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Nov 5, 2014
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Comments
I really appreciate you speaking up for these children. I grew up in a fairly strict Christian household and ended up "leaving the faith" when I was 19. Sadly, from the way I was raised, I felt a lot of shame for my sexual thoughts for years... Now that I'm older I know that I am just a healthy sexual being. One of my biggest concern for these girls is the way they are being suppressed for years and then so insanely rushed. I couldn't imagine going from first kiss to losing my virginity in a matter of hours. I had six years in between my first kiss and first sexual experience... And still wasn't fully prepared. And how sad to miss out on those wonderful and exciting years of getting lost in kisses! How awesome is making out with someone you love for hours!! ...it's just sad. So maybe they are not the type to #fuckfirst but they should definitely #enjoythemakeout!
So yeah, questioning their rules is much more hateful than taking away his family.
Now, considering she's the oldest Duggar woman, this means she is creepily knowledgeable about her married daughters' sex lives, and/or thinks a lot about what her younger daughters' future sex lives will be like, and thinks she can engineer them to her liking. Awful.
Again, as you mentioned, the odds are very high that at least one Duggar (and likely two!) are gay. But again, it's highly unlikely that they will ever acknowledge their gayness, not even to themselves, because they have been, from birth, constantly brainwashed to believe that being gay is a choice, and obviously the wrong choice, so it's not an option.
I do hope that several (at least!) of these children break free from the mold. They don't have to #fuckfirst, if THEY choose not to, but it should be their choice, a VERY personal choice, not a very creepy choice rammed down their throat from parents who are entirely too consumed with the reproductive organs of their children from the time they came out of Michelle's vagina.
When my daughter was little, she became obsessed with those teeny tiny little freshwater clam shells you find at our prairie lakes. She'd collect a big batch of them, take them home, draw faces on them, and use them as characters in the long imaginary adventures she'd act out in her room. She's 23 now, she found a jar of them she had saved, when we were recently clearing out her old room, and teared up.
Yup, pretty sinful.
My feeling is that people who spend a lot of time and effort making sure no one has sex are so much more sex obsessed than the rest of us. Their minds are like sewers.
They're going to hate that hypothetical Muslim family comparison - because it's dead on.
I'm sure nice, traditional women like the Duggars know how to sew. Perhaps they could make themselves some of these: http://thehourglassfiles.com/?p=1951
Fuck them and their garbage pail kids.
When I was swimming last night, a Hutterite family was at the pool. The girls wore home made modest swimsuits - the kind of thing we wore in the early sixties - with little t shirts over them. The boys wore knee length jams.
Everybody was having a lot of fun. When Hutterites start to look like the enlightened and progressive ones, you know there's a problem.
Thanks for this article, Dan!! :-)
You have no more right to pass judgment on them than they have to pass judgment on you, but guess what, you are both doing it. At least they are being polite about it.
Oh interesting, funny, thoughtful, edgy artful stranger, I miss you so much since you have gone. But it has been a long time ago now.
We have every right to pass judgment on them - they're actively trying to deprive women, gays, and non-Christians of their civil rights, and there's nothing polite about that, is there?
I doubt this interesting, funny, thoughtful, edgy artful stranger you miss was ever as homophobic, sexist, and vapid as you'd like it to have been.
I suppose somebody would say that's identical to List of religious organizations, so why bother? Maybe keep that list and add (ha ha ha) to the end.
Just a small minority.
When we stop giving them airtime, perhaps they will suffocate.
In my ethnic studies class 22 years ago, the professor went off plan a little and talked about the comin holiday, mostly the myths surrounding it regarding the pilgrims. Forgive the holes in my synapses of the lecture, it's been many years gone by and a lot of bongwater down the drain.
Seems the pilgrims had one stop in their escape from religious persecution before they came to mooch off the "Indians" and take their land. That notoriously tolerant nation of the Netherlands. They spent a few years there, living alongside other religious groups for their fragile young children to interact with. The ones old enough to walk away did, or at least a few of them did. The puritans did not like this. Freedom from religious persecution was not enough. They needed a homeland, and by golly there was some land available in Massachusetts, unsettled. The puritans did not come here for religious freedom, they came here for religious dominance. And they had it for awhile, and even without explicit dominance, thanks to thanksgiving, they have been given credit for being vital to our cultural heritage as a nation.
I'm inclined to believe that this is what's wrong with the US & A. Even when we are not conservative Christians, we tend to be puritanical in our thoughts. Don't think liberals can be puritanical? Just look at American socialism, 90's indie rock (why was Kurt contain so uncomfortable with his success) and Earth First.
That's why I'm fond of saying "fuck the puritans", because even the best ideas in America get infected with the puritanical thought process!
Sex on demand even when a woman does not want to say yes, but does so because she has been brainwashed to believe that it is the only option is rape. These girls are sold into sexual slavery by Jim Bob so he can have wedding stuff to keep the show going on. By judging their behavior we are saying that it is unacceptable to under-educate, brainwash, and abuse your children into becoming mindless automatons who will have no free will and become the property of other people while producing another generation of abuse victims. Bravo Mr. Savage b/c you had the guts to tell it like it is, not like the lemmings who watch the Duggars and celebrate their abusive lifestyle.
I read this article and I thought of you. I want you to know that I am praying for you and love you very much. You have so much energy and spirit. I've seen you interviewed in your house and noticed all the religious artifacts. God is a hound of heaven and the only one which will fill the restless heart.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/how…
Your sister in Christ!
Dan Savage, I love you to pieces.
And if the Duggars really believe the Bible, then yes they do believe rape victims have shamed their family and either should marry their rapist or get stoned to death. That is what the Good Book says and an increasing number of American Christians are starting to believe that crap. And is the difference between covering your hair and shins and covering yourself neck to bottom of the knee really that much?
@32- "God is a hound of heaven..."
Idolater.
I think it will be very interesting if this is the case and I would be wondering what will cause this phenomenon. It might be natures way (or Gods way, depending on ones beliefs) of ensuring there will not be to many men opposed to women, in order to ensure a men vs women ratio that will be beneficial for reproduction.
No holding hands before engagement? No kissing before marriage (and in their case, possibly not after, either)? That's much more extreme than even Victorian sensibilities. It's far closer to radical Muslim extremism than most hard-core Christians of this century, the last century, or even the century before that.
It's a slur when you say it.
Yes, big difference. Christians generally shun or lecture people who violate a dress code. Muslims stone them to death. Christ stopped the stoning with "He who is without sin...". As for the "good book", you're talking old testament which shouldn't come into play with CHRISTIANS, as he came to sever our ties with the old church. Fanatics like the Duggars cling to old scripture as an excuse to exert control.
How many liberals defending muslems do you want me to find for you?
I met him when I was twenty-one, married him less than a year later. We had our fourth kid when we were 27 and 28, respectively. We are now 43 and 44 and I do love that man. He is the best the best person I know.
BUT I would never EVER recommend my kids do things the same way. We were hella lucky. I'm glad I got out of that culture before I pushed the stupid virginity and courtship stuff on my kids any more than I did. Really glad.
Oh man. My greatest wish in this world is that these asshats have a child who's exactly like my son - as headstrong as they come. Then they'll learn all about how trying to dominate the unsubmissive gets you exactly nowhere.
But then, people like my son (who gets his stubbornness from his mother - her opinion, not always mine) don't exactly *come* from people like the Duggars, because they're all about submitting themselves to their god. My wife, being stubborn and unwilling to submit to *anyone*, left the church before she turned 14. You just don't find people like these in cults like this, because honestly, they'd sooner roast in hell than be told what to do.
I met him when I was twenty-one, married him less than a year later. We had our fourth kid when we were 27 and 28, respectively. We are now 43 and 44 and I do love that man. He is the best the best person I know.
BUT I would never EVER recommend my kids do things the same way. We were hella lucky. I'm glad I got out of that culture before I pushed the stupid virginity and courtship stuff on my kids any more than I did. Really glad.
A case could be made, in fact, that no one who subscribes to an authoritative religion - that kind that lays down specific rules for behaviour - has morals, because they have never had to develop any. They're just following the rules rather than internalizing an ethical sense.
@ 46 Actually, what they often do to a kid like your son is come down on him so hard, so young, that his spirit is broken. And sometimes his body - it's not unknown for a stubborn child in an authoritative/abusive home to be beaten to death.
It should be illegal for parents to be able to abuse their kids like this. To teach them to act against their own self interest as tools of the head of family. And those poor girls. To be raised to treat sex as a chore. To expect it to be bad sometimes. I think if they did that with food and their children developed eating disorders it would be taken seriously. But people seem to enjoy this fucked up talk about men being owed sex. I wonder why. I don't think many guys want to have sex with someone who isn't into them, in reality. Between this crap and Ghomeshi I might be wrong...
I just wanted to say sorry about the mean names you were called because of your thoughts. I hope that we always have a right to openly share how we feel with one another, even if we disagree and better yet that we would seek to understand one another rather than name calling one another.
Some religious people do teach women to submit at all cost to their husbands but the line they are referring to says more........
Ephesians 5:22-33
22 Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body. 24 As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her 26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, 27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 So [also] husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body.
Ideally marriage would be a symbol of Christ love for the church and his people. A love that seeks to serve the other, a love that is kind even when the other is unkind or unlovely, this is agape love.
Unfortunately as Christians we don't always show this ideal model in marriage and sometimes it is quite the opposite!
So husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loved the church, so husbands are called to love their wives to the point of being willing to die for her.
As a strong college educated women, I have to admit when a man is being loving on this deep level, it is easy to submit or seek to be in agreement with one another because I know he has my best interest in mind.
On the research part you quoted....
There might be more to the story about Christians having a higher divorce rate. The majority of Americans claim to be Christians while only a small percentage attend church regularly and seek to pursue their faith on a day to day basis. shaunti feldhahn just wrote a book called : The Good News about Marriage that covers the research that was pertaining to Christians and the high divorce rate. So I am not trying to defend the divorce rate of Christians but just saying there might be more to those numbers. I personally would love to know more about your story and how you came to these conclusions.
Respectfully,
Shannon White
@Gromm: The Duggars have a cure for headstrong children. There is a reason that they control so many children and have them brainwashed so well. It is called abuse. They follow, and even sell the book on their site, To Train Up a Child by Michael and Debi Pearl. This disgusting book is a primer on how to to abuse a child not until they comply but until they comply AND smile, even when beaten within an inch of their lives. In the Duggar/Pearl world a child is sinning if they are not always expressing happiness so children are routinely beaten with plumbing line and/or locked in a closet, often named a prayer closet. They start hitting children as young as 6 weeks old, even crawling off of a designated blanket results in hitting a child, they call this blanket training. Imagine scaring the sh*t out of your children so much that even a tiny baby will no longer crawl, play, or explore lest they get beaten. This is how they break a headstrong child, the same way a person would break a wild horse… through abuse.
~I am someone who has only had sex with my husband. I do not think that waiting for sex is a bad thing, although I think marrying the first weirdo that comes along is. The Duggar children are not waiting for sex, they are so young when they have sex. They are not allowed to wait for the right person, or be alone with them or find out the kind of person they are tied to. The daughters cannot say no, Daddy picks your husband and you pretend to date but you have to marry the guy you wnet out with b/c to do otherwise makes you look like some sort of slutty used wad of gum.
The Duggars do not give their children the benefit of even a basic middle school education. Frankly, their sex lives don’t matter much to me, but purposely isolating and under-educating your children and beating them all in the name of maintaining control over them is beyond disgusting. It is immoral and illegal, yet the Christians who run this country will allow other Christians to perpetrate all levels of sh*t in the name of Jeebus while denying adults in this country basic rights and protections. I sincerely hope that JimBoob and Moochelle Duggar get what they deserve, such as going to prison for serial child abuse.
I wish that Dan had mentioned the Duggar children's lesbian aunt.
http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.…
Would have been nice to know this before I ever trusted stranger dot com enough to be able to click a link
but I guess I need to take responsibility, as it's clearly my fault for assuming that just because slog staff was an advocate for same sex marriage that they would be progressive enough to understand that electronically ass fucking a site visitor is trampling that visitor's rights, that said visitor was asking for it by clicking a link.
After all, once I read around a little it becomes clear, esp from the comments, supporting same sex marriage does not mean the person understands why it's necessary to be able to respect every freedom and liberty of others, esp when said freedoms and liberties are ones you choose to exercise
You here the same old bullshit excuses and rationalizations like " Muslims are evil children raping sub-humans who should not have the freedoms and liberties I have "
The Associated Press was fairly successful in similar propaganda spreading against communism back in the day, so it's understandable they'd bring the full court press against the "new" enemy
Kind of sad how many people fail to think critically and question whether or not the piece of shit people abusing freedom of speech by refusing to not fully disclose the truth or knowingly slanting stories, that possibly the real enemy are those who publish the bullshit "facts" that appear to corroborate the fear that they use to manipulate The People's mind frame
You either believe in personal rights, freedoms, and liberties which entails respecting said rights for others to exercise
or you don't
It is well within a Muslim or Christian's parents rights to raise their children the way they see fit according to how they wish to live
so you can claim every bullshit fear and exaggerated one time event carried out by the rarest extremist, and use that to justify trampling their rights, it only points to your pathetic asses not deserving the liberties rights and freedoms you won't hesitate to abuse
fucking low lifes
(Disclaimer: I don't care if people are pro-life/pro-choice - it's really not my business. But when someone (jessa duggar) uses her "fame" to naively tweet (something along the lines of), "just visited the holocaust memorial in DC with Ben. What a sad place. Reminds me of all the tragic lives lost every day through abortion. Terrible!"....well, I just have shake my head...
“I’m guessing #FuckFirst isn’t one of the rules.”
you call it snarky but it was really more snide. you really ought not "feel" so "confused" about what ensued...
Did she Breast feed 19 children? Frightening thought.
Hope the QuiverPorn business goes well for them.
I believe you're a worthless piece of shit for a human being. The Duggar family affairs should not be your concern. Wether or not they choose not to have premarital see before marriage is non of your business. And for you to critize their morals, you're worth noting. You're right, who would marry a filthy worthless piece of shit like you. Who the hell are you to judge the parents. I believe they've done a wonderful job raising their children that way. They should wait till their wedding night to have intercourse with their beloved husband or wife. I say "NO" they shouldn't Fuck first.
We should be so thankful that TV has brought families like these (and the Honey boo boo or whatever their name is) to a large audience and given them a larger pulpit they could have ever dreamed of. God bless TV and programing that focuses on the lowest common denominator.
I #fuckedfirstmanyandoften. It was the best thing for my life and marriage. I never have the regret of 'what might have been'.
I am sure somewhere in the world there might be someone that is sort of like the irresponsible, manipulative dip shit, the slog author is describing, however the only "duggard" that is we not sure as of this point in time that is a violator of other's rights is the punk ass slogger
everything else is a blatant exaggeration or outright false claim.
or lies by ommission
the verse that Dan left out (after the colon) is something along the lines of
they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.
You know what asshole, I get it, Americans have allowed the control of the abominable church and the Associated Press to use fear and lies to abuse the Constitution and use it for Govt sponsored bigotry toward LGBT and Poly families
that's fucked up, and had people spoken up we could have fixed that injustice much earlier
but just because you realize that was an injustice doesn't mean people will remain silent so idiot sloggers can begin a whole nuther campaign of ignorant justifications to trample a person's or people's right to basic freedoms and liberties
there is no excuse for that type of ignorance
it is straight up denial, and it is dipshit choosing to deny it, that motherfucker knows the truth
Duggards never get headaches
or possibly Duggard Women don't get headaches
and then dipshit goes straight to the tabloid subsidiary work from the Slate
Below is a more descriptive portion of the book's theme from from Library Journal (via Amazon)
"...In the Republic of Gilead, formerly the United States, far-right Schlafly/Falwell-type ideals have been carried to extremes in the monotheocratic government. The resulting society is a feminist's nightmare: women are strictly controlled, unable to have jobs or money and assigned to various classes: the chaste, childless Wives; the housekeeping Marthas; and the reproductive Handmaids, who turn their offspring over to the "morally fit" Wives. The tale is told by Offred (read: "of Fred"), a Handmaid who recalls the past and tells how the chilling society came to be. This powerful, memorable novel is highly recommended for most libraries."
I, quite honestly, have NO IDEA whether I agree with you or not... because I have NO IDEA what you're drolling on about.
@78.
Did your husband come to his wedding night a virgin? Just curious. You never really mentioned. I wasn't a virgin, but my ex-husband was the only person I had been with when we tripped down the aisle. Rather than leading me to nirvana through ignorance (I had no idea what I was missing) I found myself deeply unsatisfied and depressed over our sex life because I had a (1) pretty darn high libido and (2) he was remarkably selfish.
We divorced, i remarried. thank goodness I got a little experience so I knew that the man I married was a generous kind lover.
For every one spouting off about how awesome being a virgin is with marriage, there is just as man who found themselves miserable due to incompatibility.
But truer words were never spoken about them: "But the right wing doesn’t have a problem with the Duggars: They’re the right color, they worship the right God, and they want to impose the right brand of theocracy."
If they were any other color... No TV. No magazine. Nothing. In fact, they would be branded as cultural terrorists or some nonsense.
Please know that there are Christians that are not anti-birth control, not anti-gay & that we are just as taken aback from this family.
Q: Are the Duggars part of the QuiverFull movement?
A: The Duggars write in their second book, A Love That Multiplies: "Even though Wikipedia and some Internet blogs report that we are part of a QuiverFull movement, we are not. We are simply Bible-believing Christians who desire to follow God's Word and apply it to our lives" (page 92).
That was probably written by a PR firm.
Jesus didn't do anything to change the Old Testament rules. He was a good Jew, as far as we can tell. Paul (a guy who claimed to have met Jesus in a vision no one else saw) was the guy who decided Christianity wasn't a Jewish religion.
But none of this really matters, because modern people shouldn't get their moral codes from Middle Eastern religious fanatics of any kind from any age.
You know what, this is not a "fun" fact...this is an incredibly frightening revelation, both for its irresponsibility and because of the implications it poses for spreading an ideology that at its core aims to limit human rights and freedoms. Question: If the Duggars were Muslim instead of Christian, would it still be a "Fun Fact"? Would they have a hit reality TV show?
And you call yourself a Christian?
They expect a girl with no sexual experience to consent to not just having sex with a man of her father's choosing, but to never having the right to say no to sex with a man of her father's choosing. How can she, when she doesn't even know what sex is like and certainly doesn't know what sex with him will be like?
I feel quite sorry for these girls and the young women of the family. They do not have enough life experience and breadth of exposure to make informed decisions, and yet they are pushed into sex slavery. I do not see how that doesn't meet the definition of a cult.
And this isn't about Christianity, since most Christians do not advocate this. And many, many Christians do not take a pro-rape stance. This is about an abusive family using religion as an excuse to hurt people.