I wonder if Katrina Rose felt like her trans issues were addressed after outing someone like this. Her powerlessness made her strike out at the wrong person. Lame.

I like the idea of this Gay, Inc. How do we support their work?

Kat Rose in league with Gary Randall? Oh, stunning. I'm shocked, simply shocked.

Katrina Rose, Ashley Love and the rest of their ilk are a detriment to the trans community and they do NOT speak for us. I denounce this action against my friend Lurleen and am calling them out for endangering someone who has only shown to be nothing but a staunch ally for the trans community. My gloves are off, ladies, and I am sick of you assholes harming my community.

What's Katrina Rose's real name?

Oh, and Katrina understands NOTHING about marriage equality. It most certainly IS a trans issue, as much as it is a gay issue. Just ask the transwoman denied survivor's benefits in Texas. And our allies issues ARE our issues, if we are truly allies.

Getting legally married in January made me even more committed to marriage equality for everyone.

@5, it is Katrina. Don't go there.

How is gay marriage a non-trans issue? If you legally change your sex, that could limit your marriage rights to the wrong half of the population. You'd think more than anyone, transgender people would want gender to be irrelevant for marriage.

Where is the rest of this story? Seems like there is a lot missing, like the other side, what comments she deleted, tons more details. I'm not saying that what you wrote was wrong, just that I got to the end of the article and I don't really feel like I have the whole story. You're not being a Credulous Hack™ are you?

@2

Yeah, are they on the NASDAQ? I think it's a good investment, their stock seems to be rising.

I agree with @8 re: marriage equality being an issue that effects everyone, regardless of gender identity or sexual orientation. The basis of marriage equality is two consenting adults. Period.

It seems that Ms. Rose is upset that organizations such as HRC and ERW supported the ENDA legislation that did not include "gender identity", after it was clear that ENDA could not pass with that language included. The whole "all or nothing" approach, and accusation of capitulation because a group got as much as possible at the time.

Which is unfortunate.

ERW never supported a non-inclusive ENDA.

@13 - I should say "allegedly supported" or "were perceived to have supported by Ms. Rose". Thanks for the clarification!

@Frank Rizzo: I wouldn't have minded a short interview with Katrina Rose in here either. "By outing Lurleen, Katrina, you have made it more difficult for her to report on anti-gay groups activities. So, do you think you're a hero then, you jackass?" Something like that.

LOL, nice slant on the so called facts. Next time do your homework before you post, unless you're trying to write fiction. Lurleen is a blogger/moderator at PHB and DELETED Kathy Padilla's entire profile FOR ASKING IF SHE HAD A PROFESSIONAL INTEREST. That's all. And she posted her picture at PHB and ERW. Not much of a hidden profile. She deleted five years of history from PHB because Kathy asked a question. Kathy has a long history of activism in the GLBT community and simply for questioning if she had a proffessional interest in moving marriage rights ahead of LGBT rights. Gays and lesbians can still be discriminated in many states. This isn't just about trans rights, but the legislative priorities of GayInc. They're more concerned with marriage rights, than employment rights.

You all can joke about GayInc, but where's the story in the GayINC blogs about the transgender bill in Maryland that has the trans blogosphere on fire? Bilerico? No. PHB? No. All InsidersOUT blogs. Coincidence? I think not.

And she banned both Kathy Padilla and Katrina Rose.

Wait - you didn't interview either Katrina Rose, Tom Lang or the person who who had their comments going back years deleted,, the articles they wrote on PHB deleted and all of the comments on threads where that person commented deleted by Laurel?

Hatchet job.

And - how can you out someone who puts her picture and her real name of Laurel Ramseyer on the web saying she's a front page blogger for PHB? And posts her picture on PHB? Yes - she was frightened that her undercover work might be compromised - but she posts her picture and name on blogs. What a pile.

Outed?
Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

@10, I thought the same thing. Dominic, care to respond?

Dear blog commenters full of ignorance:

1. Katrina Rose's real name is ...Katrina Rose. I don't think Katrina is against marriage equality at all.

I know that I'm for marriage equality AFTER employment rights. If we truly are an LGBT community than our legislative priorities in places like NYC and Boston should be GI inclusion in employment non-discrimination legislation before marriage.

And you gays and lesbians that are fired from your job won't have much of a marriage or a family without INCOME.

Cart before horse....

This below the fold comment brought above the fold:
==============================

Wait - you didn't interview either Katrina Rose, Tom Lang or the person who who had their comments going back years deleted,, the articles they wrote on PHB deleted and all of the comments on threads where that person commented deleted by Laurel?

Hatchet job.

And - how can you out someone who puts her picture and her real name of Laurel Ramseyer on the web saying she's a front page blogger for PHB? And posts her picture on PHB? Yes - she was frightened that her undercover work might be compromised - but she posts her picture and name on blogs. What a pile.

Outed?
Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

I meant NY and Mass.

Mzmartipants, you need to calm the fuck down.

Every gain that gays and lesbians have made has positively impacted trans people. Why should we stop our momentum to accomodate the trans foot stamping that the rest of the community isnt caring enough about them?

Talk about throwing the fruity baby out with the tranny bathwater.

I don't appreciate being told where my priorities need to lie. If I were ever fired from a job for being gay, I would take action, but right now the biggest thing taking rights away from me is marriage. That being said, trans discrimination rights are not where they should be, but I am not at the forefront of that because I have no need to be. Not to say I don't support those causes. That's the entire point of this article and conversation:

We need to be supporting each other, not bringing each other down. Wherever the fight is happening. It's for the good of someone or something. By outing Lurleen, her work was compromised. It didn't bring anyone up. It only brought others a step back. GLBT rights will not get anywhere if we can't stop the infighting and one-upmanship of who has more discrimination against them. If we're fighting for equality, these things shouldn't matter.

Katrina Rose did not respond to two requests to comment, except to send an email saying that the article should include information about erasing the person's profile on Pam's House Blend. And the article does that.

@20 -

You seem to be of the belief that the LGBT community should focus on one thing at a time.

I couldn't disagree more.

While you're solely focused on employment discrimination, most activists that I know are going for employment, housing, health care, education, marriage, and other issues that effect our communities.

During this process, we can and are taking what we can get, and continuing to push for more, and this is why we're winning.

getting banned from a website does not give one the right to retaliate by threatening the safety of someone else.

It's funny how lunatics of every political persuasion never just have political opponents; they are always combating a nebulous conspiracy that's out to get them.

Sounds like this Katrina Rose does about as much good for trans rights as Glenn Beck does for the conservative movement.

Oh cut the crap Laurel / "Lurleen". We ain't buying it!

http://knowthyneighbor.blogs.com/home/20…

Your hypocrisy, your neuroses have no place in the world, real or virtual.

For you to argue against the work KnowThyNeighbor.org and WhoSigned.org were doing in Washington State, calling US "carpetbaggers", being the mouthpiece for Josh Friedes while yourself doing double duty under two separate names influencing Massachusetts politics while claiming I should stay out of Washington State is lunacy.

Even the Laurel Ramseyer bio on ERW's website seemed fabricated if not in the least puffed up. I contacted MassEquality, no one has heard of you. For someone who initiated the "Couples Project" no one seems to know who you are. And before you say, "MEQ is all new people..." it's Communications Director was the Editor of BayWindows and even SHE has not heard of you. Arline Isaacson, the chief architect of MA's Marriage Equality Strategy and one who helped push the importance of couples reaching out to legislators in MA, has not heard of you...in ANY of your incarnations...Laurel, Laurel Ramseyer, Lurleen or Lurleen Blogovitch.

You play the victim really well, especially since you deleted 5 years of trans history from PHB. And now comparing LGBT activists to the "anti-gays?????" Playing THAT victim card? Yeah you REALLY learned alot from the Maggie Gallaghers haven't you.

Excuse me. I didn't call you on the phone. However, I did e-mail you twice and provided you with my phone number. I see no incoming calls from 206 that I missed.

Perhaps there is one question I should have asked you directly, namely: Are you intending to do a one-sided, pro-Laurel Ramseyer non-journalistic hack job? I didn't ask it because, deep down, I just presumed that that was what was in the offing. I guess it is nice to know that my intuition is as good as my knowledge of what the term "outing" means. As the Princess Bride fan above points out, clearly you have as little comprehension of its meaning as Ms. Ramseyer and her defenders seem to have. You can't be outed if you're out.

The link to KnowThyNeighbor about "Lurleen"
http://knowthyneighbor.blogs.com/home/20…

@25

Dominic,
I'm not doubting your facts, but you might have put that in the article. I have no idea what the real facts of this story are, it just seems very one sided the way that it is written. It seems like "Lurleen" gave you some info and you printed it almost verbatim. I find that hard to swallow when every time a mainstream reporter does that on a drug war story, slog calls them out as a "stupid fucking credulous hack." I think you guys are absolutely right to do that and call out reporters. Just expect the same treatment if you print a story that reads as being so one sided. A simple, "Katrina Rose declined to comment on this story," would be a lot better than the no mention at all that you went with.

Again - from below the fold:
::::::::::::::;;;;:

31
Excuse me. I didn't call you on the phone. However, I did e-mail you twice and provided you with my phone number. I see no incoming calls from 206 that I missed.

Perhaps there is one question I should have asked you directly, namely: Are you intending to do a one-sided, pro-Laurel Ramseyer non-journalistic hack job? I didn't ask it because, deep down, I just presumed that that was what was in the offing. I guess it is nice to know that my intuition is as good as my knowledge of what the term "outing" means. As the Princess Bride fan above points out, clearly you have as little comprehension of its meaning as Ms. Ramseyer and her defenders seem to have. You can't be outed if you're out.
Posted by KatrinaRose on February 23, 2011 at 2:33 PM · Report

@33

Frank,
I didn't decline to comment. I expressed reservations, asked questions, and provided Mr. Holden with my phone number.

I was heretofore unfamiliar with what appears to be a popular phrase at The Stranger, "credulous hack." I presume that the only good to come of this hackjob story will be my becoming familiar with that term.

Dominic, you certainly didn't email me to give you a comment. If your search Laurel Ramseyer, it is the KTN blog that will live for eternity "outing" that who outed herself. But more importantly my blog states for the record what my gripe with Lurleen was during WA's Ref 71 and Doe v Reed. Let alone what she did to Kathleen Padilla's comments on trans issues.

"Lurleen" aka "Lurleen Blogovitch" aka "Laurel" aka "Laurel Ramseyer" needs to pick one and stick with it. If she combats me for getting involved in WA politics, which btw is Equality and should know no state boundaries, then she needs to stay out of MA politics and remove herself from our most influential progressive blog here BlueMassGroup.com. She told me once I need to "debate on the merits" yet I find it odd that request as she herself was doing double duty. And THAT needed to be exposed.

BTW - If anyone is interested in seeing what actually transpired (I know...facts are so unfashionable in a FOX world; I mean, "Every gain that gays and lesbians have made has positively impacted trans people"? That might as well have come from Glenn Beck's ass - or gay legal philosophy from Maryland, ca. 2001), how about actually reading the ENDABlog posts in question?

http://endablog.wordpress.com/2011/01/01…

http://endablog.wordpress.com/2011/01/04…

http://endablog.wordpress.com/2011/01/11…

http://endablog.wordpress.com/2011/01/17…

Hey look! The crazy theater/burlesque/Trans community might be a big conspiracy. I think it is, so that means someone else probably does to! CONFIRMED CONSPIRACY.

Also NEVER FORGET that there are plenty stupid, stupid, stupid GLBTQ peeps. I forgot that until a racist gay psycho tried to get me fired by claiming that my work was in a conspiracy with Obama to make him look bad.

The common thread is conspiracy, If you notice, your stupid friends are always finding conspiracies everywhere because they TUNE OUT the relevant information and assume it was withheld from them, as one would assume many things are.

Why does she need to be anonymous to begin with? Investigative journalists do the same thing, and their names are out there. "Theoretical", obviously, isn't my name, but I am a good 'ole blogger, I use my real name, and you can easily find me. I don't buy the argument that special work means that she needed to be anonymous.

@ Theoretical, because Lurleen/Laurel Ramseyer wants us to think that she is more important than she is. Since Lurleen already crossed the line and compared us to the anti-gays, I will go there too. KnowThyNeighbor operated a blog with our initiative back in 2005 to now. The anti-gays LOVED to hide behind pseudonyms in order to intimidate. Others being antis or not use anonymity to create the air that they were at a particular event or actually know a person that we are debating or have a closer connection to the subject or situation at hand. Readers may be thinking me callous to call Lurleen out on her "neuroses" but that is what they are. There are clinical definitions for all of this.

Bottom line, Lurleen posted pics of herself on Facebook and tagged them Lurleen Blogovitch. They were the photos from an ERW function in Washington. Her similar pic is on her ERW bio in which it was described that her partner is not an American citizen and named her and the bio said that Lurleen or Laurel Ramseyer will be working on immigration rights for lgbt. When she was "outed" that part of her bio was removed from ERW's site. Then Autumn Sandeen at PHB does an audio blog that Lurleen is involved in a legal case with Doe v Reed and is doing undercover work at anti-gay organizations...Seriously I do not make these things up. It is all self aggrandizement and fantasyland.

@ Tom

Clearly, because you have a grasp of the actual facts, you must be a conspiracy nut.

Oh wait...you're also anti-gay.

And, oh wait...you also slaughtered the Easter Bunny, fed its paw tips to the wolverines and then ate the rest yourself after smothering it with Famous Dave's BBQ sauce..........right?

Deleting internet history is not a valid reason for putting someone in danger. Regardless of how 'valid' the perceived biases are.

Jesus fuck people. Step outside your political shit fest for a few seconds and come back to sanity.

SHITSTORM IMMINENT.
Everyone calm the fuck down. Especially all the outraged transchmexuals; we're all on the same side here.

@44: Good luck with that. Half the thread is now from brand-new registered posters who appear to have showed up for the express purpose of continuing a fight they started somewhere else. Hell hath no fury like a transsexual who thinks he or she has been scorned. May as well just lock it down now.

Please realize that neither Katrina nor her little friend speak for the trans community, especially locally, who has been able to witness first-hand what the "Gay, Inc." tool known as Lurleen Blogovitch has done for us.

Katrina, she now uses Lurleen for publication. I would think you of all people would understand the right to be called by a name you get to choose yourself, regardless of the reason.

As I already told you privately, your tactics absolutely disgust me and you are a danger to the trans community.

Oh, this is hilarious. Please keep it going guyals! You have all be GREVIOUSLY WRONGED and this is the PERFECT place to correct it and to elaborate on the conspiracies that abound.

Hey trans activists, antagonizing your allies by making hysterical accusations against them does not help your cause. Gently suggesting that marriage equality alone isn't enough, employment discrimination needs to be addressed too, and politely pressuring for that issue is fine - but saying that employment discrimination is OMG SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT and OMG YOU'RE BEING CLASSIST/TRANSPHOBIC/WHATEVER for focusing on marriage equality is counterproductive and hurts your relationship with your closest allies. There is no reason to be a jerk about a disagreement regarding priorities. Be a friend and you will get much farther - remember the old saw about honey and salt?

@Katrina, et al:

Please do not mistake my criticism of Dominic's article with any form of agreement with you.

As the person who had all of her articles and comments permanently deleted by Laurel, I can say that I was never contacted by Dominic either. Nor did I ever out Laurel, I asked if she had a conflict. She did.

Articles of mine deleted included some original research on trans political and social history that included the first lgbt advocacy in the US back in 1882, transgender issues at the 1972 Presidential Convention, how sodomy laws were turned from a felony with 50 year as a possible sentence to a much lesser crime by a trans person in 1959 in North Carolina (who – like many trans people in these stories were erased from history– irony intended), pictures from the Dewey’s Lunch Counter Demonstration in 1965 & a copy of the actual flyer handed out at the demo.

It seems just as well I wasn't contacted; the evidence here indicates he had no interest in writing a fair article. He knew what he thought going in, he knew the person he was writing about and admired her – she often quoted his articles in her Lurleen persona – he clearly wasn’t the right person to be writing this piece. Logrolling – no – not of the lumberjack variety. She also quoted Laurel in her Lurleen persona.

I prefer to speak in more receptive venues in any case. If people wish to find my opinion on this issue – I was interviewed on TransFM a few weeks back – you can listen in here:

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/12058735

As Dom notes – when Lurleen/Laurel is writing online pushing for issues– she is affecting change – he recognizes that that is her purpose and that she actually has an effect. When she was writing online trying to affect change in the above case she was arguing that marriage for lgb people in states that already have glb employment & public accommodation nondiscrimination laws - but - where trans people do not enjoy those protections – is more important than trans peoples being included in those nondiscrimination rights she enjoys.

And she was effecting that change on me and mine. We could wait 20 years to get those rights lgb people already had as far as she was concerned. But – she supported trans peoples rights. She worked towards the same end in Massachusetts. Where – 20 years later – gay people have those rights, have marriage, and out of state gay people have those rights. But – trans people don’t. She wants us to accept that state of affairs. And as Dom notes - she outs people who interfere with her getting her rights.

I disagree with that - she actually said that she would feel differently if she didn’t already enjoy those other protections. But – she still felt that she had to place our rights on hold for her right to get married. I agree with Dom that she was effecting change – the change was my continued disenfranchisement. She got hers & tough luck for us…..but she supports trans peoples rights. Just after she gets hers. She’s slightly mellowed on that in the interim – but – let’s be clear. What she’s advocating and what she worked for in MA – is not what you folks did in Washington. You included everyone before going for relationship rights.

I’m glad she moved to Washington after you finished that other work.

Well, Tom.
the MORE the part of the trans community that you fit into charges into the gay and lesbian part of the community with your swords drawn, the less likely you are to win allies. I would go so far as to say you are winning enemies instead.

You went from outing homophobic petition signers to wreaking havoc on someone who works for marriage equality in Washington?
What kind of weird priorities do you have, dude?

As to Pam's, that site has jumped the shark a while ago when I go to read it and it is all trans affliction all the time. Not worth reading anymore as it doesnt seem to care about anything but trans issues. And I bet Pam is scared to tell you kids to simmer down, as you will out her as some transphobe for having opinions about you taking over her website and ruining her reputation as a legit source of GLBT information.

I think this whole thing is a pretty good example of what happens when you 'win' an argument on the internet.

Oh, and Tom? I think you're the last person in the world who should be accusing somebody of being neurotic. Take a damn pill.

I've met and worked with Laurel and have found her to be a strong supporter of queer rights, with a definite mind for inclusion. I'm proud to know her and appreciate her years of service toward social justice.

The "conflict of interest" aspect is hilarious, especially if you've known any professionals at all. Oh no, she's communicating an opinion and she's the communications director, holy fuck. Nevermind that she's separated out her personal opinion from her professional, oh no.

And you figured her out? Gasp. If you volunteered for any amount of time you'd know who she was right off the bat. Using shitty tactics to flesh out a grudge and then running off to tell a major anti-gay bigot about it? Ohhhh, classy. Very classy. And funny.

Tom Lang's involvement here is especially laughable, considering that while Laurel acts in a personal online activist capacity, Tom made an actual attempt at a political maneuver. How did that work out, Tom? What's that? Those signatures are blocked for years to come?

As far as Kat's frequent red herring of MDS, let's just remember that it's no different from equating marriage equality with the collapse of the institution of marriage.

I don't know Katrina (though I know people like her), but I can say Tom's just pissed because "Gay Inc" stole his chance to be famous. Turns out he had and continues to have a bad idea, refused to recognize what the potential negative consequences were/are, the organized LGBT movement here in Washington called him on it and stopped him, and now he's got an axe to grind. I think it's interesting that the "Gay Inc." he's so convinced don't know what they're doing is the same group of people who successfully ran and won the Approve 71 campaign. I was proud to be a part of that group of people, and I'm proud to call Laurel a friend.

It amazes me that once again those in WA who claim to be against the non disclosure of names of signers of Ref 71 cannot themselves hfind the courage to post their own names. In MA, I had the Caucus and ACLU behind the KTN effort in 2005, and in Doe v Reed the amici on my behalf came from pretty much ever lbgt legal group, academics and AG's offices. Sorry that Josh Friedes was too short sighted to understand what happened in MA helped WA's effort.

It really doesn't matter who you are or who Lurleen claims to be tomorrow, we will be posting Ref 71 signers in a searchable format and will be so also for any future anti lgbt referendum in WA state in the future, which btw will include ant efforts to hurt trans people also.

Regarding becoming "famous" ...you gotta love that comment. History has a funny way of working itself out.

@57 "And you figured her out? Gasp. If you volunteered for any amount of time you'd know who she was right off the bat."

Posted by Baconcat on February 23, 2011 at 5:27 PM · Report
========================================

Well - yes - that IS the point people are making. She couldn't have been outed (which is only the title & subject of this article - that she was outed) because she outed herself.

The other, more important point is that she - even though you say she wasn't outed - abused her authority to stifle political views of people she disagreed with. To further her rights over others who didn't have rights she already enjoyed.

Seriously, is that so hard to understand?

Considering GID is a mental illness, and considering that those exhibiting it are 'treated' by cutting them apart to make them superficially resemble the opposite gender rather than by addressing their mental health issues, and considering that mental illnesses are generally comorbid with other mental health issues, it is totally unsurprising to see transgendered people acting out like this. They are mentally ill, and treating them appropriately is forbidden for political reasons.

Gracious. I had no idea there were still so many dourly serious, shrilly political, conspiracy-convinced, "I'm looking for a fight and you're it" types in the LGBT community anymore. It makes me feel like it's 1978 again. Thanks.

@62: Well, Doc, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Clearly the proper treatment for gender identity disorder is an subcutaneous injection of 5 cc's of SHUT THE FUCK UP followed by an intravenous drip of GET THE FUCK OUT OF SLOG.

@60: Well, the larger point is that if you actually got to know her you wouldn't be so vile. Attempting to make a real-world connection versus cloak-and-dagger games of making a big reveal to bigots is far more honorable.

And "she abused her authority"? Oh, wither little rose, wither! Even lacking context the cited comments in advance of deletion were derailing, and without any clear defense I can't imagine they're any great loss. You can pretend that there was some larger point being made but it was little more than petty trolling. Kat and others know exactly what the fuck they're doing and they knew precisely that they were on someone else's forum.

@59: I'm sorry, but where are those signatures, Tom? Where is your legal victory, Tom? Here we are, almost 2 years after the election and your website lists how many signatures, Tom?

And now you crawl out of the muck to say you'll be fighting for us? How noble. Fuck you. Laurel is part of our fucking community, you can leave your vile hate out of our state.

We already have trans-inclusive non-discrimination laws, among the most robust in the nation at this point, by the way. There is not and will not be a move to overturn those or halt expansion since they're already at more or less their peak. Moreover, ERW has been consistent in support of trans-inclusive legislation for the past few years and has never backed down. They almost shut down their own anti-bullying bill over attempts at stripping protection for trans students.

We don't need you and your fuckery betrays any good you were hoping to do.

Politics makes STRANGE bedfellows...

@62: Go fuck yourself.

"equal rights for transgender people"

Is this an issue? You are a girl (or boy) now. Okay. There it is. You get the same rights you had when you were the other sex. Nothing changed but your genitals.

OOhhhhh... You want ATTENTION. Gotcha.

Well, the larger point is that if you actually got to know her you wouldn't be so vile. Attempting to make a real-world connection versus cloak-and-dagger games of making a big reveal to bigots is far more honorable.

And "she abused her authority"? Oh, wither little rose, wither! Even lacking context the cited comments in advance of deletion were derailing, and without any clear defense I can't imagine they're any great loss.
Posted by Baconcat on February 23, 2011 at 6:40 PM
======================================

I'm glad she's your friend and you stand by your friends. Your loyalty is commendable, if uninformed. I'm sorry it upsets you so to see her actions criticized.

I did try and contact her and PHB via email - she never contacted me. I was quite clear to others from Pam's what my email was and that was how she could do so. She never took any responsibility for her actions or did me the courtesy of informing me that she deleted my entire account when I asked for several days what was happening. Other people from PHB spoke up when she found herself unable to.

Is that how she treats you?

And she didn't just delete a comment, she deleted all of my comments, all of my articles that were front paged at Pam's - and the comments of every other person who commented on any thread I commented on or any article I wrote going back about five years. It was not just deleting a comment or two. It was erasing someone you had a political disagreement with.

I understand that you may not think the articles had any value - but - the blog owner did choose to front page them and she did choose to cite some of them in her articles in other venues.

So - opinions will vary. Which isn't to say that you're not entitled to have one without having read the articles, the comments or the thousands of comments by people other than myself that were deleted.

So no one has commented on the basic irony of the piece above. Lurleen made a name for herself exposing people who were going to anti-gay rights rallies and “screaming bloody murder” when anti-gay political groups didn’t report their donors’ full names. Yet she seems unhappy to have her own anonymity breached. She does not respect the anonymity of those with whom she disagrees yet expects to maintain that herself. What a hypocrite.

@70: Did you or did you not suggest knowledge of her actual identity as a means to defame or intimidate her?

Simple question.

All these anti trans sentiments and demeaning comments by friends and associates of "Lurleen"

I guess that old adage is correct, that you can truly judge a person's character by the company she keeps...

@73: Haha, what.

Clearly they disagree with you so they're friends with Laurel! That means Laurel is transphobic!

EUREKA!!!!

Internet drama is news now?

Why are you hitting yourself, why are you hitting youself...

shut up, all of you. just SHUT UP. this is exactly what those fundie right wingers love: dissension and division. would you PLEASE stop giving them what they want? huh? is that too much to ask? anyway, this is just the fucking internet, for chrissakes. stop taking yourselves so fucking seriously.

@EVERYONE

WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

Some people with really skewed priorities here. Gay people are not the enemy of transsexual people, the fundies are. You're just helping them with this crap. Who cares if someone deleted comments on THEIR blog? It's theirs! Get your own and say whatever the fuck you want.

I've read all 78 comments and am still confused as to why Lurleen drew so much ire from this group of three (three, right?) people. Something about accidentally deleting blog posts? Somewhere? Or something?

I don't know if this will solve all that misdirected anger or help those three hot messes, but if anyone needs me to show them how to access and use the Wayback Machine, I'd be more than happy to help.

I could give 2 shits about someone deleting shit off their blog, or whatever this argument is about BUT:

1. If you want to talk about mental illness, homosexuality was in the DSM and that wasn't too long ago.

2. Apparently some people think the pro-gay movement should go forward sans the "T" ? Nevermind the fact that what is widely thought of to be the beginning of the gay rights movement in America was the stonewall riot, which was queer v police battle started by and fought primarily by transgendered people.

2b/3. 'Regular' homosexuals can act like the "T" means 'transexual' but it's 'transgendered' and that encompasses a lot more than just the transexual experience. There was a time when butch lesbian may have been seen as someone of transgendered experience (I would still argue this) same as a drag queen, or a twinky gay man. These experiences are only separated by language and discounting the transgendered experience in furtherance of the gay movement does everyone a disservice.

4. @68 often the genitals are the *last* thing that changes when a person comes to the realization that they are transexual. In most states it's still legal to discriminate against employees on the basis of gender identity, homeless shelters don't accept gender non-conforming youth (including people of transgendered experience and people who just appear to be trans), trans people without the resources to change their legal paperwork are denied access to welfare services, and that's just to name a few. It's not about attention or visibility it's basic human rights, namely the right to not die starving in the gutter. (BTW, it's still legal to fire homos in most states too).

Blah blah blah, introducing actual people into arguments makes everything messy, but as people can't we all agree that we should all be guaranteed at least the opportunity to be happy? Whether that happiness come from getting married, having job security, or not wondering where your next meal will come from since your parents kicked your 15 year old ass out of the house, can't we at least pretend that we have the ability to see how our individual plight just might be a shared one and your successes are also anothers?

Or we can separate gender from gay rights, hop in the way back machine and go back to a time when feminine men were raped, beaten, arrested, and killed, and when butch women had to wear heels out, or frilly panties because there was a law mandating how may articles gender appropriate clothing you needed to wear (they were raped, beaten, arrested, and killed too, don't worry). And then when June comes around, instead of celebrating the birth of the lgbt movement we can all, homos and trannies alike, weep quietly to ourselves inside of our apartments because you better believe the religious right didn't take a time out to fight amongst each other, and in this bleak future queers aren't allowed outside.

It's people like all involved that make me wish I was completely hetero. *sigh*

@80

Despite it not being perfect, the WayBackMachine is one of my favorite research tools. One of its imperfections is not being able to go back for things that are only a few minutes old.

"I've read all 78 comments and am still confused..."

The reasons for this are that (1) Mr. Holden was simply acting as Laurel Ramseyer's scrivener in writing this piece; and (2) most of the commenters are accepting the notion that Mr. Holden's piece is even in the same time zone as 'journalism.'

Here is something that a 'journalist' could have conveyed in a piece about this matter if he was actually interested in doing something other than a fifth-rate hack job that wouldn't even make the cut on the gossip page at the New York Post.

- “jpmassar” posted the item "New Hampshire to LGBTs: Happy New Year! Now Die" ( http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/1834… ) at Pam's House Blend. In the view of myself, Kathleen and some others, the post mischaracterized the legal position of trans people in the state of New Hampshire.

- I took issue with it on that PHB thread - more vocally than any of the others. Kathleen occasionally chimed in as well.

- “Lurleen,” and others, took issue with my interpretation of the legal issues in question; all in all, nothing unusual given that a disturbing number of non-Ts in the LGBT movement really don’t like to see the operational apartheid of gay-only rights laws spelled out – and they really, really don’t like to be reminded of just how unseemly it is for a state that has such a gay-only rights law apartheid to bypass trans equality and move on to the non-trans issue of gay marriage.

- Sometime during the afternoon of Jan. 1, one of “Lurleen”‘s comments prompted Kathleen to ask – simply and tastefully – if Lurleen had a professional interest in the gay marriage issue.

- “Lurleen”‘s response itself was neither inherently distasteful nor mean nor inappropriate toward Kathleen, but ”Lurleen” did explictly mention having a connection to Equal Rights Washington and, furthermore, made a *specific* claim to not be a sockpuppet.

- Kathleen thereafter looked on ERW’s website and found that the only person listed who was making a claim to a connection to PHB – as a ‘front page blogger’ no less – was someone named Laurel Ramseyer.

- Upon noticing that, Kathleen posed a question on the ongoing PHB thread – without openly connecting "Lurleen" and Laurel – as to whether someone with the background listed under ‘Laurel Ramseyer’ on the ERW site might have some sort of conflict in claiming not to have a vested interest in the marriage position she was taking on the PHB thread.

- Soon after, and without any advance warning or explanation afterward, Kathleen wasn’t merely banned from PHB; the comment in which she posed the question AND her entire presence on the site was erased.

- Kathleen informed me of what happened and then passed along what she thought was the connection: “Lurleen” to Laurel.

- Just by chance, I had left the browser on my upstairs desktop computer open to the page containing the “jpmassar” NH thread, refreshed at a point with much (though not all) of the “Lurleen”-Kathleen back-and-forth still present (my PDF dump of the page at that point can be found here: http://endablog.files.wordpress.com/2011… ; again: this does contain what led up to the question Kathleen posed, but not the question itself.)

- I did two google searches on the open internet and found the even-more-obvious connection between “Lurleen” and Laurel.

- I started the first ENDABlog post on this matter (http://endablog.wordpress.com/2011/01/01…) just the first few lines of it, stating that I was aware that something was up (hence the rather weird title of the thing- which, hopefully, now makes sense), but still with hopes that there had just been the sort of "accident" that Ramseyer claims it was (a claim that Mr. Holden uncritically accepts.)

- When repeated efforts by Kathleen even to get an explanation as to what happened failed, she gave me the thumbs-up to go ahead and publicize the matter (via an amending of that first ENDABlog post, and the second one: http://endablog.wordpress.com/2011/01/04… )

- At some point thereafter, Laurel e-mailed me with a demand to take the post down, asserting that the information therein was private - despite the fact that all I had done to get to the point where I could make that connection was do an initial google search with the terms "Laurel Ramseyer" and "Lurleen", something no one in the pro-LGBT camp llikely would have even thought about doing had she herself not, as "Lurleen", touted her connection to ERW in an attempt to one-up Kathleen on that PHB thread - while claiming to not be a sockpuppet (in at least one post at PHB, as "Lurleen" she had posted an online petition which contained the names of several signatories - one being Laurel Ramseyer.)

Laurel Ramseyer outed herself. She threw a hissy-fit when people noticed. And now she's found a FOX-quality 'journalist' from teh same paper that lets Dan Davage spew his shit to the four winds to take her side.

@70: Did you or did you not suggest knowledge of her actual identity as a means to defame or intimidate her?

Simple question.
Posted by Baconcat on February 23, 2011 at 8:07 PM ·
====================================

No - asking someone if they have a conflict would usually only be embarrassing if..... you had a conflict of interest.

I don't see any intimidation in my comment - she wasn't called any name, no homophobic sobriquets were used, she wasn't threatened, her name wasn't noted, her address wasn't noted her spouses name or work wasn't noted.

All things that she's done to others, BTW.

I'd call attempts at intimidation or embarrassment Dom's article (and the cute misgendering graphic her approved as editor) and comments on this blog like these.
=====================================

“A tranny acted like a crazypants? That's weird”

“trans activists... making hysterical accusations again, how odd”

“Well, Doc, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Clearly the proper treatment for gender identity disorder is an subcutaneous injection of 5 cc's of SHUT THE FUCK UP followed by an intravenous drip of GET THE FUCK OUT OF SLOG.”

"equal rights for transgender people"

Is this an issue? You are a girl (or boy) now. Okay. There it is. You get the same rights you had when you were the other sex. Nothing changed but your genitals.

OOhhhhh... You want ATTENTION. Gotcha.”

“shut up, all of you. just SHUT UP.”
=========================================

Pot - meet kettle.

Once again, by lashing out venemously, venomlash demonstrates the mental instability of the transgendered. It's sad, because they can't help themselves. Like alcoholics in the grip of a disease, with doctors prescribing vodka.

I'm so sorry no one is getting you any help. Your enablers are killing you.

@86: Pointing to facts that an irresponsible non-journalist couldn't be bothered with is "venomlash," eh? Someone definitely has been into the vodka - or worse.

Nice to see that, even after 3+ decades, the Janice Raymond crowd can't come up with any new anti-trans slurs. It would be even nicee to see if anyone has ever officially challenged whether you're misrepresenting yourself with that "Responsible" tag.

KatrinaRose: venomlash is a commentators name. I was referring to comment #64. Not using the term 'venomlash' to describe someone or as some pejorative.

You have extreme reading comprehension or attention deficit problems. Seek aid.

I have the ability to acknowledge that I misread your comment - well, part of it anyway.

I still wonder about challenges to your use of the word "Responsible."

Thanks for the excellent example of projection, Doc.

I hope your peers recognize your obsessive fixation and posting on trans people as the cry for help it is and not just consider how it sullies your profession.

Is there a resource like this in your area?

"Doctors Support line TEL 0844 395 3010 www.dsn.org.uk

The Doctors' Support Network (DSN) is a fully confidential, friendly self-help group for doctors with mental health concerns."

Please - get help.

Woah, this is like an honest to goodness 90's live journal fight.

Homeroom's going to be so awkward next Monday...

@"Okay, here's I think where you messed up. You could have sent her a private message asking about her identity, or made any sort of reply that didn't include her real name but expounded on her confessed connections to ERW. No matter how 'easy' it seemed to you to discover her real identity, it's poor internet etiquette to post real names and thereby 'out' people. Period.

Posting real names changes how google views someone."
==========

Yes - I didn't post her real name - so - we're in agreement.

@86: What projection!
I'm actually a cisgendered heterosexual male. You mad?

@ 91

"Fair question, but please, I really doubt there's a way that you can do this 'simply and tastefully'."

I certainly concede that there can be honest disagreement as to whether its possible and and even as to whether that's what happened. However, do note that I provided a link to a PDF file which contains the pre-scrubbing version of the PHB thread that contains the "Lurleen"-Kathleen discussion (http://endablog.files.wordpress.com/2011…).

There was discussion that led up to it, but the actual, verbatim question was: "Can I ask if you have a professional interest in the marriage rights issue?"

Clearly, seeing a trans woman ask a straightforward question, without invective and with proper punctuation is something that will disappoint a lot of people here (I'm not directing that at you given that you seem to be interested in the actual underlying facts) because it will cause them to have to go for the vodka (or whatever else it is that they use to give themselves the courage to self-reinforce their Barney Frank-laden opinions of trans women) a bit earlier in the day than they had perhaps anticipated doing so.

The response of "Lurleen," in relevant part: "professional interest? i volunteer (meaning i DO NOT get paid and NEVER HAVE) for equal rights washington which is dedicated to lgbt equality and played a solid role in getting transgender people covered by state hate
crimes and nondiscrimination laws. erw also supported the efforts to pass the domestic partnership laws and will support marriage quality when the time is right."

The follow-up to that did reference the specific qualifications, etc. that were touted by Laurel Ramseyer on the ERW site, BUT, as Kathy has noted, DID NOT include the name "Laurel Ramseyer"

Your suggestion of "You could have sent her a private message" would be a far more proper query to Ms. Ramseyer. Honestly, however, posing that question to her isn't your job. It was that of Mr. Holden, who dutifully and uncritically instead mouthed Ms. Ramseyer's opinion of herself: "In this case, though, Ramseyer wasn't using internet anonymity in order to be mean."

I'm not even sure that I or Kathleen have ever expressly made the claim that the mere fact that Ms. Ramseyer used the ID "Lurleen" was "in order to be mean." I think there can be honest disagreements about whether one can adopt an 'all gay marriage, all the time' stance (and we're not talking about what she may or may not have done in the state of Washington and its trans-inclusivegay rights law; the discussion in question involves New Hampshire and the other purportedly-liberal east coast states that are less trans friendly than Illinois, Iowa, Colorado and New Mexico) and, in one's heart, not be being mean to the people who need employment, housing and public accommodations protections more than gays in the jurisdictions who already have those protections - while trans people don't - want marriage.

But, asking someone who puts her name(s) and face out there to push gay marriage-primacy in jurisdictions where trans people have no protections has no legitimate right to be shocked when someone who is and will be on the short end of her politico-legal strategy asks questions about her motivations.

Asking such questions is not mean.

Being expected either to not see or to not further inquire about what someone in Ms. Ramseyer's position herself puts out as an answer to such questions and to not inquire about them in the same forum that she put those answers out for public scrutiny in is...well, maybe not mean, but it is certainly on the outside of realistic looking in.

Making no effort to contact someone before - given all of the above as prelude - permanently erasing that person's existince from a major LGBT blog?

You be the judge.

Huh, I don't know why nobody is speaking for the Trans community in this thread.

I will, I am after all TOTALLY IN CHARGE OF ALL OF THEM.

SO as ambassador to all trans people I would like to say: "Sorry, shit is real tough these days and we/i got carried away, Sorry."

Done and done.

Actually, I dont know lurleen.

But I cant stand the way trans activists want to subsume the rest of the letters in our allegedly happy family of queers.

by getting all T on it, we lost the chance to pass ENDA. all those years of outreach smashed at one blow. All the work of trans people who happen to be LGB and interested in those rights, wiped out.

So no, I am not interested in why trans right should be a higher priority than marriage equality. OR an end to DADT. Or ENDA.

Trans people worked hard as part of the community for many, many years. These new "T is the most important letter' people have fucked it up for all of us.

@"Okay, here's I think where you messed up. You could have sent her a private message asking about her identity, or made any sort of reply that didn't include her real name but expounded on her confessed connections to ERW. No matter how 'easy' it seemed to you to discover her real identity, it's poor internet etiquette to post real names and thereby 'out' people. Period."

Again, what is so hard for people to understand that Laurel Ramseyer outed herself, she outed her wife as a non-national and named her, she posted two photos of herself--one in her ERW bio as Laurel Ramseyer where she also said she is a front pager on PHB, the other on Facebook and tagged herself as Lurleen Blogovitch? Can we move on now that the trans activists did not "out" her? And as her damage control she had Autumn Sundeen appear on a trans audio blog talking about Lurleen's imagined involvement in the transparency challenge in WA and as doing "undercover work" in anti-gay org???? Who the hell announces to the world in the eyes of the anti-gays that she is doing undercover work in anti gay orgs? Prior to that the word was sent out as the primary excuse for Lurleen was that she was protecting her wife from deportation but as I stated, Laurel and Lurleen called her wife out by name and in the ERW bio to boot!

Enough of this ! But I do find it funny and telling that "Lurleen" who is being heralded by her friends and associates as a trans allied hero and who has the habit of chasing people in blogs and mainstream media comment pages and I am sure is reading every comment here on Slog, has not once yet put anyone in their place regarding these transphobic comments.

Not once has "Lurleen" had the class to say, "hey, there is no need to attack trans people in general or say some of the things you say. Thank you for defending me, but my gripe is with person X, Y and Z, but please do not disparage trans people with your comments."

Of course not...

Plus, why do trans activists write such long diatribes that no one will ever read?

This is just a s true on the MWMF board.

TL;DR should be the initials that stand for Trans.

@ 99

Thank you for acknowledging that you have no interest in anything that might not comport with your point of view. Are you typing from a home computer? Or from your Blackberry while at a Sarah Palin rally?