News Dec 4, 2008 at 4:00 am

What West Seattle Drivers Really Think of Cyclists


Why don't we just go all the way and make the speed limit 10mph. Why not ban cars all together? Its the logical conclusion to your argument.

Why is it such a crazy idea that bikes on the street have plates? How do you restrict those riders who fail to obey the laws unless you can take their plates?

Has the city came out with one study showing any bike traffic growth related to these road changes? Nope. Its not in there interest to do that. Its a make work project for the city. Without these changes, 50% of them would not have jobs.

Fact is bikes aren't the problem. Bikes don't cause traffic jams, chew up roads and bridges until they fail requiring multi-million dollar replacements subsidized by non-drivers, kill pets, pedestrians and other drivers and passengers, cause mayhem of all sorts and release toxic effluents which end up in the air and Puget Sound. The police and city policy makers know this because they are the ones who pick up the pieces of our oil-based, SOV-centric transportaion system pretty much every working day. Obeying the rules of the road is essential for everyone on them, including bicyclists. But in terms of the costs involved, law enforcement and city policy should always be directed where the need is greatest; and that's toward mitigating the damage caused by too many cars for this regions greater good.

Hmmm. I have lived in the middle of this argument elsewhere.

I would like to say... that when traffic lacks viable options angry commuters often spill on to side streets and residential arterials endangering more children, pedestrians, and negatively impacts more people across broader areas.

Seattle should make such changes when streets are being rebuilt and revamping traffic flow and speed while improving overall safety and speed of bikes and cars.
I love that people who DRIVE to work ALONE, EVERYDAY don't seem to realize that they are the problem. They also don't realize that if the roads were more friendly for cyclists, then their selfish, single-occupancy commute would actually be less congested. And they can thank all those healthy, eco-friendly cyclists!! Un-fucking-believeable!!!
lol, Nothing brightens my day more then reading things posted by uncompromising bigots:) Before, you can ask the world to change you must first be willing to change. In the same sense unless you are willing to look through the eyes of those you disagree with how how can you expect them to see through yours? yawn. Well I hope you angry kids come to some conclusion... like I would love it if someone who lived in Seattle, who didn't like the way people drove around bicyclist, would go out into the community and give fliers or just talk to people addressing bicyclist and driver needs. I plan on doing just that during my winter break after this quarter and now that I have committed to actually taking action I am not a hypocrite for saying the people who bitch need to get off there asses and go do something proactive and friendly.
Since the SDOT official said "We're not taking a vote here." does that mean that this had already been decided? It would be nice if they provided some statistical evidence to justify their rational for changing the street. They say this will improve the road for bicyclists, well how many bicyclists use that road every day? How many bicycle accidents occur on that road? Can you show any example of where this has been done, and the results for safety and usage? I would like to know if we are doing this for 10 bicyclists or a 1000.The article mentions 23 pedestrians were killed by drivers in Seattle in 3 years. That is .000016 percent of the population per year. Considering how many people I see jaywalk right in front of cars that seems pretty low. That being said, I’m not against pedestrian safety, but can’t all of the pedestrian safety ideas be implemented with the road as it is? If not, then their main argument seems to be that clogging the road will slow down traffic, and that will result in an increase safety. But that’s an assumption, and even if I agree with that assumption I still want to know how much improvement to expect. How many pedestrians are injured on Fauntleroy, and how many people will this project help? Similar projects have been done around the city, so they should have some statistical evidence of usage, and safety. By where I use to live they did something similar a long time ago to 50th Ave NE, and it’s a parking lot. Most of the locals drive through the side streets to avoid it. Is that really increasing safety? Lastly, this decision seems particularly odd since they are increasing capacity to West Seattle by enlarging the Spokane Street Bridge, so why would you reduce capacity on one of the roads that connects to it.
There is a certain segment of people that are driving around town as part of their job. Using a bike is not an option when you are delivering or picking up parts and supplies. Making the roads less efficient will not reduce this segment. It will only tie things up more. How does reducing lanes of traffic help move more of these vehicles? Show me some proof or stats in Seattle where reducing lanes of traffic has increased flow?

Of course, as always, drivers are bitching about their 5 minute nauseance, and how Seattle is so much more bike friendly than other places, and all the bikers should shut the fuck up since they got all they need. How many times, did you bike to work at rush hour traffic, and felt so safe? Its easy for you talk about biking because you are sipping your coffee on your way to work, while I am feeling the cold air in my lungs. Just freaking relax, and leave your house earlier if you are so worried about your commute.
Of course, as always, drivers are bitching about their 5 minute nauseance, and how Seattle is so much more bike friendly than other places, and all the bikers should shut the fuck up since they got all they need. How many times, did you bike to work at rush hour traffic, and felt so safe? Its easy for you talk about biking because you are sipping your coffee on your way to work, while I am feeling the cold air in my lungs. Just freaking relax, and leave your house earlier if you are so worried about your commute.
I used to commute to work by bike but don't anymore because I don't feel safe on the road. That's really frustrating. I love to ride. I miss it. Now I take the bus which, fortunately for me, works out fine since I don't know how to drive.

I believe we desperately need less cars on the road and better public transit so yeah, I'm biased toward the cyclist side. That said, discussions about this issue are exasperating because they devolve into cyclist vs. drivers rants that go nowhere.

It would be nice to read more thoughtful, creative proposals aimed at resolving this conflict. I wonder if that's even possible. I lack the skills to pull it off.

Behavior among some in both groups indicates a disregard for how individual actions affect others coupled w/ an inflated sense of entitlement to engage in those behaviors anyway regardless of the consequences (kind of an American cocktail, this mindset).

People drive while drunk, sleep deprived, and/or chattering on cell phones. They use their cars to act out rage. I've also witnessed cyclists flying out in front of vehicles or riding too close to them. Those cycling leisurely in front of buses can be pretty frustrating. I have no data to indicate which group offends w/ greater frequency, but drivers' capacity to do more damage shouldn't be dismissed.
Many of us are on the roads all day long pulling trailers and driving trucks for delivery. How to you think your appliances got to where they are? I am willing to bet that you didn't haul it their on your Schwinn. Same goes for your roof and your furniture. You have the option of taking a bus but you want us to subsidize your 5 minute exercise program with your own lanes.

If you took off 5 minutes earlier, you could take side streets and leave the roads to those that pay for them and have the sense to not be playing in them.
I guess the real question here is "Why is this news?" More whiny drivers. More self-righteous bicyclists. Who cares? They can both rot. As can every whiny anti-car and anti-bike poster on this board. You're not going to change the world by complaining about drivers or bicyclists. The protests don't work. Critical mass just gets you bad press. Whining at meetings accomplishes nothing. I'm not going to change your mind; you're not going to change mine.

As I told the driver who complained because he decided to swerve across my lane without signaling and felt I didn't stop fast enough "I think you've underestimated how little I care about anything you think."
I'm disabled but work full-time, biking is not an option. Nevertheless, I understand that cars are bad. Single-passenger cars are really bad. And I totally support cycling as valid transportation.

I do want to point out that, like there are both skilled and poor automobile drivers, there is a spectrum of good/responsible cyclists to really crappy ones. My daily route takes me along Dexter and the north end of Lake Union. There are lots of cyclists, and I am careful to watch and defer to them because my car could do such damage.

But. It really pisses me off when (1) cyclists use the two-lane Northlake road rather than B-G trail that is on the other side of the street, and (2) when a cyclist on Dexter going in my direction veers out into traffic to pass another cycle WITHOUT LOOKING. I frequently drive half in the center lane of Dexter when cycle traffic is heavy because the latter is such a frequent occurance. What, do you wankers have a death wish?!

To the rest of you skilled and smart cyclists, good on you and thanks for taking one more car off the road.
I actually live in the west seattle area and I ride the bus 54 through fauntleroy to and from work. In my opinion as someone who actually knows the area, fauntleroy doesnt need a bike lane. Also, I'm not trying to be mean but can someone explain the purpose of a bike lane to me? Why can't bikers use sidewalks?
Oh yeah, I should have pointed out one more thing. Incidents occuring on fauntleroy arn't because of people driving too fast. It's because there arn't enough crosswalks which provokes predestrians to j-walk which in turns causes accidents. So the city lowered the speed limit on fauntleroy to 35mph (which is still fast enough to kill a pedestrian anyways) instead of building more crosswalks.
Hi BusRider: You ask: "Why can't bikers use sidewalks?" See below.

While it's legal for cyclists to ride on the sidewalk, it really pisses people off. Here's an anecdote to illustrate.

I was riding up 15th past Cowen park one Sunday morning, around 7am or so. The sidewalk was empty for several blocks ahead.

I rode onto the sidewalk near that old condo (co-op? who cares) building on the right hand side going toward the U, just before Ravenna. A man came around the corner walking his dog. I was in a narrow patch of sidewalk that he was just approaching. So we'd both fit, I veered to his right (my left), heading toward the wider space he occupied. As I approached him he snarled at me in disgust, yelling: "Get back in the street where you belong!" Kind of sucked.

I did speed up a little so I'd make it to the wider space before he got to my narrower space, so maybe that freaked him out. I won't know since he didn't seem open to casual conversation.

This is not the only hostile incident I've encountered so in the interest of trying to respect other people, I avoid riding on the sidewalk unless I have no choice. As a result, I do bike a lot less, which is a shame.

To be fair, I've nearly been run off the sidewalk by cyclists while running or walking. Seattlelites tend to be reluctant to have any kind of contact w/ strangers, so consequently, they also tend not to issue verbal warnings when they're cycling up behind you. I'm not sure why this is so (I have theories, others have theories, but who knows) but that's been my experience.

Hey Bite me: Seems like you're whining about whining. Does whining on top of whining render the act of whining more constructive? Maybe. Maybe not. But, there's whining, and then there's venting and attempting to define the problem.
p.s. - For what it's worth, the guy in my anecdote (see above post, addressing Bus rider's question) looked young, probably in his twenties. He looked like a hipster, the kind of person most people would stereotype as on the cyclists' side (maybe he was, who knows).
Belgium and Netherlands (densest poulations on earth) have taken out curbs, road signs and painted lines in congested city centers. Drivers instinctively slow down when they realize they have no mindless bobsled run to speed through. Space gets shared. We all own the roads (I sure paid taxes).
Even grown-ups almost get hit on Fauntleroy all the time. It's an obnoxious, unnecessary 4-lane arterial speeding through residential zones, including elementary school zones. Even if bike lanes weren't going in (and I wholeheartedly support the bike lanes!), I'd support one lane in each direction and a turn lane. It'd keep assholes from passing and not looking when you're just trying to get across one of the corners in desperate need of a crosswalk.

I almost got hit on Fauntleroy, walking, *next to the elementary school*, because when someone was nice enough to stop for me, another car passed without looking.

Also, I love the changing landscape of West Seattle. I can't wait for all these people quoted above to give up and move to Magnolia. Too bad I don't live in West Seattle anymore.
To Busrider. Go borrow a bike from a friend and ride it on the sidewalk. Then ride it on a narrow city street. Then ride it on a bike path or bike lane.

You will notice, besides being yelled at by pedestrians to be in the street, that the constant smack in your ass from going over driveways, curbs and unevenly placed cement blocks every three feet gets really old very fast. You will also notice that cars pulling out of said driveways dont see you and hit you.

Then when you are in the street you will hear and feel the roar of cars coming up behind you, and it is a tense scary feeling that you should feel in your car but you dont because you are separated from you environment in a seemingly safer place than on a bicycle. Thankfully they will be going too fast for you to hear them when they yell at you to get on the sidewalk.

Then try riding in a bike lane. Noone (or rather fewer people) yells at you. No constant jarring up and down from driveways and curbs. And it just feels alot better to be away from peds and motorists endangering yourself that much less.

I dont ask people who luge why they dont luge on asphalt instead of on ice, so ya know. Dont criticize cyclists when you dont seem to have any frame of reference.

Oh and to attempt to counter my small minded cyclist versus driver mentality. This issue seems to be about how they are going to change the road to three lanes for driver and pedestrian safety and with the space left over add bike lanes as a bonus. It seems like the Stranger wrote another article about how its cyclists versus the world.

Oh yeah and to the trucker guy. Just because I ride a bike doesnt mean I dont pay for taxes. And if you are talking about your truck vehicle excise tax, your employer who owns the truck and who owns you pays that not you. And your truck tears up the road costing more than the excise tax you pay anyways.

I thoroughly enjoy hearing/reading about traffic slowing down when lane re-allocation happens. The vast majority of Seattle drivers do not know how to appropriately use a central merge lane, that is one problem.

Licensing/registering cyclists? Most bicyclists already have a driver's license. They can & do get tickets for an infractions in Seattle. Bike registration has been done in a couple of US municipalities, it is a joke, for the aforementioned use/wear rationale that cars incur on roadways (should we tax/register joggers for using the sidewalks?).

Automobiles are the issue. They create traffic & slow down HOVs. The time that a bus is made to wait in order to rejoin traffic after picking-up riders is an issue. Public transit/regional options are the only solution for a long term commuting plan. Opinionated drivers should try using a Ride share, drive to a Park & Ride (and enjoy a commute that can include a book as well as coffee!), soon light rail will also be an option, or let alone trying to bike commute (it's not just a commute. It's a trip to the gym at the same time.)

Pollution & oil dependance have no rationale defense, I rest my statement on those points as a bus rider/walker/bike commuter/driver (its a whole plan, everything works to play its part in a master commuting plan).

It is a shame that there is so much spite & resentment on both sides of this issue.
there should not be a ferry unloading in a residential neighborhood. move the vashon car ferry back to the ferry docks downtown....seems logical to me.
vashon resident
People live in West Seattle because it's more affordable than living downtown, so we HAVE to commute. And I'm sorry, adding 7 minutes to your commute every single day (and more in the evening if you reduce it to one lane) IS a lot to ask for three measley bicyclists that could use the sidewalk.
why not tear out the sidewalk and make that a bike/ped lane? just a thought...

i think cars and bikes have equal rights to use the road. the amount of car traffic needs 4 lanes and the bicycles need a safe space too.

as we continue to kill all the animals on the planet with co2 don't you think it is time to find a low impact way to work/live? you don't "HAVE" to do anything. you as a human are always making choices that make an impact.
Vashona: It's good to see someone trying to think of a creative solution, but you can't mix bikes and pedestrians in the same lane unless it's super wide. Greenlake (the inside track) is the best example to illustrate why this doesn't work.

Most of the time on Greenlake's inside trail, you can't really ride a bike because people run, walk, stop for conversation and let their small children roam in the "wheels lane." In a bike lane used by commuters, some of whom are cycling very fast, bike + pedestrian = accidents.

I don't know how to drive, and have no interest in learning. I do think it would help immensely if people could stop driving and wish they would but that's unrealistic, as the comments here indicate. Given how car dependent our society is, it's probably also impossible for some.

The only way to get drivers to consider approving changing a car lane to a bike lane is to offer them other viable options. The only thing I can think of is improved mass transit so they might be willing to ride a train or something instead of drive because it's cheaper and less stressful.
So creating a safer world for cars and peds and cyclists and encouraging the use of transportation options other than single use vehicles at a cost of seven minutes a day (which is a gross overstatement, try an experiment: on a 35mph road drive three miles at 35-40 mph and time it, then like in the middle of the night so you dont piss anybody off drive that same stretch at 20 mph and time it. You will find that you did not add seven minutes to your drive and you will also find in real life that your speed wont be cut in half by cutting from four lanes down to three, and who know maybe a few of the people who drive in front of you every morning will be on their bike or on the bus or in a carpool).

The world does not revolve around you getting home in time to put your dinner in the microwave in time for you to watch jeopardy or whatever else you are doing with those precious 14 minutes that you need so badly at the expense of the health and well being of others.

boo boo hiss hiss.
The fact of the matter is that driving is mandatory for many of us. If I have two kids to drop off and pick up, and job that I need to commute to in a timely manner, then I have no other options!

There is a park and ride about a mile away from me. Great, except like all public transit here in King County, its utterly useless. My normal 18 mile, 30 minute car commute would take TWO HOURS by bus. Or, 1.5 hours on a bike. Sorry, but like most drivers here, we have no real choice.

Oh..and actually, because we have families, and live in the real world, with real jobs, every minute counts. Its bad enough I have to put up with Seattle moron drivers, who can't be bothered to go immediately when the light turns green, or to merge properly using the acceleration lane on the I have to deal with demented bikers who insist on slowing traffic to a crawl to?

Oh..and I've spent a good deal of time in Holland and Belgium. Yes, they are great for bikers...because the entire country is FLAT!, and they have excellent public transit. Here we have hills, and useless transit options. You can't even begin to compare us.
Cycling in Seattle is ridiculously dangerous because of the narrow lanes and insane drivers, not necessarily because of lack of bike lanes. I've lived here for all of six months, but in October I was nearly killed by a car while cycling to school. Unfortunately, this was not the first life-threatening interaction I had had in Seatown as a few months prior I was nearly hit by a truck turning right without a signal.
Both of these incidents were on roads with bike lanes that had previously been four lanes. Until Seattle drivers start paying more attention to what's going on around them, no number of bike lanes will make cycling in the city appreciably safer.
Road bike, $800.

Helmet, gloves, rain gear $95

Getting to be a smug, self-righteous prick that thinks they're singlehandedly saving the world while people forced to commute are a lesser life forms, PRICELESS!
Now I have a question on equality. Should bikers get equal use of the road as drivers. Are biker-matters as important as the drivers?

It'll be interesting to read what you guys come up with.
Hey Proteus: If mass transit options were improved, would you ride it?

It's true that it's impossible for some not to drive. We live in a very car dependent country. Still, I also imagine that some definitions of impossible are questionable.

For what it's worth, I have a real job (9 to 5 and everything), although I don't have children (by choice). I don't know how to drive and don't intend to learn. Your comments, however, do reflect one of the biases that shapes these discussions, that being: if you bus or bike, you're a loser, a bohemian freak or really young, as if a person's mode of transportation is a fashion statement rather than a well reasoned choice.

Your comments also make me wonder about our country's standards for physical fitness, or lack thereof. I'm 42 years old, and by no means super-athletic but I can bike up Seattle hills. I realize that this is not possible for everybody, nor should this necessarily be the standard expectation. But I believe I'm in half decent shape because I walk everywhere and most people my age, in this country, don't.

bikers do get equal rights to the road.

under the legal code they are viewed as equal and separate from pedestrians.

bikers who ride on the middle lane of fifth avenue at 15 mph may be inconsiderate a-holes and endangering their own safety, but legally they can not be touched as long as they arent wearing head phones (a 125 dollar fine for both cyclists and motorists) and have the requisite safety gear on just like motorists (helmets instead of seatbelts, reflective gear at night instead of tail and head lights).

When you see a bike lane, or sharrow (thats the decal in the middle of the road with the pointy things in front of the bicylcle logo) those are courtesies. Even if they arent there bikes are allowed on all roads that cars are allowed on with few exceptions (like most interstates, but there are clearly demarcated signs detailing this distinction).

So yeah. Busrider. Nice try at an intelligent procurement of discussion, but uh.... you failled.

Oh and to the cars are mandatory and I lived in a flat country guy. I live in alki and i work in edmonds. When I drive it takes me an hour to get to work. When I take the bus it takes me an hour and a half. When I combo bike/bus it takes me an hour and fifteen minutes. And when I ride all the way it takes an hour and half. Not a huge difference. If I figured all the money I funneled into my car, if i didnt have one i wouldnt choose to work so much and the time that i 'save' by driving would be more than offset. How about letting your kids take the school bus to school? Driving = never mandatory, just often convenient (in a short sighted sense).
When I lived in Italy, I didn't own a car and instead rode a bicycle everywhere I went.

Children ages 7 and 14 in my city (and I assume elsewhere in Europe) were required to take safe cycling courses offered by the Carabinieri, the police, and took cycling tests to receive a cycling license. When these young riders became young drivers at 18, they had grown up with a mentality of expecting cyclists rather than treating them as an inferior road hazard. As crazy a reputation as Italian drivers have, I felt tremendously safe cycling on some quite rugged roads alone. When I came back to the United States and had a car driver honk at me angrily, it took a while for it to register; it had been that long since I experienced an irate motorist. Beyond that, roads accommodated cyclists' safety and expedited traffic efficiently. Trains made mass transit easy, with usually at least a whole car with hooks in the ceiling devoted solely to bicycle transport. I routinely traversed hundreds of miles in a weekend; not having a car wasn't even a slight impediment. It was wonderful.

Our culture needs to change for this argument to abate. Cyclists need to accept the responsibility that "share the road" goes both ways. Motorists need to expect cyclists rather than fear them. Driver's ed needs to better incorporate non-motorized vehicle safety. The soaring gas prices of this summer and autumn were a boom for the bike industry as people flocked to bike shops to get a more efficient mode of transportation. Thomas Friedman says that $6/gallon gas is the best thing that could happen to this country, and I can't say I disagree.
I'm in a similar situation to Proteus--sans kids. I have no choice but to drive to work--30 miles away to a locale north of seattle. If I took public transit to work, it would take me about 2-3 hrs to get there including the 1 mile walk from the nearest community transit stop to my office. I have gladly used public transportation to work in the past when the commute allowed for it and would gladly use it again if I could get a gig closer to the center of the city in a hosed economy.

Instead of demonizing drivers for using what is in many cases their only option and creating divide and conquer schisms between bikers and drivers, lets get the city, the county and the state to help us get more public transit to west seattle besides express bus routes to downtown. Give us some LIGHT RAIL!
When you live near SW Raymond St and Fauntleroy Way, crossing the street can be live ending. Most people don't yield to pedestrians. This 3-lane configuration may make it easier to cross on foot, but I doubt it.
How many of the cyclists and pedestrians were killed because of their own stupidity. If you bike at night in the rain without lights or reflectors, you deserve to be hit by a buss or a truck. If you are a pedestrian crossing in the middle of the block wearing all black and gray, you deserve to be hot by a car, a truck, a bus, and a bike. Why are drivers always the villain? Seattle's answer to traffic has always been, if we annoy enough drivers maybe they'll take the bus. Well, it hasn't worked for 50 years, and it sure as hell isn't going to work now.
Hey SeattleDRIVER: You ask, most likely rhetorically, 'Why are drivers always the villians?"

Gee, I don't know, do you think it has anything to do w/ the inflated sense of entitlement exemplified by your post?

Yes, all people do stupid, dangerous things, including pedestrians and cyclists.

I'll spell it out though:
Cars are big and go fast, therefore they can do a lot of damage. They also spew toxicity, while bikes and most people don't.
There aren't enough places to bike or walk, or mass transit options accessible to all, for those of us who can't or won't drive, or just don't want to contribute to global climate change by driving all the time (this is not just a fashion statement but a legitimate concern).
We'd like there to be better mass transit and safer places to bike and walk.

That's all. Why is this bad?
To answer..yes, I would gladly take public transit if it was an option. I did so daily, living in NYC, Brussels and Amsterdam. Unfortunately, its not an option.

Want to put your bike on a bus? Fine...but there are only 2-3 bike racks per bus. Not to mention bus service here is useless for many commuting patterns.

Hills can be managed..but not easily. Your commute then becomes a workout..which means you sweat..which means you need showers at work for it to be realistic. And of course, you need the luxury of the requisite 2 hour bike commute in the rain.

Finally, enough with the "tailpipe" emisions and other green BS. Modern cars are ULEV or SULEV (ultra low, or super ultra low emmision vehicles), that produce hundreds of times less pollution of older cars and SUVs. Its no longer an issue. If we cared about it as a society, we would mandate very strict emmision standards, and replacement of old vehicles, like they do in Europe. Nothing we do will really affect global climate change, and nobody seems to want to take the step that will REALLY help:
Switch from coal to nuclear power. A single coal power plant spews more CO2 into the atmosphere than all our cars on the road.

Face it. The car goes along with our society that insists on single family homes, vs the ultra dense urban neighborhoods found in other parts of the world. If bikes are to be a viable option, then you need proper bikes lanes, and public transit. Until then, suck it up, and drive on the side of the road, and prepared to be passed.
fuck bikers they can suck my dick

those green lake gay biker signs a few years ago were the best thing ever
The SDOT really doesn't care what we think. They only hold a community meeting to be able to say they asked for residents input.
Hey Proteus,
Lucky you to have the privilege to live in Brussels and Amsterdam.

True, European towns accomodate bikes better than sprawling American bedroom communities (i.e. where people tend to live a great distance from the places were they work or recreate).

It's important though not to let your privileges go to your head and warp your thinking.

Green BS? Hmm. Yeah, SUVs might do more damage, but all carbon emissions harm the ozone layer. Are you aware that the waste generated by nuclear power plants remains active for several centuries (e.g. from the present day back to Egypt)? Have you considered that oil is a finite resource? Do you know that children in poor areas located near freeways have significantly higher asthma rates, or maybe that doesn't matter to you because you're able to buy a house in a better neighborhood for your children?

Maybe you have the money to insulate your family and yourself. If that's the case, good for you--one less sick child in the world is a beautiful thing--but it looks like you're conveniently turning a blind eye to a reality that some of us are not willing to just "suck up" because we actually give a shit about people and other living things.

I wish I could believe what you believe. I'd sleep better. But I lack your means to insulate myself (both material and philosophical).

Nevermind. Some day there won't be enough money to insulate anyone against the environmental damage we're doing/we've done if we don't stop. I really hope though that's that's not true.
Privilege? Please. Having lived overseas makes one rich all of a sudden? You're obviously pretty clueless about how people live in Europe...standard of living is significantly lower in many countries.

Nuclear power is very clean and efficient, and the waste is manageable. This is why countries like France and Japan get 80% of their power from Nuke plants.

As I said..MODERN cars have very low emmisions. Air pollution in cities is caused mainly by older technology diesel engines, and older cars without modern emission controls. Get rid of those, and you solve your problem.

And finally, the only thing I'm "insulating" myself from is the piss-poor Seattle schools..otherwise, I'd gladly move back downtown.

Please wait...

Comments are closed.

Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.

Add a comment

By posting this comment, you are agreeing to our Terms of Use.