Savage Love Episode 318


The furry vore guy should just date furries. Anyone who's been in the furry community for a while is familiar with the vore crowd and they're generally very tolerant of strange kinks. If he can't find a nice vore-loving lady himself, he'll at least find another furry. They can share that aspect of themselves together and have something in common. For the vore part, he can compartmentalize that kink into his own personal time and his mate will hopefully be understanding and tolerant.

If he has any more questions, he should contact KnotCast, which is basically the Savage Lovecast for furries (don't work for them--just a fan of both podcasts).
RE: the dude with the unrealizable fetish ... you know what struck me about him? It sounded like he had found a home with that small weird online community. Even aside from the sexual fantasies and writing and programming and so forth, it sounded like he would miss the camaraderie of that group. If he's gonna cut back on time with the vores, it might be easier if he could find another community to be a part of, whether online or IRL.
Dan's answer to the vore-fetish guy wasn't great. The SSRIs and psychologists especially strayed into fetish-pathologizing territory. If the caller wants to spend a couple of hours a day with this community, and his girlfriend's OK with it, what the fuck does it matter whether the fetish is "realizable" or not? Why focus on that detail so much? The guy doesn't even WANT to realize the fetish.

In any case, fetishes don't just fit into the categories of "realizable" and "hopeless obsession". There's the middle category of "fun hobby/community", which this guy seems to have found just fine without Dan shaking his finger and pushing drugs.

As for time use, let the guy figure out for himself what is and isn't a reasonable use of his time. Maybe he'd just be watching TV if he weren't involved in this community. If so, maybe this is actually a better use of his time.
And then at the end of the podcast he says the vore call is "one of the more disturbing calls" they've received! What the fuck, Dan? Where is your famed fetish-friendliness? I've got pretty mild kinks and even I know that an unrealizable gobbling fetish and an online community do not a disturbing call make. Fuck that.
Just a minor clarification, I do truly appreciate the feedback (this is the 22 yo planing on getting married shortly); I actually have talked to my girlfriend about it at length. I only mentioned my dress in my call as an indication that the wedding is truly impending, not some distant idea. And finally, the main factor I have been considering about getting married is what calling off the wedding at the last minute could compromise. Things like my girlfriend's faith in me, and her security in our relationship. The dress matters very little (aside from the fact that it probably won't fit forever).
Hey Vore Guy,
I was(is) into vore, minus the furry component. When I indulged this fetish, I spent two to three hours on it a day, too, which caused me to fail college. I finally realized that I spent so much time on vore because it wasn't just sexual, it was a way of coping socially. I could only deal with women sexually if they were being humiliated through being reduced to food. I quit indulging my vore fetish, and the unmet longing I still feel for a woman's humiliation has been a price I've been more than willing to pay to develope a measure of empathy and social belonging. I'm also a stronger person for not needing to have another person sexually dehumanized in order to feel better about myself. This might not be the case for you, but if it is, best of luck in subduing your demon.
Hi, I'm the caller with the weird kink. I think the other commenters have the issue in hand, but when I saw @6, i felt I had to step in.

@6, considering that I have had this kink ever since the first time I read a book of Grimm's Fairy Tales at age 5, and the fact that I have succeeded in college, and, spirits be praised, have had a very fortunate career since then, and the fact that I have no problems whatsoever with ordinary sex and ladies, I feel strongly that your kink is not the source of your problems.

@4 and @2, I appreciate it. I feel perfectly fine, and I think that Dan's Jeffrey-Dahmer experience must have been what he was thinking of. To be honest, it was reallly like I was suddenly in one of those cheezy TV show episodes where the protagonist is all jittery and nervous to meet his very favorite performer, but when it actually happens, the guy is much more afraid of him than vice versa. Kind of surreal actually.

Allow me to rephrase my question:
I really enjoy making porn and getting feedback from others on it. I can spend up to 2 or 3 hours of my already free time per day on it. Is this a good idea?

Despite all this, though, I still think that the kernel of Dan's answer was right: Better to spend more time on something shareable. So I'll tone it down to just a few hours per week instead, and spend more time reading books and writing my book.
@7 I was gonna jump in here and say what @2 and @4 said, but sounds like you've got it well in hand already. I think the problem in this instance is that Dan is old as balls and doesn't completely get what an online community is.

Dan has been fucking up more than usual lately and it's kind of making the podcast hard to listen to.

Sorry to interrupt all the vore discussion.. What caught my ear was Dan's reference to MDMA and psychotherapy. Although there has been some more research into this area lately with very promising results, as far as I know it is still illegal for a psychotherapist to administer MDMA outside of a DEA-approved scientific study. What can occasionally work (or so I've heard..) is to ask your therapist if they would be ok with you taking a certain substance (which you must acquire yourself, of course) before a session. Unless you can book a session for several hours, you'll want to make sure you have someone to drive you to and from the session as well. Of course this is still technically illegal and your therapist cannot recommend you do this, however due to our ridiculous drug laws, it is pretty much the only option for receiving psychotherapy under the influence of certain substances.
Indighost, can you "monetize" the pornwriting some way? Then it would be perfect because then you wouldn’t starve. I think whoever said Dan was squicked out because he was incorrectly associating the "vore" stuff with Dahmer is right (and of course whoever said that Dan is losing his touch is wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong) because aside from the godawful stupid unbearable name, this isn't a grody kink compared to cringe-inducing things like adult babies that constantly make it on here and make me want to fill my ears with cement. I mean, come on: Little Red Riding Hood makes total sense and everybody who's read it knows that. Of COURSE it should be totally possible for a cute little lipsasredasblood, skinaswhiteassnow, hairasblackasebony girl in a to-die-for hood scampering through the forest carrying a basketful of wine and cakes to stray kindasorta on purpose into the path of a big hairy fanged slavering bad wolf and get swallowed bloodlessly whole and then either rescued by a toothsome woodsman or not, depending which version you read. Doy.

Really I'm writing because I want to tell the gay guy who has the intimacy problems the same thing the straight guy said last week, namely, thank you for helping me not be such a giant idiot. Ever since a cute gay guy in grad school told me that he could go to the gym and just by direct eye gaze or hand gestures, arrange for totally anonymous sex in the shower, I have assumed that gay guys have everything better. I used to believe that people like Senator Widestance and Ted Haggard most likely spent all their time screaming in public about homosexuality not because they were motivated by self-loathing or because they were hypocritical but because they're titans of the universe who not only get to be powerful pols but also get to have supereasy superhot anonymous sex all the time, and it just makes it that much more piquant that they can deny OTHER people ANY sex while themselves having unlimited truckloads of the funnest no-strings sex since Caligula. Actually, I didn’t used to believe this, I still believe this. It had to have made sex more fun for them to spend all day inhibiting other people’s ability to frolic and then spend all night frolicking themselves--they're obviously sociopathic monsters. But you don’t have to be a sociopathic monster to enjoy this great, practical set-up. Arrive at the airport, tap your foot on the restroom floor a couple times, ten seconds later you’re having sex? What is not to love? From the outside if you’re lazy and not thinking very hard, it looks just awesome.

Except no, and so I am glad that you called and showed me how very much not like a big gay boatride growing up this way was for you because I would not have seen it on my own, being as how I am a dumbass. Please don't be ashamed because I did not hear you say a single thing that was shameful. All that I heard was goodness and bravery. You just HELPED people, lots of other stuck people and lots of stupid people who are looking right at stuck people and thinking they’re seeing people having the time of their lives. Dan is right and if it does prove unchangeable you can do the companionate marriage thing. But I bet it's not unshakeable. And like the straight guy from last week said, thank you for making me less of a stupid bigot. I'm sorry that happened to you and sorry for feeling dopily stupidly jealous of something that all the time was hurting you and a lot of other people. I’m so sorry.
Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines advice as "recommendation regarding a decision or course of conduct." It really is frustrating that so many commenters, through writing and phone calls like to make judgment calls on Dan's advice. If you don't agree with it, don't take it! @8, you say Dan's been fucking up lately- who are you? If anyone thinks they know better they should start their own podcast.
@11: I believe Dan has said that he is open to criticism.
I just want to clarify that the NY police officer was not charged solely because of "spinning out elaborate fantasies" on the internet he also illegally accessed a federal database in order to get information on these women.
@7 - Right on. I think you took exactly the right message out of this. I too am a lifetime member of the furry kink-o-verse, and the strategy you've described has worked well for me. It's TOTALLY possible to reserve a corner of your life for this stuff without letting it take over.

Lots of things are rewarding in moderation and destructive in extremes - food, alcohol, games, gambling, movies, vanilla porn, etc. This is no different! Paradoxically, in fact, I find that devoting less time and energy to elaborate fantasies makes them MORE enjoyable; they feel less compulsive, and therefore more indulgent. In other words, cutting back can improve the very thing you're cutting back on.

Anyway, sounds like you already have this pretty well figured out - just thought I'd back you up. Good luck!
Regarding the birth control without prescription issue: I live in Hungary, and I know for a fact that you cannot get any sort of hormonal birth control without a doctor's prescription here. The only kind of birth control available without a prescription are condoms. In general, far fewer medications are available without prescription here than in the US, and those are available only in pharmacies, not in supermarkets or drug stores.
I did agree with Dan on his comments to the woman who went from dating a crazy guy to a dating a decent guy with boundaries. She'll come around in time.

The lady with the fat, old father needs to just step back, like Dan said. The time to get really worried about morbid obesity is before about the age of 50, when there is still enough body infrastructure like bone and muscle strength to support the kind of strenuous exercise that large-scale weight loss requires. If he's 70 years old and 350 lbs, he's going to be that way on the day he dies, which could be tomorrow or twenty-five years from now. Being gay, straight, in, out, or some combination thereof probably isn't all that much of a factor and it isn't worth the possible damage to the family relationships to probe it. What if they found evidence of Dad having an affair with a woman or communicating with strange women? Same answer.
The young woman calling in about her father does seem to love him. She also seems to think that he can run his life faaaar better than he does. Maybe so, but he's entitled to run his own life and she should follow Dan's advice and "back the fuck off".
@7, I think you're right to ascribe Dan's over reaction to your call to Dahmer heebyjeebies. It was like he didn't really hear your call.

And, critics? Dan Savage has never claimed to be perfect. And if he did, we wouldn't hear it because it would be drowned out by shouts of laughter from everyone, including those who love him. He's impulsive and intemperate, and sometimes displays bad judgement. Still better at this shit than anyone else I've heard.
Dan, I believe you went off about the right to over the counter birth control at the beginning of this. I hear you, and I must say I am SO SICK of birth control being referred to as a woman's issue. The only reason women need birth control is if they are having sex with men, so that makes it applicable to both genders. I work out of town a lot, and if I am in need of my $70 a month Nuva Ring (generic is STILL not available even though it's been out for years and saves me from pregnancy and crazy depressive side effects of the pill) I have to transfer my prescription to a pharmacy in another city. My scrip is for a year, but once transferred, it remains in the new city instead of Seattle when I need it the next month until I call and get it switched back. I have learned to keep an online pharmacy handy, a local one, and a spare in case I go out of town, so I don't miss my dose. What a hassle. I get so pissed every time I see penis enhancement pills of all kinds on the counter of the gas station. Accessible birth control is harder than getting tampons added to first aid kits.
Hi Dan, Love your show, but the Birth Control talk really turned me off. I think that as a medical drug, folks need to seek medical advice first before taking it. We already take so many prescription/non-prescription drugs. You say its up to people to find the risks. But we DON'T. The vast majority of folks are completely unaware of the risks we take when we take pharmaceuticals. At least when you see a doctor, there is a chance (though definitely not a guarrantee) that you will be educated on the risks and it also reduces the likelihood of issues related to drug interactions etc. I much prefer the European model where VERY little is over the counter, even cough medicine or advil is behind the counter. The less drugs the better.
Also, your comment about the HPV vaccine really threw me off. I haven't heard your podcast about this topic, but I am VERY surpised at how pro-HPV vaccine you are. This vaccine was pushed though approvals and has been shown to be unsafe by THOUSANDS of reactions-including life-changing injuries. Young girls and their families are NOT made aware of those risks. I certainly wasn't before I received the shot. I encourage you to do some more research on the topic.
@20: Seriously? Excedrin, Nyquil, Tylenol- I could argue pretty effectively that all of those are riskier than the least-risky birth control pill. And the fact is, people who don't have easy access to doctors are simply not taking the pill and risking pregnancy rather than finding out all the risks and going out of their way to see a doctor and get the pill. What the OB-GYNs basically said was that while it would be better if women would talk to their doctors to get the prescription, the benefits of having more women able to access the pill outweigh the risks of them taking it incorrectly. I don't think they'd make every type of birth control pill OTC- only the safest. And the worst a person can do to themselves with the safest birth control pills is pretty much mimic the effects of pregnancy (if you take the whole month at once).

And even if the European model is better, we do not have the infrastructure that the European health system has to make that work. It shouldn't cost someone a copay AND the price of a drug just to get an aspirin for their damn headache.
@7: I feel like you should use the animation skills and the writing in non-vore venues and see how you do. I don't think you should eliminate it entirely, but 2 hours a day on something you can't really talk about IRL is a little concentrated, you know? If you branched out, you could at least talk to IRL friends/family/random people about something you're animating or writing.

I guess I see it like this: my boyfriend has two hobbies, which are video games and Magic: the Gathering. They serve a couple functions for him. They're fun, they help him find like-minded enthusiasts to be friends with, and he has a decent answer for people when they ask him what he's been up to lately. If you're making vore-porn two hours a day, I'm guessing it's not that easy for you to do that last thing.
Regarding the woman who thinks her fathers weight may be linked to his being in the closet (it seems he keeps getting referred to as gay, but apparently his own words and actions would describe him as bi), I think she is wrong, but maybe not that wrong.

She said she knows he goes onto "Bear" websites. Bears are generally thought to be attractive to their admirers BECAUSE of their size. When you have a Bear involved with a Bear lover and they come down with health conditions relating to their weight there is the risk that if they do something about it they will lose their partner because they will no longer be attractive to them.

It sounds awful and shallow, but I know for a fact it is a real concern for some people in the Bear community.

So dear old dad may, indeed, be keeping the weight on due to his sex life, but it isn't being bi itself, but being a Bear that may be the real issue. If he looses weight and so stops fitting the description of a Bear he looses that certain thing that makes him particularly attractive to a certain segment of guys, and becomes just another 70+ year old closet case.
Dan, I'm afraid you're Wrong on the Internet about birth control. Detailed medical assessment is needed to find the right type of pill. If I had not had medical monitoring and advice, I wouldn't have known that my specific mix of migraines, family history and air travel predisposed me to blood clots, and - more importantly - that a far less clotty progesterone pill was available. There are lots of issues like this with finding the right pill for each woman.

I know it's easy for me to say this, because all I have to do is turn up to the doctor's every six months, get my blood pressure tested, answer a few questions and then all my contraception is free, renewed on repeat prescription online and collected from my local chemist. The pill I'm on costs a lot more than the average, and it doesn't affect me at all. In practice, for the small investment of ten minutes twice a year, I have the same ease of access to birth control pills as if they were over the counter (except it's better than that 'cos they're free). I love the NHS.

The fact that the US has an insane medical system shouldn't be used to push for a situation where more women could be at risk of serious side effects.
Hi Dan. I've been listening to your podcast for years now. Long enough that I feel I have a pretty good sense of what kind of advice you tend to give, especially to people with kinks that are not socially acceptable.

You usually encourage people towards self acceptance, towards being honest with their partners, and towards finding safe, consensual ways to indulge even if only through fantasy and roleplay.

If the caller seems nice and thoughtful, you acknowledge that and take it into account when giving advice. If they seem likely to hurt someone, you tend to slap them around a little.

Therefor I was surprised by your advice to the two recent vore fetishists who called in. With the first guy, you spent most of the call trying to make sure he wasn't lying in wait to take advantage of someone's low self esteem, when he gave every indication of being a kind and thoughtful person. For the second guy you suggested drugs.

What's up? Why the inconsistency? A few people have pointed out the Dahmer connection...I don't want to try to psycho analyze you. But the advice you gave to these two young men was noticeably less compassionate, thoughtful or helpful than usual, especially when there was absolutely no reason to think either one of them was unbalanced or violent.

I hope you will consider re-visting those calls and giving new advice. Thanks.
The morning after pill is hellaciously hard on a person and causes daylong bucketfilling puking and therefore should absolutely NOT be available OTC to kids who are being browbeat by their statutory rapists to use it as regular birth control. That is what Planned Parenthood is for: the nurse can notice that the same kid has been in twice in a week for her "only-in-an-emergency" contraception and can then help the child find better solutions AND deal with her asshole "boyfriend." I have SEEN this HAPPEN. I can still remember the girl. If the shit had been OTC, she'd have been doing a lot more puking.

So yep, Dan is absolutely wrong all over the internet about birth control because migraine. But that's because Dan is not a doctor. What is more interesting is that the nation's pediatricians are wrong all over the internet and all over the national media. They are continuing to conclude that the best solution to the big national PitA that is pregnant girl children is for them to continue the tradition of browbeating girl children into taking all the responsibility for human fertility. Doctors will know that it's not safe for all girls to get all infertile any way they can because some girls--LOTS, actually--are migraineux and could stroke out and die. Nevertheless, blaming girls, sticking girls and women with all the hassle for their entire reproductive lives and endangering girls' health and girls' lives remains the solution because hormonal birth control is still the state of the art because it's more lucrative to invest pharmacy research $$ in dick pills than in contraceptives that don't endanger women. And THAT is because men remain in possession of most of the money to spend.

I'm more writing in for my wife's response to your recommendation about OTC birth control pills. She really screwed up her face after listening to your starting rant & I ended up pausing the podcast to listen to her. The problem is that there are many, many combinations of chemicals for The Pill. My wife had been on 5 different ones since we started dating and a few more well before. Each set caused different reactions & side effects, from low sex drive to PMS for 3 weeks to constant spotting, weight gain and more. So tests are needed in order to make sure which version of the Pill is even safe, as well as monitoring side effects. She also had a friend who nearly lost her legs to blood clots. It was preventable, too, but her friend's good Catholic mother never discussed sex with her at all, let alone that their family had a history of blood clots because of The Pill. And what company is going to want to risk a lawsuit over the first person that develops blood clots over OTC pills? If you want to solve this problem, make the doctor visits free, or at least covered under insurance. Even some subsidizing Planned Parenthood would help. (FYI: My wife decided to stop being on The Pill and we've gone to condoms. Her periods are not quit as plannable as they used to be, but she's happier.
I got the impression Dan was more horrified by vore because he doesn't really know what it is, and seems to be operating from the NYPD's (!!!) understanding. While I'm not into vore myself, I am familiar with it enough to realize it has nothing to do with death or harm or actual realistic cannibalism - it's about cartoon depictions of life-sized people-mostly women-being eaten whole and alive by fantasy creatures or other people, and often surviving and enjoying the whole process. It's certainly less violent or harmful than, say, blood play, which Dan has never seemed as disturbed by. I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone has a responsibility to keep up on every odd fetish or kink, but DAN SAVAGE, of all people, should try to educate himself about a fetish before shaming someone or referring to them as disturbing. Bad form on this one, Dan.

That said, the point about investing so many hours into what is, essentially, masturbation, is a good one. Good for you, caller, for making the most of what little free time you get.
Hey caller,

I think Dan's "advice" was some of the worst I've ever heard from him. He was rude, disrespectful, and made a lot of unfair leaps about the nature of your fetish and whether or not it's appropriate, which isn't really his job. Or maybe it is, since his job description is about being opinionated in whatever fucking way he wants, which is pretty cool when you think about it.

But no, your vore fetish isn't something you should be ashamed of. I'd say, fucking do your fantasy out, because this is your life and you're doing what you love. And actually gaining some real applicable life skills. The internet is a place where celebrity is accessible to anyone doing literally anything. As long as you're able to support yourself, no one has to dictate to you what is the best way to spend your free time.

I'd say your measuring stick should be assessing your life and seeing if there are other things you would like to be doing just as much or more. If what you're doing weighs high on that list, then do it without holding back. I'd love to have a hobby as gratifying and indulgent and…I don't know, invested. It sounds like you've met people who share this fetish and you're just a specialized community of folks supporting and indulging each other. Nurture that.

Also, who doesn't want to make art and videos about their favorite things? That's awesome. Enjoy it.
First re. OTC OC: As much as I agree with Dan that infantisizing women by saying they're unable to make informed risks, I think hormonal birth control is a confusing enough issue even for a doctor to make. I agree with other commenters that the problem is not accessibility to oral contraception, but rather accessibility to good health care providers who can sit down with the menstruator/ovulator in question, get their health history/family history/risks/lifestyle preferences, and then make a collaborative decision with follow-up to see how it's working out. (Ah, a dream land, right?) Disclaimer: I'm a female medical student planning to specialize in adolescent and young adult primary care, so I have a lot of interest in this health care done right. Also, my own personal life reflects going through at least 5 kinds of birth control which caused me lots of problems (severe depression, for one), and I didn't find one that worked for me until I was 27y.o.
Also, my (limited) understanding of, for example, getting OTC oral contraceptives in Thailand (via a TED talk, no less) is that the shop-keepers distributing the birth control are trained in helping the women to choose which is good for them, which would mean those women are at least getting some counseling about their choices. In the US, our OTC stuff is straight up "walk in - grab from shelf - pay - walk out" with no screening or consultation built in.
Also, how many people are really truly aware that tylenol and stuff containing (cough syrup, etc) it can melt your liver? Really? Not many.

Second, for the gentleman whose sexual history may have separated his sex life from his companionate pair-bonding abilities, maybe check out Stanley Siegel, a psychotherapist in NYC. (His website is his own name, dot com.) He is a gay man who focuses on sexuality and relationships, and he's written a book about incorporating one's fantasies and sexual behaviors into one's whole person, and it might be a place to start. The book is _Your Brain On Sex_. (Disclaimer: I'm friends with his daughter, also a psychotherapist, who contributed to the book. To avoid financially benefiting my friend, feel free to check out the book in a library! Plus, support your local library!)
If the caller is not in a position to talk to Stanley Siegel or receive care from him, he might nevertheless be able to get a referral for someone similar in his area, or could use the book as a screening/discussion piece when finding his own psychotherapist or relationship counselor.
Good luck to him!!!
This comment is my attempt to make an account.
Follow-up to #30 (myself)
Second, for the gentleman whose sexual history may have separated his sex life from his companionate pair-bonding abilities, maybe check out Stanley Siegel, a psychotherapist in NYC.
His website is
Re: Dan's comments On what it would take to get the birth control made available over-the-counter. While I agree with the basic philosophy about the safety of the medication, Dan's comment that it would require pharmaceutical company to stand behind the change for prescription to over-the-counter is incorrect. There is a citizen petition process through the FDA where any citizen in the US can file a petition requesting change in regulation or change the classification of the medication. If Dan is really serious in his stance on reclassification of the birth control pill, he should gather his resources and his supporters and file this particular petition.

Heck, the UW has a whole part of the School of Pharmacy dedicated to FDA regulatory affairs, he could probably get some free guidance from them.
The 46-year-old gay man who has a history of anonymous sex and now experiences a disconnect between emotional connection and sexual arousal could benefit from Surrogate Partner Therapy (SPT). SPT is a two-pronged approach. The client would explore the issues verbally with a therapist, and he would also simultaneously have sessions with a surrogate partner.

These experiential sessions would allow the caller to go beyond the theory, beyond just talking about the issue, to having an actual corrective experience. In fact, he would consciously and systematically enter into greater levels of emotional intimacy with the surrogate partner in order to desensitize and overcome the shutdown response and learn to respond in a different way. This therapeutic relationship is overseen by the therapist and provides a safe space for the client to explore the issue without the pressure and expectations that people often experience when dating or hooking up.

More information about SPT can be found on the website of the International Professional Surrogates Association at
Is this the one where Dan rants about taboo-izing words like twink and tranny into "letter"-word? (Like f-word, n-word etc) If not does anyone know which episode it was? It was one of the more recent ones I know that...