Features Nov 5, 2014 at 4:00 am

Yes, they should. Duggar boys, too. And so should you.

While I was waiting to get my hair cut.

Comments

103
"As we are not yet ruled by Dominionists, Twitchy, even those of us who disagree with the Duggar agenda—those of us who are annoyed by the way their lifestyle is being shoved down our throats—are free to comment."







To this I will respond, without any intended insult, that television is shoving a lot of lifestyles down our throat nowadays.
104
@97- You seemed to have missed the part where the Duggars appeared on the cover of a magazine inviting everyone in the world to talk about their sex life. I don't know how you missed it since it's right at the top of the page we're posting on right now.

If you don't want people commenting on the way you live your life, don't go into the national media telling people how you live AND insisting everyone else should live like you.
105
@102. Darn Straight. On point. We don't let people marry off their daughters at 10 and 12 because of their religion.
106
this Duggar Family photo just says it all



http://cdn.newadnetwork.com/sites/prod/f…
107
This type of traditional "Duggar" thinking is what got human kind overpopulated and in the global mess we are in.

This isn't really true at all. The population spike is because health care and standard of living advances had a century+ head start on effective birth control. In every society where wealth and health care show up--including conservative religious ones--birth rates go down. Duggar-types are always and everywhere outliers.
108
Great article!
109
IMO Michelle is a hypocrite and a fraud. Why? She claims to be following and exemplifying on TV a doctrine of compulsory and frequent motherhood. However, with the exception of any child who's still in an infant stage, beyond pushing them out of her uterus, she is definitely NOT fulfilling the role of mother of the other children, since she's spread the burden of childrearing among her eldest daughters. Oh, joy. Imagine the responsibility of motherhood years before you're permitted to get married. And get to do it for realz.

I feel such sadness for children whose lives are filled with chores and expectations beyond their years. Where's the innocence, education ... or playtime?

There's something so repulsive about people who glorify ignorance having sex. We've commented before in Dan's columns of how vital and exciting it is to gauge a partner's sexual response and to raise it to ever greater heights. But, if you're a Duggar-style woman, you're already indoctrinated to never expect any specific pleasure ... unless it's a fleeting and random occurrence. But, woo-hoo, guys: you get all the unresponsive sex you want. Sheesh. I'd think a fleshlight would be just as exciting.

But, then again, only men have ... urges to which the women submit. Because - for once - not Jesus, but Adam and Eve.
110
F*** the f****** Duggars they are a bunch of freaks. They should be obliterated from the Earth. Welcome to the 21 st century you shit Duggars. Women are powerful have their own identities and don't have to be subjected to men. They are not even setting their children up for success they are setting them up for failure and misery. Their children at a young age have been forced to learn about Jesus. They are brainwashing their children into thinking that only what they are doing is right and everyone else in the world will go to fucking Hell. F*** you Jim and Michelle for ruining yours kids lives. I HOPE THAT YOU ALL DIE!
111
Thank you so much for writing this! I grew up in the Quiverful movement, 3rd of 10 kids, finally got out, moved away, gave up religion, and came out as queer. Yes, it is most definitely a cult and fucking first is the best thing I ever did!
112
Really, no dancing or beaches? Temptation is a normal part of life and resisting temptation is admirable, not avoiding it altogether. I grew up in a conservative Mormon household, but we still danced, swam, and held hands, hugged and kissed on non chaperoned dates. I'm still Mormon, but far more progressive than my upbringing. I have seen enough to know that gay is not a choice and believe that they should have the same legal rights as straight people. I do have 4 children, but I chose to have a large family of my own free will. My husband respects me and my body and I, in turn, respect him. I would prefer that my children wait for sex until marriage, but I also understand if they decide not to, it is ultimately their choice. All I can do is make sure that I am always there for them to talk to, and if they do decide to #FuckFirst I can at least be supportive and urge them to be safe. I feel that the likelihood of teenage pregnancy will be an almost certainty if they feel as though they have to hide. BTW, my husband and I have decided that our family is now complete.
113
"Catholic" is another of those adjectives that, without qualification, is about as useful as "bisexual". Mr Savage's Catholicism seems to ebb and flow.
114
Dan, I have read your column for years and have always loved it. This particular column might be one of my all time favorites. It was funny, thoughtful, scary, interesting and echoed many of my own thoughts (and concerns) with the Evangelical/Quiverfull movement.





Like many of the comments above, I grew up in a conservative area with a strong Mormon and Jehovah Witness influence. I saw many of my peers get caught in the trap of "get married young, have kids young and it will all work out" plan. Not surprisingly, it did not work out for many of my high school friends and 20 years later, many of them are still struggling with what it means to be a single parent living in poverty. Guess what TWITCHY readers? Turns out being a single mom, having three kids and working at Walmart is not as wholesome or warm or wonderful as many evangelicals would lead you to believe.





Fortunately, my brothers and I were lucky that our parents were recovering Catholics who chose to be honest with us about education, sex and relationships. Although they wouldn't have used the term #fuckfirst, they certainly encouraged us to have healthy and happy relationships that included sex. As a result, all of us went to college, have careers, got married later, had kids later and enjoy the stability that comes with a bit of age, wisdom AND experience.





I truly feel sorry for these Duggar daughters in that they are so uninformed about sexuality, so easily exploited and so unable to discuss any unhappiness or discomfort that they might have. ("The Duggar girls don't get headaches" is a very telling line.) It's hard for me to imagine going from never-been-kissed to losing my virginity in less than 24 hours. It really feels like they have been robbed of their ability to have an honest experience with anyone.
116
There WAS a show about Muslim families in Michigan, but it was cancelled after conservatives in Florida petitioned Lowes to pull their advertising. So your thought experiment isn't even really an experiment--it happened. http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comm…
117
I agree with you to a certain extent. Having all of those kids and never being able to say to your husband "not tonight," is a little wack. I am christian and the bible if read in its entirety speaks of freedom in Christ. For women, that is not freedom as a quiverfill, sounds like slavery.


With that being said, there is nothing wrong with waiting for sex before bumping and grinding. Last thing you want is to catch a std, get pregnant or get heartbroken by a string of jerks before finding the right guy. No one wants an overworked vagina.


No marriage doesn't always protect you from all of the heartache, but keeping your goodies on lock can weed out the suckers a lot faster, and you will be better for it. I am speaking from experience.


Am I an extreme right winger because of my christianity? No. I love everyone because we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. He already died on the cross so no reason to feel condemned. God loves everyone and hasn't had a qualified person working for him yet. Just give your life, no shade, no condemnation, no anything. Just your heart. Peace and love to all of you. Yes you too Mr.Savage.
118
I agree with you to a certain extent. Having all of those kids and never being able to say to your husband "not tonight," is a little wack. I am christian and the bible if read in its entirety speaks of freedom in Christ. For women, that is not freedom as a quiverfill, sounds like slavery.

With that being said, there is nothing wrong with waiting for sex before bumping and grinding. Last thing you want is to catch a std, get pregnant or get heartbroken by a string of jerks before finding the right guy. No one wants an overworked vagina.

No marriage doesn't always protect you from all of the heartache, but keeping your goodies on lock can weed out the suckers a lot faster, and you will be better for it. I am speaking from experience.

Am I an extreme right winger because of my christianity? No. I love everyone because we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. He already died on the cross so no reason to feel condemned. God loves everyone and hasn't had a qualified person working for him yet. Just give your life, no shade, no condemnation, no anything. Just your heart. Peace and love to all of you. Yes you too Mr.Savage.
119
There are 19 of them and taking statistics under consideration, one of them must be gay. Wonder what they will do if that is disclosed?
120
Of course they should get their fair share of HPV! The world is so smart about sex! But "what if they get pregnant" you say? Easy, vacuum time! "Cuz itz her body! Duh. People who save themselves are sooo stupid. They don't even get an increased risk of cervical cancer and they don't get to long for the genitals of luvers pazt." Yes, this is really intelligent, Dan. Give me a break.
121
I am a Christian and as a Christian you hate the sin not the person so the fact that you said the duggars are thinking not very nice thoughts about you may not be true at all I know people who are gay or lesbian and I love them to no end but it is the sin of being gay that I don't care for the bible says that is the ultimate abomination it is talking about the sin not you. Of course you have your opinion on things and so does everyone else but just because someone has their life open for everyone to see doesn't mean they want people commenting or making rude remarks about their life. They are proud of their life choices so other people should just suck it up and move on, they don't care what your doing so I feel if you want to sit there and watch someone else live their life watch it quietly but if you have something negative to say keep it to yourself. They are doing what they feel is right for them, there family, faith, and community. If you can't stand up to make the changes you believe in then don't knock the person who is standing up for their rights and beliefs. I'm 22 I got married when I was 19 by my own choice I have 2 kids, I don't believe in abortion so I am against the planned parenthood but I don't want a huge family I know how to take precautions to make sure I don't have any more kids until I'm ready or ever. Be smart, don't just take an innocent child's life because your not ready to be a parent.
122
Great article!Too funny and I couldn't agree more! #fuckfirst
123
@117(118)
No one wants an overworked vagina.

You are trying SO hard to appear reasonable, but your message ultimately isn't. If a woman's giving birth in rapid succession doesn't overwork her anatomy, then how on earth is being penetrated by a series of penises (or even toys) going to do it? If anything, informed sexual practices usually lead to orgasms that will keep that vagina in excellent shape!

I call misinformation and misogyny.
124
@120 - You make no sense.
125
@123 - Well said!
126
#9, your belief in brainwashing could not possibly have come from a process of reasoning. It must have been planted in you by some malicious outside force. Your only hope is to try to pray it out, but oops, you have been brainwashed, I can't ask you to choose a different course, that would imply free will. Fuck, this is complicated.
127
@20, If you miss the "old" Stranger so much maybe you should go ready twitchy.com and stop with the high drama comments.
128
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! People are just not getting the inherent evil of the Duggars and their beliefs!
129
The reason why the Duggars are so tight with virginity standards is because Michelle was a little whore growing up and she and Jimbob, in my opinion, when they took things too far HAD to get married! She was 17 at the time and had a liking for wearing extremely short shorts while mowing her mommy and daddy's front lawn. Michelle is what we call "an attention whore" and she will do anything for attention...hence the show!
130
I think it's terrible to say that you should not marry someone that is a member of an evengelical church. I am an ELCA Lutheran and we are one of the most liberal churches in the country (we have gay pastors for example), and yes we are an evengelical church. Do some research before making generalized statements ok? And just to let you know the Catholic Church is considered evangelical since it actively seeks out new members, and you very clearly stated that you are a Catholic.
131
I agree with the premise of this article -- I was raised in a cultish, fundamentalist household and am one of five children -- but not with the seeming equation of the compatibility of a couple with whether or not the couple gets divorced. You write in a manner that only adds to the already popular stigma against divorce that has kept women like my mother in abusive relationships and facing lifetimes of unhappiness because divorce is equated with failure (from the article: "Sexual incompatibility leads to divorce ... Don’t marry young. People who marry young are much likelier to wind up divorced. And don’t marry evangelical or fundamentalist Christians, as they have higher-than-average divorce rates.") Again, I value what you've written, but can you maybe not make it seem like divorce is the worst possible outcome? Isn't a lifetime of misery worse? And isn't it just that, an outcome of incompatibility but not the only outcome, and, again, not the worst?
132
Yeah.. definitely push having sex with the brains of a pee so you can have children out of wedlock instead.. I know we all love seeing how the same thinking is inbred in the same type of out of wedlock brains that like to openly support dog fighting molestation or just throwing newborns in trash cans. How bout taking your wonderful skills and writing something moving about all the little children getting slammed and abused by half your readers. I support anyone trying to make a positive change in this world and I'm sorry you don't get that.
133
This post is fanning the flames of my holier-than-thou attitude as a cable TV refusenik. I was blissfully ignorant of this television spectacle until today. I suppose Dan has to deal with and comment on this sort of thing as part of his job. I, however, am going to go give my rabbit ears and digital converter box a big hug now.
134
What christians do is brag about themselves. How good they are. How much they can cherry-pick from their own book, which they wrote ages ago. That is what they do! And ask us to obey them, again and and again because they brag about being good. Not gonna happen. No fucking longer. And we did their fucking shit for a real long fuckin' time, but not fuckin' now.
135
JimBob wants his daughters to be virgins before they marry so he can get first crack at them.
136
@116: And the whole premise of that show was that they were basically just every day Americans. Can you imagine if they had been espousing fringe fundamentalist Muslim beliefs?
137
anybody who wants to get fuct first, and experience exactly what slog assholes really mean when they say #fuckfirst, click that punk motherfucker Tom the empirecist's link in comment number 115



these assholes aren't talking about physical intercourse between two or more living people



it's tabloid journalist speak for fucking your with your head by taking control of your computer, some call it gaslighting



but that's what happens when some butt hurt slogger's pride takes a minor dent, what a low life piece of shit that can't even come close to taking the shit they dish out 24/7
138
Hey Dan,



I think it's worth mentioning that the Christian Patriarchy/Quiverfull movement makes it very hard for adult women to leave, and not simply because it railroads young women into early marriage and early motherhood. There's also educational, spiritual, and psychological abuse that goes on in the form of inadequate homeschooling including science denialism, social isolation, and resistance/refusal to sending girls to college, and perhaps even more insidious, shunning in the case of 'rebelliousness'. Older daughters in these families are often the primary caregivers to their younger siblings, creating bonds that go beyond even the usual closeness that siblings feel. A young woman who might want to free herself from the CP lifestyle faces the prospect of having all contact with her family--especially those impressionable younger siblings whom she's raised--cut off completely and permanently. And since many of these families (and the Duggars are among them) practice home-churching, a shunned family member is also kicked out of her church. Even if the family attends a community church, that church likely supports the family's position and will shun the 'apostate'.



And as for the gay Duggar kid (or two), they will likely swallow the party line and convince themselves that they can have 'same sex attractions' so long as they don't act on them and they marry a person of the opposite sex. But hopefully we won't have to wait until their middle-age for them to realize that they deserve to have the sex and love life they want and that they can establish themselves as financially independent simply by writing the tell-all book about the family that we've all been waiting for. (Seriously--I'd buy that thing in hardcover!)
139
All very good Dirtclustit. But your opinions on the daughters husbands being vetted by their dad? That the wives are expected, after marriage, to indulge their husbands sexual wishes irrespective of how the women feel...
What's your take on that?
140
Just a note to all those commenting about Dan's Catholicism: As Dan as said on numerous occasions, he's a secular Catholic, a cultural Catholic. He was raised Catholic but he's not now a believer.
141
The bottom line is this:



When you understand how each and every freedom and liberty you choose to exercise comes with a responsibility that cannot be separated from the action of exercising said freedom or liberty. The most obvious is to allow others to freely choose to exercise the same freedom and to also respect that IT IS their decision and theirs only to make.



A real journalist understands these most basic, sacred rights, and fully sees the distinction of stating " it is up to each individual and my decision is to live MY life like this..." and how greatly that differs from "Your decision should be to do this"



the distinction is that one action respects the rights of all citizens, and one does not respect others rights at all



A tabloid journalist doesn't respect the rights to personal and private space, they justify trampling the rights of others with the bullscript excuse of "that's what they get, it's the price you pay for being in the spotlight"



So, even though the way I choose to practice my sexuality does not align with someone elses practice, it's OK for me to publicly state how I practice my sexuality, however it is abusing my rights of freedom of speech when I use words publicly that fail to respect the rights of others



It's certainly true that the leaders of Christian denominations are guilty of emotionally abusive language by simply implying that any person alive is wrong to accept -- fully accept -- the gift of life in Heaven, which some recognize as THIS life.



You are free choose who you share your life with, You are free to choose who you will start a family with, You are free to define your values



To imply that a person's sexuality is wrong when it is practiced in private spaces between fully knowledgeable consenting adults is wrong, as it overstepping your rights and begins to trample those rights that must be respected of others -- even those who live THEIR LIFE in ways you would not choose for your own



History has recorded that some religious denominations refuse to halt their assault on personal rights, freedoms and liberties of citizens, and there will be ramifications for their abuse of others



I speak out when churches trample the rights of a person to practice their sexuality. The People have the right to not be subjected to ridicule or criticism by those they are not practicing with.



They can preach whatever recommendations they want to while in their church, but they only show their own ignorance when they preach to trample anothers' rights or abuse freedom of speech by saying stupid things like implying that exercising your rights as an individual is wrong



I speak out when assholes trample the rights of people to practice their spirituality. The People have the right to not be subjected to ridicule or criticism by those they are not practicing with.



Dan and most sloggers as well as many Christians are ignorant of even the most basic rights Declared, so it's no wonder they are fully ignorant of Constitutional rights
142
Lava, any man or woman is free to choose what they desire in a relationship, and when they are fully knowledgeable adults they can consent to any agreements they desire.

When speaking of a relationship that I myself am not a part of, stating my unasked opinion can be considered abusive if and when it conflicts with the desires of the parties involved. Explicit consent of the adults who are involved in the private events have the right to live their life without public intrusion



I will say that I do believe Consent is retractable, and holding a person to their desire to consent during a time period of the past is abuse if and when the person no longer desires to experience the events



I don't think I can coherently answer your question regarding wives because very few people share my viewpoint of marriage, I believe I explained it to you as leaving your parents house and choosing to dwell with another person in a newly created living house that you share.



The paper certificate obtained here in the United States, issued by the county that the union symbolically began in, is not how I define marriage. That marriage is nothing but a vanity that bigots use to wrongfully discriminate against same sex and poly families
143
it also depends on the context of the word "sexual" in your question Lava, do you mean sex acts that people engage in that typical involves stimulation of genitals?



Or do you mean fucking someone over, invading there personal and private electronic memory with the bullshit, pis poor excuse that the victim was asking for it as proved by clicking a link or not employing the right language to officially not consent or not having the security to have a choice in the matter?



If the language you are using is grammarian, IT, or journalistic in your intended meaning, the answer that will be appropriate for ANY:



I can say with confidence that choosing to exercise any freedom, when you fail to respect or even recognize said right of another person, is one of if not the most foolish way to live your life



That type of stupidity and ignorance -- when lived -- is to accrue a debt which requires something of greater value then all money when the time comes that debts must be settled
144
Someone being semi-snarky on Twitter = Terrible, terrible persecution.

Actual persecution and trying to take over the government = Move along, nothing to see here.
145
"It’s a suggestion. I encourage couples to “fuck first” on Valentine’s Day, wedding days, and anniversaries. Fuck before that romantic meal or wedding reception because you’ll be too exhausted/full/drunk to fuck after."

That's a good, sensible rule -- and by golly, it's just *good time management*.
146
"once a Duggar girl is married, says Mom, she is never allowed to say no to sex. “Duggar women don’t get headaches,” Michelle told Us. “You always need to be available when he calls.”"

You just can't enjoy it, because that's for slutty whores who like rude, filthy cock.
147
People who value their privacy do not have their own television shows. The Duggars (or Duck Dynasty; same damn nonsense) put themselves in the public eye of their own free will. If you pimp your family out so that you can have a "career" in "reality" television, you don't get to then turn around and complain when not ALL of the attention you get is flattering.
148
I wasn't sure that Dan meant "fuckfirst" as in the journalistic fuck, as in not only completely invading all aspects of privacy, but also to post about it.



I am not so good a understanding what dickheaded journalist speak brazenly says just underneath the surface, but your highlighted quotes do a great job of illustrating that he did in fact, mean fuck their privacy.



and yes, Tessisee, when a journalist crew is on a "fucking" mission, you do have to be eveready to come to the assistance of some asshole getting caught "fucking" a joe public person



you don't have to be a slut to enjoy "fucking" a persons private space, you have to be one seriously fucked up lowlife who views themselves above the peasant commoners whom they have no respect



Just because a person or family puts themselves on a reality TV show, like Dan's fictional fucking family -- but even if they did exist -- that will never justify the invasions of privacy that a journalistic "fucking" entails.



If you can't see how every "point" Dipshit made is either taken out of context or else "not" what the fictional Duggard said, you are an idiot



"Duggard women don't get headaches" does not equal Duggard women can no longer not consent to being fucked



unless of course you mean being fucked by journalists, but speaking of journalists and the fucking they do, the victim's right to decline being fucked is never respected, in fact it only makes the fucking more pleasureable for the low lifes because then they get to rub their noses in it. Journalists don't get off on fucking someone's privacy when the victim is oblivious to their invasions
149
My wife has loved your articles since before I can remember. We have been married 13 years and by goodness if we hadn't fucked first we might haven't been so delirious in ecstasy and alcohol to tie the knot. Never really enjoyed your articles til this one. In fact I gave up nodding my head as my wife shared them with me. In fact she gave up on sharing them long ago (she is the smart one...and from Seattle which is why she follows your articles I assume.) Maybe I have just finally given in and understand that oooh some guy being objective and outspoken and not giving a shit isn't so passe'. Or maybe I welcome a fellow chap carrying on the vibrant disarray of a mindful rant of deviance. Gotta say "Well done Savage!" Cheers!
150
If this family are typical of their mileu, they would like homosexuality to be a criminal offence, perhaps even one attracting the death penalty.





So Dan has responded to people who most likely want to jail or kill him with mild jocularity.





Not something that would provoke outrage unless you really, really want to be outraged.
151
"if turns out that your husband prefers Dad’s auditions"
I lost it. Between Thelma and the Sleaze last night and that statement alone I think it might end up being an alright week.
152
the thing is (and most regrettably) it literally is no one's business how anyone conducts their affairs, sexual or otherwise, even when those "anyone"s are on tv. on the other hand, we should all be completely free to comment on any public figure - and the duggars are very public figures - even publicly. we should be able to rant about them, and everyone should be able to rant angrily about whatever we say about them.



it's rough for thought to be free.



is it insane that i despise the duggars (i think they're the locusts of the 1930's) while being aware that they're free to do what they do, as nauseating to me as it is?



the trouble begins where their lives intersect with everyone else: "i allow you to live as you wish, as long as you don't impinge on what i believe"; and there's your conflict: intent. they intend to change someone's life by political influence, whereas i would let them go in peace.



which is why i despise all religion. i cannot live by your code, and yet you agitate for me to live by it. jewish/christian/mormon law is as despicable to me as sharia - i won't do it.



i just want them to leave them to their lives, so they can leave me and mine (including dan, and all my other heroes) alone, but they won't. there are too many important things to be done to worry about whether one god or another commands otherwise. i hate all the holy books: they are silly frauds.
153
I've done a little reading about the purity culture and how they sell it to the girls. It's all about being a little princess, of course that appeals to many little girls. They are taught to save their wonderful treasure for that Prince Charming who will come along someday, with Daddy's approval. They are setting these poor girls up for a huge fall. What happens when they marry their prince, lose the virginity that made them such a special princess, and face a life of domestic drudgery? Time for a reissue of "The Feminine Mystique."
154
I've done a little reading about the purity culture and how they sell it to the girls. It's all about being a little princess, of course that appeals to many little girls. They are taught to save their wonderful treasure for that Prince Charming who will come along someday, with Daddy's approval. They are setting these poor girls up for a huge fall. What happens when they marry their prince, lose the virginity that made them such a special princess, and face a life of domestic drudgery? Time for a reissue of "The Feminine Mystique."
155
Im an atheist but the duggars are doing things right. Its our country and we need to breed or become minorities. Religion is nuts but life is nuts.

I dont have strong feelings on gays but they should not support foreigner,adopt, or promote homosexual lifestyle.
156
I think that there should be balance. The Duggards are too extreme, but I don't think that people should be out having sex with whoever walks by. Go out and see if you like each other, then if sex happens great - if not, that's alright as well. Date a variety of people so that you really learn about what you would like/need.

I do think that girls/women need to go back to having some modesty - not covered from head to toe, but not having their boobs hang out either.

I have read that the dad if trying to talk one of the girls out of going to college. She seems tied of being the unpaid nanny and housekeeper. Maybe she will escape this family. After all, they are homeschooled.

157
And now the horrifying truth is out -- the eldest Duggar son molested four of his younger sisters, one at age four, and at least one of their friends. Seeing one or more of the children come out as gay would be a relief. I can only imagine how damaging all this must be to these children. The only good that may come out of it is the exploitation of having their deepest personal lives play out in public may now end with the cancellation of this show.

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