - loud, random, and unsolicited - but I still busted out laughing about a block later, once he quit following me. WTF?!

I've come to a realization that one of the few times heterosexual men ever truly understand the experience of street harassment and the fear it can induce... is if they end up in prison.

Oh Lissa, I know that street harassment isn't about me personally, or any man I know personally.

That's what I have been saying. And who is yelling?

Huh. That's weird. ICYMI, I suppose.

@197: I agree with some of this and my close associates are directly employed to disempower/defund the more harmful elements mentioned therein) but not all is as unhealthy as the other.

That's a complicated enough topic that it's best for another thread, though.

I have a gay friend who used to come over and hit on my husband "jokingly." At first my husband laughed it off, but then he started seeming visibly uncomfortable, so I told my friend bluntly to knock it off and later had a private conversation with him about it, and he stopped.

My husband has a friend who occasionally comes over and makes sexual comments directed at me. My husband (who would never say that shit to women himself) has never said a thing to him about it. Though this guy is merely an annoyance, I do wish my husband would tell him to knock it off.

And when I'm on the bus obviously being sexually harassed by some guy I wish that all these liberal, so-called progressive dudes like the kind #189 describes would fucking stop looking down uncomfortably at their hands and instead help back me up. Most of the time it's just me yelling back at someone who felt I was unintimidating to begin with, so nothing changes and shit just escalates.

I got my nose broken trying to break up someone else's bus fight a few year ago, so I do that stuff for other people. I don't know why guys don't seem to want to help when they see this kind of thing going on. But I think that was more Cienna's point then "All men are horrible" which is what many of the commenters seem to want to take away from it.

Some ANGRY dudes up in this piece.

Hey guys, here's an idea: just give up on women entirely. See? Problem solved. ;-)

"But even those men aren’t afraid of letting a woman know they’re interested. They have no problem requesting phone numbers or purchasing beverages or, when the time calls for it, throwing fisticuffs if it means gaining the attention of that one woman who caught their eye. While some of it may be unnecessary, no one can honestly call them bashful."

- from an article by a woman about men in Seattle - decrying their lack of aggressiveness.