Savage Love Episode 320


A very reasonable answer to the Poly Funeral question. One wonders, given that question being a first, what questions might arise when poly people anticipate attending weddings. I can think of several possible questions off the top of my head.
Last call was hilarious.
Dan, straight guys experience a "threat" response upon perceiving another guy's junk. It is a knee-jerk biological reaction that is basically inevitable.

It would have been homophobic to say "No one should go down on a woman without a committed relationship" or "Anyone who does is gay." But the caller didn't say that. He only said "I am not comfortable doing it myself, because of the perception of the other guys." That is not homophobic. It is just biological.
The girl who called about her fake STILL an idiot. She made a distinction between "rape rape" and "date rape" as not the same. RAPE IS RAPE.
How could Dan not find this sexy Yuletide calendar amazing and erotic?…
Dan, get over the sexy Xmas photos. You bitch about it every year. You don't seem to realize that 99% of these photos are tongue-in-cheek. They're not meant to be "sexy." It's a joke!.

Also, you actually said, "save the children!" ...which is something you've complained about in general since the dawn of time. Please try to get over it.
I am the poly funeral girl. My dad is still with us, and we're really enjoying our time together. My family is generally somewhat socially liberal (fine when I was dating a woman, never presume the gender of a partner before I tell them,) but I agree with Dan that kicking the can down the road is absolutely the mindful and respectful thing to do right now. This response was exactly what I needed to hear and really comforting. Thank you so much, Mr. Savage. I appreciate you more than I can express.

I somewhat circumvented the potential funeral awkwardness by having my secondary and his wife come pay a visit and meet my parents. They've left a beautiful impression on my mom and she knows they're a major source of support for me, and I don't think I have to worry about my "special friends" being a source of confusion or stress for anyone.
I'm a gay man, and when I was 13 my parent's marriage was broken up when my Mormon mother, with five young children, found out that my dad had a hidden second gay life. This was of course devastating to her, destructive to the family, and an absolute bomb to me, wrestling as I was with my own sexuality. I held off coming out for years because I hated the idea of being the same "thing" that broke up my family. It was years of pain and self hatred. I blamed and hated my father, myself, and gay men everywhere. Yeah, eventually, I got over it and came to understand the impossible situation my father had found him in (btw, if you ever want proof that gay people can't change...). But I will never date a married man, ever, who is cheating on his spouse. If I ever caused that kind of pain, just shoot me. There's plenty of other options. I don't fuck Republicans, racists, druggies or married guys. The end.
The girl who called in ask about her past "rape" lie pissed me off because well rape is a very serious matter. Recently a friend of mine decided to con me saying she needed money for an abortion instead she used if for to buy heroin. A lie is still a lie. Now I don't trust this girl anymore. So I say should tell the truth to this guy friend.
Dan needs to read up on his Christmas/Yuletide history. Christmas was mostly about sex, and drinking and eating--until quite recently, when Christmas was re-recognized by Christians, who had rejected it for hundreds of years.

The tree--oh, the tree! Yes, it was a phallic symbol. Yes, it was a fertility symbol. What it is NOT is a Christian symbol.

And that atheist/agnostic thing. Well, sure. Call yourself either one. But please be aware that most atheists are agnostics. Atheism is a definition of BELIEF about gods. Agnosticism is about KNOWLEDGE--gnostos, knowledge--about gods. You don't believe in God, but you don't necessarily KNOW. Bingo. Both.
@10: Well that depends on where in the world you are. Most cultures have some kind of winter solstice celebration, and Christianity has ripped off most of them. Here in the northern parts of Europe we used to celebrate Mid-winter blot (blot=sacrificial feast) which (after sacrificing some livestock to the Aesir, Vanir and/or Jotun) was mostly about getting drunk and eating meat until you puked (vikings considered it rude to come to someones feast and then not gorge yourself until you vomited) so not so much of a sexy holiday. In fact, in modern Sweden it's still mostly about drinking and eating meat but with less vomiting (and if you don't believe me about the meat part just ask any vegetarian or vegan from these parts how much they hate Christmas, because almost all traditional dishes that everyone serves contain meat in some way, and the ones that don't are usually disgusting (unless you really love beets))
Say what you will about Christmas not being sexy Dan, but I have to disagree. My boyfriend has a huge thing for those red and white sexy Santa skirts (think Jingle Bell Rock, Mean Girls style), and looks forward to the time of year eagerly.
Where the hell is Dan seeing these naked Christmas themed pics? Seriously!? I look at porn (with the full knowledge and consent((not that I need it)) of my partner) and I don't see it.

I think the person that needs to change is Dan. Dan, stop looking at those websites leading up to Christmas. There is stacks of porn out there that has nothing to do with the season.
Y'know, methinks Dan doth protest too much about the Sexy Christmas pics. Maybe he's secretly turned on by them but finds it disturbing. :D
holly != mistletoe!
Dan: Minor point, but I think you forgot to factor in the unreported fake rapes -- the ones used in cases like this one. I would guess that the typical fake rape is unreported, because it's used in pretty much this way ... to manufacture some drama and attention. My data set is small, but it includes an adult who pulled this repeatedly on most of the people she knew.
@4: While rape is rape, I can understand why she would feel worse about lying about a non-date rape. Lying about a date rape is lying about something you're not supposed to be able to remember well, and so involves less lying. Lying about a violent rape that involved no altered state of mind probably involves a lot of detailed lies about things you "remember", which I'm pretty sure means more detailed and elaborate lying.

Also, I think we should do more to get kids to realize their lives are not supposed to be exciting. A lot of kids have this tendency to create elaborate, dramatic, fictional experiences to make themselves seem cooler- that includes both traumatic fictions and fun ones. I don't know how to teach this, but I think it's a topic worth pursuing.
@16: Yeah, there's no way to know how many rapes that are claimed at all are fake, as the vast majority of any rape claims are never reported to the police. I suspect, however, that the fake rape police report rate is lower than the general fake rape claim rate, because I think many 14-year-old rape fakers would probably 'fess up or say they didn't know who their rapist was rather than file a police report.
Seconded: holly != mistletoe!
Is everyone trying to say holly _does not equal_ mistletoe? Because it doesn't. Either there's some new typographic convention on the interwebs that I don't know, or the comment software is munging it. Could certainly be either.

Um, let's see. Boy who doesn't want to eat a stranger's pussy. Not homophobic, not irrationally possessive, (which I actually thought was likelier). Just, I thought, more worried about disease and cleanlinesss in general. You don't know how careful a stranger is about hygiene and it doesn't hurt to assume the worst. That said, oral sex is reasonably assumed to be reciprocal.

"In a bad place" boy. It's you. You come off a little needy, offputting, or overly analytical. You also might be attracted to women who aren't a good fit for you. I'd be willing to bet you aren't the hottest guy out there either. Now that I'm done beating you up, you can fix all of that. Work out and tone up some if you don't already do that. Energy and muscle tone are attractive. You don't have to be Charles Atlas. Take care with your appearance, hygiene, and smell. On dates, don't talk too much and don't eat too much. Ask out women you are comfortable with. Relax.

Rape girl needs to come clean. I wonder why no one mentioned her parents. At her age you would reasonably assume they are still alive and must have had a large role in dealing with this traumatic situation. She needs to come clean with them, first, in my opinion.

Excellent advice to the poly gal. You have our sympathy.

Oh, and our lovely governor in Texas had this to say yesterday: "Over the last decade, Texas has taken extraordinary steps to protect the lives of the unborn, but when 80,000 lives are lost to abortion each year in our state, we know our work is far from over," Perry said, speaking at the Source Pregnancy Center in west Houston.

"Let me be clear, my goal - and the goal of many of those joining me here today - is to make abortion at any stage a thing of the past," Perry said. "But while Roe versus Wade prohibits us from taking that step, it does allow us, the states, to do some things to protect life if they can show there is a compelling state interest. I don't think there's any issue that better fits the definition of a compelling state interest than preventing the suffering of our state's unborn."
(from today's _Houston Chronicle._)

Nothing that better fits the definition of a compelling state interest. Not education, not hunger, not jobs, not health care, not the environment.

Thanks, Rick. Happy twelve-twelve-twelve, y'all.

@7- seemaybe. Thank you so much for coming back here to comment. You must be a lovely person to have such a large support network. Here at the Lovecast, our best wishes are with you.

Also @8- Sa-Spence. Thanks for your comment. Word.
With the holidays approaching, I just wanted to thank Dan and all for the advice of going out on Christmas if you are alone. 3 years ago, I was facing the holidays alone after the death of my partner earlier that year. I was listening to the podcast and decided to call a friend and go out to the local gay bar on Christmas night. As it turned out I meet the man that night who is now my partner ( we got our wills notarized last week, which is as close to marriage as we can get in our state). I certainly wasn't looking to meet the next love of my life, but happily it ended up that way. So thanks again, for the tip that brought so much love back into my life.
Dan, I'm having trouble reconciling your protests over the sexy x-mas pics, and the ads for the sex toys for x-mas. huh??
So sex around trees in December is sacrilege but sex around trees in April is sacred? And here I thought sex was intuitive.
@20: I kind of got the impression that this boyfriend was the only one she told- it seems pretty likely that if she had lied to her parents about it too, she would've had to back out of the lie a LONG time ago.

Also, =! is the convention for the equal sign with a slash through it (does not equal sign) on the interwebs. Just a tip.
Regarding Christmas porn and the dude who didn't like the idea of eating pussy with temporal proximity to another man's dick: the word we are all looking for is "squick." This is the term for things that sexually turn us off. For example, "I was reading some great erotica, and then I got squicked out by the incest in the story."

Some things turn us off. For Dan, it's associating Christmas with sex. For that one dude, it was the though of eating some pussy with essence of dick-of-some-other-guy in it. I don't think we can call Dan a prude or the other dude a homophobe for these things. We're turned on by things and turned off by others, and that's just fine.
@ 25 - I usually see it presented as =/=
As a lawyer, I want to thank Mr. Savage for directing the woman from N. Carolina to fuck a lawyer first. Such an act is the remedy for many problems; albeit it is a solution that sadly is often overlooked by many.

I must also mention that fucking a lawyer can also bring extra forbidden spice to a relationship in another way. If that lawyer is your lawyer (insofar as s/he has been representing you or giving you legal advice), a lawyer-client-fucking relationship is a grave violation of legal ethics and could result in the lawyer's disbarment or public sanction. Heretofore, spice it up by fucking a lawyer people!
The last call was really awkward :-s
@25 yes, me too. Or, if the software supports extended ASCII, the actual symbol ≠. Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I've never seen the exclamation point thingy. Maybe it comes from the texting world.

I'd like to think that when I was fourteen, if one of my closest female friends told me she had been violently raped, I would have insisted she go to her parents and the police. And a doctor. And the school authorities if it had anything to do with school. I mean, really!
I don't mind sexy Christmas pictures. I consider Christmas kind of sex-neutral, so for me a hot naked guy standing in front of a Christmas tree is just as good as a hot naked guy standing in front of any other kind of tree.

But I love the Sexy Arbor Day idea. There's built-in sexy potential. Outdoor sex is already a pretty common kink, so arbor day would be a fun way to celebrate being naughty in nature.
Dan, I wish you would stop implying that third parties have ANY ability to judge whether someone else's relationship is in trouble/ ending or not. I am still married - 14 yrs, 2 kids, blah blah- to a man who when we were three years in tried to end it his only way-- 'fall in love with" someone else. We were in a very bad way partly cos I was being pretty mean with him & partly because his fear of intimacy was sending me insane. He had a nice line in my wife doesn't understand me that a woman who is still his colleague (in a large organization) thought was attractive enough to fuck. We split up, we went to therapy, we are mostly pretty happy. SHE, in my mind, is a piece of shit who should have kept away from another woman's husband, period. His working life has been impacted by having to avoid her and (probably) lie about why. I hope she is embarassed when she sees his name on an email. I hope she learnt to keep the fuck out of other people's relationships! Please stop offering women or men who think they might like to fuck someone and hey, rescue them from their horrible relationship, an excuse to do so.
Tis the season for petty peeves, eh Daniel? Does your husband encourage this, or merely tolerate it? I am hoping it's the latter. The first time, perhaps, it was a tad cute, but now it's entered my long list of petty peeves - Daniel's yuletide rant - oh the tedium. It has now gotten squarely to the point that your hissy fit has nothing at all to do with what you're hissing at, but something deep within your psyche that greatly disturbs thee. Please, please cast it out, and end for all time this petty pissing on so much much to do about nothing nothing at all.
!= is used in computer science, and coding, if I'm correct, where ! is more generally used to mean "not".

Sigh. The girl who lied about rape did a twofold disservice to rape victims everywhere: first, she falsely claimed to be a victim of a heinous crime and second, she has given credence to the myth that many girls claim rape or that a significant number of rapes are "fake". This is not true; in fact, most women deny having been raped (or rationalize traumatic experiences which are legally rape as not rape) because of the overwhelming stigma and shame our culture throws at rape victims. She needs to come clean, but when doing so make sure to emphasize that her shitty mistake is not a reflection on the legitimacy of any other woman's accusation of rape.
Also since eating pussy doesn't necessarily entail going near the vaginal canal, I don't understand Pussy Eater's problem. But, if he doesn't plan on reciprocating he definitely needs to say this *before* allowing a girl to go down on him.
The poly funeral question.

I'm in a poly relationship with 2 other men, one of whom I'm married to. The three of us live together and have been for 2 years. 2 months ago my father in law died. It was slow and painful for everyone involved.

About three weeks before he died my mother in law asked my husband if our other partner was also a part of our relationship. We were not really surprised but sometimes situations like this can make things that might otherwise cause drama just a part of life. I doubt my father in law would of been as accepting.

2 weeks ago my mother in law came and stayed with the three of us for 5 days (a tiny bit too long in my opinion :-) and it went really well.

But I do agree that our relationship is not defined by who knows about it and when work colleagues ask I know my partner does not get offended when i say he is my best friend.
Does anyone else have a problem with Dan Savage and the experts answer to the pedophilia question? My first issue was that they did not address the fact that the caller had experienced sexual abuse at a young age and seemed to be battling with depression from the incident. He said that he was disgusted by himself for letting the abuse happen. Someone in that state should be directed to a psychiatrist.
Secondly, they assumed that he was only attracted to children although he said that he had been attracted to adult women. Surely, that issue could have been discussed. Why should the poor man relegate himself to hormonal therapy, which could possibly have a determinental effect on his long term health, if he could with therapy work on his already existent attraction to adult women?
Thirdly, I really resent the way that pedophiles are represented in the discussion as cuddly friendly human beings. Yes, some may battle with their feelings and learn to suppress their urges. I don't think that those who look at kiddy porn but not do anything are 'gold standard' pedophiles as they contribute to an exploitative market. However, please note that there are some pedophiles who are unashamed of their behaviour and try to explain it away, e.g. 'female children in third world countries are married at the age of six'.
Finally, please be careful about the law of unintended consequences. Whilst, it may sound nice that there is a site where people who suspect that they have pedophilic urges can discuss their issues. There is a possibility that some unscrupulous individuals may use this site to find others with their tastes. Please look at the case of Vanessa George, Colin Blanchard and Angela Allen in Plymouth UK- they met after Colin Blanchard put up a facebook profile detailing his experience of sexual abuse as a child.
Oops wrong thread!
!= meaning "not equal" stems from the convention of C and C-like languages (C++/#, Java, PHP etc.) many of whom have become very popular on the web. ! more generally means "not".

I do not get Dan's obsession with Christmas themed porn. It is one thing to be squicked out by it, quite another to rant about it every year. And a previous poster is right - Christmas has deep pagan roots and even as a Christian holiday it stayed quite true to its pagan roots and was very much an adult holiday and as such was opposed by many Christian factions. Refocus of Christmas on children is a rather recent phenomenon historically speaking. But regardless of all that, Dan of all people should be all about celebrating people's diverse sexual expressions even if he doesn't share them, not shame them for it.

Lastly, I was very disappointed with Dan's par totting the 3% false rape rate. Studies vary from 3% to 40% with one widely cited FBI study finding 8% of rape claims as being "unfounded", i.e. that includes only those rape claims that were dismissed outright and not those that resulted in further investigation, trial or even conviction, but were nevertheless false. So the real rate of false rape claims is almost certainly much higher than 8%. Recall the recent case of Brian Banks who was convicted of rape he did not commit and spent more than 5 years in prison. His false accuser
The 3% fiction is promulgated by radical feminists as part of their "rape hysteria culture" to perpetuate their mantra that "women don't lie about rape" and to weaken due process of men accused of rape. Unfortunately they have had some success with many jurisdictions now allowing a rape conviction with no corroborating evidence but based on accusation alone.
Rape is a horrible crime but so is false accusation of rape. Unfortunately false rape accusers are rarely charged with a crime and even when they are it's a misdemeanor. And low-balling the rate of false rape reports for political and ideological reasons is beyond the pale.
Nobody bothered to bring up the concept of barriers for the guy who doesn't want to eat strange pussy? I accept that latex dental dams aren't especially sexy and don't transmit sensation very well, but non-microwavable saran wrap protects you just as well and transmits a LOT more sensation. I have found non-latex dental dams, which are thinner than their latex counterparts, to be in between latex and saran wrap in the amount of sensation transmitted.

When given a choice between having my mouth on their genitals through a barrier versus not at all, most people will actually choose to at least try receiving through saran wrap. The response afterwards is usually "oh wow, I didn't realize that I would feel so much through the saran wrap....that was awesome" before they leave for their next sexual adventure. As the giver, the downside, if you like eating pussy, is obviously that you don't get to taste the person. However, if you're concerned about germs, non-microwavable saran wrap, since it does not have the pores to let steam (or STIs) through that microwavable saran wrap does, has the major advantage of making you feel more comfortable eating strange pussy. Personally, my favorite part of eating pussy, strange or in a relationship, is the recipient's reactions which are overwhelmingly still positive with saran wrap as a barrier.
Pretty sure I know the guy who thinks he only attracts women who are afraid to be loved. A little piece of advice: teeth and oral sex don't go together. At least on a first encounter. Good luck.