Savage Love Episode 287


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Lady, you should not be fucking someone who refuses to get tested.

Scenario A: he really does use condoms all the time and therefore thinks he's totally safe and doesn't need to get tested. ---> he's an IDIOT. Even people who have safe sex all the time need verification, and it is good sexual practice to be getting tested, especially if he's in the habit of sex with people he's not in a relationship with.

Scenario B: he's worried/"knows" he's infected but hasn't done anything about it and doesn't want to face up to it. ----> this makes him a mega-skeeze, because he's willing to put your health at risk to avoid facing up to his own demons, and he's also willing to LIE to you about the reason he doesn't want to be tested.

Scenario C: as Dan (somewhat worryingly) floated, he "knows" he's infected AND is getting regular treatment. This strikes me as really unlikely. Someone who is getting treatment for a chronic disease shouldn't be gun-shy about being tested for that disease. And either way, he's still LYING TO YOU! DO NOT FUCK THIS MAN.
It's one thing to have a one night stand with someone without having an STI test.

It's a whole nother level of stupid to sleep with someone who actively refuses to get tested.

Is HIV a dealbreaker? Well, it's a lifelong disease. The medications it requires are expensive and if you don't have them, then you can die in some intensely unpleasant ways. Even if it's a slow killer you have to live with what amounts to an axe over your head, a reminder of your morality. You basically have to structure your life around managing it. And if you have it other people will be wary of being in a relationship with you, for fear of contracting a lifelong, potentially deadly disease.

Unlike the stigma of herpes... or even getting pregnant... the fear of HIV is well justified. I would probably only sleep with someone who had it if I thought there was serious trust (and LTR material) between us. Yes that sucks for the HIV-positive person but hopefully if you're decent you don't prioritize your ability to get laid over somebody's future.

But if he doesn't trust you enough to get tested, why should you trust him enough to protect you from the disease? What if a condom broke? If he's not man enough to fess up now, is he going to be man enough to warn you to get the drug cocktail (which can prevent HIV if taken early)? Dan seems to assume that this guy, if he's hiding HIV, is on the meds. I'd say that's being pretty generous.
Gah reminder of *mortality. ;)
While I agree that not every sexual slight should be rounded up to rape and I would agree with you when you stop short of calling this scenario rape, I disagree with the way you handled the second call this week.

The woman whose friend was roughing her up and bypassed her clear and succinct "cut it the fuck out" to DO IT AGAIN?? He doesn't get the "maybe he's done this to other women with orgasms all around" excuse because it amounts to victim blaming. If only those other women had spoken up he'd never have behaved that way!

If he had actually stopped once she expressed she wasn't into rough sex, he'd get the benefit of a doubt for being a ass who should have known he needed to be upfront with this kink.

A sexual encounter where she says stop and he does it again, and one where she describes him as looking "possessed"? That guy is scarier, even if he backed off this time, and she should tell him as much...while being wary of putting herself alone in a room with him again.

I don't think it amounts to victim blaming... Dan was quite firm that this guy was an asshole, and that not discussing the fact that he wanted it rough beforehand was a big no no, as was not stopping when she asked him too. Victim blaming is saying that the victims somehow brought the attack on themselves. It's quite another thing to point out the possibility that the offender, for a lack of a better word, didn't act out of malice and that perhaps a good talking to would set him straight.

It is true that maybe if someone had stood up to him he would have changed his behavior. You seem to assume this guy is a jackass through and through, but many people are jackasses out of ignorance. It's unclear of whether this guy falls into that category, but he might. It doesn't excuse the behavior -- at all -- he should know not to do that by virtue of being an adult. And it's not the caller's burden to reform him. But maybe it would help. And it might make her feel more at peace, if he realized his mistake and apologized sincerely.
I think the ball bustee guy is just suffering the standard madonna/whore thing. Right now it is going to be him being wierd about being kicked in the crotch but eventually (especially if they ever have kids) it is going to devolve into any sexual interaction leaving her lonely and frustrated.

Some guys are just never going to be ready for that kind of intimate emotional relationship combined with an active sexual relationship.
The woman in the open marriage whose husband got "alpha-male pouty?" He doesn't want non-monogamy. He agreed to it so he wouldn't lose her, as she came out and said directly. He's not turned on by it, he's hurt by it. Either she can live with a monogamous relationship or she can't. Her call. He can't, he's just trying to.
Yay double standards! Girl has a sexual harassment problem, let's all freak out.

Guy gets straight-up RAPED & it's a gray area? That's fucked up.
@6, to piggy back on what #7 said, you can't assume the rough sex guy's previous sex partners were "victims." I am one of those women Dan was talking about who probably would have responded with thunderous applause and orgasms. Listening to that woman's call reminded me of a guy I used to know....GOD I miss that guy...ugh........what were we talking about again?
ganging up on #6:
_ bypassed her clear and succinct "cut it the fuck out" to DO IT AGAIN?? _

I am not sure it was as clear and succinct to him as she felt it was. The way she described it to Dan was that she said "Hay not cool, lay off" which can reasonably be interpreted by someone who is horny and had a couple drinks in them as "this is going too fast, slow down and maybe we can get there once I warm up".

Was I the only one who got the impression that she wasn't really telling us the real story of what happened? Her giggly, nervous, "did I do something wrong by objecting to having my hair pulled and being roughed up?" makes me wonder if she actually *didn't* object and instead had a shaming and unhappy encounter. Now pretending to Dan that she did take appropriate action, in order to, once again, get that male approval.

I hope I'm reading this wrong, but there was just something about her manner during the call that had my antennae quivering.
Dan, I normally am pretty spot on with you...but saying a woman is unreasonable because she finds it odd a guy she's been flirting/conversing with flat out refuses to get a friggin' STI test before they hook up because he CLAIMS he always uses condoms ... that just seems crazy to me.

I get it if it's a one night stand, met-you-at-the-bar-tonight type hookup ... it'd be pretty odd to force them to take an STI test before you round 2nd base. But these two have been sort of planning this encounter for a while, and if you have the time, why NOT practice safe sex?

If he refuses to get a test for such a flakey reason ("I KNOW it will come back negative") then I don't think he's worth banging. How selfish is he going to be in other aspects if he's such a jerk about going to get tested with this girl?
To the woman who asked her new partner to get STI testing and he said no with the reason being that he always uses condoms and would be using condoms with this woman: How about this woman change her request, and ask him to just get tested for STI's that condoms don't protect you against/ STI's transmitted by oral.

This guy sounds a bit stupid to believe that condoms protect you against everything when I'm pretty sure the box warns you that it DOESN'T!
the sulking husband issue? what about the possibility that being 'open', or even 'poly', doesn't preclude one from having feelings?? or from feeling insecure now and again? seems to me the problem is that the wife has some unhealthy need to 'fix' her husband, that it's not ok for him to have his own response to what happens. i've been in a similar situation a few times in my relationship history, especially from males, and when we talked it through what i always got back was:
" don't invalidate my feelings - yes you're allowed to sleep with whoever you choose, and i'm glad you've had a good time, but i can still _feel_ a bit fragile, just let me have my feelings and deal with them - don't treat me like a child".
so i think that this woman should treat her husband like an adult: accept that when he says yes to being 'open' he means it; give him space to process his own feelings; and maybe have a conversation that runs 'is there anything you need from me to help you feel loved/reassured/valued, after i've been with someone else'... without trying to 'fix' his feelings, or make everything about her.
GAAH! My name happens to be "Matt Barber." My wife and I almost died laughing.
In response to the feedback given to the young man looking for advice on how what to negotiate with his partner before a rape scene. Great job on emphasizing negotiation. I felt some mention of making sure that your scene can not be heard by others was worth mentioning, be it by neighbors or adjacent rooms in a hotel. I have heard stories of the cops being called to the scene of a rape or beating or abduction in progress because someone vanilla heard someone in distress or a security camera caught the license plate of a car where a man pushed a woman into the trunk of a car. Be aware that vanilla people can't know that it's consentual.
@2 (Nancy) - Thanks for turning us onto the MBMBaM podcast! "Entertaining" doesn't even begin to describe it.
@16: Your example seems reasonable, but I don't think it's what this woman is going through. Your partners said "don't invalidate my feelings - yes you're allowed to sleep with whoever you choose, and i'm glad you've had a good time, but i can still _feel_ a bit fragile, just let me have my feelings and deal with them - don't treat me like a child". This guy actively sulks and makes her feel guilty for doing what he's supposedly okayed.
About the ball-busting situation, I wonder if part of the problem is that the ball-busting might set up a power dynamic that might bleed over to the non-sexual side of the relationship. Part of the appeal of ball-busting might be the submission, the humiliation, the pain, and it might be hard to see the ball-buster as an equal in the relationship if you know that she is later going to be dominating you. For some guys, it might require building a wall between their roles in the bedroom and their roles in the relationship, if that's even possible. Not only do you submit to her, but she has the power to control your sexual satisfaction, plus she knows your secret.
If someone says no and it is not listened to - it is sexual assault.

Not rape perhaps but it is sexual assault - please call it that.

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