For starters, white liberals (and everyone else), can work to keep Westlake Mall's involvement here in the public eye, especially in these months leading up to the Christmas tree lighting (and the entire Christmas shopping season).
Talk a lot, taking after Ansel's lead.
Demand that Westlake Mall fire Valor Security, I refuse to shop there until they do, starting with our planned Snohomish Couny Gay Men's task force bus trip to Westlake Mall and Seattle Center next month. A whole group of free spending older gay men will be buying elsewhere if Valor isn't gone. Why the hell isn't Mr. Hinds in jail or under indictment for assault or reckless endangerment?
Friday afternoon's a rough time to put up a post that most people should read...
Also, reparations, duh. It'll take three generations to fix the problem, but it can be done.
I've sworn off guiding the slenderest of my friends through Zara, for one,
@4: Gah, I know...
Guess you need to repost to the top a few times over the weekend.

Thanks for doing that with the chorus.
Mace is not pepper spray.

Pepper spray is not Mace.

They are very different chemicals, with very different effects.

In the US, Mace is no longer used, because pepper spray is both less dangerous and more effective.

When you say Wilford was "maced" by this jerk of a security guard, you are saying something that simply is not true.
"Alex Garland, a photographer, plays a slideshow showing how the pepper spray incident unfoleded"

So why isn't the Mall Cop looking for a new job yet?
Stuart Hinds needs to be fired now.

Fuck Westlake Mall and Valor Security. They've been silent on this issue. Contact the retailers directly. Let them know you will not be shopping at their stores in Westlake and elsewhere until Hinds and Valor are held accountable.

Personally the only store I go to regularly in the mall is Lush. They have only one store in Seattle, and I think a boycott of Westlake would get their attention.

I'm in favor of reparations as long as you make the payments to anyone living in America who publicly asks for them.

If you only want to pay them to "black people," you're going to have to define that in a way that the people making the payments can act on. I think you might find that very difficult, both practically and ethically.

If you only want to pay them to descendants of slaves, then you are going to be punishing people who don't have documentation of their slave ancestry.

So just pay them to anyone who feels they've been hurt by America's legacy of slavery, or hurt enough to merit compensation, and is willing to say as much in public.
@10 @11

For all we know, the security guard has in fact been fired. The companies involved aren't talking, and Ansel doesn't seem to have the reporting chops to dig up an answer to the question without relying on direct statements from the offices of the mall or the mall-militia.
Westlake Mall is still open?
@Ansel, I was there and it was a good talk with a lot of tough things us white people should hear. That being said, I was wondering did anyone who planned it invite any representative from the police/City Council? One of the things one of the panelist said was why was it all black people up there explaining, why wasn't there anyone in power up there? I was wondering if that was because they didn't show up or because they were not invited.
Good question. I think it was a hastily organized event, and I'm not sure that they were invited. I wish they were.
Speaking of Westlake... Whatever happened to the thug who assaulted a guard there a few months ago?…
As someone noted in a previous thread, this guard holds two security guard licences through the WA deptartment of licensing (one 'armed', the other 'unarmed'). Anyone can go online and make a complaint on the DOL licensing page (click through to the security guard section.) This is tge same thing one would do to report, say, medical malpractice.

This man should not just be fired and prosecuted, he should loose his license for sure.
@Ansel, thanks for answering. One other thing me and some friends were wondering after was what can we do in this case to make things better. While we want to tackle institutional racism, it seems like a big and complex problem, whereas this is something here in Seattle that we could take action against. If you have any suggestions about anything we could do/people we could express outrage to to try to make things better please post.
Excuse me while I go commit seppuku (a Japanese method of ritual suicide, that's adding diversity) to atone for the sins of my ancestors who were either post civil war immigrants or Yankee abolitionists. I know racism isn't my fault but it's the least I can do.
Why does anybody ever ask Charles' opinion on anything? You already know what it is and what he will say. I'm only slightly surprised that he didn't bring cars into it. He is a true believer. If Marxism had clergy (I know, it is officially at odds, but not philosophically so*), then Charles would be a bishop or something. I'm sure if there were Marxist sacraments, he'd love to do them ("I bless you in the name of Marx and Engels. Rise comrade. Workers of the world unite!").

* By this I mean Marxism is a religion for people like Charles because like a religion, you must have faith and no criticism of the dogma is possible. From my experience, genuine religious people are less likely to flip out and claim you are a heretic than Marxists are if you question their logic or demand proof.
@20, what should be an obvious thing to do would be to find the mall office and make an in-person or written complaint, and do the same with the stores. I'm not sure why you wouldn't have figured that out. This guy is (or was) an employee.
@21: You're excused to go do the thing you said you would do. If you think racism suddenly stopped in 1865, and that any whites that came to the country afterwards were innocent and gained nothing from the oppression of blacks, or that you yourself have gained nothing from the oppression of blacks (your white privilege), then you are not thinking very hard or are not being honest.
sarah91 @23 is right.
Complaining is the best form of action.
I would add that you should start practicing your complaining technique around your friends. They'll love it, everyone loves a complainer.
If the police and local prosecutors remain indifferent (sadly) to this documented case of assault by the white security guard, then the victim should file a civil suit and go after money damages from Westlake Mall and their security contractor.
Can we ban dnt trust me and seattleblues? I mean, I know that's wrong, or whatever, but it would sure make me like the comments more.

Probably not, because page views (also liberty), but fuck...

The ironic thing is, the one and only time I was robbed in Seattle, it was at the Westlake mall, sitting on the plaza just outside the Starbucks kiosk. A tag team of snatch and grabs stole my Dell Ubuntu netbook (in broad daylight, while I was killing time before the Seattle Symphony).

The crooks were youngish white males who looked all the world for UW students. Maybe that's reverse racism. Instead of pulling my computer in closer to me, I assumed, oh, these guys are harmless. Now I know.

I agree with @22. The Marxist cable shows are just packed with wing-nut loonies--always flipping out . . . and whatever.
People could file a complaint about Seattle Police Department Officer Thomas Christenson #5665, who not only failed to stop the crime in process, but facilitated it. Would-be rescuers were ordered, "Let him do his job!" as the perpetrator restrained the victim and took him away against his will.
The notion of reparations borders on hilarity.

With the unsustainable debt levels our federal government is ringing up, coupled with the massive debt of each state, it's not long before we as slaves are entirely owned by the Chinese and Emirate interests who were willing to buy our debt and effectively cause us to lose our national sovereignty. (Nobody in Ireland Greece Spain Argentina or Portugal thought it was possible either. At least they receive whatever benevolence the Germans can muster.)

Simply engaging in a conversation about reparations as a plausible solution shows a stunning lack of awareness about what's really going on in the world.

And let's not forget that the credibility of Wiford should always be in doubt:…
@ 32, just like your credibility, amirite?
You're just sore because you keep picking shitty martyrs.
Hahahahahaha... You don't have the slightest clue what I think about this incident. I'm just reminding you of your low position here on Slog. This incident hasn't anything at all to do with it.
@34 You're just sore because your local klan chapter is losing more members every year.
@Zok, at this point, you might want to just give up on this username. Everybody who sees it associates it with a dipshit racist troll. All the cool trolls on Slog change their usernames periodically.
Did it never occurred for you to ask how this allegedly innocent bystander got caught up in the fracas in the first place? Would the attitude of the alleged victim in this circumstance be worth understanding in order to understand why these security patrol came to pepper spray him? Given the fantastic statistical improbability perhaps we should hire the fucking crazy guy without the shirt as a bounty Hunter. He seems to have the ability to find a repeated and violent criminal in a crowd of innocent bystanders.

we should have a presumption of innocence for Wilford it is very easy to be unsympathetic.
Please don't feed the trolls.

Two men were involved in a conflict on some combination of a public sidewalk and the semi-public area outside of a downtown shopping mall that is visually indistinguishable from the surrounding public property: Stuart Hinds, the aggressor, a contractor for General Growth Properties as an employee of Valor Security, assaulted victim Raymond Wilford with a chemical weapon. We've seen photographs of this. Officer Tom Christenson (#5665) of Seattle Police Department showed up shortly thereafter. He observed while Hinds bound Wilford's hands and forcibly took Wilford away against his will. That's kidnapping. Onlookers protested, but were threatened by Christenson, who apparently believed that kidnapping was Hinds' job, that he had no duty to intervene by stopping the crime, and that he should prevent others from intervening. We've seen video of this.

Of course, we also know that Wilford, with his fists raised, physically confronted a counterprotestor. We have photos of this.

The mall militiaman deserves to be fired, certainly.

But let's not pretend the only facts we have are the ones that fit best with our political agendas.

If you're paying very, very close attention, you'll have noticed there's a photo missing from that sequence, that would be numbered 2931. Alex Garland, the photographer and activist, took it out of the image gallery for some reason, but left the actual image file on the server.

I've retrieved that image, and copied it to imgur on the off chance that Alex decides to delete it in addition to omitting it from his gallery.

Here it is.

Why do you suppose Alex omitted that one from his photo documentary sequence?
"What Are White Liberals Going to Do About the Westlake Mall Cop Who Pepper Sprayed an Innocent Black Man?"

Impotently bitch about it on the Internet and then forget about it a week later after the next bit of agitprop hits the front page of their favorite echo chamber websites. All from the comfort of their 99% white suburban enclaves.

Same as usual basically.
White liberals often believe they don't have to do anything to address racism because they believe they are immune from responsibility by virtue of their head-cocked look of sympathy for the "poignant" story. And if you directly address them to take action, they worry that they are being accused of being racist and will exhaust you with word gymnastics to prove that they are not racist. And then they will wander off to do something with an "Occupy Wall Street" type group.

It seems like white liberals are about as popular as the KKK amoungst blacks right now. It seems we (white liberals) are all disingenuous and accountable for societies inequities. I feel like I'm expected to apologize for something and I'm not even sure what? There is no way to change what people think but we can all try harder to control what we do. I will only take responsibility for myself and refuse to take responsibility for my race, gender or anything else. Do the right thing and lead by example.
What a bunch oF gibberish!

The last time I checked, and the last time I lived in Seattle, the location to which you refer is Westlake Center – not Westlake "Mall".

Nice reporting; especially for what you call "Seattle's only Newspaper".
So I actually left the grounds of Chez Vel-DuRay today, and went downtown (it's much easier these days, what with the light rail, and not having to wear a hat and put on a girdle) and was surprised to see that Westlake Mall still is there (I thought it had been taken over by Nordstrom Rack.)

Here's a thought: If "white liberals" (or black folks, for that matter) ever want to do anything other than wring their hands and/or be angry about institutionalized racism, they have to find better ways to express themselves.

Terms like "Institutionalized Racism" and "White Privilege" (both of which I understand agree with) and "reparations" (which I also accept, at least in the Ta-Nehisi Coates context) are instant barriers to effective communication with lower and middle-class whites (who are mostly on their way to becoming lower-class, thanks to a generation of Reaganomics).

Regardless of their place in history, they don't feel particularly privileged - they're just trying to hang onto what they were promised was the American Dream - and terms like those send them right into the arms of the American right, who couldn't care less for them, but welcome their support to advance their corporate agenda.

If we're serious about racism, it's time to step out of the world of academia (I'm looking at people like you, Sawant) and address issues of economic inequality for all people. When people feel economically secure, they are much more willing to help their fellow humans - regardless of their race.
@45 hear hear. *hat tip*
I'm with @43 - all of us - "Do the right thing and lead by example."
How hard is this? Sue.

@45: Just to be clear, the discussion on Slog tends to be a little more intellectual and academic than the general discussion with the public. So it is fair to use terms like 'white privilege' or discuss reparations in the Ta-Nehisi Coates context. Most of us here are social and political junkies. This is our language.

But you are right that using this terminology when discussing these concepts with the public is a pretty stupid idea. When the initial reparations article came out, I was worried that it was going directly to Fox News, Drudge, Hannity, Brietbart, and whatever other source of lowest-common denominator news out there to be used to stir up racial animosity. This is something we always need to keep in mind when having discussions with people who don't spend much of their time worrying about these topics. In this way, some of our resident trolls can be somewhat helpful (usually not, but occasionally they can be). They allow us to practice against Rovian tactics here before we have to deal with them in the real world.
" it's time to step out of the world of academia (I'm looking at people like you, Sawant) and address issues of economic inequality for all people."

Catalina dear, who do you think pushed for a higher minimum wage in Seattle?
White liberals in Seattle only give a shit about racism when it can be used as a cudgel against white conservatives.

The sad truth is, black people shouldnt need white liberals in Seattle to stand up for them/us. We should be out protesting this racist idiot even now. But Seattles black community lost its 'black consciousness' long ago, and would rather stay quiet and try to fit in rather than call out the bullshit we endure every day. The guy who was pepper sprayed confirmed this himself when he blew off the racism by claiming "Well, I dont let it get to me". WTF, any other race or demographic on the planet would be actively raging about this kind of shit, yet you turn the other cheek like its going to go away?

So no. White liberals arent going to do shit about racism in Seattle, as they never have. Maybe a few twitter comments and #ferguson tweets. White conservatives will keep endorsing/defending racist bullshit, and will continue to get away with it.
Sarah dear, Sawant seems to be something of a one-trick pony. She thinks a $15 minimum raise and rent control will fix all our woes. Plus, she is possibly the most boring person to ever serve on the council - and that's saying something.
Form a committee made up of people from other committees.

Yes, please address the questions posed by @40.

He's not trolling either. These are legitimate questions. The kid is previously convicted criminal who – while allegedly innocently bystanding – was confronted by an attacker.

What (separately) caused both the "attacker" and the Blart to single-out Wiflord?
Why did the photographer choose to edit-out the one photo that showed Wilford aggressively punching?
Why, with all of the images of the crazy ass white guy confronting other protesters – are there no photos that show the initial engagement of Wilford?

These seem to be compelling questions for white liberals who profess an interest in "justice."

In light of Wilford, and Michael Brown, perhaps we should have another article entitled.

"What are white liberals going to do about their bias against facts inconvenient to the Grievance Industry?


Yes, please address the questions posed by @40.

He's not trolling either. These are legitimate questions. The kid is previously convicted criminal who – while allegedly innocently bystanding – was confronted by an attacker.


- What (separately) caused both the "attacker" and the Blart to single-out Wilford? All the reporting has been what, when, how and who questions. Why didn't someone ask "Why?"

- Why did the photographer choose to edit-out the one photo that showed Wilford aggressively punching? Odd.

- Why, with all of the images of the crazy ass white guy confronting other protesters – are there no photos that show the initial engagement of Wilford? Odd.

- There are reports of video showing the detention of Wilford. Is there video of preceding events? Has there been any thought to solicit on Slog the posting of that video? Why not? Its not hard to do?

These seem to be compelling questions for white liberals who profess an interest in "justice."

In light of Wilford, and Michael Brown, perhaps we should have another article entitled.

"What are white liberals going to do about their bias against facts that may be inconvenient to the Grievance Industry?

How can anyone ignore the obvious harsh reality that giving more power over guns to a corrupt police force is only going to escalate police brutality, and increase psychopathic violence towards innocent people?


The financial backers of the gun control hysteria bandwagon are clearly unconcerned, and quite silent, about the countless psychopathic police who commit violent crimes and murders against innocent people, aren't they?

Anybody???????? Am I the only one?
@57: Thank you, thank you, thank you so much! I was just thinking that since this is thread that had no links to gun control, it should really be a discussion of gun control. That would give this thread so much more clarity and allow the de-escalation of opinions. By introducing gun control into this discussion, the only possible result would be that people would argue more civilly and express their opinions more logically. So thank you for your incredible and valued insight, you little genius!

An even better question is why the NRA and its supporters aren't front and center calling for an armed populace to oppose the police.
""Whiteness," said ***Reverent*** Harriet Walden of Mothers for Police Accountability."

I think you meant "Reverend."
I'll support reparations for black folks at the exact moment reparation checks are cashed for Native Americans, and not a moment before.
My ancestors are Irish, and were abused horribly after they came to America. Where's my reparations check?

I think "Notre Dame Fighting Irish" is a racist disparagement of Hibernian people. Where is MSNBC to project my outrage?
Post #40 wins.

@60 This is fixed. Thanks for noticing!
@40: The image is on that page. Press ctrl-u to see the page source, then search for "img_2931" in it.

Regardless, that is a distraction. Stuart Hinds of Valor Security assaulted and kidnapped Raymond Wilford. Seattle Police Department Officer Tom Christenson #5665 observed the kidnapping from a distance of several feet and ordered bystanders to refrain from stopping it.
@45 I always have enjoyed your comments, and that right there was one of the smartest things I have read on Slog in a long while.
@45 Catalina Vel-DuRay: Amen! You tell it like it is, and absolutely win this thread!!
@40: Maybe he omitted it because it's a misleading image. You should read what the various witnesses said happened:…
@69 Yes. The image you view with your own eyes is "misleading." Yeah. It's always better to delete anything that might "mislead."

For fuck sake what a stupid thing to say. You undermine yourself constantly with this two faced hypocritical bullshit.

You realize racist ideologues are saying the same thing about the photos of the moron mall cop. And about all the photos of armored cops in Ferguson.

Your problem is you want to have these ideologically pure martyrs for your causes so you reject any narrative with complexity. Well. Pure perfect people, they don't exist. And by trying to paint Wilford as "innocent" gives ammunition to the other side.

It's perfectly possible Wilford was an aggressive asshole out trying to pick a fight. And it shouldn't matter.

He was no threat to the Mall security and the rent a cops had no right to pepper spray or detain him.


I have in fact read the accounts of those activist witnesses, and I am aware of the narrative they are promulgating.

At the same time, my mind remains open to other narratives, perhaps rooted in entirely human failings of everyone involved, rather than in caricatures of utter villainy and blameless victimhood.

Does yours?

Well, it's nice to see that Alex Garland, at least, turns around and does the right thing when caught doing the wrong thing.

Hopefully, we'll eventually see the same from Westlake, Valor, or Mr. Hinds himself. He obviously doesn't have the judgement or emotional control required for the job, it's quite clear from the photos that he didn't need to use the pepper spray, and if he doesn't have the self-awareness to recognize his own professional failings and resign, then the right thing to do is fire him.
still here, still boycotting Westlake, still waiting for Stuart Hinds to face some consequences...

When was the last time you shopped at Westlake?

I mean, before the mall handed down that apparently-not-enough-to-count-as-a-consequence decision of "you're fired" on Hinds, for uselessly pepper-spraying a guy who had been but was no longer engaged in a fistfight?

Please wait...

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