Savage Love Episode 313


The closing was good as far as it went, but incomplete. Mr Savage should take more credit for why straight people have HELPED to make it better (the suggestion by omission that Teh Straightz did it all by themselves out of the goodness of their hearts was nearly an LMB moment), as in large part it is due to non-straight people following the Savage line of playing the I Won't Accept Second-Class Treatment From You card to good effect. As it was, the closing felt like an acquiescent acceptance of the role of the spinster sister in the Victorian/Edwardian manor house.

On the interactive call about the mistress-turned-stepmother, that was probably about as plausible a scenario as possible to shine a favourable light on the now-couple and reinforce the caller's position. And it could even be entirely accurate and truthful. The caller has clearly swallowed the Shiny Happy People Pill, and I very much liked the gentle dissuasion from his wanting to shove it down his brother's throat as well. Most columnists in response to situations like this, when dealing with the person directly affected and not a step removed, default to recommending the Shiny Happy People Pill, but the Shiny Happy People Pill isn't for everybody. Not everyone has the right sort of constitution for it. Those for whom only truth will do may as well be left to make what they will of it, though it would seem unkind for any such to try to force an antidote on those for whom the Shiny Happy People Pill worked to good effect.
Thank you for the cathartic moment at the end of your podcast. Though I am far from a grammar nazi, I have found myself cringing at the end of each program. I feel completely free of that now. Thank you. Just knowing that it is a knowledgeable and intentional choice on your part makes all the difference. I am free.
Loved the answer to the guy with the brother who is mad at dad's long ago affair. One of the best things I've learned in life is that I am responsible for my own behaviour, and my own relationships, but I'm not responsible for the behaviour of other people, and for their relationships with each other.

It's not this guy's job to make sure his brother and his dad have a loving relationship. Good thing, too, because if it *were* his job, he'd probably mess it up - we never know as much about how other people feel and believe as we think we know, and the messing in their lives we do almost always, no matter how well intentioned, backfires. Firm kind boundaries are your best friend - use 'em.
I want to type a few words about about white male priviledge (sic) verses bullshit double standards for women, homos, and minorities like my bi-racial president. It seems like white male right wingers expect others to do things twice as good as them to be acceptable. I'm referencing a gay caller in today's podcast and our president's widely panned first debate performance. Oh and you can't show anger in a debate with winger's or they'll say your consumed by anger, and therefore unworthy to hold office or whatever. Right wingers churn out adequate, mediocre results and get away with it. And so should everyone else!
Wait... what did I miss in the monogam-ish caller? Dan says she was dishonest about sleeping with someone else, but the caller doesn't seem to indicate that at all.

What I got from that was that the caller wanted to hold "the huge concession" he's made by opening up in hostage for her being more receptive to pursuing conversations about the longer term nature of their relationship.

It doesn't work that way. You can't say "I did X, so why can't you do Y" - when X and Y are totally different things. Caller didn't say, "let's try being monogamish, if we can then discuss me moving closer to you" because that would make ZERO sense, but that is sort of what he wants now.

My advice, if you want to be monogamish, don't try to use it as leverage for other relationship issues. AND - you really need to solve those other issues, or end it. They are important to you, and you're walking down the fuzzy road of holding all sorts of things against her for not addressing the bigger issues.

Good luck!
As far as I've seen, people on the Left aren't worried about racy costumes for adults traumatizing children. The issue is that CHILDREN'S costumes are sexualized.

Also if you're an adult or teenage female, sexy is your only convenient option. Dressing sexy is fine, but HAVING to dress sexy if you want to participate in a national holiday is oppressive.
I appreciated the ending today... I've had more than one of my gay friends come out to me, and I'm always proud. I'm proud to support them, I am proud they feel comfortable enough to tell me and I am proud to support gay marriage as a straight woman and as a person overall.
My issue with Halloween costumes is not some pearl cluching "think of the children" but more that are that there just aren't that many non-sexy costumes out there, they push sexy looks on kids and they have this weird gender essentialism bullshit where like if a kid wants to dress up like cookie monster a boy gets a cookie monster costume, the girls is some weird dress witha googly eye headband. I am posting a picture in case you wanted to see it…

Oh and don't get me started on "sexy big bird" egads.

I want to see a sexy Mitt Romney and sexy Paul Ryan couples costume. Sexy Mitt Romney would be a Daisy-Duked little Michigan trooper uniform with fishnets and six-inch heels and a Mitt Romney mask and sexy Paul Ryan would be a teeny tiny little apron (from the time he stormed into a soup kitchen after all the work was done and grabbed a clean pot out of a dish drainer and pretended to be washing it for a photo shoot) with fishnets and six-inch heels and a Paul Ryan mask. Sexy RomneyRyan! It's the bar-tab-winninest couples costume of halloween 2012!!!
To the woman getting a divorce. Saying that divorce undermines the sanctity of marriage is an argument against legalizing divorce. It isn't an argument against legalizing gay marriage.

First off, don't agree that divorce undermines the sanctity of marriage. It doesn't and not a lot of people think it does. Divorce is what happens when something else undermines the sanctity of any given marriage. That is the relationship divorce has with undermining the sanctity of marriage.

Saying that divorce undermines marriage is like saying that umbrellas cause rain.

I am a very monogamous woman who values her marriage more than anything else in her life. I still think Dan makes a better argument about monogamy undermining the sanctity of marriage than any argument I've ever heard about divorce doing that.

So disagree with that assumption and then make them defend it, "You think divorce undermines the institution of marriage? I don't agree. I hate to break it to you but you were really deluding yourself if you thought legalizing gay marriage would stop or slow the divorce rate. I don't think we ever promised that or hinted that it would happen. I have no idea why you expected that. If you want no more divorce, and I honestly think that is a horrible idea, but if it's what you want, you need to try to ban divorce. I promise you, no gay marriage legislation in any direction will have any effect on the divorce rate. Sorry. You have been barking up the wrong tree."

I wanted to say about that Stank, I call my husband's stank my Valium. It doesn't turn me on but it relaxes me to smell it. When I had to travel back home to do an intervention on my brother, my husband went a long time without bathing and wore the same tee shirt the whole time so I could have that shirt to smell during that tense time.
I agree with Dan's point that we should lighten up about the "sexy _____" costumes, generally.

But sexy Sesame Street costumes are just plain wrong.
I was surprised Dan went so easy on the cross dressing dad. If he were into doing drag shows or cross dressing in his everyday life, I can see why it'd be important for his daughter to know, but that's not the case. He was telling her how he masturbates. What on earth for? So he tells her once (which I think is inappropriate), and it's come up a LOT since then? Again, why?

Sounds like he married two women without disclosing his cross dressing, and maybe that's a large part of why those marriages ended (Dan posited this, but I'm not sure the caller did so.). And in the wake of his second divorce, he is looking for validation of his sexual practices from his daughter? She seemed so concerned that he would feel rejected by her. It's not up to her to reject or accept his sexual practices; that's the job of a lover. Speculation: he's now scared to tell any prospective partners and is talking about it with his daughter as a sort of substitute, and that isn't cool. Gives me a creeper vibe, not because of the cross dressing at all, but because of the over sharing.
Also, re: the guy who loves his boyfriend's smell. Maybe the caller's BF just thinks he's a stinky guy (maybe even been told that by others) and kinda hates it, and it doesn't compute that you dig his stank. More "I really don't get it" than "you're a gross creepy guy for liking it." That said, he needs to know how you're perceiving what he's saying, that you're feeling very judged by him. That's the thing that needs to stop. He thinks it's weird or doesn't get it? So what? Like so many of our kinks/fetishes, it's not up to others to "get" it. It's not rational anyway. It's up to him to accept that you like smelling him (it really isn't that weird... most of us have sniffed the pillow of a lover who was out of town) and indulge you in it (which it sounds like he does). Now he just needs to learn to keep the comments to himself.
Hmmm...Dan, you say some very insightful things about the policing of male sexuality and how men feel the need to live up to certain tropes, like the idea that ALL MEN EVERYWHERE like porn. Well-said and well-done. Except I'm confused, because this is a myth that you yourself perpetuate on your show all the time and it's always driven me nuts! Yes, MOST men like porn but, it's true, not ALL men do and it's not necessarily because there's something wrong with them. I get that you're often trying to make the larger point to jealous girlfriends that their boyfriends' taste for porn is normal, not deviant, but you're still part of the problem when you make the sweeping statement that all men like porn. If this is not, in fact, what you really believe, as you seemed to make clear in this most recent podcast, then stop saying it! Stop contributing to the pathologizing of men who don't like all of the things that most men like. If you don't like the male sexuality police--and good on you for bringing this issue up--don't be part of it!
@14: this. He often cites a study that was canceled because the researchers were unable to find men who had never seen porn. But he conflates this with "all men watch porn" which is not what the researchers found. I wish Dan would drop this trope.
Dan: On the Hallowe'en costume issue, won't you please think of the children? Seriously: if a boy wanted to wear the 'Cookie Monster Beer Garden Hostess' costume, I wouldn't raise an eyebrow, but I do take issue with the costume itself being created and marketed as the 'girl's version':…
TONS of LOVE from the beautiful state of (-mind-) Maine! Thanks for mentioning us over and over in our mutual quest for civil rights. Xo
Maine Munky
I don't think you are quite getting it as far as Halloween. If adult women want to dress sexy for Halloween I am all for it (Done it myself). And I also wish more straight guys would show more of their stuff on Halloween. The issue is that women's (and increasingly girls') costumes are sexy (or cute) and nothing else. Go on Google image search and look for "women's _____ costume", results vary based on the blank, but at least 50% of the images will be stuff that exotic dancers would wear to work. For some categories (try police or army) it's 100% slutty (which I use in a sex-positive way). If you do search for girl or teen or tween costumes, it's also mostly tight bodices and short skirts. There's nothing wrong with being sexy. There is a whole lot wrong when one gender gets the message that sexy (or at the very least cutesy) is the only thing they should aspire to be.
The problem with the sexy-ing up of Halloween is that there's no alternative. If there were robot costumes for women and sexy maid costumes, fine, then it's a choice. But there are no robot costumes, no dog costumes, (almost?) nothing un-gendered. It's not driven by women who want to look sexy for men, it's driven by manufacturers who want to sell the idea that looking sexy is mandatory to women. It's even more of a problem when the audience is 11-16 year olds. I don't think there's a good analogy in gay culture.
These complaints about the lack of un-sexy Halloween costume options are a bit sad... why not create your own costume that embodies whatever sexiness level you desire. Even if a given woman isn't feeling creative, plenty of "men's" costumes would probably fit. And in the name of gender equality, I am a male who routinely crafts his own sexy costumes :)
I giggled to hard at the faux pas of "even if the sex dies.... oh, God, I really shouldn't use that word".
20 You are really just skipping along the surface of what these women are talking about.
I laughed my ass off at tomorrow's Halloween episode that i just listened to. My favorite is the one involving the used condoms floating in the shit filled tub (how does this happen, you'll find out!) Fucking hilarious.
22: That's fair. I do agree with a lot of the sentiment, especially the rampant sexualization of children's costumes.
Hey, I'm a Married, mom of 2 in Minnesota and I just wanted to go back and let you know that this podcast struck such a cord for me. Although I was already donating money to the Vote No campaign to stop the "Marriage one man/one woman" amendment, I had not volunteered. Anyway, I just got done with my first shift of volunteering for a political campaign ever answering calls and it was fun. I've signed up to help again tomorrow, and door knock on Tuesday. It's the best I can do balancing my job and family, but wanted you to know that you matter and you got me motivated! Love our podcast! Erica in Minnesota
I think Dan is right about empowering heteros to sex it up on Halloween if they so choose, and more power to them. But the thing he glosses over as a minor quibble is really the whole problem: Heteroween, as Dan calls it, is all about women putting on a sexy show for men and not the other way around. I know a lot of straight women; not a single one of them would object to some male eye-candy. And the fact that sexy costumes for women are so overwhelming in stores on Halloween (and sexy male costumes virtually non-existent) puts a disproportionate pressure on women to sex it up. Heterosexuality (as I understand it from here in homo-town) is not just about arousing men.

As for the call about body odor, I think Dan was a little too hard on the guy who didn't like his own BO. The guy is absolutely wrong to shame his boyfriend about enjoying his odor, but Dan's advice seemed to be to try to change him, which doesn't seem fair. He should stop being a dick about his boyfriend's minor kink, but it's reasonable for him that being stinky is a boner-killer for him. I'm kind of the same way. It would be hard for me to get in the mood if I'm giving off a funk, even if my partner likes it. That's just one of those sexual disconnects that they'll have to compromise about, but it's not wrong for him to want to feel fresh any more than it's wrong for his boyfriend to want him to smell sweaty.
@20: Honestly, I don't think that we should have to work any harder to avoid wearing a sexy costume.

"plenty of "men's" costumes would probably fit" Maybe they would, but what if you're not really man-shaped and would like it to fit better than it would if you bought a man's costume? What if you're short with big boobs? No man's costume is going to look good on you.

Also, it's beside the point. If there were no women's pants, only men's pants, do you really think it would be right to say to women, "Well, you can always wear men's pants"? I think it's silly to segregate pants by gender, rather than by cut, but it's better than offering one product solely to one gender.

I guess what I resent about Halloween costumes for women being pretty much entirely "sexy" is that it FORCES me to be creative in order to go out in something I actually feel comfortable wearing while drinking. Anyone who wants to wear essentially a stripper costume can just shell out $30 and be done with it, but I actually have to come up with something clever. My inclination would be to buy something, but I look bad in men's stuff. But I also don't want a costume in which I can't bend over without flashing people.

As for the people who think dressing slutty ONLY on Halloween is stupid/distasteful, what a load of shit. Women who do that want to show off the goods without social consequences. I don't see what the problem with that is. I just wish it weren't the only non-creative option.
Had a comment about the boyfriend who's wigged out by his partner's like of his smell.

If he does feel the need for deodorant so strongly, there's one called Crystal Body Deodorant. It's a mineral salt stone - you wet it and apply. It's a hell of a lot more natural than the chemical-filled options. In and of itself, it's scentless and gentle. None of that aluminum and such. We find it locally at our natural foods store. We both use it when we feel the need to use something and it's a very nice option.

Though personally, I adore my boyfriend's natural scent. Happily, while he's not into it himself, it doesn't shame me for it, and lets me get a good whiff now and then.