If you want and have kids, good for you. Don't shit on those who choose not to.

If you don't have and don't want kids, good for you. Don't shit on those who do and their children.

The childfree crowd is just as bad as the "mombies" they dread, if not worse. Mombie is at least raising a kid, childfree folks just complain about others' kids and then gloat about how awesome and unselfish they are because they chose not to have kids.

In general, whichever side of this issue you come down on, belittling the opposite side’s choice in an attempt to convince everyone (including you) that your choice is ok is transparent and pathetic.

I hereby declare myself the winner of this shitfight.

You don't care? I don't believe it. You care, because otherwise you wouldn't bother to write this anonymous letter. You wouldn't take the time to judge those without kids, or try to defend your insecurities by attacking others.

Most child free people don't spend their evenings in bars. We spend our evenings, and our lives, doing things we find fun, engaging, or worthwhile. We spend time with friends. We rescue animals. We volunteer. We invest in our jobs. We do home improvement projects. We garden. We support political campaigns. We teach.

I'm glad that you are happy with your choice, but pretty sad that you are so dependent on your kids that you can't imagine a way to live without using them for your emotional fulfillment. I hope they don't let you down. When they do, I hope you are able to discover that procreating isn't the only solution to loneliness.

Well that was tiresome. Why do I get the feeling she has one of those "can I speak to you manager" haircuts?

@5 & @6 Bingo! Dang, that was sad and pathetic. I agree the kids can add so much meaning to your life, they're your heart out walking around on two legs, but don't put so much pressure on them being your end all be all.

I don't drink and I'm pursuing a graduate degree in a STEM field. My research is geared toward improving emergency systems in a way that better serves people with mobility, communication, and mental health issues. My work could very well go on to save your kids' lives, which is the reason I'm willing to devote the majority of my time until forced retirement to it.

My spouse and I have mental illnesses we inherited from our abusive parents. We don't have children because we know we can't provide a healthy environment, and odds are they'd inherit them too. It's a choice I made young, and I've always been happy to be an "auntie" to my close friends' kids instead. Don't judge all of us on the behavior of people that haven't matured enough to just let you live your life. Many of us genuinely do want you and your family to be safe, happy, and successful in life.

I ANON, allow me to quote gentleman Gene Wilder as world class candyman, Willy Wonka to a particularly snotty Veruca Salt:
"We are the music makers. And we are the dreamers of the dreams."

I am a musician. composer, and Gulf War veteran in therapy for PTSD. I survived an abusive marriage to a mentally unhinged nightmare of a man who would have made a TERRIBLE father. Divorce after nine years of hell was the only answer. I have since moved on. So what if I consume alcohol, dark chocolate, tiramisu, pizza, or anything else? You're thrilled to have children, so have them. Don't mombie shit all over those of us who have chosen to remain childless, regardless of our reasons not to conceive. The music I write and play is therapeutic for me and reaches out to people. Maybe one day to you and your children, too.
@4 dritta and @8 creature FOR THE WIN! Bless you both.

Your kids suck and nobody but you likes them. Except you don't like them either because I've seen you, all of you, all parents ever, walking around Target with that look, THAT look, on your faces. That look that reveals how much you envy me (ME personally) because my wife and I get to go Thailand or Iceland or Whereverland during our next vacation. Because we don't have kids.

Also, I get to adopt a rescue parrot soon. Because we don't have kids. So there.

Your children are a problem

Ohh Look at me and my special kids!!!

Please, there is more love in the eyes of an honest drunk, then ever in the boring mediocrity of "normal" family life. Besides, there are way too many people in this world, every kid you have dooms them to a desperate future.

I call BS on this IA. If she really had kids, she wouldn't have time to write pointless bitchy letters. Or maybe she does have kids and she hates having kids and is trying to make herself feel better. As someone who doesn't have kids, her letter strikes me as being terribly sad. Pathetic, even. Now I'm off to enjoy my child-free evening as a well-employed singleton who owns her own place and gets to KEEP ALL THE MONEY and leave it to charity when I die.

@1 - Well done.

BRAVO! My sentiments exactly!

TO CLARIFY: My "Bravo" was directed at beef rallard. Everybody has the right to whatever life they choose - That right does not include criticizing anybody else's life choices. Building yourself up by tearing someone/everyone else down who does not share your opinion doesn't make you right - It makes you an asshole.

I chose not to have children a long time ago because my father had two children who developed serious illnesses, cerebral palsy and MS, and I didn't want to take a chance that I'd pass similar illnesses on to another generation.

But the arguments pro and con, etc. might all be moot because our birth rate is unsustainable, we may soon reach a point where steps have to be taken to reduce the birth rate dramatically to avoid overwhelming the planets' ability to sustain us. We may have to choose to start having fewer children for the sake of their children.

Yes. Because every person that chooses not to have children is doing it so they can drink on a Tuesday night without penalty. What a load of crap. What about those of us who are remaining childfree to become successful in careers that will help you and your kids? Doctors, educators, lawyers? Some of you are passing judgement saying the CF community is worse but it is all the pot calling the kettle black. Saying we are all sad sack drunks with meaningless lives is all a projection of your own insecurities.

You’re not fully grown up until you have kids. Until you do, there’s a huge dimension of being human that you’re missing.

20, oh god, my life is ruined. I have no kids. Oh, the horror.

There are too many people on this planet. We are not that awesome. Bravo to those who choose not to poop out more carbon-spewing, animal-devouring, entitled shithead humans.

Psst, a lot of us old people can afford to go to fancy bars, thanks to all the money we saved by not having kids.

It's easy for me to love children, I don't have to drive them or clean them or directly pay for them or take care of them. I especially love brainy, compassionate teenagers, the men and women of the future who fill me with hope and joy. I'll bet a lot of them decide to avoid becoming biological parents like I did.

Man, IA, it really rubs you the wrong way that you can't still go out drinking, huh?

Yes, @17, @3 ftw.
Thank you.

11

"Because we don't have kids.
Also, I get to adopt a rescue parrot soon.
Because we don't have kids."

You're gonna LOVE that parrot.

@3 beef rallard: So you're declaring yourself the winner of this shitfight by hanging in neutral?
@11 Mikara: Have fun with your parrot. Cool that you rescued it.
@24 JimDeBlasio: Bless you for being so continually spot on, Jim. I agree, and love your posts.
@26 kristofarian: You didn't like my Willy Wonka (1971) quote? I thought it was very fitting.

"We are the music makers. And we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- a childless Willy Wonka, to a very selfish, soon-to-be-Very-blue (for-a-regrettably-short-time) child.

No, auntie gee, that's a wonderful quote.
Was he saying it was possible solely thru childlessness?
.
I thought the beef showed Great Initiative in declaring (rightfully so!) his statement to be the pinnacle of this post. That's a First, for me (to see) and I feel he damn near deserves the Win on boldness alone ... oh, and beef's other point -- you simply live YOUR Life, and let others live theirs -- even if you think they're doing it wrong -- that's the Win, for me. In this case.

I have an emotional support hedgehog.

@3 beef rallard; I concur, and agree with kristofarian--well said, for the much deserved win.
@29 kristofarian: Agreed re beef rallard (@3).
Only one little disagreement, but regarding Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory: It was Violet Beauregarde, the obnoxious gum chewer who became a blueberry. Veruca Salt was the spoiled rich brat who quite fittingly went down the garbage chute.

The best thing anyone who wants to 'save the planet' can do is to have no kids.

I assume of course, that IA's kids are all adopted, right?

@32 briarrose: Thank you. That's among my top reasons out of a thousand for staying childless by choice.
@33 Pijamaradus: Kudos to you and your spouse.

I have 4 kids. It is a tremendous amount of work. I fully salute people who are honest with themselves by saying they don't want kids and then don't have them. I have no respect for people who don't want kids and have them anyway.

@36 My Bumhole Is Tiffany Blue: And I salute you, too--4 kids IS a lot of work. If my beloved parents were still alive they'd attest to that.
I won't bore you or anyone else with a long list, but my two biggest reasons for adamantly remaining childless by choice were:
1.) Biological. I have never liked the process of human pregnancy, labor, childbirth and delivery, and how a woman's body is altered but a man's is not, and
2.) Marital and social. I was pressured ridiculously hard to have kids by a lot of people back in my 20s and 30s. It didn't seem to matter that I was married to an abusive, mentally unhinged tyrant. Divorce, walking away and starting over were my only healthy choices.

No one cares about your kids but you.

38

It don't take no stinkin' Village?

Ever man for hisself?!
or Bust?

Those 'kids' are The Future.

Given the state of world population a lot more people should not be having kids than should be having kids. The Catholic Church pisses me off because they go into impoverished countries and tell the over populated people there to not use birth control and have way too many kids locking their society into deeper poverty. Then those people migrate to better countries, USA

Not everyone is able to have children.

@39 kristofarian: Yes, but what future do they have?
@40 MCGary: Agreed. Catholicism / Extreme right wing fueled world overpopulation is another reason why I am childless.
@41 itsmauve: Thank you for offering yet another excellent reason for not having kids. I am among those who maybe physically could have but chose not to instead. Strongly believing that due to a family history of heart disease / high blood pressure that I would have been a high risk pregnancy (a woman's blood pressure skyrockets during the nine month gestation; mine was already at an unhealthy high level) I kept my foot down against a ton of pressure and childless shaming, largely from my abusive ex, his family, and equally clueless peers. I know I made the right choice. I can't imagine being a child growing up in the Err of Trump.

But in 20 years your kids will be grown and doing their own thing and you’ll be just as lonely but without any friends since you alienated them with posts like this.

I love kids and pretty much hate adults. I want like 10 kids. But I also don’t look down on people that don’t want kids. And most of the childfree people I know don’t sit around at dive bars, they’re traveling the world, learning new languages, following their dreams, and enjoying having furniture that doesn’t have to be kid proofed.

I think what is really sad is when people have no identity, life, dreams, goals, or hobbies outside of being someone’s parent and/or spouse. That is extremely depressing and sad to me.

For someone trying to sound smug, you sound awfully bitter.

It used to be okay to hate your children because you had little conscious control over your own reproduction, sigh....

Jesus, I wouldn't give my kids up for a million years, but I can't imagine being so insecure about being a parent (and whatever issues are floating around), that I would smugly look down on other people for not wanting them. JMFC. Let's work on being happy that we can have a choice either way, shall we?

"I don’t really care how you choose to live your life." That explains why you took the time to write this.

This was on Blogtown PDX's I anonymous months ago. So are the I, Anoymous' just recycled between papers at different times. Seems odd.

Anyway, my comment here is the same as it was there.

Wait, what happened to 'If you don’t want to have kids, that’s cool. I don’t really care how you choose to live your life."

"The sports team from my area is superior to the sports team from your area"

There are some people who are not up to the task of raising children and as such choose not to have them; there is nothing wrong or immoral in that. In fact it would be a very wise decision.

Kids are awesome.

Just to clarify I'm pro-choice all the way to the 18th year.

And frankly being child free and partner free means I can fuck whoever I want to and live however I want to. It's fucking AWESOME!!! What's that? I can't hear you over the total amazingness of my AWESOMENESS!!!

Dear writer. I don't think I'd like you if we met in real life. Hope you don't judge your kids choices like you judge other people's. That will fuck them up.

This entire anonymous screed reads more like a cry for help from a desperate parent who won't admit it, but who sounds like they would very much rather be "going to bars, eating out, traveling whenever" than being stuck at home with their offspring, and who actually misses hanging out with those "sad sack drunks closing down a bar on Tuesday night", but who opted instead for the "deep belly laughs" they derive from their tiny tots - along with, presumably, the incessant crying all-night, being sprayed with urine or up to the wrists in fecal matter or pummeled with flung spoonfuls of pureed vegetables, or being forced to constantly establish and enforce boundaries, or the roughly 18 years of working their ass off to feed, cloth, clean, and educate the spawn of their loins with little-to-no expectation of personal privacy, or even much in the way of tacit acknowledgement of their sacrifice.

That said, I'm not personally against people having kids (I don't have any of my own, but married into a family, although granted, the "children" were already either fully autonomous adults or in their late teens), but I can can read between the lines here as well as the next person. And guess what Anon? 20 years from now there will still be a good dive bar somewhere nearby that will accept you regardless of the number of children you sired who no longer write or call or text or video or telepath or whatever - except when they're broke or need to do 20 loads of laundry on the cheap.

So, please don't worry on that point - we'll even keep a stool warm for you, in case you can't make it that many years before you begrudgingly come to the realization that maybe your life WOULD have been just a tiny bit better with a few more weeknights spent socializing with adults, and a few less spent cleaning up after your mewling and puking progeny.

Who can afford to have kids in Seattle anyway?

It's odd. There was a comment on a recent Savage Love post that said basically the opposite, that having children is basically an awful hell that parents endure out of obligation.

As someone who helped raise his little brother(my mom had him when I was 21) and watching other people who have kids, I can't help but think that unless you are a very specific type of person that it is pretty miserable.

What a bizarre letter. It seems this parent is a bit overwhelmed with her spawn, and is trying to put a happy face on it. Good on you for reproducing ...but don't try to pretend that you have the answers for other folks.

Adding to the planet's population so you can have a tiny version of you is an exercise in ego, not something you should get a merit badge for.

I'm all for adoption, but it's far out of my means and I'm not sure I'd be a good dad. I choose instead to spread my love through my work and to my community.

I'm hoping for a robot to take care of me when I'm old (c'mon technology), and I'm not slightly upset about it. I hope you find peace in your life because clearly something is amiss if you are so bitter. The world is a wide and wonderful place, and the earth would be happier if we stopped breeding for a moment to take care of each other and the ground beneath our feet.

There must be an older, more boring and even more stupid argument we could haul out and thrash around some more, isn't there? Like, oh I don't know, the gold standard or water fluoridation or inherent gender or racial superiority. Ideas, class?

How very binary—you CAN have kids and take trips and go out at night if you plan accordingly.

Kids are a massive decision and not for everyone, why not respect that people who don't want them don't have them. In the meantime, maybe spend less time looking at your friend's Instagram stories.

Also, is it even really a "dive bar" is there's isn't a few resident septuagenarians sipping away at the bar?

Winnicott, D. W. (1949). Hate in the counter-transference. International journal of psycho-analysis, 30, 69-74.

(apologies for dated gender roles and pronouns)

"Let me give some of the reasons why a mother hates her baby, even a boy.
A. The baby is not her own (mental) conception.
B. The baby is not the one of childhood play, father's child, brother's child, etc.
C. The baby is not magically produced.
D. The baby is a danger to her body in pregnancy and at birth.
E. The baby is an interference with her private life, a challenge to preoccupation.
F. To a greater or lesser extent a mother feels that her own mother demands a baby, so that her baby is produced to placate her mother.
G. The baby hurts her nipples even by suckling, which is at first a chewing activity.
H. He is ruthless, treats her as scum, an unpaid servant, a slave.
I. She has to love him, excretions and all, at any rate at the beginning, till he has doubts about himself.
J. He tries to hurt her, periodically bites her, all in love.
K. He shows disillusionment about her.
L. His excited love is cupboard love, so that having got what he wants he throws her away like orange peel.
M. The baby at first must dominate, he must be protected from coincidences, life must unfold at the baby's rate and all this needs his mother's continuous and detailed study. For instance, she must not be anxious when holding him, etc.
N. At first he does not know at all what she does or what she sacrifices for him. Especially he cannot allow for her hate.
O. He is suspicious, refuses her good food, and makes her doubt herself, but eats well with his aunt.
P. After an awful morning with him she goes out, and he smiles at a stranger, who says:
'Isn't he sweet!'
Q. If she fails him at the start she knows he will pay her out for ever.
R. He excites her but frustrates she mustn't eat him or trade in sex with him."

@51: Don't encourage or breed further stupidity.

I suppose one way to get love is to create an affection slave.

Jesus this one triggered the masses. I like how one commenter said "whichever side of this issue you come down on". There's no issue here, folks. Just people being weirdly aggressive about common life decisions.

@58 eeeeee: Amen!

I love my child more than I have ever loved anything or anyone.

I also hate parenting and would rather do almost anything than spend time with the egomaniacal, loud, stinky, expensive, messy (yeah okay, also hilarious and adorable) beings that some people find inexplicably necessary for a fulfilling life.

I am insanely jealous of my child-free friends and all the time, money, sex, and spontaneity they get to enjoy. For the most part, having kids really really sucks, and LW is just making a strenuous (and transparent) attempt to convince themselves otherwise.

I love my child more than I have ever loved anything or anyone.

I also hate parenting and would rather do almost anything than spend time with the egomaniacal, loud, stinky, expensive, messy (yeah okay, also hilarious and adorable) beings that some people find inexplicably necessary for a fulfilling life.

I am insanely jealous of my child-free friends and all the time, money, sex, and spontaneity they get to enjoy. For the most part, having kids really really sucks, and LW is just making a strenuous (and transparent) attempt to convince themselves otherwise.

I was just thinking how nice it is not to have to put a cat through college.

This reads like someone who is unhappy trying to justify why having kids was a good idea. Have kids or don't, who cares.

This was a silly post by someone who was clearly feeling ticked off by a smug, childfree friend. I have two kids and I have friends who don't have kids and it really doesn't matter, either way, as long as we all respect each other's choices. Bottom line is this: have kids or don't, but don't act like a smug asshole. And if someone is a smug asshole toward you, don't return fire and write stupid shit like this. Le sigh.

Was it Plato who said those who can't control their impulses are slaves and those who self-sacrifice and do their duty, free?

Having children is a way of paying it forward to future generations. A way of maintaining a civilization by literally producing more members of it who have both rights and duties. A society that promotes childlessness is promoting suicide, nihilism, and self-destructive hedonism.

Also, white people need to have more kids.

Look. I’m a kid-free person, who thinks kids are great, should be treated with respect (as fellow human beings), and should be provided for as a necessary part of a functioning society (medically, socially, educationally etc.). I have no patience for whiny, childless people angry that kids and parents exist and have unique needs.

BUT. You, Anon, need to grow out of the idea that other people making different choices than you and being happy in those choices is a personal attack on your own choices. People want different things. They find fulfillment in different ways and that’s great. Also, we all will make choices we regret and look back on life and wonder “what if.” You’re not going to be able to avoid that yourself by fantasizing about other people being unhappy in the future.

@74 Are you auditioning for a part in the film adaptation of The Man in the High Castle?

@74: "Also, white people need to have more kids." Lemme guess: are you dateless, pro-Trump, and still living with Mom and Dad? You and your ilk need to remain sterile.

Not everyone should have kids. Remember Andrea Yates? For the younger crowd, Andrea Yates had five children. She also had post-partum psychosis. She drowned all her children in the bathtub one by one. She was found not guilty by reason of insanity and now is spending her life in a mental hospital.

Ooh. Feel the self-doubt, fear of having made the wrong choice and insecurity dripping from every sentence in that rant.