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*****
Mr Savage overlooks one thing about the first LW. If he wants to acknowledge LW's right to a religious lifestyle, he can't be quite so blithe about divorce - at least not until we learn that LW1 attends the same church as Mr Gingrich or Mr Trump.
She's got a bad case of "sex is dirty, shameful and only for the heathens." Better heed Dan's advice and find yourself a nice heathen girl next time. Oh, and I'm curious about the "I'm religious" but like watching (unmarried, multi-partnered, dirty-talking, cock-sucking) people fuck on the Internet. Which book of the Bible is that endorsed in? You're gonna get turned into a pillar of salt!
LW2/NOPE I love giving blowjobs and can orgasm from PIV sex... Girl of my dreams, partners worth keeping respect your preferences, and should want to do that which gives you pleasure, so any guy who insists on licking the weasel ad nauseum doesn't care that much about what you like. Move on. HOWEVER...that door swings both ways. I like giving my gal head, like the taste, like the whole deal, so maybe you could look at it as one of the many pleasurable things you can do in bed (that he likes) and stop focusing on the orgasm you're not having. You don't have an orgasm every time you're in cowgirl position, right? Oral is just one more position. That being said, c'mon, find a guy who also doesn't focus on the orgasm and likes eating pussy for it's own sake (for a reasonable amount of time). We're out there.
LW4/PISS: Ick. And, "Your lovely, smart boyfriend is a lousy, selfish lay, and two aren't sexually compatible. DTMFA." Dan nailed it.
LW5/CALF: I love asking my friends and people I barely know if I can stick my thumb up their butt, but almost everybody turns me down! What could I be doing wrong? I'm beginning to think I should save that stuff for more intimate relationships, or at least people I definitely know are into it. Damn!
Then I got to the second question about how she won't touch him non-sexually. No cuddling, kisses or massages, and I realize that something is terribly the matter, and it has nothing to do with blow jobs. SF thinks it's about how he can get oral sex. He should be wondering if she'll be willing to nurse a baby or give a 4 year old a hug. Will she spoon in bed? Humans need to be touched. Withholding touch is a form of punishment.
Yeah, follow Dan's advice and find someone you're compatible with, but don't do it citing blow jobs as the reason, and don't put blowjobs on the top of your list when looking for compatibility. Look for someone who's a normal compassionate human being to start with. Hint: You're more likely to find that outside a deeply religious setting.
Show the wife that oral sex is an intimate act of love by the way you perform it, ask her how she likes it and what makes her happy as you do it.
Once she’s done offer to take a shower together. Have her wash and soap your penis and play with it. As you step out have her dry you and take you by the penis back to bed. At least the germ issue is gone.
And be mindful of Dan’s advice: no children.
NOPE LW 2- The week in preview:
By Friday afternoon your letter will turn into yet another endless argument, just like the one we had at the end of last week’s as well as many others.
Is “forced” cunnilingus a form of rape?
Is she “depriving” her partners from eating pussy?
Can’t men just respect a woman and do as they’re told?
Can’t women relax and enjoy?
Those are all very enlightening arguments that never repeat themselves. Some people will get angry and frustrated in the process, others will do their best to make sure they stay this way.
This is what makes me think that Mrs. Sexually Frustrated hasn't necessarily absorbed the sex shaming lessons of her church (though that may be part of it). I'd guess that she's merely doing what she wants (not being sexual or physically affectionate), and bingo, turns out that's what God wants for her. (Funny how it always works that way.) She won't gain status like that; she will get by. If Mr. Sexually Frustrated cared about gaining status in his church, he'd take up with affectionate sex workers (or at least have a long standing affair), get caught after 15 years, and make a big stink about how he's sinned,
Funny, Dan. Telling the anti- oral woman to just fuck boys in their 20s.
Were you reared a Catholic, LW?
It took me a long while to let go and enjoy something I'm sure those nuns would have dissaproved of. Maybe self pleasure and really get into having fantasies about it. Coming while having the fantasy of a man licking you. Rewire your brain.
Given their religious background, it's possible she could overcome her shame and aversion, but I'm a big fan of "life's too short," and would advise the first lw to cut his losses and try again.
6-Aurora-- I've often wondered the same thing. Dan once registered shock that a man who'd found a woman willing to go so far in satisfying his diaper/baby fetish wasn't interested in doing anything vanilla that she preferred. You'd think that having someone so rare he'd do whatever it took to keep her satisfied.
He's giving love and sex advice not go to arbitrary heaven but not really because it doesn't actually matter even for most stringent faith's advice. He has zero need to take that into account. If he wants to be miserable, he has the option to ignore Dan.
The complete lack of physical contact definitely suggests that she is just repulsed by him but unwilling to admit it because she focuses on things that are "more important" in a marriage (compatibility of personality, beliefs, etc.). Again, speaking from experience: I've had sex with men that I wasn't really attracted to because they were convenient, nice, respected me, safe, but the more time I spent with them, the less I wanted to have any physical contact with them. I imagine this is what's happening with her, but she's unwilling to admit it because then that would mean admitting that she, a woman, does have a sex drive and is influenced by the physical/sexual attractiveness of a man, which is just so atypical in this sort of religious dogma.
I second #5's suggestion for a therapy for people coming out of this fundamental "sex is dirty" upbringing. I had the good luck to be able to get out of the mindset and fuck my way to (mostly) normalcy, but I don't think everyone gets to do that, especially if they're married young like this couple. It's very sad.
@DonnyKlicious, If NOPE's partners really enjoy giving oral, she might decide to be GGG and let them have a go for a while for their sake, but if they're convinced she's saying they lack skill or that they just need to try harder and lick longer to blow her mind (which is what it sounds like), that's no fun for anyone. They're headed for disappointment, and she'll be trapped into ever more uncomfortable conversations when she doesn't come.
Some women just aren't into oral for whatever reason. I'm one of them. I prefer that a guy trust a woman to know what she does and doesn't like, rather than assuming she must be repressed or just not have met the right tongue yet.
Add in that she might be from that particular flavour of religion that says sex is for procreation and not recreation. Oral on him has no possibility of procreation, thus, no.
Either way, for LW 1, it means, if you stay in this marriage, you are choosing to stay in a marriage where your sexual needs will not be met, or you can leave and face serious community fallout.
Of course she doesn't have to like oral.
Just giving her my experience. If she explored why she hates it...and it doesn't have to lead to orgasm...then maybe she would find she could enjoy it.
Or as Dan suggests, go fuck younger men who haven't developed such a taste for it.
I never read the comment you're referring to. My @ 9 was based on SL week ends we seem to be having semi-regularly with more or less the same people discussing more or less the same issues and getting more or less nowhere. I only skim those posts.
Sorry you went through what seems like a horrible experience. Again, I would have never turned it into a joke.
This is simple. You're wife is possessed by Satan.
I'm sure you meant no ill will.
Hey CMD @ 9 - don't go away because you're getting bored! I like your posts.
Seandr @ 32 - I think if you pose questions thoughtfully, and read the folks that respond in kind, even if they are triggered, you might get some food for thought.
I notice she doesn't mind receiving oral, no worry about germs there , then.
Such a young man, it's really sad to read what a sexual straigh jacket you've got yourself into. She is a sexually selfish young woman. This has nothing to do with religion.
I suggest you withdraw giving her oral, stop touching her, and see how she feels. Then point out to her that that is how she is treating you.
I'd also suggest, once she wakes up a bit, you find a strong voice and tell her that being with her is like being with a sex doll, and that if she isn't prepared to go with you to workshops or individual therapy with people to help you both become more sexually compatible, or, help her become a wife who looks after her husband's sexual needs, then I agree with Dan, think to leave her.
LW 2 - NOPE - I've known other women who didn't like receiving oral, or who were too sensitive to tolerate direct clitoral stimulation. So you're not alone out there. Some guys like quantifiable information, like "If you really like eating out, I can go along for the ride for about 5 minutes. After that, it starts to hurt." But if someone doesn't listen after the first or second time, toss that fish back in and try again with another.
OTOH - for a long time - like decades - my nipples weren't particularly sensitive, and I would have been bored out of my skin if that was all a partner focused on. But in the last decade, they have started to perk up, and under the right conditions, attention there certainly enhances the, ahem, experience.
LW 4 - PISS - agree with Dan. GGG involves trading off, and your dude isn't trading; he's hogging.
LW 5 - CALF - fetish doesn't have to mean you obsess over EVERYone's feet. You are not too young to know about treating friends, foot fuckbuddies, uninterested strangers, and family members differently.
If some people insist on not hearing the truth of others' experience, after many words are written, going ballistic comes from the frustration of such ignorance. I'm done bothering to engage with deaf men anymore.
Men who ignore what many women, over time, talk about. Nicely, sweetly, with confrontation.. doesn't matter how it is spoken, they stay wilfully ignorant.
Now, if Mr Savage framed his reply so because he discerned in LW1 a Cruz supporter and he was *trying* to get LW1 to double down on the marriage, then I'll give him a Well Played.
SF and his wife should go to a sex therapist, even a Christian sex therapist. She needs to hear from a second source that sex, including oral sex, is normal and not just for porn.
Donny @4: "I like giving my gal head, like the taste, like the whole deal, so maybe you could look at it as one of the many pleasurable things you can do in bed (that he likes) and stop focusing on the orgasm you're not having."
Exactly. Maybe stop thinking of oral sex as something he is necessarily trying to do *for you*, and try seeing it as something he is doing as foreplay *for him*? Hint, guys in their 30s and 40s don't get as hard as quickly as guys in their 20s. Maybe he needs to go down on you for a while to give his dick time to get hard. And if you're neutral on it -- as opposed to actively disliking it, in which case they should totally respect your "no" -- why not indulge them? So long as they accept it won't lead to an orgasm and that that's no reflection on them.
Slinky @23: "Oral on him has no possibility of procreation, thus, no." Oral on her has no possibility of procreation either, yet she doesn't seem to stop him from doing it. Hmm.
Lava @25: Dan's comment was funny but inaccurate. If younger guys didn't go down, I wouldn't date younger guys.
Sean @32: "I don't know about you but there isn't any other forum in my life where I can have discussions like this." Amen!
Let me help: "Normal."
Venn. Not sure what you are talking about. Were those people wilfully ignorant too, doesn't matter how many ways a dynamic was shown to them?
Hear you Fan. Dan is wrong about the boys in their 20s.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/opinio…
I find it interesting that PISS' problem keeps coming up. My pet theory (I'm an engineer, not a psychologist) is that PISS' partner's behavior is fueled by pent up need. Since diaper play is so on the fringes, this guy has probably been fantasizing about this for years (potentially a decade+) with no real hope of getting it fulfilled. He may feel like he can breathe for the first time in his life and his emotional cup is far from full. It's *possible* that he will normalize and be able to be giving with enough time. Pent up need is a poor excuse and PISS, actually anybody, deserves better than hoping her partner will someday be ready to give back. I'm with Dan, DTMFA.
Women are people, dolt. They're not just bits of evidence that men are horrible. Why are bigots always so stupid?
Tell me: Are you really a man, posing as the most feminazi extremist ever, just to "prove" men are right about how ignorant and bigoted feminists are? If so, well done, it's working.
Some women like the feel of tongue on their clits. Some women don't. This includes straight women, bi women and lesbians. Don't be just as disrespectful of their preferences as the guys who are insisting "she just hasn't had it done properly yet."
Actually, perhaps you're crazy like a fox. Never thought I'd hear Eud take women's side.
But if you want to talk about something you think is too sensitive for the general comment thread, you can email me at ballerinacowgirl@yahoo.com. I always welcome interesting discussion.
Dan, disappointingly glib answer to LW1 (SF). Yes, this marriage sounds doomed to unhappiness and misery for BOTH the LW and his wife but the LW deserved a better explanation.
With the limited info the LW provides, as @7 basically said, the LW and his wife are incompatible not only sexually but also on a non-sexual intimacy level, both of which she has problems expressing. Is she going to mature out of these issues with out counseling? Nope. They are young, having married when he was 21 years old. If she grew up in a sex and body shaming environment reinforced by abstinence-only "sex" education and religious teachings, unlearning this will require counseling (by a certified/licensed social worker or psychologist) and will be a challenge that requires her and his dedication. Marriage counseling is another alternative or adjunct to counseling for her.
LW1 doesn't say whether he's actually talked to his wife about their relationship and what his needs are. She might see no problem or she might be willing to try to have open and frank conversations (this is an issue that will need multiple discussions) about this.
After it is all said and done, is LW1/SF willing to live without sexual and non-sexual intimacy forever? To paraphrase @7's comment, is he willing to subject his children to a cold and unloving home, which can emotionally injure them? Does he want his children to pass this pain on to their own children? If all else fails, there is life and can be love after divorce if he is open to it and seeks out compatibility in his friendships and love partners. Divorce can be a positive step for both partners, especially when they are incompatible sexually and in expressions of intimacy. There are plenty of marriages between religiously compatible couples that are hell on earth and marriages "made in heaven" between couples of different religions and belief systems. Life is short and he needn't spend it alone inside a marriage.
**Incidentally, LW1, not all religious women are anti sex and intimacy. I seem to recall seeing, many years ago, a 60 Minutes segment on evangelical Christian women having sex-toy parties (like Tupperware parties but with more giggles) to spike up their marital beds, so to speak.
How does stating a fact (that a woman might be turned off by oral sex because most men aren't very good at it) make one a bigot?
And you've thanked me for it before, which is why it's so obvious that you're lying. But I love watching your bafflement at seeing someone not acting like an unprincipled tribalist. Your type never realizes that other types exist, do they? I can see why, but it's still funny.
And for what it's worth, watching you do a "no true Scotsman" on Marcelina is kind of hilarious. Props for recognizing that she's doing the same thing as the idiots the LW talks about when she says "I've tried being up front about not liking it in general, but guys either get offended or double down and do it more because they assume I've never been with a guy who "could do it right."
Lil' bit rapey, innit?
Pro tip: If someone says they don't want you to do something to them in bed, you shouldn't do it. Declaring the reasons for their preference to be invalid and doing it anyway? That's the wrong choice.
It was only kind of a joke. Think how much happier the LW would've been if he'd said "If you make me choose between you and porn, I choose porn." Partly because then he'd be able to go find a tolerable person to date, and still have porn! Win/win.
@54: You chose to be a dolt who said something moronic and bigoted, in public. If you don't want people remarking on that, be a little more subtle about it. It's even funnier that you call BiDanFan an MRA, since she's exactly the same type of person that you are, just smarter and slightly more subtle. You could learn from her: Whenever she feels her own personal privileges aren't being called into question, she does a passable job of pretending to have principles.
But hearing you go rape-apologist while trying to out-group your own in-group is adorable. I'd say "don't ever change," but there's no need. You won't.
@54 Marcelina, about this: How does stating a fact (that a woman might be turned off by oral sex because most men aren't very good at it) make one a bigot?
I think it's the *most* that makes this statement sound bigoted. You might try: I suspect some women don't enjoy oral because they've only been with men who weren't great at it. Saying "most" men aren't good at it is hyperbolic. If that's your experience, that's fine to say so, but it's certainly not the experience of everyone here--in fact, I'd be inclined to recommend you start hanging out with a different set of men :)
so goofy and ridiculous that I can't imagine any woman actually enjoying it. The over-the-top screams and moans are obviously done only for the male benefit, both actor and viewer.
@58: I didn't call BiDanFan an MRA, ya fool. I said that it's unbecoming of her to use a term like "feminazi" since that's usually a term used by MRA idiots. And since she isn't one of them, I'm surprised she'd use it.
Try to work on your reading and comprehension skills before you start hurling insults.
You’re asking your friends to let you perform a sex act on them and they know it. Maybe you tried to be subtle about it (pretending it’s totally not sexual) and maybe you think if you were just more subtle you could pull it off. But you shouldn’t trick people into being sexual with you. So stop pushing sex on your friends and instead take Dan’s advice and find people that share you sexual interests.
(FYI: That straight friend that said he’d “consider” it? That’s called a “soft no”. Don’t ask about it again.)
Yup. Definitely hanging out with the wrong men. ;)
I suspect being a bigot--like believing any other false belief--takes up a lot of mental energy, which is why your type always comes across as so stupid.
@57: Good point. Isn't it kind of cute how they simultaneously insist that cunnilingus doesn't appear in porn and that men got the idea from porn? Adorable.
And sadly common. Unprincipled triballists make up most of the bottom third of humanity, hence the Trump voter.
eroticized version of the facial expression in yoga's lion pose. Mainstream heterocentric porn pussy eating never seemed remotely erotic to me although it appeared to be a decent exercise for the tongue, which of course is a muscle. Shubhāste Panthānah Santu.
Unfortunately, due to this, I have seen a shitload of mainstream porn. Honestly, I wish I could un-see 95% of it.
Yeah, I don't think showing 15 to 20 minutes of cunnlingus culminating in genuine orgasm happens very often in porn. Someone on jezebel joked that spitoons got more attention.
That said, porn doesn't show anyone how to have specifically personally enjoyable sex. If a guy takes all his cues from porn then he'll only satisfy a lady who likes porny sex (they exist, I dated such a lady) and vice versa.
I think the uproar is caused by the idea that there's like 50 guys across the US who know what they're doing and can communicate to give the right pleasure.
Thanks, Obama!
Happy Cruxifiction Day, to all of you in this time zone.
The problem isn't porn. It's the lack of good alternative sources of information. Parents who are concerned about the affect of porn on their kids would do well to provide those alternatives. Give 'em books, and, ya know, talk to 'em. Most people will figure it out after a while. Those who don't, well, there's no rule saying anyone has to date them.
Marcelina
Last week ciod @ 158 also referred us to this article:http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/opinion/sunday/when-did-porn-become-sex-ed.html?_r=0
which also appeared in the Sunday printed edition. Aren’t those Dutch parents wonderful?
The problem in the US is that there isn’t much in between porn and “abstinence ed” of some sort.
For good or bad, I think that pornography was always a form of “sex ed” to some degree or another. What changed are the mediums and accessibility, from print and film to VHS and internet.
The fact that many youngsters watch porn on the internet should not surprise anyone. It is so easily available.
Accessibility also means that women are more exposed to porn than before.
What haven’t changed much is that most porn is still created by and caters mostly to men.
That said, I still credit some decent lesbian porn for increasing my appetite for cunnilingus as well as for improving attitude and moves.
Actually, there are an abundance of instructional sex videos out there. You might even call it its own genre of porn. Some of them are about what you'd expect, featuring middle-aged California hippies surrounded by candles blandly demonstrating various elementary techniques while a sitar wails mystically in the background. Or, you can follow along with Belladonna as she demonstrates her preparation routine for santorum-free anal.
I'm not sure these are much better than porn for the purposes of sex education, however. Being good at sex requires knowledge of certain ideas and facts, to be sure. The rest is about learning how to play with your partner. That takes a willingness and openness to try things, to offer feedback, to take feedback, to ask questions, to answer questions, to be patient, or sometimes persistent, to drop the pretense of knowing what you're doing and become a student, or to come out of your shell and be a teacher.
I'd imagine all of this communication would be pretty challenging if you grew up in an environment where sex just isn't something people talk about in a positive light if at all. That, to me, seems like the key difference between the Dutch and American families in the article you linked.
Can we ever know if this thread would not have degenerated into MRA namecalling so quickly or has CMD always already gone back and kicked it off early?
I read too much sci-fi.
I think that was her point, that she's willing to go with it for a little while, but gets bored, yet the guys INSIST on it, not because of their enjoyment, but because of their own egos ("You just haven't had it done right!").
Many ladies have had this unfortunate experience. (In my experience, the guys who say "I'm so into eating pussy" are usually the worst at it.)
Fair enough point. If a woman doesn't like it, then she doesn't like it. If she doesn't like it because the guy is fixated on bringing her to orgasm, just like the boys in porn do, then that is a different conversation. All she has to do then, when she's had enough.. and it is for her pleasure too.. Is take his head away from her.
And because of this, people are more quick to dismiss a romcom or action flick with "That's bullshit; that shit would never work in real life." Not so with porn.
Despite being with us for only one week his performance was known as to be powerful, moving, and inspiring.
Tags: “Twenty beautiful women”
And because of this, people are more quick to dismiss a romcom or action flick with "That's bullshit; that shit would never work in real life." Not so with porn.
I am not sure I completely agree. I personally know someone who tried to drive his car really fast to fly over a ditch (spoiler: it didn't work) and I think a sad number of young women expect rom-com style romance in their lives. Do you think that number is really much smaller than the number of men who expect porn-style sex in their lives? It may be, I don't really know. But I wouldn't put money on it.
I wonder, how do you feel about the ever-growing world of amateur porn? I'm not a big fan of porn, myself, although I'm not against it, but of what I've seen (not much compared to what you've seen, probably, given your research) the amateur stuff seems more fun, more light-hearted, and less clearly fake. Are your expressed opinions mostly about commercial porn? Or do you feel the same about all porn?
Btw, notice how this trope plays into rape culture as well. Sex being used as a way to "punish" a woman, and showing a woman having sex being the quintessential way to humiliate her.
Also, completely ignoring consent.
I wonder if part of your perspective of porn is shaped by HAVING to watch lots of stuff, all the way through, as opposed to choosing the subject matter while skipping and rewinding as needed.
@ 68 You mentioned you regret watching 95% of what you had to while on research work.
If you’re ok with elaborating on the subject, what made the other 5% more tolerable?
What would you change in regards to porn if you could?
I was just expressing a (thoroughly selfish) longing to be heard and understood, by women I respect, a feeling that arises not infrequently, and lamenting at how elusive that can sometimes be, even in the absence of any substantive disagreement.
@96, no one asked me, but we had a guest writer a few years back who won some kind of contest and was allowed to write some weird ultraconservative post-apocalyptic fan fiction. If I recall, it featured Obama bringing down the Western World with his blackness, all while arguing that we were now post-racial. He also got into a fight in the comments section, and generated a clone/sockpuppet to lend a voice of support. He seemed to be a little unhinged, but nowadays would seem like a calm grown-up at a Trump rally.
This is one of, I believe, 5 posts of his:
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
I just wanted to encourage seandr not to be afraid to ask the questions he fears may start a shitstorm. Isn't that partly what SL is for?
I appreciate most of the commenters here, and am sad when people who have interesting things to say start name-calling, bickering and one-up-wo/maning each other, that's all.
You're correct, though, I don't watch porn, mainstream or otherwise. Nothing morally against it; it just ain't my bag, baby.
No Excuses @70: 15 to 20 minutes!? Firstly, I'm glad to be ahead of the curve in this respect. Secondly, porn is meant to be masturbated to. It's my understanding that most people can successfully masturbate in far less than 15 to 20 minutes. Porn is the highlights reel, in other words. See @74.
I agree with CMD and Lava, porn did form part of my sex education. My mother was very conservative, and sex ed in the schools related purely to reproduction. There was no mention of oral sex, no mention of queer sex, just "this is how to not get pregnant." Porn in the 80s was different to today, of course -- there was body hair, and anal was not standard. I agree that maybe there needs to be some kind of "educational porn" genre that depicts real people having real sex, engaging in activities that both partners enjoy, maybe with a plot line that involves negotiation and consent ("Can I come on your face?" "No, I don't want to do that." "Okay, I'll stop you when I am about to come."), with a variety of orientations and genders represented. Porn is everywhere and kids WILL seek it out, because they don't want to be clueless in their first sexual encounters.
Marcelina @80: Apparently there are a lot of women who support men's rights, and "MRA" is an incorrect term for men who hate women, that's "manosphere." XiaoGui explained the difference between various pro-male types in this thread: https://www.thestranger.com/columns/sava…
Jujubee @90: "So uh...thanks for bringing your true selves here y'all." Except for me. I'm lying. ;)
CMD @100: "I wonder if part of your perspective of porn is shaped by HAVING to watch lots of stuff"
Bingo. Wasn't it Hunter who mentioned losing one's taste for ice cream by working in an ice cream factory?
Dan, after a bit of commenter backlash lately, has avoided telling LW1 to just go elsewhere for a woman to show him some loving. So now he goes to the other extreme and tells him to move on from her.
Yes, sexual compatibilty is very important in LTR, and I agree with Dan.. hold off on any baby making. It's just these guys are married, there must be love there.
They both have come from religious backgrounds, she seems fine to have her pussy licked, so maybe she can be untrained away from the religious brainwashing. It is possible.
He just has to get a bit of steam up and lay down some ground rules with her. Insist on sex positive work thru groups or in individual therapy.
Stop letting her close him down re their six month arguments, and insist on her doing some work on herself. And give her no way out of it, or he does need to leave her. He should give her a clear message first that he's done having sex with a doll, or he's moving on.