Features Nov 5, 2014 at 4:00 am

Yes, they should. Duggar boys, too. And so should you.

While I was waiting to get my hair cut.


The Duggars should not fuck, period. They should put on chastity belts with padlocks and throw the keys in the ocean.
Mr Savage,

I really appreciate you speaking up for these children. I grew up in a fairly strict Christian household and ended up "leaving the faith" when I was 19. Sadly, from the way I was raised, I felt a lot of shame for my sexual thoughts for years... Now that I'm older I know that I am just a healthy sexual being. One of my biggest concern for these girls is the way they are being suppressed for years and then so insanely rushed. I couldn't imagine going from first kiss to losing my virginity in a matter of hours. I had six years in between my first kiss and first sexual experience... And still wasn't fully prepared. And how sad to miss out on those wonderful and exciting years of getting lost in kisses! How awesome is making out with someone you love for hours!! ...it's just sad. So maybe they are not the type to #fuckfirst but they should definitely #enjoythemakeout!
You sound much more hateful and bigoted than the Duggars do.
As nearly always, Dan, a well-written, thoughtful and amusing editorial. Sadly, it will prove too thoughtful and reasonable for the crazy fundies. But carry on, nonetheless.
As usual, a thoughtful well-written, amusing even, editorial. Sadly, it will likely be too thoughtful and rational for the fundies. Nevertheless, carry on!
@3, The Duggars are actively working to ban gay marriage and adoption. They are literally trying to take away Dan's husband and son.

So yeah, questioning their rules is much more hateful than taking away his family.
@3: It is a luxury the Duggars enjoy to "sound" less hateful and bigoted than their actions actually are.
“Duggar women don’t get headaches,” Michelle told Us. “You always need to be available when he calls.”

Now, considering she's the oldest Duggar woman, this means she is creepily knowledgeable about her married daughters' sex lives, and/or thinks a lot about what her younger daughters' future sex lives will be like, and thinks she can engineer them to her liking. Awful.
No matter how much the Duggar parents claim that their girls CHOOSE to enter courtships with strict rules, they have obviously been brainwashed. Why? Because the odds are strongly in favor of some of those children growing up and choosing to #fuckfirst. But that won't happen, you know, due to the programmed minds and all.

Again, as you mentioned, the odds are very high that at least one Duggar (and likely two!) are gay. But again, it's highly unlikely that they will ever acknowledge their gayness, not even to themselves, because they have been, from birth, constantly brainwashed to believe that being gay is a choice, and obviously the wrong choice, so it's not an option.

I do hope that several (at least!) of these children break free from the mold. They don't have to #fuckfirst, if THEY choose not to, but it should be their choice, a VERY personal choice, not a very creepy choice rammed down their throat from parents who are entirely too consumed with the reproductive organs of their children from the time they came out of Michelle's vagina.
The Duggars are a giant disaster just waiting to happen. Some of those kids are sure to grow up to be gay and / or liberal. Others are sure to wind up divorced, in rehab, or writing tell-all books about their parents. Just give it time, y'all, they'll almost certainly self destruct, and likely in spectacular fashion.
They can't even go to the beach? All those little kids, and no running screaming into the waves, no building sandcastles, no looking for shells...

When my daughter was little, she became obsessed with those teeny tiny little freshwater clam shells you find at our prairie lakes. She'd collect a big batch of them, take them home, draw faces on them, and use them as characters in the long imaginary adventures she'd act out in her room. She's 23 now, she found a jar of them she had saved, when we were recently clearing out her old room, and teared up.

Yup, pretty sinful.

My feeling is that people who spend a lot of time and effort making sure no one has sex are so much more sex obsessed than the rest of us. Their minds are like sewers.
babies for the welfare, hep to the hive
Having grown up with a pretty strict evangelical background, it's more about fear than filth. They are trying so hard to be 'perfect' to be worthy of God's love that they'll ban anything that might cause them to stumble. They are so afraid of falling short of God's holiness that they deprive themselves of the true joys of life. I know I'm much happier since I moved toward the progressive side of the spectrum.
Quiverfull: the American Taliban.

They're going to hate that hypothetical Muslim family comparison - because it's dead on.
@11 I think the beach prohibition isn't a fear of waves, water, or clams, so much as it is a fear of the revealing nature of bathing suits.

I'm sure nice, traditional women like the Duggars know how to sew. Perhaps they could make themselves some of these: http://thehourglassfiles.com/?p=1951
This is truly the endgame of centuries of American white supremacism--making it the "cool new thing" to make white teenage girls want to have oodles and oodles of babies. Targeting the information-poor ones, naturally. Mormons. Southern Baptists. To replace all the mainline Protestants and Catholics who kind of gave up on this shit a few generations ago.

Fuck them and their garbage pail kids.
Yeah, I know it's all about exposed skin, but the end result is that kids don't have wholesome fun because of fear.

When I was swimming last night, a Hutterite family was at the pool. The girls wore home made modest swimsuits - the kind of thing we wore in the early sixties - with little t shirts over them. The boys wore knee length jams.

Everybody was having a lot of fun. When Hutterites start to look like the enlightened and progressive ones, you know there's a problem.

bless you
This type of traditional "Duggar" thinking is what got human kind overpopulated and in the global mess we are in. And yes, I can use their name to describe the thinking of the Dominionists because they actively pursue the goal of being spokespeople of the movement. This is not first world values. These are third world values. While I respect all individuals, these values, I don't respect.

Thanks for this article, Dan!! :-)
That sure is a lot of column inches for saying nothing. But, I guess that is The Stranger nowadays: provactive headline, followed by no content. Yawn.

You have no more right to pass judgment on them than they have to pass judgment on you, but guess what, you are both doing it. At least they are being polite about it.

Oh interesting, funny, thoughtful, edgy artful stranger, I miss you so much since you have gone. But it has been a long time ago now.
@20: Is your browser not working right? Because Dan said plenty.

We have every right to pass judgment on them - they're actively trying to deprive women, gays, and non-Christians of their civil rights, and there's nothing polite about that, is there?

I doubt this interesting, funny, thoughtful, edgy artful stranger you miss was ever as homophobic, sexist, and vapid as you'd like it to have been.
Wikipedia needs to write a "List of religious organizations who thought they could rule the world by out-breeding everyone else (ha ha ha)". Can you have (ha ha ha) in a Wikipedia title?

I suppose somebody would say that's identical to List of religious organizations, so why bother? Maybe keep that list and add (ha ha ha) to the end.
People who use their families as the cast of reality programs should have their children taken away, their reproductive organs rendered inoperative, and be forever banned from adopting.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-fe… Heres your answer to the Muslim family reality show question. They were met with boycotts and protests.
I live in Fayetteville, Arkansas where the Duggars are actively trying to repeal our anti-discrimination ordinance and have pumped thousands of dollars into getting their extremist candidates elected to our City Council. These people are a plague that is overthrowing our progressive little college town with their religious nutbaggery. Please send help!
Dan, the Duggars will never win. I don't think even THIS country is that crazy.
Just a small minority.

When we stop giving them airtime, perhaps they will suffocate.
Dan Savage I l<3 you. If I were a gay man I would be all over you...hell I'm a straight woman and I wish I could get me some Savagelove. Do you.
I'm going to split a hair and at that Dan should have saved this until a little closer to thanksgiving. Why?

In my ethnic studies class 22 years ago, the professor went off plan a little and talked about the comin holiday, mostly the myths surrounding it regarding the pilgrims. Forgive the holes in my synapses of the lecture, it's been many years gone by and a lot of bongwater down the drain.
Seems the pilgrims had one stop in their escape from religious persecution before they came to mooch off the "Indians" and take their land. That notoriously tolerant nation of the Netherlands. They spent a few years there, living alongside other religious groups for their fragile young children to interact with. The ones old enough to walk away did, or at least a few of them did. The puritans did not like this. Freedom from religious persecution was not enough. They needed a homeland, and by golly there was some land available in Massachusetts, unsettled. The puritans did not come here for religious freedom, they came here for religious dominance. And they had it for awhile, and even without explicit dominance, thanks to thanksgiving, they have been given credit for being vital to our cultural heritage as a nation.

I'm inclined to believe that this is what's wrong with the US & A. Even when we are not conservative Christians, we tend to be puritanical in our thoughts. Don't think liberals can be puritanical? Just look at American socialism, 90's indie rock (why was Kurt contain so uncomfortable with his success) and Earth First.

That's why I'm fond of saying "fuck the puritans", because even the best ideas in America get infected with the puritanical thought process!
Josh Duggar and Ben Seewald (the teenage groom of Jessa Duggar) have also publicly posted stuff like Catholics=Wrong beliefs. So they are judging you Mr. Savage on a variety of levels!

Sex on demand even when a woman does not want to say yes, but does so because she has been brainwashed to believe that it is the only option is rape. These girls are sold into sexual slavery by Jim Bob so he can have wedding stuff to keep the show going on. By judging their behavior we are saying that it is unacceptable to under-educate, brainwash, and abuse your children into becoming mindless automatons who will have no free will and become the property of other people while producing another generation of abuse victims. Bravo Mr. Savage b/c you had the guts to tell it like it is, not like the lemmings who watch the Duggars and celebrate their abusive lifestyle.
Dear Mr. Savage,

I read this article and I thought of you. I want you to know that I am praying for you and love you very much. You have so much energy and spirit. I've seen you interviewed in your house and noticed all the religious artifacts. God is a hound of heaven and the only one which will fill the restless heart.


Your sister in Christ!
They scare me more than any Muslim family.

Dan Savage, I love you to pieces.

What if non religious people started the quiverfull movement? It'd be chaos!
I've got to disagree with you on one thing...an Islamic family in this same situation would be 'protected' by self-proclaimed liberals and progressives. Anyone criticizing them would be lambasted for intolerance of other cultures. It just seems to be OK when it's Christianity. And the Muslims take this ridiculousness to a greater degree. Neck to knee clothing for Duggars? Muslims have the hijab (not even hair from the head can show!). Got raped? You just had sex outside of marriage, shamed your family, and may be put to death. The insanity is everywhere, and stems from RELIGION (all of them), which is man's ham-handed use of faith (a spiritual relationship) to try to control people.
@36- Bullshit. The strawman of the liberal who defends Islam comes up all the time. It's not real.

And if the Duggars really believe the Bible, then yes they do believe rape victims have shamed their family and either should marry their rapist or get stoned to death. That is what the Good Book says and an increasing number of American Christians are starting to believe that crap. And is the difference between covering your hair and shins and covering yourself neck to bottom of the knee really that much?

@32- "God is a hound of heaven..."

I would like to know what your source is for stating (science: The more sons a woman has, the likelier the younger ones are to be gay).

I think it will be very interesting if this is the case and I would be wondering what will cause this phenomenon. It might be natures way (or Gods way, depending on ones beliefs) of ensuring there will not be to many men opposed to women, in order to ensure a men vs women ratio that will be beneficial for reproduction.
Dear Dan Savage: Great piece. I mean really. After yesterday's election results, this gives me a whole new perspective on the phrase "the morning after." Thank you.
Didn't they just marry? Didn't I read that at their wedding, they actually DIDN'T kiss -- they had the Dugger parents kiss instead.

No holding hands before engagement? No kissing before marriage (and in their case, possibly not after, either)? That's much more extreme than even Victorian sensibilities. It's far closer to radical Muslim extremism than most hard-core Christians of this century, the last century, or even the century before that.
You can't use the word "duggar": that's THEIR word.
It's a slur when you say it.
Yes, big difference. Christians generally shun or lecture people who violate a dress code. Muslims stone them to death. Christ stopped the stoning with "He who is without sin...". As for the "good book", you're talking old testament which shouldn't come into play with CHRISTIANS, as he came to sever our ties with the old church. Fanatics like the Duggars cling to old scripture as an excuse to exert control.

How many liberals defending muslems do you want me to find for you?
As for the whole #FuckFirst thing, that's right on. Imagine being forced to buy one car for the rest of your life based on looking at it. No getting in, taking it for a spin, asking about previous maintenance. Seems kind of silly. One of the last things I want in a lifelong mate is sexual incompatibility.
I did the Evangelical wait for marriage and marry young thing. It's not quite as heavy on the patriarchy, etc as the Duggars, but it's in the same neighborhood. I dated a fairly controlling guy when I was eighteen, but he dumped me and my heart was broken. But I did learn something from it. I learned that if I was going to be expected to submit to my husband, I had to marry someone who was not the kind of person to ever pull rank on me.

I met him when I was twenty-one, married him less than a year later. We had our fourth kid when we were 27 and 28, respectively. We are now 43 and 44 and I do love that man. He is the best the best person I know.

BUT I would never EVER recommend my kids do things the same way. We were hella lucky. I'm glad I got out of that culture before I pushed the stupid virginity and courtship stuff on my kids any more than I did. Really glad.
"Submission is also demanded of children,"

Oh man. My greatest wish in this world is that these asshats have a child who's exactly like my son - as headstrong as they come. Then they'll learn all about how trying to dominate the unsubmissive gets you exactly nowhere.

But then, people like my son (who gets his stubbornness from his mother - her opinion, not always mine) don't exactly *come* from people like the Duggars, because they're all about submitting themselves to their god. My wife, being stubborn and unwilling to submit to *anyone*, left the church before she turned 14. You just don't find people like these in cults like this, because honestly, they'd sooner roast in hell than be told what to do.
I did the Evangelical wait for marriage and marry young thing. It's not quite as heavy on the patriarchy, etc as the Duggars, but it's in the same neighborhood. I dated a fairly controlling guy when I was eighteen, but he dumped me and my heart was broken. But I did learn something from it. I learned that if I was going to be expected to submit to my husband, I had to marry someone who was not the kind of person to ever pull rank on me.

I met him when I was twenty-one, married him less than a year later. We had our fourth kid when we were 27 and 28, respectively. We are now 43 and 44 and I do love that man. He is the best the best person I know.

BUT I would never EVER recommend my kids do things the same way. We were hella lucky. I'm glad I got out of that culture before I pushed the stupid virginity and courtship stuff on my kids any more than I did. Really glad.
Wow that's really sad that you claim to be Catholic. Talk about hypocritical. Regardless of denomination, no one that claims Christian would agree with anything you just said. It's called having morals, but wait, clearly you don't have any.
@ 48 - having morals is not the same thing as being afraid of sex.

A case could be made, in fact, that no one who subscribes to an authoritative religion - that kind that lays down specific rules for behaviour - has morals, because they have never had to develop any. They're just following the rules rather than internalizing an ethical sense.

@ 46 Actually, what they often do to a kid like your son is come down on him so hard, so young, that his spirit is broken. And sometimes his body - it's not unknown for a stubborn child in an authoritative/abusive home to be beaten to death.
This family reminds me of the Phelps' family, that rabid anti-gay protest launching pastor who haunted funerals. The man is the head of the church, which is about the same as the family. Don't know as much about Phelps' sex life thank god but I think it's sick what happens to the kids. The Phelps kids were so sad. Do the Duggar kids have to be lawyers too?

It should be illegal for parents to be able to abuse their kids like this. To teach them to act against their own self interest as tools of the head of family. And those poor girls. To be raised to treat sex as a chore. To expect it to be bad sometimes. I think if they did that with food and their children developed eating disorders it would be taken seriously. But people seem to enjoy this fucked up talk about men being owed sex. I wonder why. I don't think many guys want to have sex with someone who isn't into them, in reality. Between this crap and Ghomeshi I might be wrong...
@48: Maybe you should not throw stones when you evidently think that Catholics and "quiver fulls" have the only way.
As a Christian, I want to apologize for the unkind names you were called. Everyone has a right to share their thoughts, I hope we never loose the right to disagree with one another in an open way.
Hi Dan,

I just wanted to say sorry about the mean names you were called because of your thoughts. I hope that we always have a right to openly share how we feel with one another, even if we disagree and better yet that we would seek to understand one another rather than name calling one another.

Some religious people do teach women to submit at all cost to their husbands but the line they are referring to says more........

Ephesians 5:22-33

22 Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body. 24 As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her 26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, 27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 So [also] husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body.

Ideally marriage would be a symbol of Christ love for the church and his people. A love that seeks to serve the other, a love that is kind even when the other is unkind or unlovely, this is agape love.

Unfortunately as Christians we don't always show this ideal model in marriage and sometimes it is quite the opposite!

So husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loved the church, so husbands are called to love their wives to the point of being willing to die for her.

As a strong college educated women, I have to admit when a man is being loving on this deep level, it is easy to submit or seek to be in agreement with one another because I know he has my best interest in mind.

On the research part you quoted....

There might be more to the story about Christians having a higher divorce rate. The majority of Americans claim to be Christians while only a small percentage attend church regularly and seek to pursue their faith on a day to day basis. shaunti feldhahn just wrote a book called : The Good News about Marriage that covers the research that was pertaining to Christians and the high divorce rate. So I am not trying to defend the divorce rate of Christians but just saying there might be more to those numbers. I personally would love to know more about your story and how you came to these conclusions.


Shannon White
@Jovita: The science is there. You can google it if you need explanation. The short story is that there is a lot of evidence to suggest that the same gene that makes women super fecund in a man can manifest itself as gay. There is no known (yet) lesbian gene and the data is still new for the male gay genetics.

@Gromm: The Duggars have a cure for headstrong children. There is a reason that they control so many children and have them brainwashed so well. It is called abuse. They follow, and even sell the book on their site, To Train Up a Child by Michael and Debi Pearl. This disgusting book is a primer on how to to abuse a child not until they comply but until they comply AND smile, even when beaten within an inch of their lives. In the Duggar/Pearl world a child is sinning if they are not always expressing happiness so children are routinely beaten with plumbing line and/or locked in a closet, often named a prayer closet. They start hitting children as young as 6 weeks old, even crawling off of a designated blanket results in hitting a child, they call this blanket training. Imagine scaring the sh*t out of your children so much that even a tiny baby will no longer crawl, play, or explore lest they get beaten. This is how they break a headstrong child, the same way a person would break a wild horse… through abuse.

~I am someone who has only had sex with my husband. I do not think that waiting for sex is a bad thing, although I think marrying the first weirdo that comes along is. The Duggar children are not waiting for sex, they are so young when they have sex. They are not allowed to wait for the right person, or be alone with them or find out the kind of person they are tied to. The daughters cannot say no, Daddy picks your husband and you pretend to date but you have to marry the guy you wnet out with b/c to do otherwise makes you look like some sort of slutty used wad of gum.

The Duggars do not give their children the benefit of even a basic middle school education. Frankly, their sex lives don’t matter much to me, but purposely isolating and under-educating your children and beating them all in the name of maintaining control over them is beyond disgusting. It is immoral and illegal, yet the Christians who run this country will allow other Christians to perpetrate all levels of sh*t in the name of Jeebus while denying adults in this country basic rights and protections. I sincerely hope that JimBoob and Moochelle Duggar get what they deserve, such as going to prison for serial child abuse.
I watch the Duggars, and I shake my head at how Jim Bob treats his daughters. The entire episode of Jill's wedding he was WAY too obsessed with her getting married!! Kinda creepy... I couldn't live this way. I guess I like sin too much oh and my dad is Jewish!
Someone in the comments above said something like "Americans aren't that crazy..." Sorry, but after yesterday's elections, Americans have proved they are definitely "that crazy." I want nothing more to do with this country.
#3 When Dan Savage starts advocating the Duggars have no right to marriages where women submit to their husbands and breed like rabbits then you can make your absurd claim. Until then piss off.
#55 I've always thought that kind of behavior out of fathers was a type of incest by proxy. Creepy.
@#15: Swimsuits that reveal upper arms & expose the legs above the ankles are for godless whores! :-D

I wish that Dan had mentioned the Duggar children's lesbian aunt.
To the commenters who think whatever Duggar children are queer won't come out, even to themselves, not so fast. There are more than a few LGBT homeschoolers who are from families just as strict as the Duggars who are out now. Some of them are activists now.

"Full disclosure: I’m a dirty sodomite..."

Would have been nice to know this before I ever trusted stranger dot com enough to be able to click a link

but I guess I need to take responsibility, as it's clearly my fault for assuming that just because slog staff was an advocate for same sex marriage that they would be progressive enough to understand that electronically ass fucking a site visitor is trampling that visitor's rights, that said visitor was asking for it by clicking a link.

After all, once I read around a little it becomes clear, esp from the comments, supporting same sex marriage does not mean the person understands why it's necessary to be able to respect every freedom and liberty of others, esp when said freedoms and liberties are ones you choose to exercise

You here the same old bullshit excuses and rationalizations like " Muslims are evil children raping sub-humans who should not have the freedoms and liberties I have "

The Associated Press was fairly successful in similar propaganda spreading against communism back in the day, so it's understandable they'd bring the full court press against the "new" enemy

Kind of sad how many people fail to think critically and question whether or not the piece of shit people abusing freedom of speech by refusing to not fully disclose the truth or knowingly slanting stories, that possibly the real enemy are those who publish the bullshit "facts" that appear to corroborate the fear that they use to manipulate The People's mind frame

You either believe in personal rights, freedoms, and liberties which entails respecting said rights for others to exercise

or you don't

It is well within a Muslim or Christian's parents rights to raise their children the way they see fit according to how they wish to live

so you can claim every bullshit fear and exaggerated one time event carried out by the rarest extremist, and use that to justify trampling their rights, it only points to your pathetic asses not deserving the liberties rights and freedoms you won't hesitate to abuse

fucking low lifes
Josh Duggar now works for the ultra-conservative Family Research Council, which many consider to be a quasi-terrorist/hate group. Ben Seewald's family likens abortion to the Holocaust. Class A guys, right there. Right.

(Disclaimer: I don't care if people are pro-life/pro-choice - it's really not my business. But when someone (jessa duggar) uses her "fame" to naively tweet (something along the lines of), "just visited the holocaust memorial in DC with Ben. What a sad place. Reminds me of all the tragic lives lost every day through abortion. Terrible!"....well, I just have shake my head...
62 If they were pro-life they would be anti war, but I believe you meant to say anti-abortion .
dan i love "you"...your column. i almost never disagree with or frown on a thing you say. but with that tweet, this time, you opened yourself up to the backlash and although you might have justified reason to complain, i have no empathy...DESPITE too being sickened by the cult behavior, rules, norms, mores and all that shit.

“I’m guessing #FuckFirst isn’t one of the rules.”

you call it snarky but it was really more snide. you really ought not "feel" so "confused" about what ensued...
In addition to the important points raised in the column, let's not forget that they're GETTING PAID for this show. Ten years of reality television has supercharged their egos and fine-tuned their demeanors and mannerisms in dealing with media. Sad, sadder, sinful, and saddest.
I am surprised to hear you identify as Catholic. Why identify with a religion that rejects you? Well, not you, just what you do. Gotta love that Catholic bullshit. Glad to identify myself as a recovering Catholic.
19 children. Good God, she must have one stretched fanny. Hope she's been doing her pelvic floor exercises. Poor Woman. All those labours!
Did she Breast feed 19 children? Frightening thought.
Hope the QuiverPorn business goes well for them.
OBG, I think that's asshole's idea of a second line of defence, if they can't take the fuck, joke em
Oh now I see why you can't keep your mouth shut. They offend you! Love it.
Mr Savage,

I believe you're a worthless piece of shit for a human being. The Duggar family affairs should not be your concern. Wether or not they choose not to have premarital see before marriage is non of your business. And for you to critize their morals, you're worth noting. You're right, who would marry a filthy worthless piece of shit like you. Who the hell are you to judge the parents. I believe they've done a wonderful job raising their children that way. They should wait till their wedding night to have intercourse with their beloved husband or wife. I say "NO" they shouldn't Fuck first.
OK, I understand what a dirty cock is, but what is a rude cock?

We should be so thankful that TV has brought families like these (and the Honey boo boo or whatever their name is) to a large audience and given them a larger pulpit they could have ever dreamed of. God bless TV and programing that focuses on the lowest common denominator.
Barren women like me would have been burned at the stake with a Quiverfull of wood by people like the Duggars, had we lived a few centuries ago.
I consider myself a conservative quasi-fundamentalist Christian. It's a hard row to hoe being in a such a position, as most who identify similarly are nothing of the sort. Most Fundamentalists do a great job of reading scripture, however they often ignore biblical context and almost never factor historical context. It is a dangerous proposition basing your life, and in effect, faith on one or two verses. The entire text as well as historical and cultural context must be considered. That's being fundamental.

I #fuckedfirstmanyandoften. It was the best thing for my life and marriage. I never have the regret of 'what might have been'.

the difference is xetheia, that today we all know how full of shit the Associated Press is, so the is no excuse to let asshole journalists influence your life

I am sure somewhere in the world there might be someone that is sort of like the irresponsible, manipulative dip shit, the slog author is describing, however the only "duggard" that is we not sure as of this point in time that is a violator of other's rights is the punk ass slogger
The phrase "Duggar women don't get headaches" absolutely turned my stomach. Thanks for providing a much-needed perspective on the beliefs driving this family.
the only accurate portion of dipshit's essay, is that he thinks you should fuck people you might consider for a serious relationship, and he communicates this by mocking someone who does not share his view to assfuck, gaslight, abuse, and repeatedly violate their personal, private space despite repeated published protests not to

everything else is a blatant exaggeration or outright false claim.

or lies by ommission

the verse that Dan left out (after the colon) is something along the lines of

they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

You know what asshole, I get it, Americans have allowed the control of the abominable church and the Associated Press to use fear and lies to abuse the Constitution and use it for Govt sponsored bigotry toward LGBT and Poly families

that's fucked up, and had people spoken up we could have fixed that injustice much earlier

but just because you realize that was an injustice doesn't mean people will remain silent so idiot sloggers can begin a whole nuther campaign of ignorant justifications to trample a person's or people's right to basic freedoms and liberties

there is no excuse for that type of ignorance

it is straight up denial, and it is dipshit choosing to deny it, that motherfucker knows the truth
Married Duggar women aren't allowed to say no to sex? Is this Quiverfull doctrine or Michelle's horrific personal take on it? If the former, their doctrine is in some pretty serious conflict with marital rape law.
Somehow I managed to make it to my wedding night a virgin. I was 26 and had had many opportunities to give away that gift prematurely. By the grace of God, I was able to wait and got to know the man I married in a wonderful way during our courtship. We worked, played, prayed, talked together. We have been married 15 years and have 7 children and over time our whole relationship has matured through the very real trials of our life into something so beautiful. I think that great sex is a matter of great love or self-donation or wanting what is best for the beloved. He never wants me to denigrate myself and wants me to enjoy him and I want that for him. Our sexual union is an expression of our union in all parts of our marriage. There is so much trust and joy and beauty. It gets better!
Dan would have you think that douglas, but the quote (which was probably out of context as that is a tabloid SOP)

Duggards never get headaches

or possibly Duggard Women don't get headaches

and then dipshit goes straight to the tabloid subsidiary work from the Slate
This movement has actually been around since the 70's, the Duggars are not new. I knew of families growing up who believed in this theory. They were just less obvious about it. I went to summer camp where females could only wear skirts and the had to below the knee, many families had 6+ kids ( I am sure they had more I was only 9 at the time. Many of them like the Duggars restricted who their kids could play with, many home schooled. The children are now in their 40's and are quietly being elected to government. There they are waiting until their numbers are high enough to be able to pass these laws with out opposition. I fear in the next election in the US that will happen. Then you will see the religious laws starting to be brought in. these people criticize Muslim countries for mixing religion a politics but they are doing the same thing.
There is a book you all should check out, if you all are not familiar with it already, called The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. (1985) It is a short, must-read story. A very important book, I think, about "a totalitarian Christian theocracy which has overthrown the United States government, The Handmaid's Tale explores themes of women in subjugation and the various means by which they gain agency." (Wikipedia) Please consider reading it and passing on to friends and family.

Below is a more descriptive portion of the book's theme from from Library Journal (via Amazon)

"...In the Republic of Gilead, formerly the United States, far-right Schlafly/Falwell-type ideals have been carried to extremes in the monotheocratic government. The resulting society is a feminist's nightmare: women are strictly controlled, unable to have jobs or money and assigned to various classes: the chaste, childless Wives; the housekeeping Marthas; and the reproductive Handmaids, who turn their offspring over to the "morally fit" Wives. The tale is told by Offred (read: "of Fred"), a Handmaid who recalls the past and tells how the chilling society came to be. This powerful, memorable novel is highly recommended for most libraries."
All I can say is, I'm glad I don't use twitter or any of that shit. How fucking tiring.
@Dirtclustit you do realize that your comments are barely readable, and assininely difficult to follow, right? Whatever you have to say, I might suggest you learn to write, so that others can understand your point. Otherwise you just look entirely the idiot.

I, quite honestly, have NO IDEA whether I agree with you or not... because I have NO IDEA what you're drolling on about.
Can you imagine marrying someone that you've never had a private conversation with, let alone kissing and fucking?
I am scared to ask what Dad's auditions are...nope, doesn't sound creepy at all, Michelle....
@70, if the Duggers don't want other people commenting on their silly courtship rituals, they probably should stop splashing them across magazines. If you don't want people disagreeing with you, you better get off the soap box in the public square.

Did your husband come to his wedding night a virgin? Just curious. You never really mentioned. I wasn't a virgin, but my ex-husband was the only person I had been with when we tripped down the aisle. Rather than leading me to nirvana through ignorance (I had no idea what I was missing) I found myself deeply unsatisfied and depressed over our sex life because I had a (1) pretty darn high libido and (2) he was remarkably selfish.

We divorced, i remarried. thank goodness I got a little experience so I knew that the man I married was a generous kind lover.

For every one spouting off about how awesome being a virgin is with marriage, there is just as man who found themselves miserable due to incompatibility.
@Dirtclustit, @83 is right: your comments are uniformly batshit insane and incomprehensible. As far as I can tell, today you seem to be claiming that Dan has started a campaign to deprive the Duggars of their basic human rights. If this reading is correct, what in god's name are you talking about? Are you from another fucking planet???
I want to hear that one of their children is gay. I want to hear that one is pregnant out of wedlock. I want to hear that one doesn't believe in God and refuses to go to church. Their "happy little reality life" is sickening--imo.
I guess with Honey Boo Boo out the way making white folks look bad, time to shove these bigots down the crapper that is American media. I never knew (and boy how I missed those days) who these people are. For all I knew I thought they were Amish.

But truer words were never spoken about them: "But the right wing doesn’t have a problem with the Duggars: They’re the right color, they worship the right God, and they want to impose the right brand of theocracy."

If they were any other color... No TV. No magazine. Nothing. In fact, they would be branded as cultural terrorists or some nonsense.
Even as a born again Christian I am appalled at the "the wife never has headaches" rule & pretty much that whole family in general. Overpopulation much?

Please know that there are Christians that are not anti-birth control, not anti-gay & that we are just as taken aback from this family.

Q: Are the Duggars part of the QuiverFull movement?

A: The Duggars write in their second book, A Love That Multiplies: "Even though Wikipedia and some Internet blogs report that we are part of a QuiverFull movement, we are not. We are simply Bible-believing Christians who desire to follow God's Word and apply it to our lives" (page 92).
We should just boycott TLC. I never was an avid watcher, but I will no longer watch it. And why is TLC airing a program like this?
How dare you attack these good Christians' 1st Amendment rights by disagreeing with them? Christians have the right to free speech and free means no disagreeing or debating or pushback or criticism, especially from non-Christians. It says so right there in the 1st Amendment!
The quiverfull movement sounds like the prequel to Idiocracy.
@ 91 - And you believe them!?!

That was probably written by a PR firm.
@43- You need to google "No True Scotsman" because you're argument for Christians being better than Muslims (spell it right) is a "No True Scotsman" defense.

Jesus didn't do anything to change the Old Testament rules. He was a good Jew, as far as we can tell. Paul (a guy who claimed to have met Jesus in a vision no one else saw) was the guy who decided Christianity wasn't a Jewish religion.

But none of this really matters, because modern people shouldn't get their moral codes from Middle Eastern religious fanatics of any kind from any age.
So let me get this straight, everyone is posting on disagreement and sharing their stories on when and how old they were when they had sex and those people felt that the decisions they made at the time, were right. NEWS FLASH: EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN DAMN OPINION AND RULES AND MORALS FOR HOW THEY CHOOSE TO LIVE THEIR OWN LIFE. You don't want people to judge you... Yet that's the only thing you're doing. Mind your own people. Those kids are taken care of( something a lot of people in this country can't do) and how they choose to raise their OWN children is up to them. Stop thinking your sad little opinions matter..not just about the Duggars but about every person you come in contact with. Not your life. Not your path. Don't agree? Change the channel. Simple.
I got an email from AJ Jacobs from an ancestry project and he had this to say about the Duggars: "Fun fact: If all 19 of their kids have 19 kids, and the pattern continues, there will be 2 billion Duggars in nine generations."

You know what, this is not a "fun" fact...this is an incredibly frightening revelation, both for its irresponsibility and because of the implications it poses for spreading an ideology that at its core aims to limit human rights and freedoms. Question: If the Duggars were Muslim instead of Christian, would it still be a "Fun Fact"? Would they have a hit reality TV show?
@48, having Morals? What is Moral about the women being available at all times to satisfy their husbands sexual appetite? To become some sort of breeding machine..
I am surprised they managed to figure out HOW to have 19 children. With NO sex ed and no experience how to begin?
@70; " I think you're a worthless piece of shit for a human being".
And you call yourself a Christian?

Dan was to gentle on the Duggars. They publicly advocate for raping women and women not having a right to not be raped. That's pretty extreme. They publicly state they raise their daughters to be raped by a man primarily of the father's choosing. That's child abuse.

They expect a girl with no sexual experience to consent to not just having sex with a man of her father's choosing, but to never having the right to say no to sex with a man of her father's choosing. How can she, when she doesn't even know what sex is like and certainly doesn't know what sex with him will be like?

I feel quite sorry for these girls and the young women of the family. They do not have enough life experience and breadth of exposure to make informed decisions, and yet they are pushed into sex slavery. I do not see how that doesn't meet the definition of a cult.

And this isn't about Christianity, since most Christians do not advocate this. And many, many Christians do not take a pro-rape stance. This is about an abusive family using religion as an excuse to hurt people.

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