Savage Love Episode 310


I'm not voting for either fascist warmonger, thank you. I'm sick of the two-party system - the lesser of two evils is still evil. I'd rather vote my conscience. And I support marriage equality, I do; but I think it's just a tiny bit more important that our government STOP KILLING PEOPLE OVERSEAS. Obama hasn't stopped it, he's made it worse, so I ain't voting for the bastard.
I Agree with 1.

Vote for Gary Johnson, get your head outta your but and vote for someone who is not in the same parties that have made the USA the most hated country on the planet!! Obama has made the US worse, being made fun of all over the world, he is terrible, brought you the NDAA, among other things you will soon see will make you cringe with shame and fear for having voted for him!
Same idea as Dhmm, except that I'll be voting for Green Party candidate Jill Stein. The choice between Stein and Johnson hardly matters, since neither of them will win, but it's important that those of us who are dissatisfied with the two-party system let our voices be heard.

One caveat: Those who live in swing states might prefer to adopt a different voting strategy.
That "partial disclosure" shit Dan advocated for the guy who was abused by his HS teacher is all wrong. There is no way any decent sister would hear a story like that without freaking out and demanding more information. It's all or nothing with this, dude: tell your sister the whole story, or refuse to discuss it at all (slash lie). And I don't have the experience or training to back this up, but is it possible your unwillingness to tell your close family members about this may be a sign that you're not as "over it" as you claim?

I disagree that it must be all or nothing. The sister can know this happened, that her brother has dealt with it and is fine, and the sister's ONLY job is then to be supportive and let her brother know she's there if he ever decides to he wants to share more or open up. She doesn't have an automatic right to the deep, dark, dirty details, as they are his to keep or share.
@5: I'm not saying she has a "right" to anything, and I'm not going to dictate to her what her "job" is. I'm saying - well, exactly what I said: Realistically, I cannot imagine a sister hearing part of a story like that and backing away. I don't know how close they are, but if I were the guy's sister, I would assume his refusal to discuss it was a symptom of a greater problem, and I would push the matter. On the other hand, if he told me absolutely nothing, or lied, I would drop it.

Only he knows what his sister is likely to do if he drops a teaser like that on her.
@4 We already know that the sister is not only capable of hearing just part of the story and then backing off but initiating backing off, because that's what she did when his ex told the story. Sounds like she's got his boundaries as a priority which bodes well for hearing part of the story and respecting his wish to not talk about it anymore.
Just copying what #7 mentioned. I also agree

@4 We already know that the sister is not only capable of hearing just part of the story and then backing off but initiating backing off, because that's what she did when his ex told the story. Sounds like she's got his boundaries as a priority which bodes well for hearing part of the story and respecting his wish to not talk about it anymore.
Posted by Allek
Dan, your comment to the pregnant woman was spot on. Heh.

Pregnancy can be really sexy for a few months, it is new and interesting...but most guys find it a little weird towards the end.

I can see how pregnancy might goob someone out in the last trimester - you can actually *see* the baby moving inside the abdomen, like something right out of Alien.
eww. I can't imagine banging a preggers chick.

I don't even like having sex with women who've HAD kids.
Unfortunately, about pregnancy sex, Dan is right on, at least with how it was with my husband. "Fat" turns him off. The idea of a little "alien in there" turns him off. Feeling the baby move inside me turns him off. Yes it did hurt to hear that, and know that while I needed sex more than ever, he was not even willing to cuddle and give me a hand job. My advice is to get a good vibrator and accept that he cannot change what he cannot change. Still makes him pretty selfish but you can't force it. And yes, keep him out of the room, or at least away from between your legs during the birth. It is hard enough to get sex back on track without having to compete with a mental loop in his head of what else that part of your body is used for.
By the way, if you are breast feeding? When he pisses you off, just squirt him with your breast milk. Most men who are weirded out by pregnancy sex are also weirded out by breast milk. It can be a potent weapon. Just saying.
What. An. Asshole. Way to deny the lived reality of great chunks of population, Dan.
Not everyone is weirded out by pregnancy or the idea of babies in there. Not every man is scarred for life by the sight of babies coming out of a vulva. It sounds as if the couple encountered a common sexual dynamic, which is that the man does something the woman doesn't enjoy, she tells him so, subtly at first, and then, usually more assertively. After the man does that thing for the fiftieth time, the woman "barks" or "snaps" at him, and then she gets to be the bitch.
Have we done any studies about the amount of porn watching and aversive responses to pregnancy and childbirth? Because in the porniverse, childbirth is unnatural. Yeah, I thought not.
Dan, if Terry was in a car accident that busted up his mouth, or had a massive hemorrhoid that required surgery, and you witnessed these injuries in all their glory, and then after he fully recovered, wanted to resume a normal sex life, would your dick wilt every time you looked at his mouth or his ass? And would you expect him to be understanding about this, and feel guilty for letting you see him in a less than perfectly sexy state? If a man wrote it and said " I had a some swelling after my vasectomy and now my wife can't stand the sight of my (fully recovered) dick, would you be sympathetic to her? I doubt it. So why should seeing his wife give birth be such a long term boner killer? I would ask why men are such pussies, but it would clearly be an insult to pussies.

And if a man doesn't find pregnant ladies sexy, then fine, but he is just going to have to suck it up, because that it what a grown up in a committed relationship does. You close your eyes to temporary, unavoidable lapses in your partners attractiveness, particularly considering you got her in that condition in the first place.

@15, thank you! That whole response from Dan I kept saying, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you! Why is it always the woman's responsibility to be perfectly attractive, take care of the child, and just be "patient" with their weak husbands. It takes two to make a baby and since the woman has to go through pregnancy and birth, the least their man can do is shut the fuck up and fuck their usually horny pregnant wives. Jeez, I can kind of understand the delivery room thing, but GGG should extend to fucking your pregnant wife. That is sometimes the horniest they have ever been! Just because you're icked out by it Dan, doesn't mean you should allow *straight* men to get out of it. That's part of being married to woman sometimes, as well as menstrual cycle. Get the fuck over it men.
@13 (SeattleKim), bonus points if babydaddy is lactose intolerant.

I am a straight female, and I've watched my older sister give birth. It was a human explosion; the goriest thing I've ever seen outside of a horror flick, and for a second I actually thought I'd lose my sister and niece, so much BLOOD! If she herself could have seen it, she'd agree because she's more squeamish than I am. I will not fault any man for finding that traumatizing, and I will give my husband fair warning and choice when it comes to where he stands during childbirth. It was certainly the best birth control for me since the pill.

So yeah, it IS scary looking. Can I keep my feminist card?

Libido as it relates to prenancy is different for everyone. I really feel bad for the caller, I hope they can get back on track.
Dan's advice to the pregnant woman is pretty good, even if it doesn't fit into the world some people wish for.

As much as the guy may be feeling weird about his wife's pregnancy, he may also just have a boner-killing sad about fucking up while fucking his wife, and if that's the case, her inquisition is probably not helping things at all.

@14: In my experience, women are also very sensitive to feedback in the sack that is anything that can possibly be construed as less than encouraging and positive. So, to anyone, man or woman, who wants to turn what may be a small deal into a Big Deal: Get snotty, mid-sex act, with your sex partner about what they're doing or the way they're doing it.
@17: What you said.
As a father, let me say, buck up and satisfy your woman. Presumably, this pregnancy was something you both agreed to, and your wife (or girlfriend) has needs. Be a good lover and get it done. Besides, you'll not be getting any play for a while, so you'd better get your fill now.
Sex can be a little scary when you're talking late pregnancy. No matter how careful, prepared, or thoughtful of position you are, it's hard to keep that little worry about "what if I'm hurting her or the baby" out of your head.

I'm squeamish naturally. I stayed up by her shoulders. I still caught a glimpse or two. My buddies with kids all said basically "Yeah, there's blood and you will deal when the time comes." They were right. After things healed up, never gave it a second thought.
Air on the side of caution? Noooo. It's 'err on the side of caution'.

That is all.
Not sure who you're correcting, Pez, but "Air on the Side of Caution" would be a great band name, no?

I can understand fear of hurting baby, fear of jizzing on baby (is that possible? just turned myself off anyway), maybe even fear of making love to a swollen, cranky lady.

But Nano, I like your philosophy, and you make an excellent point about future sex. GGG gold star for you.
Besides, when the tummy starts to show, the boobies start to grow!
I don't really have any problem with Dan saying that being down between the legs is not for all guys--it's not for all gals, either! I have a friend who is a pregnant, feminist doctor who's attended several births in her residency and SHE'S squicked out by the sight of it! It's a personality thing, not a sexism thing. Although, it's worth pointing out that not all men are squicked out by it--I know plenty who aren't. My dad watched both me and my sister come out and let's just say that this did not save my sister, who had the bedroom next to my parents', from some super-awkward nights when we were kids.

But...having the guy stay out of the delivery room? Are you kidding me? What is this, 1955? Fuck no, you are not required to watch the kid come out but if you can't even be IN THE ROOM to support your partner as she gives birth to your child, you just fail, full stop. I don't know one guy who hasn't been with or doesn't expect to be with his partner when his kid is being born, and it's not because every man I know is a saint, trust me. It's the 21st century, Dan. Seriously.

As for pregnancy sex? Never done it. Lots of people seem to enjoy it. I can see how it might be weird later in pregnancy but, at the very least, you can attend to your lady's sexual needs in other ways. Your husband couldn't even bring his delicate little self to cuddle with you or get you off manually, Seattlekim? I'm sorry, but your husband sounds like more of a baby than your baby.
That's funny. A lot of guys feel entitled to act like complete slobs, dress like slackers, piss and belch and fart in front of their wives, and expect the woman to still treat them like a stud in the bedroom. But if their wife GETS PREGNANT or god forbid GIVES BIRTH, she is no longer attractive to them. Solution: find a real man.
Cart before the horse, people. You can't very well blame him for reacting poorly to a traumatic event that is still two months in his future. Try to stay on topic, okay?

Frankly, from her tone of voice and the way she described the chain of events, the vibe that I got from her is that she is one of those people who thinks the only healthy thing to do when something comes up is to process it to death with A Huge Discussion. The fact that they had four consecutive sexual events that resulted in four consecutive disappointments on her part and probably four consecutive Huge Discussions tends to point in that direction, too. (Medical checkup, srsly? Interrogations as to whether he still gets morning wood, srsly? If he were to treat you like that, he'd be telling you to go see a neurologist and get checked for brain tumors the first time you told him "not tonight, honey, I have a headache."

Then there is the fact that, as Dan notes, you are, hello? pregnant and huge, but men are not, as a rule, allowed to admit out loud that they notice that. You are very very different for the next few months, but he is expected to respond to you identically. People argue that it's perfectly legit to lose desire for someone who has let themselves go, but expect the spouse of a pregnant woman to completely ignore that she has gotten enormous. News flash: people are not generally ABLE to turn arousal on and off at will. Hard-ons are not under conscious control. But putting them under the microscope the very first time one fails to materialize is a good way to make sure that it will keep happening. (But hey, more to Process!)

Yes, maybe he's not feeling it right now. I bet you will demand a free pass after the birth when it's you who doesn't feel like fucking. If you want some flexibility when it's your turn to not be in the mood, you had better be able to relax and not turn this into a federal case now.

TL;DR: you need to take a deep breath, tell your Type A personality to back the fuck off, and try to enjoy and see how things go. Or you can keep going with the Huge Discussions, and watch the situation deteriorate.
p.s. He's lying about the morning wood. You are already feeling unattractive and rejected, are are obviously taking it pretty hard. He's "admitting" to potential physical causes in order to spare your feelings. At this point he dares not say _anything_ that could potentially confirm your fears, because God knows how long the processing discussions would get then.
Wait...wait, wait. "PERSON" up there? As in someone deserving of full, legal rights and protections, person?

Yikes. Are we now, unwittingly, damaging future arguments in support of abortion/reproductive rights?

Carful with the diction, Dan. I'm not sayin' that you're sayin' it. But I AM sayin' that they'll say YOU'RE sayin' it.

If'n you get what I'm sayin'.
@Petticoat Philosopher Actually, advised that if the father of the baby wants to be present for the delivery, he should not actually watch the baby come out. He suggested that it would be better if he is standing by her side holding her hand. Of course he is not talking about all men. Some guys can handle watching the baby come out, some guys can't. Unfortunately, the guys who can't handle it don't always know that they might have a negative reaction until after it has happened.
Heh, this call reminded me of the pregnancy sex scene in Knocked Up. If that's the problem, the guy can surely figure out a way to pleasure her that isn't super squicky to him (maybe spooning or doggy style or some other position in which her belly isn't between them?).

Aside from that, though, I think a lot of his problem is her ridiculous overreaction. She's putting too much pressure on him by putting him on a deadline, telling him that if his dick doesn't work now they won't get to have sex until after the baby isn't a baby anymore, essentially. Maybe he has an actual medical condition, but it seems a lot more likely to me that the pressure of having to perform before the baby is due is probably worrying his dick away.
"find a real man. "

"I'm sorry, but your husband sounds like more of a baby than your baby."

Man-shaming. Never gets old for some, does it?
@23, No, jizzing on baby is not possible unless there is something really, really wrong and if that were the case you wouldn't be having sex anyway. The cervix is stopped up tight during pregnancy, there's a mucus plug in there, ain't nothin' getting in or out till it's time.
@14, Dan mentioned that not every man feels squicked out by pregnancy.

Personally I find it and childbirth gross. I don't think porn is to blame for that -- maybe it is partly lack of exposure to it, or maybe just the fact that it's inherently bloody and rather traumatic.

Also, caller herself mentioned she needs to work on being better at communicating her needs in the sack. It sounds like she tried hinting or implying without explicitly saying something, it didn't work, she got frustrated, and she snapped, which is not the way adults should communicate.
There are no absolutes. Some guys need to be in the waiting room with Ricky Ricardo and his cigars. I was down in the catcher's position, calling for some inside heat, and that was fine for me. And my libido hasn't called in sick once.

But here's the thing: I enjoyed my wife while she was pregnant. I marveled at how the changes in her body gave me a new version of woman to fuck every few weeks. I'm not a breast man, but vive le change! I loved cradling her belly while we did it doggie style. I went down on her the night before the first one came, and when she was tired of being pregnant the second time she called for another tongue lashing.

I've digressed. I had a great time with pregnancies, and I wasn't freaked out by being there at birth. Draw your conclusions. I was going to continue about the wife's micromanagement, but I distracted myself and am going to play Eight and a Half Months with my wife.

Daaaaayum! I respect the advice you gave the pregnant lady, especially the part where you told her her hubbie may longer find her attractive enough to screw. I don't think I've heard anyone have the balls to say it out loud, and I respect it.

You are a hot mess ;)
OK, I'm sorry, I hate to be a pedant, but did Dan Savage, the great champion of sexual health and enemy of all anti-sex conservatives just draw a distinction between "statutory rape" and "actual rape". Oh my stars.
Many men are turned off by pregnancy. It's not something we have conscious control over. So "bucking up" isn't going to get it up. But it's not really tragic that you're going to go without sex for a few months. Get over it and move on.

16 Lakewood Dr Vancouver
On_the_Spectrum's. remarks. are. obtuse.
Many men are turned off by pregnancy and find it disgusting. The woman's boyfriend is clearly trying to spare her feelings. She simply has to get over her narcissism and come to terms with the fact that he doesn't find her attractive at the moment. It's not a conscious choice on his part and no amount of "bucking up" will change that. Not having sex at the moment, even if she's horny, is no tragedy.

16 Lakewood Dr, Vancouver, BC
No need to shame men if they don't do anything shameful, Snowguy. But not even being able to TOUCH your wife (for a cuddle) when she's pregnant? Or, if you can't hack intercourse, give her a "loving assist," as Dan would say? That is fucking shameful.

I hardly think I'm being harsh. I'm not saying that every man is obligated to be aroused by his heavily pregnant wife--there's no point in saying so since, as others have pointed out, that's not the way hard-ons work. But to deny her all physical intimacy, even non-sexual intimacy? Grow the hell up. It's pregnancy, not leprosy. Sorry, but I gotta call 'em like I see 'em.
@34 Steeeeverino, HOT. I've never been pregnant, but thanks for giving us single and childless chicks something to look forward to! (To Dan, thanks for giving us single and childless chicks EXTREME anxiety about becoming pregnant. :)

My good male friend has told me on many occasians that he finds pregnant women attractive. My mother (and I hope this REALLY goobs you out, Dan!) has told me that while she was pregnant with me, she experienced a really high libido and had a lot of sex with my dad. So, pregnant lady, I think if you're really horny (and I've heard that pregnancy makes you insanely horny), my advice to you is what Dan's advice always is to all the MEN who can't get what they need from their wives: Fuck one of the men out there who love fucking pregnant chicks! Cheat! Cheat! No, I don't know if that's really the best advice, but if your husband isn't fucking you because he's grossed out by the fact that you are pregnant, he's NOT GGG and he's a little pansy asshole. And I would have a serious discussion with him about what your needs are while pregnant and what this is doing to you emotionally and how you are beginning to resent him.

The loss of his erection, however, may have had nothing to do with how you look pregnant. I am sorry on behalf of Dan Savage that he just burdened you with that insecurity.
@ bella

Hmm. I'm not sure if I've been reading the same dan savage you have.

Dan is telling people who've tried everything to get what they need from their partners and can't to go elsewhere. He isn't telling partners who can't get what they want for a few months to do it.
For the pastor caller (and others who may have found themselves in a similar situation): Getting out of your line of work can be extremely difficult. Check out The Clergy Project (clergyproject[dot]org) - it's a confidential support network for clergymen and ex-clergymen who have moved or are moving away from their faith.

I can understand the advice to men who are easily squicked out or afraid that they might be squicked out by seeing their female partner's vagina open up and spit out a baby to not watch that part of the delivery, but you failed to call the scared husband and his scared dick out on this one.

Yes, the caller shouldn't convene a blue-ribbon panel on the dearth of her husband's erections, but she does have a right to say, "Suck it up, you have responsibilities to do what you can to get me off even when you're not altogether gung-ho about it, just like I have those responsibilities to you."

Dan, I remember a LW or caller from a few years back who had been the primary care-giver for her husband who had a degenerative disease. I recall her describing that his care sometimes required her to extract feces manually from her husband's body, and that any sexual feelings that she used to have for him were gone and that she now regarded him as a child. The husband had expressed a desire to perform oral sex on her and she wasn't comfortable with that. You told her to sit on his face and do this for him.

Dan, if you can tell a woman who had been reduced to being a full-time nurse to her dying husband to sit on his face for his sake, you should also be telling men that they can put up with the squicky body-changes that their female partners experience for a few months, ignore or get over the fact that she's got a baby growing there on the opposite side of her cervix*, and do their GGG duty to meet some of their partner's needs for sex and physical intimacy.

*And Dan, men fuck their partners in their asses, into rectums that lead directly up into their feces and mucous-filled intestines. Men eat pussy, putting their faces right up against openings that spew urine, mucous, and blood. Women suck men's cocks, cocks that they piss out of and don't generally wipe clean after they do. Both men and women who are GGG happily eat ass when it pleases our partners. Our bodies are disgusting, and we're generally sticking our tongues and fingers and genitals against and inside other people's bodies where little or nothing comes between us and their filthy bodily organs and excretions. If a guy is squicked-out by the idea of the head of his cock pressing against the cervix of his pregnant partner, he hasn't really thought this through.
@43: Based on the apparent jury indictments she launched upon his a) losing erection and b) ejaculating too soon, I get the feeling that she never let it get as far as finding out whether finger-banging was an acceptable substitute for the time being.

sorry dan...your advice to not let men watch a birth if you want him to have sex with you again is so lame...if he has a problem with it, he needs to have a concrete milkshake - Harden the fuck up! she has to have sex again after pushing a life through there, so he can be strong enough to get over whatever issues are raised by watching.
For the Pastor caller, I am a pastor's wife and my husband and I have had similar issues. Early in our marriage it really upset me, after talking with my husband and some friends I am more ok with it. I just don't want him to lie to me when he does. I get that you and your wife may be struggling with the lust issue. Would she be willing to make some videos for you to watch later? Or pictures? I've discovered that there are photographers that do boudoir sessions that maybe an option too.
Is "My husband won't have sex with me because of my (mutually planned) pregnancy" an okay reason to cheat with one of the guys who is turned on by pregnancy? I suspect they are on craiglist. Bonus: no risk of pregnancy!