Oh lord.

This doesn't make me want to be a twihard, but for the sake of schadenfreude, I may purchase a ticket for a friend to go see it themselves.
Ewwww, Paul's got girl cooties!

Let's give him a wedgie.
Thank you. I mean, sure, Twilight is pretty anti-feminist. But the backlash is way, way worse. As near as I can tell from the guys in my life, they are really disgusted to have girly entertainment be so successful. Why??
Anybody who hates that shit is OK by me, even if it is for all the wrong reasons.
I agree Paul... Bella is not a cock-tease. Fuck, she's willing to die to have sex with Edward! Personally I'd dump the mofo already and hook up with hottie native boy. Wooooof!
My main problem is the emotional dependence and the helpless damsel in distress bullshit. I've only seen the first movie, and only had the plots of the books loosely described to me so maybe i'm getting her character wrong, but hearing her wail about not being able to survive, not having a reason to live without him, being helpless and vulnerable with out a supernatural man's protection... is this what modern teenage girls are aspiring to?
just pointing out that every single person who wants to argue about twilight has actually watched the movie or read the books.

nerds used to be afraid of girls, it was the natural order.

now because of the 2nd wave of internet geek chic, nerds are getting all uppity and becoming like their preppy/jock oppressors.
Massawrym is the token conservative-douchebag reviewer/blogger at AICN...I hate that I know that.
Nah, I'm still not going to side with Twilight. It's not like this is the first time some idiot fanboys have lashed out at women, and picking up Meyer's anti-feminist shit-fest is not going to stick it to them. Reading and supporting *genuinely good* women-friendly fantasy/sci-fi is how to do it.

Yes. "Women-friendly." What's "women's sci-fi/fantasy"? Isn't that just buying into the idea that fanboys are trying to hawk -- gender-based ownership of stories?
Then again the morons at AICN are pretty easy targets. I'm a CHUD man myself.
HA! i heard this exact whingeing from my stepson on monday! his precious Dark Night was threatened! "don't you think the Dark Knight had a really good plot and acting!" no, heath ledger was great, but the rest of the movie was pure cliches, and why did 2-face need to be IN ANOTHER MOVIE? super villian fail.

i told him "you only make real money when women start buying your product - like Frampton Comes Alive. quality has nothing to do with it. let girls have their andrognynous boys and romantic fantasies".
When New Moon nearly unseated The Dark Knight's opening weekend box-office record, the boy-nerds got their fan-panties in a bunch.

Haha! I totally had the same nerd reaction when I saw that it was threatening Dark Knight's position. I think I've been playing too much Arkham Asylem...
People still read AICN or did I go back in time to 2002?
Yeah, whatever happened to disliking something for just being a piece of shit?
I think most guys believe that Twilight: New Moon is better than 2012.

But ...
Pedophile rape fantasy. With side-hugs.

No way that could end badly.
The only thing that threatens me about anything to do with the Twilight books or movies is that conversation about them is clogging up the intertubes.
what do ya expect w/ stupid boy-nerds we have today; the fucking dark night?

bitch please.

they need to remember:

"Mongol General: What is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."
I just love the word "dong".
Oh, men talk like this all over the internet. They fight social expectations that encourage women to be "cock teases" or passive aggressive by being blatantly sexist and throwing around their masculinity.
Are your weenies so teeny

yes...yes, they are.
If they're going to make modern supernatural romance/action movies, there are much better sources out there. Mercy Thomas, early Anita Blake books, etc... The female leads are more empowered, people get killed a lot... It's so much more entertaining.

Later Anita Blake books are Goth/furry porn. We don't need to see that.
I hate it when nerds bum me out. You wanna like them—typically harmless social underdogs, but let them get all ramped-up on Mountain Dew and expensive video card talk, and suddenly you're hearing some Level 1 misogynist bullshit. When I worked for a software company, same as in high school, this happened time and time again.
Without commenting at all on the book, the movie, or these particular nerds--

Paul Constant, are you seriously pulling the "you have a small dick" card? Didn't you once (poorly) write a cover story about being mostly female? Get fucking real, you look like the illegitimate child of Dave Barry and Rainn Wilson.
Unless Massawyrm is saying that Bella wanting to be a non-sexual friend with Jacob is teasing his cock, in which case fuck off, Massawrym.

No no, you fuck off. Because the offensive part of the story, from the nerd-boy perspective, is that she wants a non-sexual friendship with Jacob.

To be clear: chicks who just want to be friends with dudes are cool, and such friendships are possible and healthy. What Bella does is take comfort from a guy she knows is in love with her so that she can feel better about getting trashed by the "hot" guy who totally dumped her for no reason. Now, the story later explains the hot guy's behavior in a way that basically excuses it, and I'll buy the excuse. But prior to that, he was just an overdressed douchebag who dumped her for no reason; she went and found solace with a guy who's in love with her; she allowed him to chase her around for half the book and (in the book) even started considering hooking up with him; then she jammed on him the minute the douchebag came back.

Nerd boys are constantly being told they're "like a brother" by geek divas who will kick the nerd-boys to the curb as soon as their emotionally distant asshole boyfriends come back into the scene. That's the nerd-boy paradigm. Women who do that are dishonest, manipulative and, yes, castrating. Dudes who allow women to do that to them are doormats, but that's another conversation. Women who treat guys who care about them like emotional security blankets are irresponsible and selfish, and deserve to be talked shit about.
@17 ftw.

We all know she gets down with him eventually, and gives up her immortal soul, so it's just a matter of her not wanting to be seen as a slut. It's the whole high school good/bad girl drama crap all over again, which is reinforced constantly by girls attacking other girls over perceived purity and coolness, and it's all a bunch of mind games. That plus the whole outsider crap.
Massawyrm is a jackass. He once wrote a review of Sex and the City that used a rape-metaphor in the headline for a laugh ("Massawyrm Has SEX AND THE CITY And Leaves It Bleeding And Crying On The Mattress!!"), then gets all defensive when another guy from the site (props to Outlaw Vern) calls him on his shit...
The reason behind my disgust with the female-oriented New Moon is the same as with a male-oriented movie like Transformers 2: They're shitty, schlocky, half-assed, over-CGI'd pieces of cinematic currency. I actually thought Twilight was decent and handled with an appealing sweetness of tone, but the minute I saw that stupid trailer (how can a 6-foot-tall, 200-pound man become a 20-foot-tall, 2000-pound wolf?), I knew this franchise had jumped the shark.

Anybody who wants to get their panties in a bunch shouldn't be pissed about the fan reaction to the movie, but rather the studio suits who replaced Catherine Hardwicke--an actual woman who understands actual woman stuff--with Chris Weitz, a nice enough guy last seen butchering "The Golden Compass."

Fight the real enemy, would-be feminists.
@29: "(how can a 6-foot-tall, 200-pound man become a 20-foot-tall, 2000-pound wolf?)"

I dunno ... the same reason a man can change into a WOLF? Come on! It's MAGIC.
Is it sparkle magic? Or is that too twee?
@26 Oh christ. Is this going to turn into a "nice guy" debate/pityfest? Gag me with a spoon.

GIRLS ARE SO MEAN. WAH WAH. Ever had a guy be exceedingly nice to you, but was just leading you on so he could fuck you, leave you, and never talk to you again? Those dishonest, manipulating, irresponsible, selfish dudes that deserve to be talked shit about are called PLAYERS. Their friends give them high fives as gloat about their masculinity proven by their manipulating and objectifying sexual exploits.

So isn't that exactly what Bella is? All the men love her and fall over her and she holds them like putty in her hands to decide whether to keep or to not. Oh? Does that not fit into your paradigm of femininity? That kind of sexual ownership and power is only for the male heroes of your uber masculine action movies and violent video games?
Twilight rules (non ironically)and I'm a big heterosexual male who's almost thirty. It was funny, entertaining, and the wolf scenes were almost intense. Fuck the haters.

You realize that the character you're talking about is a fucking teenager? Whatever those "castrating" bitches have done to you in the past, it's high time you get over it.
@33 "and the wolf scenes were almost intense."

That doesn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement.
Today I learned that if you have a smaller than average penis, you are incapable of having self confidence or humanist values. Thanks, The Stranger.

Oh christ. Is this going to turn into a "nice guy" debate/pityfest? Gag me with a spoon.

That's cute. I'm sure that one impressed the hell out of your classmates in that junior year humanities seminar, but it doesn't really give me much to work with. I'll give it a shot anyway.

The guys you're describing as "players"? Pretty much everyone thinks those guys are douchebags. You talk about their buddies giving them high fives as if that says something meaningful about their status outside douchebag circles. But do most people actually want to be friends with these guys? No. Do most people want to work with them? No. And while there are plenty of women out there who might want to have sex with a guy like that -- because he's physically fit and experienced -- not many of them would bring him home to the family for Thanksgiving. Most of those dudes are vacuous shallow assholes, and the notion that other dudes think the "players" are cool in any way that would translate into genuine status -- a considered desire to associate with the players in a meaningful social or economic exchange -- is a ridiculous straw man promulgated by intellectually lazy Christmas-and-Easter feminists; the kind who like bumperstickers and Sex in the City but don't have time to read a lot of books.

That kind of sexual ownership and power is only for the male heroes of your uber masculine action movies and violent video games?

You seem to be assuming that the fact that some men do something totally douchey somehow makes it less douchey when women do it. But being a fickle slut who preys on people who have low self-esteem in order to feel better about yourself makes you an asshole no matter what kind of genitals you have. Never mind though. Blow me away with another keen insight into my taste in action movies and video games. That one really had me on the run there for a second.
Whatever those "castrating" bitches have done to you in the past, it's high time you get over it.

I know this might be hard for you to get your head around, but it's possible to have a moral judgment about certain kinds of behavior on general principles. It doesn't all have to be personal.
1)shouldn't that read "how can 5' 9", 175 lb, gay muscle twink actors with neglible acting ability turn into 20 foot wolves"?
2)The Dark Knight is ok...entertaining popcorn crap but with enough plot holes to sink the Titanic...saying The Dark Knight is better than New Moon is like comparing a French pastry with a is marginally more superior than the other but both of them are going to end up giving you heart disease and diabetes.
These people are getting their info about how to interact with the opposite sex from Tom Leykis... they believe it is impossible to be just friends with females. So looking at it through that prism, it's perfectly logical that Bella is a dick tease.
@26- It's up to you not to be a doormat. Stop whining.

See @ 38
I hate to admit it, but I got dragged to this suckfest on Sunday. For the most part, the Stranger's review is pretty spot on- Bella is a sad and pathetic example of a heroine (who basically mopes around for the majority of the movie until Edward comes back) and the entire movie is comprised of trite teenage dialogue, save for when the plot gets interesting with the Volturi... or as I call them, the vampire X-men. Sadly, this hint at an interesting plot only lasts for five minutes, then we're back to pointless emo dialogue between Bella, Edward and Jacob. Yawn.
"women's sci-fi/fantasy"? Is it "women's" because it's written by a woman? That's troubling. I suppose that would make Harry Potter "women's" fantasy, and would render all the fanboys of that franchise as emasculated and whiny and terrified as the posters of those comments. And what exactly would that make James Tiptree Jr./Alice Sheldon's sci-fi?

Is it "women's" because it's a vampire bodice ripper novel hazed in sparkles and ridiculous mouth breathing? No, that makes it a badly written romance novel with Mormon undertones that appeals to people who like their monsters declawed and their lovers panties wound up in a permanent twist. (Their magical panties) And that doesn't describe the majority of women I know.

Please don't start drawing gender genre lines with Twilight as your guide--it'll make my head explode.
I havn't seen the movie, or read the book, so why am I writing this post?

If Bella knows that werewolf twink boy is in love with her, and lets him believe she feels the same way to avoid lonliness until vampire twink boy comes back, then she is being unethical and deceptive, and werewolf twink boy has the right to feel wronged. If she tells him that she just wants to be friends, and he still pursues her, then he's in the wrong, but not as wrong. If he knows that she's deceving him, but he still pursues her, they are both in the wrong.
Wasn’t there a Savage Love or a SL Letter of the Day somewhat recently on whether a girl was allowed to be friends with a guy who had a crush on her?

I don’t remember the specifics of the whole Bella/Jacob thing in the book enough to be able to say whether she was justified or not justified in her friendship with him (and I haven’t seen the movies). But, generally, a girl is not a “cocktease” for wanting to be friends with a guy, even if that guy has a crush on her (as long as she doesn’t unfairly take advantage of the situation, of course). As long as everyone’s clear about what’s going on – the guy says something like I want to date you, and the girl says, that’s not going to happen, but I still want to be friends. If the guy can’t handle that, he shouldn’t be friends with the girl (as @41 says, it's up to him to not be a doormat if the situation is a bad one). If he can, fine.

Jesus, it would take me all day to count the number of crushes between my group of friends that occurred at some point during high school – both guys on girls, and girls on guys. Some ended up in relationships, some tried to be friends regardless (some successfully, some not), some crushes withered away because no one ever said anything, and some are still great friends over 10 years later. Unrequited love is practically what being a teenager is all about.

Anyways, I don’t remember thinking that Bella took advantage of Jacob’s crush. It's not like she was like, nope, I'm never going to date him but he's nice to have around until Edward gets back. She was conflicted about what to do, trying to make sense of her feelings, but ultimately wanted to be only friends with him. That seems like pretty typical teenage behavior to me (for both girls and guys).
@37 Yes, because I'm totally advocating that kind of behavior. Right.

I'm not a fan of Twilight and I'm not a fan of what it says to young women, but to complain that it is the nerd-boy paradigm and offensive to you is fucking BULLSHIT. Did you read this article? Do you see as these nerd-boys lay down the misogyny while complaining about the monster misogyny has created? You see, this is the standard operating procedure for nerd-boys: unwilling to question how their hobbies undermine and misrepresent women, but completely willing to mock the women who follow its model or throw a pity party when this model fucks men over. You can't have it both ways.

Bella is acting exactly how young women are told to act by society and the media - be sexually available but not sexually autonomous. These messages are rife though comics, movies, video games, and other male dominated "nerd" media. Women are supporting actors to a hero's masculinity.

But this isn't offensive and nerd-boys don't speak up against it because this is the male playground. Yet Twilight, the fantasy world for women looking for easy gratification, where following the rules of femininity gets the man instead of confusion and powerlessness, is offensive to you. Are only men allowed escapism?

It seems you are all moral judgment and no substance. Hate the behavior but unwilling to examine how nerd-boys perpetuate it.
@42- It's up to people not to be doormats. Stop whining.
@ 37

Yes, because I'm totally advocating that kind of behavior. Right.

Where did I accuse you of advocating it? What I did was to quote you when you described that kind of behavior as "ownership and power," and to respond to that quote on the assumption that you thought "ownership and power" were positive (or at least morally neutral) attributes. If you meant "ownership and power -- but in a bad way", I'm willing to take your word for it, but I think I can be forgiven for not making that inference. In any event, claiming my argument was predicated on you advocating for that behavior is a red herring.

but to complain that it is the nerd-boy paradigm and offensive to you is fucking BULLSHIT

Offensive to me? Again, I guess I need you to quote the part where I said it was offensive, because I don't recall having written that. There's a difference between just having an opinion about something (e.g. making a judgment) and being offended by it. Obviously there's no difference to you but most people aren't you.

You see, this is the standard operating procedure for nerd-boys: unwilling to question how their hobbies undermine and misrepresent women,

Strangers in Paradise: extremely popular comic book, written by a dude, about two women, all about critiquing how comics treat women. Buffy the Vampire Slayer: one of the most popular nerd-boy franchises of all time, composed entirely of Joss Whedon's critique of the passive role of women in horror/sci-fi/fantasy genres. Sarah Connor. The Scream franchise. Road Trip. The list could go on forever. Most of these female characters are profoundly flawed role models for one reason or another, but your premise that there is no dialogue in nerd-boy culture about the issues you're (pretending to be) discussing is patently unfounded.

As for the rest of your post... whatever. Mostly you're criticizing shit I didn't say because it implies stuff you're wrong about.
@49 - It's up to people not to be doormats. Stop whining.

(And thank you, Kersy.)

I think you should read this post about "nice guys." It does a very good job deconstructing that particular myth.


I think you should read this post about "nice guys." It does a very good job deconstructing that particular myth.

@49 Oh wow. A handful of media over the last 15 years with women in them. I guess that proves me wrong, women are totally equally represented in nerd culture. *yawn*

(Road Trip? wtf)

How many movies this year, that weren't chick flicks, had a female lead? What about tv shows? What about video games? Now how many were men?

and yes, you said you were offended.

No no, you fuck off. Because the offensive part of the story, from the nerd-boy perspective, is that she wants a non-sexual friendship with Jacob.

This is why I sarcastically compared her to a player. Where is the offended "nerd-boy perspective" on glorified masculinity? You say that there is dialog because there is a smattering of women (mostly dressed like lara croft) available, but where is the outrage at the gender imbalance male escapism creates? What does this teach young men and young women?

There is none. And you're just another nerd complaining how women do you wrong while complacently objectifying them in games and movies. You even threw in the cliche bad boyfriend in your sob story.

Also, nice on the personal attacks. I guess that's easier than having rational thought out points. And I'm sure you won't have much in response to this except flippant insults.
@50, you realize that would obviate pretty much everything you've ever posted on Slog, right?
@54: You're really grasping at straws there, Judah. Keep flailing, and you might eventually hit on something.
Whine, whine, whine, Judah. Because guys NEVER complain to the nice girls they're friends with about the hot women who lead them on,. screw around on them, and treat them like crap. They NEVER ignore the nice girls in favor of the hot bitch user. They never overlook the perfectly nice girls right in front of them and then complain endlessly about how they can't meet women, or women don't like nice guys like them, wah, wah, wah.

Oh, wait. THEY DO. Problem is, they're so self-involved and convinced it's only the fee-fee's of the menz that count that they refuse to acknowledge that they pull this crap themselves (and project a fair bit).

Grow up.

Another good article on Male nerd outrage at New Moon.
Uh, not-so-breaking news: Men are threatened by chick flicks. Maybe 2 movies come out a year (that's stretching it) that women really latch onto and identify with, and comedians, SNL, bloggers, etc, get their kicks dragging said films through the mud, lambasting everything from the title to the music to the finale. The rule is, if it appeals to women—whether it's a TV show, movie, book or blog—men will try and convince the world that it sucks, it's stupid, it becomes a punchline on SNL. (I'm old enough to remember when Thelma & Louise came out, and men were "jokingly" siding with the rapist in the film).

@58: I dunno, what about stuff that both men and women seem to like pretty equally? House? Dexter? Mad Men? Hell, even Battlestar Galactica (OK, there tend to be more rabid man-fans, but it has a strong record for a sci-fi venture)? Firefly?

I think a lot of nerdo-fanboys rail against certain movies/books/TV shows/etc. for the wrong reasons -- e.g., it's insanely popular among women -- but most of the time, I agree with them in essence. A lot of women like CRAP. I've talked to plenty of women who can't relate to or are baffled by the popularity of Twilight, Sex in the City, most chick flicks, and novels about dating and shopping.

(Maybe I'm the wrong person to talk about this -- I hated Waitress, even though it's a recent example of what is actually considered "good" and legitimately feminist. I thought it had an annoying ending.)

Yes, CAVEAT: Doesn't preclude the fact that a lot of *men* like crap. But I don't see why that means the fanboys are wrong about the shitty stuff that passes for popular entertainment for women.

I'm starting to wonder whether something can really be good if it only draws fans of one sex. Surely if the writing is high enough quality, your penis or vagina wouldn't care if it's been included?
@59- "Surely if the writing is high enough quality, your penis or vagina wouldn't care if it's been included?"

Certainly, if you were really secure about your position in the world. If you felt like your penis wasn't getting you all the attention/rewards you feel ownership of a penis should get you, then you might get threatened by a more vaginally-focused work.
@52 - Paul, thanks for posting that. That was seriously brilliant.
@57 Great article.
@57: Ditto #62. That was really good.
What most of you don't seem to understand, is that teenage girls don't like the movie because of the acting or the story.

We like it because we're hormone-driven, sex-crazed monsters who like seeing taylor lautner in the rain with his shirt off. End of story.
Doesn't Jacob like go all were pedobear with Bella's kid later?
Paul, you speak the truth.
Yeah, fuck you Paul. Bella is a cock tease in the movie. And now you are criticizing how a movie reviewer reviews a movie, giving their point of view. Besides, they are not threatened by New moon vs. Dark Knight. The Dark Knight, will always do better than the Twilight series, in the long run. People will still be buying the dark knight 20 years from now, as with other iconic films. New moon will fade like the fad it is. No matter how good it is doing at the moment. Need I remind anyone how many albums Hanson sold? Or the Backstreet boys? Or how many books R.L. Stine sold, or how big the Teenage mutant Ninja Turtles films were? It's classic fad, not iconic films. And hey, there is nothing wrong with liking a fad. We all are guilty of that at some time. There is nothing wrong with liking Twilight. It's a personal preference. Massawyrm has also publicly decried people like that douche bag with his fake New Moon screening. I hope you've enjoyed the hits this article gets for trashing a film critic giving his opinion of a movie. Because that's all it is. It's certainly not insightful, refreshing or informative.

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