You know it's bad when politicians have to step in to protect patients from the ACLU! Thank you Jeanne and Roger!

I-502 will suffer federal preemption - the NAW campaign is banking on that move so they can take the feds to court - this is an admitted part of their strategy.

The initiative requires state agencies to cooperate with federal officers. This means that every business applicant, for a new "legal" cannabis enterprise, will be forced to incriminate themselves with an admission of intent to violate federal law. This will be ruled unconstitutional under the 5th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, and Article 1 Section 9 of the Washington State Constitution. A judge might throw the entire case out from these flaws alone.

So here is the truth about the DUI provisions under I-502:
- Will guilty people be caught? Yes.
- Will innocent people be found guilty? Yes
- Will guilty people go free? Yes
- How can this happen? Because NAW ignored the science that proves cannabis impairment is not relative to alcohol, and active THC does not metabolize in the human body at consistently predictable rates.

I-502 does not include "rebuttable presumption", otherwise known as your right to defend your suspected guilt in court. Per Se means you are guilty until you can prove your innocence, but I-502 strips you of your right to a defense. If this passes, the low-threshold DUI provisions are the sections of the initiative that judges may wish to keep.

In addition, the legal ounce allowed under I-502 may withstand federal preemption too, because that section of I-502 follows the repeal model (the same as Sensible Washington). States cannot write laws that conflict with federal law (like taxing and regulating a federally controlled substance), but states are not required to enforce federal law.

If the legal ounce remains, consumers will not be able to legally obtain product. The illegal black market (or gray market) will step up to fill demand.

I-502 creates new laws that take away people's freedoms - this is opposite the very principles that anti-prohibitionists aspire to. I-502 is an extension of prohibition, and and risks further abuse of police powers. Passage stands to increase the war on marijuana in Washington State, and law enforcement will have a new discriminatory and indefensible law with which to target and profile suspect cannabis users.

Dominic refering to people who use cannabis for medical reasons as Stoners is a bit insulting to say the least.

By the way, Dominic edited the official response from Patients Against I-502. The full response read as follows:

"We are encouraged that lawmakers are taking our concerns seriously, and doing something to address the problem. We appreciate SEN KOHL-WELLES attempt to fix a problem created by i502 which it's sponsors have been unwilling to remedy."

Why not just abolish prohibition...period! We have given the gov't. too much power mostly based on our belief systems..the gov't. has lied to the World about this beneficial plant since 1937. It has been proven to us over and over that we cannot trust our lawmakers and so-called leaders..we even fight each other over their ridiculous policies. there is really only ONE solution to all of this squabbling..abolish prohibition!!!

Why not just abolish prohibition...period! We have given the gov't. too much power mostly based on our belief systems..the gov't. has lied to the World about this beneficial plant since 1937. It has been proven to us over and over that we cannot trust our lawmakers and so-called leaders..we even fight each other over their ridiculous policies. there is really only ONE solution to all of this squabbling..abolish prohibition!!!

Why not just abolish prohibition...period! We have given the gov't. too much power mostly based on our belief systems..the gov't. has lied to the World about this beneficial plant since 1937. It has been proven to us over and over that we cannot trust our lawmakers and so-called leaders..we even fight each other over their ridiculous policies. there is really only ONE solution to all of this squabbling..abolish prohibition!!!

Dominic -

Perhaps Cannabis Clash would be better - and more rhythmic...:-). A goal is to eliminate the sort of "toilet humor" that denigrates freedom, peace and fundamental civil and human rights for human beings regardless of the choices they make for their own bodies.

As to the remainder, I appreciate your making us aware of the legislative action. I expected as much and wish we would put our energy into supporting our known legislators who would support this rather than all the heat which is just wasting our energy for success.

Greg Logan

@5 this is something that is very troublesome to me - the fact that people are misinformed about 502. patients can still grow their own medicine if 502 passes. it would not touch our current medical marijuana laws under RCW 69.51A. the reality is that the majority of voters in this state want to see a regulated system of distribution. the bill doesn't allow for home grows yet (outside of patients) but if we're changing the paradigm and normalizing the use, possession and distribution of marijuana, eventually people will lighten up and allow home grows. i understand the HUGE problem people have with the DUI provision, but if something that fixed it for patients was passed this legislative session to pre-empt 502, would people then turnaround and support 502? if not, why not?

I-502 forces no one to grow or sell marijuana.

The legal ounce limit will survive a federal attack. States have the absolute right to do this, though the Feds can withhold funds as a penalty. This legal limit will take marijuana offenses out of district and municipal courts, along with their draconian mandatory minimum penalties. It will also drastically help those who are on probation or who are being supervised by DOC.

Many legalization advocates who oppose I-502 don’t want a per se rule even though society is generally comfortable with one. They seem to not want it mainly because they don’t trust officers to base arrests on Probable Cause. This distrust will never, in my opinion, convince voters to legalize marijuana for recreational use without safeguards such as a per se rule. Voters will err on the side of safety when it comes to these issues due to decades if misinformation. No one can blame them.

When confronted with the justifications for a per se rule, opponents argue that 5ng isn’t grounded in science. My response to them is as follows: 1) whether you like it or not, science often times does little to sway public opinion; 2) what little science that does exists is new and evolving; and 3) hearts have to change before science can take over and perform miracles. This is the reality for stem cell research now. Cannabis is no different.

I-502 will help change hearts and minds across the country. I support it.

@11 (Alex) - Changing the hearts and minds of the public is of little consolation to the innocent people who stand to be wrongly convicted and unfairly imprisoned should I-502 become law.

@westseattlered
It does not directly change medical marijuana, but why would we need medical marijuana if we had legal recreational marijuana? I thought the whole point of legalizing it was to make it more affordable for low income patients and to stop steering adults toward alcohol, and to stop steering kids towards careers in the easy money black market. I-502 will be pre-empted, and it will make the black market stronger, and lots of sober people are going to end up with a marijuana DUI on their record.

Yes on legalization, no on I-502.

Alex recently made this statement: “The intent of ending prohibition is to end abuse of laws that incriminate peaceful, and otherwise innocent people.” I ask him how incriminating patients (peaceful, otherwise innocent people) with I-502 is different. Isn't that hypocrisy? I have gotten no answer yet. I am still waiting.

But let's remember something: Cops in Washington shoot innocent people dead in the street for no good reason, then lie about it, and you are of the opinion that voters will be okay with unjust laws?

Alex, you KNOW better. And even politicians now agree and already make moves to protect patients from I-502's bogus DUI portion. They realize how much of a problem 502 really is, as well as how unfair it would be.

Trying to pass this law by tossing patients under to bus to pacify voters is a poor political move and I hope it is the worst backfire in political history. Certainly the ACLU could not stoop too much lower than this, but then again, one would not expect an organization that is supposed to protect civil rights to be trying to take them away.

I-502 will do bad things to good people, for no better reason than to provide a political stepping stone for Alison Holcomb. She justifies sacrificing patients so the voters will say yes to this initiative, but who will she throw to the wolves next? It just might be you!

No real believer in human rights with any intelligence can sit by and say that it is right and good to make criminals out of the innocent. No champion of human rights can truthfully stand up and say we should do this. Only those who put the recreational users desire to smoke a blunt over patients right to be free of wrongful incrimination are in favor of this. Anyone who says it's about civil rights is just wrong, as there is nothing civil about taking away the rights of an entire population so you can give rights to another. One just cancels out the other, except patients are sick, disabled, dying and trying to stay alive, and smokers just want to have fun.

I have nothing against the recreational smoker and have worked toward full legalization diligently, but I can never support something that works against humanity, and that is exactly what I-502 will do.

As for professionals, I have worked as a nurse for many years, primarily in home health case management. I have first hand experience with patients and their daily struggles to meet their needs, and I can tell you this will make things much more difficult for many, and impossible for some. Our jails will be fuller and our criminal justice system will suck the life out of those who only needed a hand now and then, not a kick in the face when they are laying on the ground.

I believe Adolph Hitler was quite adept at criminalizing the innocent. Did he get resurrected as an attorney for the ACLU?

Mimi, where did I post that and when? Post a link please.

And for the record, every single sponsor and supporter of I-502 that I have met or personally know, especially Ms. Holcomb, has their heart in this at least as much as I do if not more. In fact, they have sacrificed a great deal to do what they believe is right.

All of us want to do the greatest amount of good possible. I stand with I-502, as do many others.

My personal objection to I-502 remains strong even if medical cannabis patients are let off the hook with the proposed new protections to assure correlation of blood levels with actual physical signs of impairment.

I worry about the recreational, well-accustomed cannabis smoker that uses it fairly regularly. I've seen in one regular user of cannabis that the active THC blood level can linger around 5 ng/ml for up to 48 hours after smoking (with total abstinence) with absolutely no hints of impairment on extensive medical testing at any time,..... even with levels many times the suggested cut-off of 5 ng/ml.
(I've also seen regular users function just fine with levels of active delta-9 THC up to 147 ng/ml with absolutely NO hints of impairment on standardized sobriety testing.)

Why just patients should be protected from un-scientific laws that implicate impairment at a certain level is, frankly, beyond me.

An unjust law is unjust, period. It is wrong to convict ANYONE based solely on a ng level of active THC alone without correlation with actual, physical impairment testing.

Respectfully,

Gil Mobley, M.D.
Fellow, American College of Emergency Physicians
Diplomate, American Board of Emergency Medicine
Certified, Medical Review Officer, MROCC

Mimi, Troy Barber made that statement, by the way.

My apologies. There were some walls of text and I did get lost more than once. I stand corrected.

Seriously Dominic, I am not going to take a position on this initiative one but how can you act as if you are third party reporting on this issue? You are NAW to a highly incestuous level and yet you report on it like you are not involved. FOX makes me sick. Why take a page from them?
Do the right thing and let some other Stranger writer take the lead on this one. You can lobby them; lead them to a story, whatever.
Your writing will always be assumed to be an infomercial to me. "Billy Mays for the Stranger here! I'm here to talk about 502! It gets any stain out at the root!"
American Journalism disgusts me.

I want to take a moment to compliment Alex Newhouse on the civil, and respectful tone with which he presented his points (see comment #11).

Even though we are on opposite sides of the I-502 debate, we should all be cognizant of the fact that we are largely on the same side, wanting to achieve similar goals.

We should be friends, not enemies. So many of us have invested time in this movement, so much of ourselves - that we are passionate and defensive when we feel the fruits of our labors are threatened by what we perceive as a bad idea.

Suspicion, distrust, and frustration, are all indicative of our commitment to the cause. Tempers fly out of frustration when we feel our points are being ignored or diminished by conjecture.

One of my personal philosophies on any argument is "The truth lies in the middle". In other words, for people to get to a point of such heated debate, there must be some kernel of truth on both sides.

It is counter productive for us to continue belittling each other with conjecture and innuendo. I propose that we continue this debate with facts and logic. We must abstain from the self-destructive tactics many of have used (including myself) in this debate.

I'm taken aback at the anti-502 forces and their arguments. If 502 passes, our state will have actually legalized and regulated marijuana use for adults, an incredible achievement. If the new DUI limit proves a problem, it can be tweaked.

The specter of a regular user being arrested for DUI after failing the drug test, while not being impaired is dwarfed by the fact that, right now, they can be arrested just for mere possession, whether they are in a car or not. Even if they are a medical user, they are in danger of arrest and harassment because of the lack of an easy verification mechanism, the whim of the cop, etc. Under 502, the mere possession of weed won't be a state crime for any adult, whether they are a user with one of the small number of recognized medical conditions allowed under current law, a medical user with other conditions, or a recreational user.

@22 - Please refer to my post (#2), there is nothing inaccurate in what I wrote, I invite anyone to prove my points wrong.

~ You cite: "If 502 passes, our state will have actually legalized and regulated marijuana use for adults"

We are saying this is not true. Both sides agree I-502 will be challenged in federal court. NAW is optimistic that they can win their case against the feds, we are saying that the case will likely be thrown out of court based on the unconstitutionality of self incrimination, in other words - the case may not be heard at all.

In either scenario, possession likely becomes legal, up to one ounce. Since there will be no legal or regulated market - either because the case is held up in court - or if the case is thrown out; what we are left with is decriminalization, not legalization, please do not confuse the two terms, they are not interchangeable.

~ You also write: "If the new DUI limit proves a problem, it can be tweaked"

We have done the research, there are no case laws indicating your statement to be true. Once a DUI policy becomes law, they only grow more strict, they are never relaxed. Even though MJ impairment is not relative to alcohol impairment, the misguided voting public simply does not understand the nuances of the argument. From their perspective, to try to relax green DUI limits, would be the equivalent of trying to raise blood alcohol impairment limits from 0.08, back to 0.10 - I think we can all agree, this will never happen.

The DUI(C) provisions under I-502 are an extension of police powers, and are not necessarily indicative of actual guilt of impairment. I-502 does not include the right of rebuttable presumption. The scientifically disproved limits put innocent people at risk of arrest and any subsequent penalties.

The seriousness of the repercussions of these DUIC limits have been downplayed by the I-502 campaign, and its supporters.

15 states currently have per se DUIC statutes, ranging from zero tolerance to 5ng, all of which allow rebuttable presumption, which means your right to a defense in court. Taking away the right of defense is what is most dangerous about the per se statutes in this law. This will guarantee conviction rates, and since science already proves heavy users can test much higher than the proposed limits while sober, innocent people, especially mmj patients, are at risk of conviction.

Please take the time to understand how serious this situation is. This indefensible per se DUI is an extension of police powers, allowing it to pass will be just one more freedom we have sacrificed in the name of a perceived security. There is a push nationwide to implement such provisions, but they are baseless in proving actual danger or risk to public safety. Colorado has experienced a 9% drop in traffic fatalities since their medical marijuana laws have come into effect.

All 50 states can already charge for driving under the influence of any drug, this is already a crime! Under current statutes, you have a right of defense, and the prosecution has to prove impairment, otherwise known as innocent until proven guilty - which should be the foundation of every law we pass.

Passage of I-502 risks setting a precedent for the remaining 35 states without per se (guilty until proven innocent). We have to look at the big picture, what we are doing is not only to defend Washington State law, we are trying to protect innocent people from conviction nationwide!

The vitriol and conjecture brought against Patients Against I-502 is unfounded. We have all been working hard to reform marijuana laws, to assert that we want to see innocent people charged with possession is completely baseless. We did not write the laws that presently exist, we are simply trying to prevent more laws from being written that can wrongfully convict innocent people of marijuana charges.

We still continue to fight for marijuana law reform, but see a clear and present danger if I-502 is passed under it's present form.

>You cite: "If 502 passes, our state will have actually legalized and regulated marijuana use for adults"

I use the word "state" here to mean both that (a) state law will have changed, and (b) the residents of our state will have accomplished an unprecedented political step forward, which is true whether the feds are able to nullify parts of it.

For all the panic about the DUI blood-test, realize that performing this test requires probable cause and cannot be done by the officer.

To all those opposing this initiative, it has to come down to what your alternative is to passing this, and how many people would be saved from arrest by passing it this year instead of waiting until whatever the alternative is, perhaps passing in 2016, perhaps not.

Instead of sabotaging our best chance at a very near term decrease of arrest for our friends and family members, those concerned should be getting this passed, and working on a followup initiative to tweak the parts of the initiative they don't like, and pressuring the legislature to do the same.

Chris Green I'm sorry but your flat out wrong! There is already a lot of precedent for cops being able to draw blood involuntarily at traffic stops. There is Nothing stupid or paranoid about being against a bill that would criminalize sober driving! Many medical patients test at more than twice the proposed level after 7 days WITHOUT cannabis. Anyone whose ever used cannabis can tell you it doesn't impare you for weeks so why should be subject to a DUID weeks later. Furthermore just because a bad law would be difficult to enforce doesn't make it a good law.
I-502 is a huge step in the wrong direction for Washington. It is not worth decriminalizing simple possesion of small amounts if it means every cannabis user is subject to a much more serious DUID charge. Make no mistake DUID is a serious offense.
Also of concern I-502 does not allow for the home growing of cannabis, I question the value of decriminalization of cannabis if growing it is still completely illegal. By not addressing this important side of the issue we we continue to allow a black market to develop in Washington. It also will do little to halt the exponential growth in the number of non violent offenders who our filling up our prisons.
It is already illegal to drive while impaired by cannabis in the state of Washington, there is no need for this new DUID provision. The existing system of medical marijuana laws (while far from perfect) is a much better model for the future cannabis policy than I-502. I know many of us yearn for reform but it is critical to see this bill for what it is, an attempt to subvert the marijuana reform movement and divide us amongst eachother.

I-502 wrong for Washington, Wrong for patients

@26, nice list, but you obviously are unaware of the cost to patients giving up driving privileges, and I am not talking about money.

In home health nursing, when a patient loses their driving privileges we have to call in a social worker as the implications from loss of independence create a whole new set of problems for the sick and disabled.

There is no bus service in many rural areas. There are often no taxis, but taxis are very expensive on a limited budget and not at all feasible. There is no light rail outside of major cities and that is really nice that you mention "bum a ride". How often do you taxi around a disabled person? There are not enough volunteers to go around.

Don't believe me, go to Catholic Services or any place that provides caregivers for chores and driving for patients. There is a waiting list! We tried to find someone to help out when I am not doing well, without success. And I need very little help....

The costs to the state have not been considered either. Take driving privileges away from patients and now most of them qualify for special and expensive social services, which do not have enough funding as it is. So now you have patients who can't get help, can't drive and are very ill. Guess what happens?

Think this through. The implications are far greater than you are imagining.

Well said, NurseMimi!

Medical pot smokers are the biggest hypocrites of the far left. Moronic selfish scum who really don't care about getting healthy, they just want to be high while not letting anyone else be high.

@29 Says the person on social services who supports the Tea Party.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Ben Franklin

First
of all lets be honest 502 isn't even close to legalization. All that
it would do is remove the penalties for possession of one ounce or less
and even then only for those over 21. Under 502 people will still go to
prison for growing a plant! Admittingly its better than nothing but
not when it comes at the price of a DUID measure.
The DUID
component of I-502 will make it illegal for almost any cannabis user in
Washington (including medical patients) to drive for days or weeks after
last using cannabis. That is the pure and simple truth of a 5ng/ml
limit. The pathetic arguments that NAW/ NORML offer all boil down to
either probable cause or psuedo science that claims that THC somehow
will magically be out of peoples blood much quicker than has ever
previously been seen. Anyone with a ounce of common sense knows that
LEO (law enforcement officers) can and will use the mere smell (or what
they claim to be the smell) of cannabis as probably cause. Under
Washington's existing implied consent law a driver is required to give a
blood sample if the LEO has probably cause to believe they are driving
impaired or lose their license for at least a year. I-502 will redefine
impairment to mean anyone who is over 5ng/ml limit. Therefore the LEO
could reasonably demand a blood sample
merely because they found
cannabis in a vehicle. Essentially 502 would mean that instead of being
arrested for simple possession anyone found to be in possession of
cannabis while driving will now be arrested for the more serious DUID
charge. There is a reason prosecutors are for 502 it will let them give
cannabis users more time in jail and higher fines!

Secondly for
some reason 502 does not allow for homegrowing. The NAW people would
have us believe this is because it is somehow innately dangerous to grow
cannabis, it is not. The dangerous of growing cannabis can be broken
down into three categories LEOs, thieves and electrical fires.
Obviously LEOs would no longer be a danger if homegrowing was legal.
Simmilarly in a world where homegrowing was permitted thieves would be
much less of a problem, the basic rules of supply and demand tell us
that the value of cannabis would drop dramatically with more people
allowed to grow it. Legal growers could also call LEOs in the event of a
robbery (imagine that LEOs actually protecting or serving) thus
significantly raising the risk for thieves. A combination of more risk
and less reward would deter most would be "weed thieves". Finally legal
growers would have access to licensed electricians not only reducing
the risks of electrical fires but also
stimulating the economy.

Next
the provision of I-502 that restricts the sale of cannabis to a handful
of licensed dealers is written so broadly that many lawyers have stated
that a felony charge could be leveled against someone who passed a
joint because they "delivered" cannabis. If I-502 was really interested
in legalization then why restrict the production of cannabis in such a
way that it virtually guarantees continued black market activity? Not
to mention the fact that I-502s corporate sponsors will no doubt expect
to receive a monopoly on those incenses thus giving control of WA's
cannabis industry to handful of out of state companies.

Finally
the fact that the 5ng/ml DUID threshold has no basis in science
whatsoever. The US Department of Transportation has said as much. Even
more damming for NORML their own director Allen St Piere has said "We
fully recognize the per se DUI marijuana provisions in I-502 are
arbitrary, unnecessary, and unscientific," Yet you continue to try to
force this on the people of WA despite the fact that there are real
alternatives to 502.

If NORML has an intelligent response to
anything I've said I would love to hear it. So far all I've seen is
insults and insinuations towards anyone with concerns about 502. In
many cases NORML/ NAW has simply censored questions and resorted to
petty personal attack. It makes me wonder if they even really believe in
502 or if they're just shills at this point. Those of us against I-502
are not a tiny minority or a fringe group, we are real people who have
read the initiative and are not prepared to give up our necessary
liberties for the illusion of temporary safety.