News Aug 5, 2009 at 10:59 am

Comments

1
I have a really hard time being sympathetic to the guy in the shades. He's not a model or anything, but he doesn't look awful - he complains about how women only care about your job, how popular you are, and how you dress, but it's most likely his awful personality keeping them away.
2
Thank you for the link, Dan.

As a woman, I've had to grow up with the societal pressure to look a certain way. In our society the 17-22 year old woman is held up as the ideal of beauty, from her line-less face to her size 0-2 figure. We're expected to be rail thin with a curvy ass and big tits, which is a near impossible expectation as tits are mostly fat. We are expected to ooze sexual desire from our pours, yet if we enjoy sex and have active sex lives were often damned for being whores. Post some pictures from this months SLOG Happy, and you'll find numerous comments about how we women are too fat, too old, too ugly, etc.

It seems that this cycle has turned full circle. We worship superficial youthful beauty, which is costly to maintain, and many women are serving at that alter. Now, some man find us too superficial, are we really surprised about this?

I'm guessing it isn't all that different in your community, Dan. The young line-less, hairless, thin man is likely seen as an ideal of physical beauty, and age is viewed as the enemy.
3
I had no idea that Jabba the Hutt was so lonely. :(
4
"Depressing" hardly begins to describe it. The lack of personal responsibilty and self-reflection leaves thse guys stultifyingly dull.

Also please make sure P Constant fucking sees this motherfucking example of how to fucking use fuck all the time to fucking enhance his fucking expression. (Worked well for this guy...)
5

This guy needs to move out of his Ballard condo to a place where there actually are women.
6
@2: Kim, it's hard for me to even accept that these guys might have a point when they talk about the superficiality of women, mostly because they themselves are so fucking superficial. They see women as objects to which they are entitled, and none of them seem even remotely interested in women who might, you know, be in their league. I'm sure there's a hefty girl out there who might consider dating this hefty ranting guy if he didn't give off the homicidal maniac vibe.

Also, it's easy to feel hopeless when you read troll-y comments and share public space with douchebags, who call great attention to themselves by virtue of their extreme douchery. I think there is a sizable contingent of men - particularly those who are over 30 - who actually do appreciate a woman who looks like a woman and aren't too hung up on the 12-year-old-boy-with-tits standard of beauty. It's just they don't call attention to themselves, on account of not being total fucking douchebags. They're also not obvious about leering, because they have manners.

I think there's hope for humanity after all.
7
Weird weird weird. Rubberneckingly delicious. I want to know more.
8
yeah because there are no lonely women out there. the difference? i've yet to hear of a lonely woman go on a shooting rampage and then blame men. WTF ever!!!!
9
This is where we find the real value of the second amendment. There are no hurt feelings that can't be assuaged through the use of a gun.
10
Maybe that guy should refuckinglax a little fucking bit and stuff like that. Exerfuckingcise is good for refuckinglieving anger and stuff like that and fucking stress.
11
TVDinner,

I have the honor of knowing many men who aren't hung up on a woman's physical beauty. So, I agree.

I was looking at the situation from the point of media/advertisement, and how it has influenced what society sees as ideal beauty.

No worries, I don't feel hopeless at all. I'm at peace in my own skin, laugh-lines and all.
12
Right, @9. Because every gun owner I know (and I know a lot) always grabs a gun and starts shooting the place up when they get dumped.
13
I think a lot of nerdy guys go through a faze where they blame other people for their shyness and lack of confidence. It's a sort of denial one generally grows out of when they realize that girls don't simply fall into ones lap and aren't presents given out to every "good" boy.
14
@2 - I can't view the videos due to the internet filter at work, so I'm just responding to your comments.

I think you're talking about two sides of the same coin. On one side, you're pointing out all of the unfair expectations society hoists on women, but it's naive to think that there isn't a set for men as well. Men are supposed to be successful, buy the nice house, have the great job, lots of money, etc., and have the "arm candy" that you so adeptly described. If you can't get that, there's clearly something deficient about you. Its the male equivalent of not being rail thin. As long as people play this game, its unfair to all the players.

BTW - don't think that impossible physical expectations arent put on men either. Studies have found that men over 5'10 have a much higher chance of being found attractive than those under 5'10. Being tall is the male equivalent of having big tits.
15
TVDinner nailed it.
16
When he mentions the lonely desperate men on internet dating sites, I can't help but wonder if those men are using these tactics: http://whywomenhatemen.blogspot.com/
17
I can't even begin to imagine what this guy'd talk about on a date. "I describe myself as an ugly emotionally deprived unfashionable loser who makes youtube videos about hating pussy as a sole hobby. I won't tell you what I do for a living in case you're a gold digging cheap whore behind that dress. Do you wanna be my girl tonight? But heads up, you're paying for this brunch."
18
"These peacock guys! They bathe sometimes! They change their clothes once in awhile! They shave their heads instead of hiding comb-overs under ball caps! They have the balls to think it helps get them laid! Why can't they just fucking be their selves? What don't you people understand about us? Leave Britney alone! I hurt! Fuck!"
19
@11: I'll see your laugh lines and up you a pair of saggy tits and stretch marks.

You're right to point out the role that advertising plays in our society. What amazes me is how many people have managed to resist being completely subsumed by it. Honestly, I think it speaks well of us as a people.
20
@12 Exactly right. And responsible gun owners should be the first ones to call for more restrictive gun ownership laws so they don't get lumped in with the crazy bastards and criminals who find guns the best way to get even with someone or bend society to their will. I'd be a hell of a lot more sympathetic to NRA types if they put their fucking paranoia about the government away long enough to admit that people who are afraid of guns in the hands of assholes maybe had a point.
21
#6 FTW

As cliche as it sounds, there really is somebody out here for everybody. You have to humble yourself enough to find that person and let them see the real you.

Now, if the real you is an overweight slob who isn't really happy with himself, but acts like he is happy with himself to make it seem like women are idiots, then yeah, you suck at life. Point blank period.
22
I agree -- TVDinner nailed it.

For the most part, no matter what you look like, there's going to be someone who thinks you look good enough to fuck/date. Probably that's not the one person you're fixated on at any given moment as a kind-of-loser guy.

I think the "Tao of Steve" got it right in saying that, basically, as a man you just need to let girls see you be cool or good at something. That isn't guaranteed to get you any particular girl, but if you let 10 girls see you being a cool guy who's not a stalker, probably at least 1 of them will be into you.
23
@ 14:

I didn't mean to indicate that there are no unfair expectations on men. I was talking about the media/advertisement that feeds the expectations. As a woman with a 14 year old daughter, I'm more aware of the expectations thrown on women. We (as a whole society) have bought into these ideal, and have created this cycle.

I personally don't buy into it. I dated humans, men I found kind, compassionate, inteligent and interesting. My husband didn't have to be a certain height, have a certain salary range, etc. He had to be a good man, shared many of the same goal, and willing to work at building a life with me.

I hope you don't get the idea that I'm pointing my finger at any one. I'm just observing the source of all these societal expecations.
24
@ 19,

I have two children, I can still wear my size 2 jeans from when I was 21, but the body beneath them shows the history my husband and I created.
25
@23: Just last night as I was guiltily renewing my subscription to US Magazine, I was suddenly gripped by a horrifying thought: if my baby turns out to be a girl, someday she'll be fourteen like I was once. What will I do to help her learn not to hate herself? What will I do to shield her from an eating disorder? At what point do I have to cancel the gawdamn US Magazine subscription?!

I'm sure you're doing a bang-up job leading her through the wilderness, Kim.
26
@20, you know all those laws that provide for stiffer penalties for crimes committed while using a firearm? Who do you think was behind them?

Anyway, I'm much more afraid of cars in the hands of assholes. As it turns out, they kill more than 10 times as many people a year as guns I the hands of assholes. Where's your outrage about that?
27
@8 You're right, women prefer super glue to guns when exacting revenge.

http://www.komonews.com/news/national/52…
28
So do they go into how it's the FBI and CIA conspiring with women to force these guys to stay lonely? Or is that reserved for other YouTube videos?

@1,

I read some stuff about them on another site. Apparently the not completely objectionable guy has been disowned by the other two because he's finally gone out and started actually meeting women.
29
"It's just they don't call attention to themselves, on account of not being total fucking douchebags. They're also not obvious about leering, because they have manners."

Thanks, TVDinner. I'm turning 24 and I already need to remember this.

Re: your comments @25, those are exactly the reasons why I'm terrified of ever having a daughter.
30
@22: I loved "The Tao of Steve". It's perhaps the only romantic comedy I have ever seen that didn't enrage me.

Aside from that, if Dwayne Holloway didn't want true forced loneliness he shouldn't have joined the priesthood. Bloody Dominican.
31
You would be surprised how many men don't do little things to improve their chances. Like shower before a date. Or brush their teeth before a date. Or just take an interest in the woman as a person and not a piece of meat. The little things do matter guys. And too much cologne is a turn off too.
32
@31,

I consider myself really lucky, because I've heard some horror stories, like of a guy showing up to a date with pit stains on his shirt. *shudder*
33
The looming point that these people are missing is that you can be the most intelligent, kindest, hottest and wonderful person on the planet, and still not find love. There are tons of people out there who are the polar opposite of this fella (or just like him or somewhere inbetween) who "deserve" love but are unlucky in love. It's sad and "unfair" or whatever, but that is reality.

Call it a cliche, but happiness only comes from loving yourself, enjoying your own company and thinking that you are a really cool and beautiful person. Because even if you do find a life partner, you're still going to have to fall back on loving/liking yourself after Mr./Ms. Wonderful gets on your nerves one day, whether it's for an hour or forever.

The anger comes from the unacceptance of reality, from the denial of the present moment. Once these dudes accept that they are alone right now (getting off the internet wouldn't hurt) and enjoy the moment, they might feel differently about blaming others for their unhappiness. I'm cynically guessing they won't, but here's hoping they will. Everyone should be happy.

34
@31

Well, I hope you shot the son-of-a-bitch!
36
@32

Sorry, I meant YOU should have shot the pit stain S.O.B.
37
Hey @12,
I've got a riddle for you: What's the difference between a lonely man crying in his basement, and a lonely man killing three people and wounding 10 in a suburban Pittsburgh gym?

Give up? The answer is right here.
38
In an odd way, I can see where the TFL boys are wrestling with the same pressures that some of the women posting here describe. Being expected to have a decent job is hardly a new thing for single men ("A man in possession of an income must be in want of a wife.") But what is new is that about ten years ago, marketers of clothing and cosmetics and such realized that there was a huge untapped market out there: men. And now, men are confronting the same marketing machine that women have been dealing with for generations.

Not that I am AT ALL defending these schlumpfs, but what I hear in the rant is a lot of resentment not so much directed at women, but at the expectation that men whiten their teeth, have washboard abs, a full head of hair, defy the natural aging process by scrupulous moisturizing, wear $200 jeans, etc.

And yeah, I thought Susan Faludi's book "Stiffed" was a great read.
40
Nice of you to post the link, Gurldoggie, but you didn't need to go to all that trouble. You could have just clicked on my name.
41
Hehehe...smade just made 5280 his bitch.

But...But...But...What about cars?!
42
@36,

'Fraid not. My dates are sensible enough to be appropriately groomed, thank God. I'm describing someone else's experience.
43
@23 "I dated humans" I haven't read something so succinctly true as advice in weeks. I feel like the sort of self-loathing that these TFL guys express and which leads members of both sexes and any sexuality into a life of terrible (or nonexistent) relationships is rooted in the idea that whomever you're attracted to is some sort of adversary rather than a fellow human being. An adversary who has to be conquered through money, power, physical attraction, etc. and who is looking to conquer you in the same way.

It's especially pronounced for heteros because it's easy to look at the other sex and group them all into some sort of gender war conspiracy theory, but I think the feeling that love and attraction is a game or battle to be won leads to a large portion of all the loneliness in the world.
44
I don't have a problem with people venting, ranting and feeling sad and sorry for themselves in a youtube video...that is what youtube is good for! lol But seriously, venting in a video isn't hurting anyone. It IS painful to be alone and lonely for long periods of time, probably because we have evolved to be social animals. I don't think people are meant to live isolated and lonely lives. But, the guy who shot up the fitness center was a sociopath because he killed all those people, not because he was lonely and couldn't get a date (supposedly). Being alone and loneliness is NOT something that people talk about and it isn't something that people take seriously. People say "oh just get out there and meet people" and stuff like that, but for some people loneliness is a serious issue. People can get seriously depressed or worse when they are deprived of social interaction. Anyway, I'm just glad I have my internet friends and my family or I would feel just as lonely...but not lonely enough to kill a room full of people!
45
44 - what you fail to realize is that the attitude of Sodini is REMARKABLY similar to the attitudes of these YouTube venters...and before Sodini shot those people, all he did was keep a blog...plenty of people probably would have said, then, that what he was doing wasn't "hurting anyone."

Considering how common copycat crimes are in these kind of situations, Dan is right to be calling attention to these guys and to this social phenomenon in general.
46
back around 1990 i didn't get laid for a year. i was pretty fucking angry and sad and lonely and women could tell. then i got in moderately reasonable shape, grew my hair out, moved to seattle, pretended to be cool, and pussy started falling from trees. i got way happier fast.
47
ugh. just the title gives away their entitlement "true forced loneliness." true because their loneliness is more intense than anyone else's. because they're oh-so-special and great and deserve to get laid because they fucking say so. no one deserves to be able to have sex. people have to work to create & maintain sexual relationships, but this guy thinks he's above that and women should just give it up. and forced? woe is me, women don't like me because i'm somehow both a chauvinistic egotist AND a self-deprecating whiner. these people don't have redeeming qualities, and need to suck it up and get a hooker. or a bunch of hookers, since i doubt any self-respecting hooker would see these fucks more than once. as for the shooter, that's such an unbelievable tragedy, words fail. people were killed because some asshole thought he deserved something that other people have to make an effort to get. sickening.
48
A whole year!
49
yeah, no shit. thanks for the empathy, @48.
50
devilsmoke @ 43,

I agree, respect is an all important part of being in a relationships. We aren't prey to be hunted, but lovers to be found. Personally, I can't separate the respect and admiration that I have for my partner, from the love I feel for him.
51
Whining "why won't you sleep with me?" is rarely a winning strategy for removing women's panties. And I cannot begin to tell you how many flabby, pasty, ill-groomed men I've seen spending all their time trying to catch the attention of some 20-year-old Heidi Klum lookalike and completely ignoring a lonely lady in the corner who's perfectly nice-looking but not a "hottie", or maybe a few years the other side of 40. They just plain don't see the women who aren't Barbie dolls, and spend their whole lives whining that the Barbies won't have sex with them.

I'm sure women do that to some extent too, but I certainly haven't seen anywhere near as much of that superficial fixation on outward appearance among women. Some men seem to get hung up on it to the point of being utterly outraged that the only women interested in them are their own female equivalents.
52
@51 and yet you're just as hung up on the idea that there really are 'leagues' to which one can belong or be classed out of. Srsly, why can't those barbies just get over these guys' schlubbiness and see them for their inner beauty?

I guess what I'm saying is, there's a better argument you could be making, but you're taking the 'men are pigs' easy route.
53
My two cents. I think these people are in love with the "idea" of a relationship than the actual relationship itself. I think they make some valid points, underneath their hatred and vitrol. I think the love hate switch just flipped when they weren't able to obtain their goal. These are the guys that women write off as "friends", "lurkers", and/or "stalkers". Their willingness to commit, for some strange reason is a turn off.

And yes, after years of not having your dick scratched ... it can drive you mad.

Still, I think I think they are a little short sighted in that, just because you have someone, doesn't mean you are "happy". Some of the most miserable people I have ever met are in relationships (if not most). They just step a little lighter and seem a little happier because they are getting some. It's like their partner is a drug, and they will lie and cheat and whatever to get their fix. (The grass isn't always greener).

Why are men lonely? Two reasons, they don't call it "getting lucky" for no reason. Some people just don't have luck. I think that's the easiest way to describe it. Because for some reason women don't find lonly men attractive, and dwelling on it doesn't really make anyone feel better.

Then again, I'm not seeing to many guys getting any right now anyways. (Well straight guys).

That said, it's hard to take anyone seriously about his singldom who looks like a boated tick.
54
But then there's videos like this one : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVbeBcGzz…

While it's a little depressing to think what this guy went through to get to this point, more so it's extremely unsettling. This man -- genuinely hates women, which is probably why they avoid him, and he's much too narcissistic to see that maybe he has a problem and seek help.
55
@52 - um, because they fully know that they can date "Kens" who equal them in attractiveness. And why aren't you asking why those guys can't see the "inner beauty" in the women who are actually their matches in age and attractiveness?
56
Two things Geni ... I have seen so many physcially repulsive men get above average to hot wommen. I have no clue how this happens.

Nobody has a fricken clue how this happens, but it does. So I can't say that tickman's excuse is his weight ... but it certainly doesn't help.

And Kim, there is something very strange about the courtship of men and women. I was reading about some guy who said that his best relationships are where the woman makes the guy "feel" that they are persuing.

The one thing I just can't stand about courtship, and why I can't take any of it seriously (in the traditional sense). Is that you are supposed to play the numbers. Expose yourself to lots of partners, because women are generally pickier than men. Eventually you'll find a girl that digs you ... etc. etc. etc. Women don't want to persue men, yet they are so much more selective. They are selective over a broad range of traits (god bless them), yet they are so much more selective.

In my world I find that either, I'm doing defensive dating (rejecting women who are pissed off that I rejected them after they left themselves open ... even though they are decade older than me). Or just dialogue through casual encounters, which are a little better. If I play the numbers like these guys have been trying or like successful pick-up artists claim, I find it cheapens momment and totally dehumanizes the people you meet. Which in my opinion is not fun.

But hey, what can I complain about. I almost finished up these god damn work logs! For the state that won't get my money when my rent is due! And the cash I borrowed from my folks, to pay for the lease I can't get out of ... trapped in the vortex of the Seattle mail system.

For some reason, chasing women is just not a priority right now.
57
@52 why not take that route? it's true. men ARE pigs. women ARE shallow whores. it's HUMAN to want that which you are attracted to. men who aren't attracted to "normal" women aren't going to pursue "normal" women. women attracted to "normal" men aren't going to pursue "normal" men. a problem only arises when men, like these, believe they are ENTITLED to these specimens, and entitled to be allowed to have sex with the most attractive women. they see them as commodities. and not in a "sometimes it's sexy" way. in an actual "i should and can have you if i want" kind of way. if people could just accept whoever's around, people would never be concerned about getting laid. it's a rare person that is the ugliest or most awkward et al. in the room. those people can ALL get laid if they have no standards.
58
Hi Former tri-state,

I'll agree, that from my experience there is a need for a woman to know that she is found to be lovely/a beauty, and that her loveliness is being sought. That her loveliness/beauty is desirable. In the same sense, I think men want to be thought of as the hero. I think the problem arises when two people are not of the same emotional health, a person who is a 2 will have trouble attracting a 9 (hypothetical scale being 1-10 with 10 being perfect) and an 8 will have trouble maintaining a relationship with a 3. The same could be said for maturity, intellect and common sense. Which is why mutual respect is so important to maintaining a relationship.

I hear you on the work/money issues. I was in molecular biology in LA. It's hard to make a living in research. I hope the mail system rights itself quickly.

Feel free to disregard all of my above statements. I actually sucked at dating, I'm shy and the hours spent in the lab kept me busy. I did go out, but with individuals who found me attractive at 02:30 and without make up running Western Blots in 4 degree C walk in refrigerators. Science seems to attract very brilliant and shy men (in my experience), that made it easier for shy not very brilliant, but still smart me, to engage with them. I ended up marrying a man who was about to head off to grad school in neural biology. He decided research didn't fit him, and went to grad school in public health and health administration. I left research when our daughter came along.

Anyhow, I like reading your comments. I appreciate hearing your perspectives, and I'm grateful for your time doing research that benifits us all. The sciences are very rewarding, but they are also very dangerous when it comes to the chemicals and radionuclides that need to be used. We all owe you our thanks.

PS Pardon the typos, I just had my pupils dialated and can't focus well. It's a good thing that my high school made me take typing to graduate.
59
I love the Michael Jackson "be yourself" collage he inserts. I hope he is being witty or ironic or something...but I doubt it.
60
Women don't want to persue men, yet they are so much more selective. They are selective over a broad range of traits (god bless them), yet they are so much more selective.


Is this a problem? Call me crazy, but I don't want to be with someone who merely finds me acceptable, I want to be with someone who is actually attracted to me. I think one thing that really puts women off of desperate men is that those men will very obviously take ANYONE. What a compliment.
61
Oh my God. I'd never heard of this whole "forced loneliness" phenomenon. This degree of unbridled misogyny is really frightening. These guys should really be monitored somehow, but how?

By the way, I wonder if gun control would really work in the US? Hasn't the horse already bolted? Gun control works reasonably well over here, but I think that's because we've always had strict laws on guns and there just aren't very many around. Living on an island helps too, making smuggling more difficult. But in a community already swimming in firearms, I wonder if gun laws are really going to achieve anything in a practical rather than symbolic sense. Just asking as an outsider...
62
Thank you Kim, especially in regards to the toxicity.

I'm a synthetic chemist. I was making some pretty narly dies (that fell through though ... maybe I am reaching burn out. I think I'll figure it out after my next job).

I used to joke with the biochemists about the nature of our systems. I used to say to them, you work with chemicals such as ethidium bromide and other various stains that are specifically designed to target and fuck with living organisms PLUS radation. Whereas the stuff I worked with, well ... it's a great mystery ... it might actually be good for me!

I have a hard time dating female scientists simply because I have a hard time coming to grips with that power dynamic. I feel disposable and just like any other guy in the lab, when I really feel I should be regarded as an equal with my own thoughts, desires, and feelings. It wasn't a delibrate attempt by the females I've met in science ... but really ... if they had it there way ... I would be in another miserable LDR marriage separated by hundreds if not thousands of miles.

It seems like you have a great thing going for you. I'm ALMOST ready to hang up the science hat. I want one more job at research and see if its the right setting. I enjoy science, but there are things I'm just not willing to compromise on anymore. Particularly my quality of life outside of lab. Hence why I want to stay in Seattle or a major city. It's too issolating of a career path if you don't have a social network outside of lab.

And the trippiest thing is ... I'm actually a decent looking guy! Most women who do get to know me, are totally surprised by my demeaner, humility, and that they aren't number 2 or 3 on my list. It's amazing what life in the lab is like.

And Kashemi ... I don't think that's a problem for women, but I think it's a problem for men. I don't like it when men just play the numbers and deliver something totally ungenuine to get laid or whatever. For me, I think it cheapens the experience. For men, it most certainly cheapens the people they are with. But can't argue with their results!

Besides, getting a girlfriend and getting laid are almost two different things. You get laid first, then you get the girlfriend or vice versa ...

Now that I think about it, I think these guys think that one comes with the other.

63
oh yeah one more thing, I think this might be relevent to mysogyny and the sense of entitlement felt by some men.

I get this message from my friend who went on a date with an older guy. She said, he was nice ... a gentlemen. Fancy school, attorny, daughter, and going through a divorce. Cancer survivor too. She was like ... cool!

Then she gets a message from the guy wondering she didn't sleep with him after spending 120 dollars on dinner!
64
The following linguistic slight sums up the entire conflict between self-pity and self-empowerment.

"People can get seriously depressed or worse when **they are deprived** of social interaction."

It should really be ""People can get seriously depressed or worse when they **deprive themselves** of social interaction."

(#44)
65
I can sorta understand where at least the fattie in red is coming from. I'm not going to watch the other videos for the sake of keeping myself from feeling depressed for them, but I will admit I can understand where at least this guy is coming from.

People are assholes more often then not. They express interest, have that interest satisfied, and then move on. It's happened to me more times then I care to reflect on, and I'll admit it's made me jaded, but not to the point where I'm not right in the head. Parker Todd has it right in saying, "It should really be ""People can get seriously depressed or worse when they **deprive themselves** of social interaction."", not mingling with people and shutting yourself away never helps anything. It's better to live life not expecting anything from others - less chance of being disappointed at the end of the day.
66
Washing his mouth with some soap, cleaning up his vocabulary and refraining from using the word that refers to coitus in every sentence (that's soo not sexy) and putting down the cheeseburger...LOL) might do the trick.

Potty mouth + grossly overweight + mental case = not attractive = loneliness.

There was a time when both genders took personal responsibility for whatever shortcomings they were experiencing in life but as the gender lines find themselves further under attack and being blurred you find these sort of cases (which were once rare, isolated and dealt with in psychiatric institutions) that lead to the tragic incident like the one in Pittsburgh more and more frequently.

Men regardless of their size knew how to handle themselves, heck some big sized ones were attracative (tho not going for the jubba the hutt best impression like this guy) because they acted like men and because they knew how to distribute their weight in a more appealing way for the opposite sex (via weightlifting and such). Start acting like a man (ask God for guidance if you never had the example in your home), and then you'll see how the loneliness is vanquished to a very distant memory.
67
I just spent half an hour reading and watching more of this TFL stuff. It actually upset me to the point of tears. It horrifies me to think that some of the guys making anonymous comments, comments like this:
"I agree with you that feminism have made most western women bad people not to mention bad mates, but the cream still rises to the top." Could actually be out there, meeting and dating women (who they don't seem to even think of as real people), without the girls ever really knowing that these guys basically hate them and want them to be reduced to serfdom. When people spew such hate about 50% of the population online, it doesn't surprise me in the least that some of them start to dehumanise women to the point that they feel it's ok to go out and shoot/rape them.
And speaking of loneliness, being a self-actualized, sane, confident feminist often doesn't get you laid either, because the same guys who complain about what shallow, vapid whores women are tend to shit in their already unwashed panties when they have to talk to a girl who *isn't* totally superficial (most of us). Go 'fucking' figure.
68
LOL ... loveschild, you almost didn't invoke god on that one.

It's as if one could take responicablity for their own actions.
69
@66 did you just try to make this about the glbtq community? "blurring the lines between genders" caused this? what in the blazing fuck would make you think that? if anything, these rednecks probably lived in normal southern traditional families. take your god and homophobia out of the equation, and you can MAYBE see what really happened here. pathetic psycho shot some people because he can't deal with women. other pathetic psychos feel like he did. END.
70
@67, I totally agree with you. This stuff is horrifying...
71
You know on second thought ... if it really means THAT much to these people.

Dr. Tri-state prescribes

1) a shrink
2) a "professional"
3) another shrink visit (after sex, to see if sex was simply the thing that was affecting these guys moods)
4) Then some female friends that these guys are always hating on.

So effing what if sex doesn't come from the same people who are there for female companionship. Sex will take the edge of the guys, and some female friends will teach these guys some genuine empathy. Hopefully take some of that schitzofrenic edge away (all the women on this planet are here to make me miserable!) And if the female friends are so concerned the big tickman is paying for sex, then they might as well do something about it.

72
@Aussie Steve It's so relieving to hear that coming from an Australian dude, for some reason after reading all those anonymous comments about how all women are worthless (many of them from the +61 region) I started entertaining paranoid fantasies that random boys at gigs are Secret Internet Misogynists. Good to know they could just as easily be Secret Internet Sane People!!
73
69 There's no way to avoid the sins of the father (parents), the lack of proper guidance and gender roles does have its consequences.

"because he can't deal with women"

Exactly, couldn't have said it more simpler myself. The pathology that's brought about from not teaching boys how to grow up into men and act as such in their interactions with women lead precisely to this sort of mental illness in which grown men see themselves victimized by women. Take the man in this video for example, do you really believe that had he had a male role model in his life that would've teach him how to take care of and present himself to women he would be whining in a YouTube video about being lonely? No, he wouldn't. I guarantee you he would be taking care of a wife and kids instead. Lets face it, these days some men more and more are distancing themselves from their masculinity (what makes a man a man) and end up so messed up that they create their own demise and that of those who are unfortunate to be near them.

74
@73 i can't even fathom WHAT you are talking about. father's who aren't typical macho men = homicidal misogynist sons? er...if you say so.
75
@72, "(many of them from the +61 region)" - it just got a whole lot more horrifying!

I suppose I always knew that there was a lot of concealed misogyny out there, and if I'd thought about it long enough I could probably have deduced that at its root would be feelings of chronic insecurity and inadequacy, but to see it bubble to the surface in such a patent and public (albeit with internet anonymity) way in a forum where those feelings and views are given tacit validity by the pernicious support of like minded miscreants, is a horrifying revelation.

Ps. "...self-actualized, sane, confident feminist"s are hotter than hot!
76
I could be claiming to live in forced loneliness-I haven't slept with another person in more than 5 years, haven't had a romantic relationship in a lot longer than that. It really does suck. I'm not a schlump, I have a job, I have friends and things to do away from the computer and I can't meet a guy who will go out with me.
And in the current parlance, since I'm the only constant in this failure, then it's all my fault. I have caused all of the pain and depression I've felt. All of the rejection, all of the years of being ignored. And if only I were somehow a different person then happiness might be possible. And I've tried changing things, only to fail again, in every more painful ways.
Now I'm just glad when I remember not to hope for things to change, because when I do then returning to my regularly scheduled existence hurts even more.
77
Hey Former Tri-State,

Thanks for the reminder. I spent many years working with ethidium bromide and radiation.

I found your comment about the power dynamic interesting, do you think it is because there are often less women in science? Or is it because we often have to be aggressive to be seen seriously (at least that was my experience). I also found it interesting that you felt disposable, because I felt disposable there. I was paid less than my male counterparts, even though we had equal education, and if the grant money didn't come through from NIH I was the first one on the chopping block. All that combined with 60 hour work week, made it easier to walk away.

I hope you find the fit that is right for you. Have you given teaching a thought, if you leave the research? I volunteer and teach 5th grade science to ESL kids at a local school, it isn't anything like the lab, but it is wonderful to help kids become excited by science.
78
Aussie Steve,

You get better all the time.
79
Kim, I felt disposable in relationships

(but really ... everyone kind of feels disposable in science ... like their work is meaningless. You start off feeling that your work might mean something great with respect to science but trivial to your advisor. When in reality, after several years of doing the work, you realize that your work is of great importance to your boss, yet incredibly trivial to science.)

Well, outside of the lab, I was just a guy. I was an attractive, out going guy, but I was just a guy. When you are working 60 plus hours, you don't logistically MEET people. Ironically, the women in Oregon wrote me off as a muscle bound man whore. Hence why I will never go back there again.

With respect to women in the lab. First, we NEED more woman in the lab. It's the only way this field will stop being needlessly competative and more human. To allow scientists curate legitimate relationships, compassion, and empathy is to allow us to be human. Apparently it is to much to ask for in the contemporary scientific community. And it might have to happen when well ... all the truely embittered elites die (E. J. Corey suicides! I'm reffering to you ... apperently Seth Mardar had one too ... ). Yes women feel the need to prove themselves more, but ironically, thanks to affirmative action etc. etc. ... more groups are bending over backwords to include them, and make the work more accomidating. Bravo!

Even at that, there are relatively few women left in research, that it just becomes a simple economics experiment. See which guy has the next best pitch. So inside the lab, in order to date ... I was encouraged to create a person that wasn't myself ... and outside the lab ... I was just another disposable guy. As a result, let's say my bull shit tolerance is nill ... I'm more than happy to expose myself, meet, and experience people. But something really has to happen before I would let myself go for LTR intent on marriage ... but let's try a job first.

As for teaching ... I wouldn't mind teaching college, but I don't want a small town. I don't function well there. I grew up in a dense urban environment, and I enjoy the anonominity of the crowd, and the diverseness of my social network. Especially in my former state, where I found people gathered in small groups to agree amongst themselves all day. And teaching children ... isn't a bit weird to get innoscent children jazzed up on science to prepare them for a lifetime of most likely solitude?
80
A challenge: play any of the TFL videos blindfolded, and ask yourself if you would date them. Oh, for that matter, paste a picture of Brad Pitt onto your monitor, play them and ask the same question.

There is a lot of superficial bullshit that we (humans) have to put up with, and I will continue to be rejected routinely for superficial reasons, but please... If you're blaming someone for being too "superficial" to date you, then why would you want to be with them anyway?
81
BTW, Kim, I don't know you, but you're beautiful, at least superficially. Probably more.
83
Hmmmm...I thought I commented on this earlier, but I must have gotten distracted. There are a number of points to be made here.

First, I agree with so many of the commenters that there is a total lack of self-reflection here. One huge difference between women and men that I can point to easily is the self-reflection that women often indulge in. Granted, not all women, and not all the time, but still. Myself and a number of my friends have lists of requirements for our partners. Over time, those lists have evolved to be more mature and reflective of our actual desires. My list once included a whole host of things, and has now been narrowed to include only what is truly important to me, and in the proper order. There is nothing WRONG with preferring a tall man (I personally prefer men taller than me, but that is not a hard bill to fit at 5 feet 5 inches), so long as one recognizes that is going to come at the expense of other things. No one person is going to be everything to everyone, and I think women do a better job of recognizing that than men.

Second, I really think these men are focusing on the wrong things. This guy goes on and on bitching about how he needs to dress or look a certain way...ummmm...ever tried growing a personality, or learning to show off a personality you might already have? Let me tell you, for years I stayed home a lot and, shocker of all shockers, I did not have many dates. Then, I started going out with my friends, developing my hobbies and interests, and generally having a good time. You know what happened? Within a few weeks, I was out talking and drinking and laughing with my friends, and as soon as I stepped away from the group to get a drink my current boyfriend swooped in and made his move! I SEEMED like I was a fun person to be around and that was ATTRACTIVE! It is most likely that I was not the most physically attractive girl in the bar that night (honestly, I am a little bigger than the average DC intern and have frizzy hair), but having a good time made all the difference! While a cute little size 2 waist and sleek locks might be the ideal of beauty, there are quite a few people out there who are much more interested in someone who is clearly interesting to be with.

Finally, the whole idea of just being who you are is totally bunk if you then have to rely on someone else to complete you. I have a number of married friends who constantly question me now (and even more intensely questioned me when I was single) about how I could possibly be happy unmarried. These people are inevitably unhappy with themselves and their lives. When having a relationship is the most important thing to you, you are clearly not happy with yourself, and that is a huge problem. If you are not happy as you are, then changing yourself is not compromising for someone else, it is simply developing yourself into what you want to be. That will bring you true happiness and allow you to honestly say fuck them when the person you want is not interested.
84
Maybe it's late. Maybe I'm beyond my quota of martinis. Wile E. Quiote, would you please register? Because I'm strangely interested in you, especially since you claim to be "one of those lonely guys". I hate that you're lonely.
85
Hey Former Tri-State,

I'm sorry you had a bad experience here in Oregon.

I'm sorry you felt disposable as well. I don't fathom treating someone like that, I just don't see how a person could be disposable. Is disposable like being a place holder? Where you come to realize that this person is with you, because you keep them from feeling lonely? If it is, then I've been there. I once was crazy for a man, who was only with me because he wanted in my pants. I had too much self respect for that, but it did hurt to learn he didn't care for me as I cared for him or want to work on having a relationship with me. I did have to tell him to go fuck himself, walk away, and forgive him. No, I didn't let him in pants either, but the story worked out in the end. Like I said, I didn't date much.

Teaching at the college level does sound more interesting. My goal with the kids I volunteer with is to get them excited enough to do their homework. Children of migrant workers often have a lot of responsibilities at home, and doing homework often falls to the side. I just want them to develop the love of learning, and to realize that an education can open many doors.
86
You can always ALWAYS count on Kim in Portland to come up with the most ass-lick, adherent, in-agreement comments that stroke the good will of commenters everywhere in every post.

Do you have a defiant thought in your being, you geisha?

87
Michael of the Green,

Thank you for the compliment.
88
Dozen to Play,

Yes, but I find no purpose in being unkind. Thank you for the compliment.
89
88 FTW.
90
Forced loneliness together with asexual behavior are 2 concepts I found hard to adhere. Nobody is forcing to loneliness unless you are to a certain extent a willing "victim" or Robinson Crusoe on a deserted island.And all that blal bla bla about women vapid whores shallow and superficial bimbos, I am well placed to say hat those charcteristics are found also in men also and hence it goes both ways. What is more worrying in my opinion is the expectations the societey is placing and forcing on both sexes. We must adhere to certain standards, to certain beauty, career, rules. Any deviance can easily marginalize us , for example, If I am less than 5'10, I have lesser chance to score, intelligent women are perceived to be controlling etc... the question subsides though at which point inner beauty transcends the palpable beauty , or put it lightly when the abstract transcends the physical?
91
Hey Kim, did you not understand that I called you Dan Savage's/the Slog doormat?

Stockholm Syndrome and all that, I guess.
92
The one thing all of these guys have in common is a complete lack of self-awareness and an inability for introspection. Most people know that if something does not work time and time again then something has to change. Most men who continually strikeout either change themselves or change their expectations about what is possible. These guys don't seem capable of that, and they are completely delusional about their own culpability for their loneliness problem. I would feel pity, but these guys made their own beds on this one.

Too bad for them that there is no such thing as a personality transplant.
93
no ...

honestly ... robwolf and chaya .... I think forced loneliness often comes when people are told the ways to act and be, and then they find that that is the WRONG way to be.

I'm not exactly sure what it is, but when women want a compassionate epathic sensitive guy ... that is only a half truth. The compassionate empathic sensative guy is a BONUS and makes for satisfying long term compatability ... but there is something else to ... something I'm too drunk to describe at the momment.

I think these guys looked at a problem, took some advice, and were sourly dissapointed with the results. And they took it personally. Advice, according to our mentor Dan Savage, is simply advisory and not necessarily meant to be taken as truth or as a command. And of course, advice doesn't work with everyone.

Or maybe being angry on youtube is part of their development process.

There are a zillion fricken cliches at how to live your life, but then you have to practice it and live it. The worst way to live your life is to sit in front of you computer screen at home or at work and brood and wonder why the human experience is so unfullfilling.

Either way, ranting on slog or posting a hate video on youtube, isn't going to solve your problems. But having an incredibly lame and drunken night with your friends is always a step in the positive direction.

And Kim, disposable is where you aren't a place holder (I can almost understand that ... it's caniving ... but at least understandable), but disposable is where you can't keep up with the whims and exptectations of the person you are with without losing sense of self. It wasn't done purposely, the strange thing is ... of all the women who slighted me, it was never meant to do it purposely. It's just economics.

The simple lies like, well I hated living in Oregon and I never found anyone I shared any values with, and then to turn around and say, "Gee Oregon is wonderful, I wish I could raise my children here." When in reality I felt, "OMG these people are all fucking up like my parents did." Or to express interest in marriage, when I know they are going to some part of the county, and I am going elsewhere. And I think I'm being rational in believing that ... gee you are swell for now, but logistics of life is going to bring a shit storm, and I just don't feel like lying to you about it.

Sometimes I felt like the guys that had the most success in my area were the ones that could suspend reality and live a lie ... but even at that ... I don't know, you get the idea.

I don't really why there is a need to lie, it is the FEELING that is important. If the feeling of desire is mutual, it should be embrased and appreciated for what it is independent of life ... but that is the mobile professional's opinion ... and according to some, the emotionally immature opinion.
94
Whoever said the guy in the sunglasses' only problem is attitude is totally right. He could be my boyfriend's doppelganger!!! Well, except for that awful accent. Whew...I got worried when the preview came up.
95
@ 91, do you not understand that you were completely and utterly shut down? Repeating the insult won't change that fact.
96
From what I've seen, Matt, I don't think our friend Dozens has enough mental capacity to understand things like that.
97
@91:

It seems obvious to me that she did, but chose to "turn the other cheek" on your ass. So to speak.

I wish I was that big of a person.
98
Former Tri-State,

Thank you for explaining your perception of disposable. I get what you are saying, and I've been on the receiving end, too. I'm of the opinion that it is important to decide what is personally important, what you can live with and what you can't to stay true to yourself. There does come a time, where we have to decide if you are, to borrow a coined phrase, willing to "pay as the price of admission". I don't think that there is anything wrong with having a good relationship, that you know will only last for a particular stage of life, as long as both parties are honest about it. A relationship doesn't have to end in a commitment til "death do us part", to have been beautiful, healthy, beneficial, and a success. Nor, is it unnatural to hope that every relationship does have the potential to be LTR and seek like minded individuals. Anyhow, that's my $0.02.

Take care.
99
rewind:

... what you are willing .....
100
I cannot tell you how often I see posts (and email messages) in my favorite dating/social networking site from men who whinge: "I'm a nice guy! I do all the right stuff! How come I don't get a woman to fuck??"


And can't you just dig the fact that R. Don Steele is covering his online tracks when it comes to this tragedy?

101
robwolf,

I couldn't agree more. It's like they say on one of the demotivator posters (www.despair.com):

The only common denominator in all your failed relationships is YOU.
102
"It's telling that these guys regard their loneliness as something that's been done to them by society and not something that they might be partly/largely responsible for"Fuck you. This is blaming the victim. I could say gay bashing is the fault of gays for being gay and you'd have my ass. But unpopular men, it's all their own fault. Blaming the victim doesn't exactly back up your argument that society isn't actively working against these guys. It's a big fucking game and some guys have been either born with or given the answers and the others are left to rot. PS I dunno if you know this but the gay guy scene is not at all like the straight guy scene! And i dont see anyone here saying "this is what lonely guys need to do" no, it's much more fun to rag on them and dis them and make them feel like even more shit than they are. Have a little fucking empathy you assholes.

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