#107 - Know anyone who doesn’t?

@kitschnsync: It is 70 degrees and sunny in Seattle

You make a great point.

@Cat Brother: Preach it!

Last week some women shared here their experiences of unwanted and forced sex acts. Those were pretty powerful and often heart wrenching accounts.
This week men are encouraged to share some of their experiences. Those may not be as horrendous or may not even come as a clear cut violation to some, yet you grow up and live with what you know.

I was a fairly short and weak boy. Along with some fears I inherited from my parents I quickly became one of the favorite targets of the older bullies. One day, when I was 5 or 6, one of them pinned me to the ground. As we wrestled he tried to open my legs and place his knee on my crotch. He was couple years older, much stronger, and yet my fear and instincts managed to lock my thighs till he gave up or someone saw us. Some 40 years later the therapist told me that it’s quite common for bullies to have an erection while in that attacking mode, despite their young age. I don’t remember seeing one and I didn’t even know what to look for back then.

Some 15 after the bully I went to a doctor appointment. It was a female doctor who just moved to the small place where I lived. She was somewhere in her 30’s, divorced with a young son, and also quite attractive.
I wasn’t very experienced at the time and my confidence in that area pretty low.

It was a knee issue so I had shorts on. She placed her hand on the troubled knee, then on the other, and started spreading my legs slowly for no apparent reason. At some point I froze and didn’t let her to continue, which resulted in her stopping while making an “ahem” which probably meant “You’re nothing but an idiot loser.” (I’ve experienced this gesture few times before and after this incident. ( Apparently some women, certainly not all, feel this way about men rejecting their advances.)

The Dr. and I pretended as if nothing had happened and went on with our lives.
The incident was baffling at the time on different levels. I remember to never regret what I did, despite missing the older woman fantasy I so craved back then. And as opposed to other memories I cherish and still masturbate to at times, thinking what if and how we could have done things better, I don’t recall ever ejaculating while thinking of Dr. I.

No sexual molestation by parents, though it seems like there was some emotional incest of some sort coming from my mother. Some other men I talked about this issue said they also experienced something similar.

So yes, nothing too traumatic, and yet you know what you know.
I’m afraid others might have had it far worse.

#111 - that is some pure stupid shit. Since you’re new to this board, I assume you’re here to sway a couple of people of the sloping-forehead variety to your bullshit POV. See, on SL, we’re used to various posts popping up on ‘how I worked 30 minutes yesterday, and paid off my student loan!” Sort of a Darwinian thing, in that we assume, not unlike offers of friendship from a Nigerian prince, that nobody with a functioning frontal lobe will go for them. It didn’t occur to most of us, or at least to me, that a Trump apologist would try to run their shtick here.

Dude. It’s OK. if you’re being paid by the post, get that dolla. It’s OK, maybe you have a meth habit, or maybe someone’s holding a knife to the throat of your favorite stuffed animal. But you ain’t convincing anyone here, and we just took out the trash, so bugger off.

Amos, you dissapoint me. Asking for good porn to watch one week and then then then this!
@103; great, another one who says their bit and then runs off.
How exactly could I find out if some piece of scum was influenced by porn to rape by reading anything? They have done studies on the guys who they haven't and have caught and asked them about their porn consumption? I'm just making assumptions here.
I'm not asserting porn makes people rape, I'm suggesting it could influence some people.

Amos, I couldn't possible read thru your whole comment. But really, you are on the wrong thread. Talking to the wrong crowd. The brain dead are thata way.

Ms Fan - That novel has been seeming rather ahead of its time lately, as a large focus of nerd/gamer culture has turned to comic books. There's also a relatively close shot at portraying the prototype of what anti-feminists often claim to be feminists' view of the archetypal MRA/MGTOW.

If you can derive amusement from a lesbian ex-couple-possibly-reuniting whose domestic disputes arise from their separately adhering to conflicting waves/branches of feminism, you'll likely enjoy it should it ever come your way.

You're perhaps a bit too young for your mind automatically to make the Kinks connection to any reference to the name Lola. The Princess Paragon comparison arose because you advanced the term crone. One of the early squabbles between PP's new author in the novel and his publisher concerns her wanting him to retitle Princess Paragon's mother, the Queen of Iri, as the Elder Crone, that being her idea of the title a matriarchal planet would use.

Yes CatB. of course men have always looked at pictures of pussy. Still pictures are not moving pictures. Not the same impact on the brain, as I understand it.
If you checked that link ciods gave us, young girls are greatly influenced by porn to do stuff. They learn from porn what they are expected to do. And boys learn what they can expect, which with mainstream porn is mostly about male centred pleasure. Male pleasure, if I could be so bold as to claim , is not the same as female pleasure. We have different bits.
Remember that letter from the mother of a young man who had fantasies of raping after watching rape porn?
Video porn hasn't always been around to find so easily.
I agree. Marcelina went over the top on many of her statements. Didn't warrant that first post of yours and its vehemence. That's what I responded to.
CMD. Not to open another can of worms, though why not. Yes. Emotional incest by mothers with their sons.
My mother, from whom I'm now estranged, did that with my first child. My boy who died. I was a single mother for six yrs, she and my sisters helped me raise him. At the time, I was just twenty, her behaviour was what I knew. But she hadn't had a son, she did take my boy over in someway, I realized yrs later.
Emotionally, she went in far too close and far too weird. It's very hard to talk of, as it stirs my deep guilt about that child.
How from my own damage, I didn't see the dysfunction that was occurring. Sometimes I do feel I was just too ill equipped to be a mother. A good mother.
Sometimes I do feel my resistence to abortion was misplaced.

Another fairly long post...

Hunter @ 82
I don’t know what kind of underwear Rachel Maddow wears.
Yet for her B-day I came up with these three affordable, tested-and-approved pieces that I hope she will also like.

Happy Birthday Rachel!!!!

Practical, every day look and also on the gender-neutral, queer side. Five for $45.
https://www.soma.com/store/product/trave…

Women can wear “boyshorts,” “the boyfriend cardigan,” and so on. “The girlfriend lingerie” is nothing but progress:
https://www.soma.com/store/product/vanis…

These may be a bit too low a cut for some of us, but every now and then can be lots of fun. Needless to say, I find a bit of queerness in here too. Make sure to flip through the images and discover the gorgeous back…
http://www.nancymeyer.com/Simone-Perele-…

Love you Rachel, hope this helps!

You writing to Rachel, CMD? Nice one.
She's a cool chick.
Saying that @ 15 released something. A few tears shed.
Do I need a fuck Alison? It's true I haven't had one for a long time. A couple of attempts, but no.
Truth is, I'm not sure I'd ever find a man who could caress me, as I do myself. My fantasies are usually over after the fingers and mouth have done their bit. Of course I'll sometimes finish the fuck , fantasy fuck, so my fantasy partners get looked after, and it's always nice, right? Being a Lesbian would have been much easier.
So. Not time yet.

Anyway, thanks guys for letting me share.
How come you haven't got a girl, CatB. You're looking very cute these days. A+ on your arms. What's stopping you? The old Scorpio have to wait for the right one routine? Don't want to ever have a broken heart again?

Fan, I do sign off to my kids as ma.
There was this great show around, back whenever. Ma & Pa Kettle.
Such a great comedy about a big family, and two slightly bazaar parents.

If I imagine Rachel Maddow’s heterosexual identical twin sister, her panties are unclear to me, but I believe if she was wearing lace-top thigh highs, I’d about lose my mind.

Hunter and all others interested in queer lingerie and other related issues:
http://www.thelingerieaddict.com/
is one of the better lingerie blogs out there, and it deals with all related issues in a very thoughtful way.

Rose is a talented young writer who has been sort of the “in-house queer correspondent” for the past couple ofyears. I find her pieces to be very interesting.
http://www.thelingerieaddict.com/author/…

Hunter78,

We most certainly do have a lesbian among our regular commenters! You really don't pay attention, do you.

Or as Eudaemonic would say... LIAR.

I remember that thread, and I know that I noted that I’d pick up, or try to, a heterosexual Rachel in a cold second at a wedding or barbecue or whatever. Girl is attractive, simple as that.

Nope, not me. I used to be a lesbian, but am not today.

JibeHo, my old townie, swings that way. Pretty sure there’s a couple more.

I can't see in what way Rachel Maddow is unconventionally attractive: she's straight-up beautiful in every conventional way. And then she opens her mouth and goodness and wisdom come out.
I'm straight and she's partnered, but I want to be her friend.

Also Mallory Ortberg. Just copy that first paragraph and switch out the name "Mallory" for "Rachel."

Being their imaginary friend, I have no interest in the kind of underwear they're wearing.

Just like formerly-known-as-nocute and myself got into an otherwise pretty funny argument few weeks ago as to "who is a submissive," Alison and JibeHo were debating the true meaning of lesbianism a year ago or so.

There may be a shortage of nice thoughtful guys who will treat you rough when you ask them politely to do so, and as BDF keeps telling us some women may be bit too conscious as to who else their potential female mates may date.
Still plenty of cleaning chores and pink gloves.

No CMDwannabe, that was not the topic.

Ms Cute - If I accept that I underrate female attractiveness, will you accept that you overrate it, and/or agree with me that both of us, being among the number of those not attracted to women, ought to defer to those who are on this question?

This leads me, as you doubtless predicted, to Jane Fairfax, who claims that her opinion of people's looks is worth nothing, for, where she has a regard for someone (in the case in question Mr Dixon, generally considered to be plain), she always thinks that person well-looking. Maybe we should test you here with your opinion of Karen Straughan, whom I'd guess you not to hold in high esteem, with her face on - therefore from perhaps a couple of years ago (she has stopped putting her face on because some MGTOW followers thought she was trying to enhance her arguments with physical appeal). I suspect I may be one of a very small number of people to see a resemblance between Ms Maddow and Ms Straughan - the first time I saw a drawing of the latter, it occurred to me that it could almost have been a drawing of the former except that, in some indefinable way, it didn't suggest the subject's being Jewish. (I could emulate Edward Ferrars and guess that you like Jewish faces in general; I think, if I toted it up, I'd rate them higher than average.)

I'll admit readily that, while I respect the cleverness with which Ms Ortberg's video about male authors both lets rampant man-bashers call her One Of Us and leaves her ample wiggle room to say it was just satire about the sort of bad writing with which men have been getting away for centuries and anyone who doesn't like it has committed the deadly sin of Can't Take A JOKE, my Scots verdict on her of Non Proven probably renders me unable to form an objective opinion of her appearance. Were I to see her giving female writers a similar skewering, my opinion might revise.

But this actually reminds me of a video I heard a couple of weeks ago, in which a straight anti-feminist male explained Mr Trudeau's ascendancy to the Canadian PM office. One thing that seemed especially to aggrieve him was his complaint that Mr T "isn't even attractive" - so that not only was he calling his countrypeople stupid for voting for someone with such "bad" policies but he was also insulting the tastes of their attractions without standing. I left a fairly sharp comment wondering why he expected people who were attracted to men to give his opinion of any man's attractiveness much (or any) credence.

Now I'm at least potentially open to granting that, as a woman yourself, you have more standing than I do on the attractiveness of women, but would that not give me double your standing on the attractiveness of men? Or would orientation lines come in and muck up everything?

Mr. Ven, I'm on my way out the door, and don't know when I'll have the time for a considered response, but I'll try late tonight or early tomorrow.

CMD, perhaps I'm dense or the Alzheimer's is kicking in, but I can't remember having an argument with you about the nature of submission or is submissive. Could you jog my memory?

When I read about eating cum with a spoon I thought there's a nursery rhyme in need of a modern rewrite.

Hey diddle diddle,

The cat and the fiddle,
The cow jumped over the moon.
The little dog laughed,
To see such sport,

And the dish ran away with the spoon

Mr. Venn, Ms. Cute, if I may weigh in on ‘who gets to say what’s attractive,’ you’re both obviously above-average intelligent, are we really having this talk?
That ‘Cornhub’ thing yesterday really was hilarious, but generally, if one goes to a hub site like that, you find so many thousands of videos. Now, I’ve clicked on a few whose ‘intro pic,’ or whatever the thumbnail that goes with the vid is called, led me to someone who wasn’t gawdawful, ‘so ugly a bulldog wouldn’t eat peanut butter out her azz,’ but just...not my type. And yet, scrolling to the comments below, that woman will have ardent admirers, “Oh my god, she’s perfect, she’s a goddess...” and so on.
I’ve never thought to tell these people that their tastes were wrong. As Socrates once said,”What you eat, don’t make me shit.” Or, what you cook in your kitchen I don’t have to eat, who you like to smash genitals with doesn’t affect me a ha’penny.
I would be surprised if at least one of you were not familiar with the works of Edison Marshal, who wrote stuff in the earlier half of the 20th century, really good historical fiction, including a pseudo-autobiography of Lola Montez (not the first thing I think of a dude author of that time putting out.) I remember in the pre-Internet 80’s and 90’s, searching thru used book stores, continually forgetting whether it was ‘Marshal Edison’ or ‘Edison Marshal.’ I’m sure you both remember similar quests.
Anyway, there was a line in one of his books, may have been the Marco Polo one, where he quoted some old wisdom along the lines of “A gem may be examined for flaws, gold may be weighed, but a woman is worth no more and no less than some man is willing to pay for her.” His character was speaking of buying slaves, but the intent still applies for men and women looking to become part of a relationship. Whatever value someone finds in you, that’s what they’re worth to you.
And please let’s not get into tiresome discussions on how this is making women objects ad infinitum. This last for other folks, not you two High Evolutionaries.
(in a comics mood, all of a sudden.)

Hi, Lava! We’re cool. Glad you like that picture, maybe I should use it as my avatar here?

Unfortunately there’s Alzheimer’s history in my family, so maybe it’s on my side:
Alison @ 131
So what IS the topic?

Formerly-known-as-nocute @ 133
We had an exchange on this year Jan. 20 SL that escalated for no reason. Our 145, 146, and 147 posts that week indicated a mutual desire to restore civility.
Not recalling any of it may be a sign that we have actually achieved it.
http://www.thestranger.com/columns/savag…

Lava @115:
How from my own damage, I didn't see the dysfunction that was occurring. Sometimes I do feel I was just too ill equipped to be a mother. A good mother.

Time only flows one way, or, as my friend says: you know what you know when you know it. You can't blame yourself now for things that you didn't know about or see clearly at the time. You especially can't blame yourself for the actions of other people.

*hug*

Hey CatB, why not.. Did you guys win a race, then?
Forgot to mention, that you have one of the best careers. You can give accupunture and a massage.
Good catch material there CatB.

The pic on Facebook is when we’d just won gold, and set the course record, which still stands, in Richmond VA. My beloved oldest cat Ratri had just died, and the day I left for the race a friend put her portrait on my paddle. That’s why I’m holding it up.
Current avatar pic is from year before last, we won gold in the ‘A’ division at Jacksonville. Good day.

Thanks Ciods, yes. At the back of my mind I know I've worked hard as a mother. That boy's father was young too. He didn't have a clue about being a dad.
His rich mother, came down to Sydney with coin in her pocket to organise for me to have an illegal abortion. I hadn't told my mother by this time.
He was a beautiful boy.

Finally, Day Light Savings finished today. Queensland doesn't do daylight Savings, so for the last six months we have been an hour behind the Southern states.

I think also, re relationships. I just don't need to have a male close in.
I live in a compound of buildings, and my sons live here too. They come and go, we say hi to each other.
They do the yard work though.
So, I have masculine energy around.
It's just, I really love creating my feminine space. It's kind of addictive. Every moment I choose my activity. No one to answer to or who has to answer to me.
Long as my kids look healthy and are paying their share of the mortgage and bills, we leave each other alone. The few people I do interact with, are intense relationships. I'm there for them and vice versa.

Just to clarify. My sons and I interact on practical levels, and I'm around when one of them hits the blues.
Emotionally is what I mean. they are adults now. I no longer mother them as I did. I think of it like a 70s share house.

@140. Sorry to hear about your cat, CatB. They are wild creatures to have around. My daughter had to have a kitten after her father did his cruel exit, so now there are four. And she has left the building.

@nocute, @venn: I can't see in what way Rachel Maddow is unconventionally attractive

As some lesbians do, Rachel presents herself in a way that seems to make a point of not pandering to the tastes of the Average Straight Male. Were she to adopt a more feminine presentation, I'd probably find her hot. As it stands, she recalls for me a blend of a young Ralph Macchio and Ira Glass, both of whom are/were attractive, I'm told, but neither of whom does anything for me personally.

@CMD: I'm not sure how to respond to your Dr encounter, so I'll just go with thanks for sharing, interesting to say the least.

@116. CMD. You have a good lingerie eye. I could see Rachel in those pieces. Not too flashy, still sexy. Purple Bras are the best.

Regarding Rachel Maddow's unconventional or conventional beauty, as well as who is allowed to see it, my comment @129 was inspired by two by Hunter who said,
@120:"We arrived at Rachel Maddow by happenstance, but the choice is interesting. Among our celebrities, we have very few butch lesbians. How does a butch lezzy present herself publicly?"
and
@124: "Which points to how we got to Maddow. Someone here a while back (I'm not looking it up) remarked that all (youngish) female celebrities were conventionally beautiful. (Was it an ordinance of the Patriarchy?) I, loath to accept that feel-good feeling that comes with general agreement, mentioned a few exceptions to this rule, including Amy Schumer and Rachel Maddow. Cmd said, afair, Rachel had beautiful eyes. Or was it a beautiful smile?"

I was speaking of conventional beauty, not whether or not I find Rachel Maddow sexually attractive or whether or not men, gay or straight find her sexually attractive. "Unconventionally attractive," as I understand the term, refers to people who fall pretty outside the norm for accepted standards of beauty. Rachel Maddow falls well within our cultural notions of what constitutes beauty: her features are regular and symmetric; her eyes are sparkly, and when on camera, she wears contact lenses, rather than the glasses she wears on her own time. On camera, she wears makeup: her complexion appears to be even--she has no visible scars, few wrinkles, no obvious blemishes. Her nose isn't particularly large, her teeth aren't crooked or missing or chipped or discolored--they're white and straight. Her hair is shiny and looks thick and styled and is well-groomed. Her body is trim and fit and slim. Her professional demeanor is just that: professional; she wears business attire. She doesn't try to look like she's out at the club, but she doesn't present herself in any way that makes her look slovenly or unattractive.

Now, if we're getting to the issue of whether or not I, as a straight woman, have the right to pass judgment on Maddow's looks in order to pronounce her "beautiful," I don't understand the issue. I don't have to be personally sexually attracted to someone to see them objectively. While it is true that the more I like someone, the better-looking he or she appears to me, that is something that happens with real friendships, not media figures. Bu

@101. DrJones. Nice to see you here.
sigh.

@135. CatB. Interesting. A toad woman, you say? And she was loved.
Great story.
Reality Bites@134; I agree, it has potential. Could change the recepticle to a dish. A glass, coloured dish. A largish one, with sides.

i think Rachel
Is gorgeous. Just the right mix of kindness, intelligence and beauty.

A toad woman who was loved? It could happen...And if there’s a centaur fetish, I’m sure someone somewhere digs toad women.
‘Toad’ just makes me think of Toad of Toad Hall, or how the toad is the symbol for raw physical strength in some Chinese martial arts,’toad training’ = barbell work.
Well, this thread seems to have stabilized to a state of relative bonhomie, let’s go see if Dan has recently advocated cheating on your spouse!

#151 Hunter - Having worked in a health club on Capitol Hill DC thru most of the 90's, and having seen a lot of movers and shakers, including the late Scalia, wearing nothing but towels, I can assure you that toadishness extends to both genders in our nation's government.
I don't care if an official is so ugly they hurt my feelings, I do care what agendas they push. And I find Mikulski's Paycheck Fairness Act to be so pretty, I'd ask it to the prom if it had boobs.

(It is possible that cutting off most of my hair yesterday altered my mood.)

Ms Cute - Yes, it occurred to me later that I'd taken a missing step; I'd been seeing and hearing so much of people on both sides trying to dictate to the other that You Need to Be Attracted to What We Declare Beautiful that it led me into equating "beautiful" with "attractive". I do see "attractive" as putting standing into the equation in a way which "beautiful" does not necessarily do, and apologize for the leap.

Mr Cat - I'm not calling anyone wrong who states an opinion subjectively, and differing amounts of objectivity about the point of beauty are acceptable. My point - not well made the first time, I admit - is that attraction requires standing.

Back to Ms Cute - It was not intended as criticism, more as an observation that I've formed the opinion (perhaps a wrong one) that you seem to rate women's looks much the way that Jane Bennet rates their characters. Now it's possible I'd find that you do the same for men; I haven't observed enough to form that opinion in any direction. (I recall your appreciating Mr Cavill, but that's all that springs to mind at the moment.)

I do like as a point of exploration the Jane Fairfax angle, which I think operates both ways. Very interesting that for you it only applies to people you know personally. I also wonder about how differently a positive assessment functions from the way a negative assessment does. Is the idea of a coin with Beautiful or Attractive on one side and Ugly or Unattractive on the other tolerably applicable, or can we get more accurate? Thoughts for the day, perhaps.

Apart from the "you lucky stiff" part (way too awkward), I have about the same reaction to CMD's story @110 as Hunter @152. Is it possible that you (by your own admission, I wasn’t very experienced at the time and my confidence in that area pretty low) let your imagination run wild and misinterpreted the sitiuation as a pass where none was intended?

Hunter @ 152, Reg Euro @ 155
“Is it possible that you (by your own admission, I wasn’t very experienced at the time and my confidence in that area pretty low) let your imagination run wild and misinterpreted the situation as a pass where none was intended?”

Actually the opposite: my inexperience and insecurity did not enable me to fully understand the situation as it happened. I was wondering myself why she did what she did, which was totally out of scope of the medical issue, and it took me couple days to fully figure this out despite locking my thighs.
Apparently the doctor had a “reputation,” which I’m fully aware has different connotations and perceptions when it comes to male and female sexuality. There were other incidents I learned about later that left no room for doubt. Again, no regrets.

Mr. Ven, I'm probably somewhere between a Jane Bennet and a Jane Fairfax with regards to men and women: I find most people have at least one or two attractive qualities, and the more I like someone (male and female), the better-looking I find them. This is probably because I'm no longer using an objective scale to judge them by, but am judging them against themselves as I've seen them before. Thus I can see a friend wear a shade of red that makes her look vibrant or alive and think, wow, A---- looks gorgeous! (Come to think of it, I'm more like the narrator in Northanger Abbey, who says of Catherine that "when in good looks," she's "pretty." Her parents also have that sense of contextual beauty: "Catherine grows quite a good-looking girl, -- she is almost pretty today," were words which caught her ears now and then; and how welcome were the sounds! To look almost pretty is an acquisition of higher delight to a girl who has been looking plain the first fifteen years of her life than a beauty from her cradle can ever receive.)

I've often had the experience of meeting a man, finding him not un-good-looking, but not really handsome, only to fall in love with him, and later, once in love, see him and think he is incredibly handsome. My assessment of people's looks is contextual. With public figures, celebrities, movie stars, etc., therefore, I'm limited by the public image, unaffected by personal relationship. So I'm probably harsher in my assessment. But the only way I ever see celebrities is packaged for mass consumption, made-up, lit, posed, and photoshopped, and I'm aware of that. I know that's not how they really look in life.

What I'm really interested in in this topic as it's been on this thread, is how many people (well, I'd say "men," because you've all been men, but then again, I don't think that any other women at all have been part of this discussion) have been thinking that calling someone "attractive" indicates whether that person making that assessment is sexually attracted to the person being assessed. It strikes me that again this is a factor of English's ambiguity. I use the word "attractive" as a synonym for "pretty" or "good looking" or to signify a level of beauty short of "stunning" or "gorgeous," but others are using it to indicate whether or not they are sexually attracted to the person in question.

I think all of us, male or female, gay, straight, bi, have the ability to recognize levels of physical beauty in others, even if they aren't among the category of those that we are sexually attracted to or if they aren't personally, individually, someone we're sexually attracted to. I see beauty in many, many people I don't want to have sex with.

Do other people not do this?

Definitely.

Children, animals and homes can be very attractive with no sexual component. Prices are often described as attractive.

I can be fully, deeply aware of someone's hotness without having any interest in actually having sex with that person.

I can certainly assess whether someone falls into "conventionally attractive" whether I am sexually attracted to them or not. Are they fit and groomed? What is their height relative to typical expectations for their gender presentation? Do they have any obvious disabilities? How are their body parts and facial features proportioned? What's their eye contact like? Does their smile make me melt?

If I describe someone as "conventionally attractive" I am sharing information about how an individual compares to standards for the culture they participate in. Sometimes that's mostly about their physical features, sometimes about their charisma, sometimes both -- but I am not sharing information about the state of my genitals.

For some heterosexual men though, a critical criterion for perceiving a woman to be attractive is whether or not she displays deference to men. A woman who does not overtly signal deference to men will be always perceived as ugly by these men even if she meets all other conventional criteria for attractiveness.

I put in my assessment.nocute.@149.
I wrote I think she's georgeous. I'm a woman.
She has a purity about her, her mind is so loose.

And I agree. Some stunning looking people one can grow to deeply dislike if they are nasty people.
One such girl who I knew thru one of my sons, only posts selfies on fb. While I haven't grown to dislike her, I can't believe her vanity, her shallowness.
Some ordinary looking people, one can start to love their look, as their inner kindness and intelligence shows.
Sexual attraction can sometimes for me be a response to how a man walks, some energy coming off him. His looks are not the only part I respond to.

@159: Oh sorry, LavaGirl. I did read your post; I guess I just forgot.

I'm not sure the women here are so caught up with how we look, as US women are. The young ones, yes.
Older women seem to stay loved, despite their wrinkles.
There was Susan Saradon, being a political angel; narry a wrinkle on her late 60s face. Like she was still a woman in her thirties. Er, sorry Susan.
I don't live in a city, the people around me, just Queenslanders. Go about their business.
I see the most unattractive to me people, madly in love with each other. Love sure is a drug.
Maybe our men, though they of course like a girl to look pretty, don't want some princess of their arms. Australian men are pragmatic characters.
A woman has to do her work. If she's pretty, that's a plus. I think it makes us women know about how we look, of course. We're women. Just also know it's now only what a man will respond to in us. Keep it light and know how to cook. They will cook too.
Australian men love each other. Mates are a big deal to them. Away from the women.

noce @ 157 "Do other people not do this?"
All the time, tough I don't necessarily represent malehood nor queerhood.

It's so must be a "though"

If you don't represent male hood, then what or who do you represent, CMD?
You're falling prey to the same dilemma as women do.
My understanding is, if you have male bits and male hormones pulsing thru your body. Voila. Male hood.
I mean, I don't even know what hormones I got going anymore. I'm thinking my testosterone levels are higher than they were twenty yrs ago. Ignorant of the truth, I am.
I'm still a woman.
Just wanted to pick up on the wee put down coming from @96. Trying to imply that Philo, Marcelina and I were not as hip as the sex - positive feminists of today's generation. That younger women have no qualms at all re porn. just wanted to give you a shout out @96.
Nice try.

As much as it pains me to respond to you hunter. I did set this line of inquiry in motion.
You implying that CMD hasnt manhood, as well as contacting his female side? Maybe that's exactly what he was up to. Flushing out people like you.
Why are you even on this thread, Hunter? You resist Everything that comes up on SL.

Perhaps it would be more instructive, at least to those who believe your contribution is somehow an asset to this thread, hunter.
How do you define man hood?

I have nothing against you personally hunter. Just another poster on Dan Savage's thread.I think you are a sexist piece of work, but hey, obviously you suit some purpose to enough people, otherwise you would have gone the way of Marcelina.
It's just you hang on to such old forms. Such old attitudes. I just don't get why you are even here.
Yes. As I know CMD. He is a man, therefore he has manhood. That he also experiences his female side, doesn't detract from his manliness.
his manhood is strong and virile. his womanhood is soft and feminine.
Go figure.

@152/@155: Hunter, you wanted another example of rape culture. You just gave one. Someone reports that they were sexually abused and your reaction is "You lucky stiff." Because men should always be grateful for every bit of sexual attention they receive, appropriate or not, wanted or not.

Too many threads for me to follow.

Alison, of course everyone with a working pair of eyes can objectively evaluate whether someone is attractive or not attractive. Or whether a painting, or a car, or a building is attractive or not attractive. I laugh at men who are so homophobic they can't even acknowledge that someone like Brad Pitt or Rafael Nadal is objectively attractive. If I say that a building is stunning, it doesn't mean I want to have sex with it.

I had to google Rachel Maddow. Does Ellen DeGeneres qualify as a "butch" celebrity? Is k.d. lang still around?

Yes, fan. K.d.lang is still around. Rachel was referenced on one of Dan's daily threads this week.
Maybe someone like hunter is needed here, a point of reference. The old guard, bit by bit chipped away at. Really though, wtf?
Women have dressed like men forever. We now, in Oz, have football players, getting their hair off their faces using plaits. Big, georgeous football players, wearing plaits, on the field.

Um, pretty sure that Hunter's 'man hood' thing at #166 was a joke, playing off Lava's writing 'male hood' at 165. Not the funniest thing I read all week, but pretty clearly a joke. Surprised nobody took it in a circumcision/mohel direction. Pretty sure he wasn't insulting CMD's manliness, or suggesting some Jaime Gumb tailoring.
Ellen Degeneres doesn't look butch to me, 'butch' being a confluence of more (traditionally) mannish characteristics. I think of 'butch,' exhibited by either men or women, as being a deliberately cultivated look, though I don't watch Ellen's show and have no idea if she shows up much in traditionally 'feminine' garb, like skirts.
And yes, Bi, there's any number of reasons a 15 year old boy, no matter how much he spanks it in private, would freak out if a strange female authority figure came on to him. I...can't connect how this would lead said boy to think rape is OK, unless you meant that that would have been statutory rape on the female doctor's part.

171 Lava, plaits = braids, right? Has gone on with US football players for some time, too. I think there's an even longer tradition of men showcasing their masculinity by being deliberately feminine. Tom Wolfe in 'Radical Chic' had a whole passage on how black gangstas involved in getting money thru the Civil Service would affect mannerisms and clothing that were feminine on purpose, making the white guys who were trying to bond with them and overcompensating by things like 'walking like they had a keg stuck between their thighs,' look ridiculous.
Ice-T wrote about an LA gang that wore big colorful barettes in their hair, the idea being 'yeah, this is something feminine, and if you didn't know better, you'd say something about it.'

@nocutename: Sure, I can appreciate attractiveness in those I'm not personally attracted to. I totally get the appeal of Brad Pitt, George Clooney, and the entire cast of Magic Mike, to take some obvious examples. I've also found some effeminate men to be attractive.

Much of it is contextual for me as well. I'm now realizing that my judgments of attractiveness are greatly influenced by how a woman presents herself. I also tend to focus on a person's gestalt rather than breaking their face down to its components. That probably leads me to some strange places, such as finding myself attracted to the girl from Die Antwoord but completely turned off by Rachel Maddow - i.e, unable to see whatever it is that those who find her attractive see (yearbook photo notwithstanding).

@BiDanFan: Does Ellen DeGeneres qualify as a "butch" celebrity?

"Butch" might be a little strong, but she's pretty decisively lesbian. I can definitely see her appeal - those baby blue eyes and that sense of humor are hot.

Cat Brother,

You couldn’t be more dense if you were doing it on purpose. (Are you?) I get that we experience different worlds, but women talk. You seem to have an awfully hard time hearing.

When Hunter78 said “lucky stiff” wrt a 15-year-old being approached sexually by an adult authority figure, Hunter78 was illustrating and participating in rape culture. The “lucky stiff” attitude gives women leeway to approach boys and makes boys easier prey. If boys are not expected to feel vulnerable, their experience will not be taken seriously when they tell. Their experience is denied, they have no access to redress and the perpetrator experiences no consequences.

#175 Alison - Actually, I you read what I wrote, I’m in full agreement with Bi about how bad this was and why it shouldn’t be laughed off.
And in this case, it’s a man, CMD, not a woman talking about how it made him feel, and I’m believing him.
I have a harder time assigning this to ‘rape culture,’ an amorphous term that like ‘feminist,’ means whatever the speaker wants it to. I would sooner borrow from an earlier post in this thread of Bi’s, and submit that rather than feeling emboldened by ‘rape culture,’ this doctor was just a horny asshole. Teenage boys are definitely stereotyped in this culture as far as their horniness goes, and it’s not unlikely that she was operating under that assumption.
CMD, were the rumors about her of a piece with what happened to you?

AC @175

When Hunter78 said “lucky stiff” wrt a 15-year-old being approached sexually by an adult authority figure, Hunter78 was illustrating and participating in rape culture.

Note that it wasn't an unqualified "luck stiff". He said "You lucky stiff!" my primitive male brain shouts. Which I understand to mean that on second thought, the 15-year-old CMD wasn't really lucky.

Point of order: The doctor incident happened 15 years after the bullying incident, as I read CMD's post. So he would have been 20 or 21, not 15.

I didn't miss the fact that Hunter's conscious brain overrode his initial reaction to the story. But it's the initial, un-thought-out, subconscious reactions that are part of this insidious rape culture thingy. If you hear someone's been raped, and your thought process goes "I wonder what she was wearing? -- Oh wait, it doesn't matter" then you've still had the thought. Not everyone would overrule that thought with logic.

Cat @172/176: You've misread what about the incident I called rape culture. Alison got it correct. Rape culture is reacting to a victim's story by saying they were lucky. The teenage/barely legal CMD was not contributing to rape culture by being a victim. The doctor, possibly, was contributing to rape culture by assuming a young male under her care was fair game for her to touch in a sexual manner, because young men are always horny, yadda yadda. She abused a position of trust.

Some clarifications:
I was 20 at the time as indicated in my @110 when describing the incident.

As for “I don't necessarily represent malehood nor queerhood”- I’ve always felt like I’m somewhere in between in many aspects of my life, therefore avoid claiming representation of any clear-cut demography but myself.

As for Doctor I: I did find out some details about her by conversing casually with others. I never told them what happened between us, as I knew it will only increase ridicule and suspicion.
She was kicked out of the very small place after having an affair with a married guy her age. He fessed up to the wife who said she’s leaving the place with their 2-3 children unless the doctor is forced out. Other women, surprisingly all married, supported the wife and Dr I moved to the big city few months later.

A friend at that time who was into books, nothing like Venn though, compared their action to a scene from “The Painted Bird” where the village women attack a mentally challenged woman who also “had a reputation.”

In other news:
Risking snarky remarks, this piece in yesterday’s NYT made me cry:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/03/fashio…

Apologies for re-opening the "rape culture" thread. It was just that Hunter said two weeks ago that he had never seen any evidence of the existence of rape culture, and yet, now he's just given a second example of it, so I wanted to point that out to him.

Cat @176: "Teenage boys are definitely stereotyped in this culture as far as their horniness goes"... which is part of rape culture!

@Cat Brother: ‘rape culture,’ an amorphous term that like ‘feminist,’ means whatever the speaker wants it to

Given that "rape culture" doesn't refer to specific cultural forces that contribute to rape, but is instead a reference to all of the things (cultural or otherwise) that one could possibly imagine might contribute to rape, it is by definition amorphous.

As an explanation of rape, it's also tautological:
A: "Why do people rape?"
B: "Because of rape culture."
A: "What's rape culture?"
B: It's why people rape."

This makes statements invoking "rape culture" difficult to argue with. The term gives the appearance of making a strong statement without actually committing the speaker to any specific ideas that could generate controversy or be disproved. I suspect this is part of the reason for the term's popularity; that and the fact that anyone who points out the term's rhetorical weaknesses runs the risk of appearing to be unsupportive of rape victims.

Is the fact that Hunter considers CMD lucky an example of rape culture? Hard to say, since the statement leaves it entirely to the listener to figure out which specific causes and effects the speaker has in mind. Of course, the speaker and listener could waste quite a bit of time arguing with each other before realizing they aren't even talking about the same causes or effects.

If we cut out the middle man and instead ask ourselves "Do people like this doctor justify their rapey behavior by assuming incorrectly that young men like being hit on by them?" I think the answer is obviously yes (even though to be completely honest, the assumption is probably correct in my case).

that might well be true hunter. Yet your understanding of human behaviour, never actually seems to change. It stays at the nudge nudge wink wink level; most of the time.
That comment to CMD, was seriously offensive and lacking any depth of perception about a man who also dresses as a woman.
Our culture dismisses such behaviour as ; you know, just not at all what real men do;
This column, all Dan's threads, offer a place where people's way is not treated with such a response.
Interesting you never go on the daily thread; you would be slaughtered there.
As CMD stated @180. He doesn't see himself as representative of male hood. Which to me is perhaps a defensive position to take, given society's response to a male who cross dresses. And little snide remarks from you, just keep that response front and centre.
I perceive CMD as a representative of manhood. I find his posts, his presentation of himself as sexy.
CMD, I don't see why you can't represent both; manhood and queer
hood.

@185: Bravo, LG!

Lava 185 - The 'daily thread?' That's a thing?
184 - Sean, I agree."..."... but is instead a reference to all of the things (cultural or otherwise) that one could possibly imagine might contribute to rape," yes. And as Han Solo said, some people can imagine quite a bit, Including, depending on who's speaking, as we've seen in this and other threads, porn.
Though as Bi clarified, she wasn't quoting the Doctor as an example of rape culture, an assumption that confused me, but Hunter's response to CMD's experience.

Funny CatB. Yes, it's a thing. The people who comment on Dan's daily posts, never see them here. Some of them tear each other's teeth out. And there it is, like I wrote above; you guys cover each others' arse. Such a response just says to hunter, it's fine mate. You just keep being a sexist, closed minded jerk.

You guys forget what it was to be a 20 yr old young man. My youngest will be 19 this year, and while he's slowly getting his life together as an adult, I'd say he'd be appalled if a female Dr tried to touch him in an inappropriate way.

Mainstream porn is mentioned CatB, and yes I do believe it contributes to some men looking at women as objects for males to do things to.
Women as subjects, porn where women's pleasure is also involved, then not so much. Here women are people not objects.

And I feel there is a misunderstanding re rape culture. It refers to a continuum of behaviours, not only actual rape.
a woman treated like an 'it ' as she is cat called walking down the street, that is rape culture.

188 - Is it like a Twitter feed? Seriously do not know what you're talking about.
Teeth-tearing, eh? As opposed to the prim politeness that reigns here... Nobody's covering for anybody, and I, and several others have noted that what the Dr did was an asshole move, and are sorry that CMD had to deal with it.
183 Bi -Can't agree, unless 'rape culture' becomes so amorphous as to be useless. It's like saying " 'college freshmen like to drink beer' is contributing to rape culture, because it's a stereotype, and some rapes occur with alcohol involved." Well, college freshmen do like to drink beer, even if not every freshman is ready any minute to get wasted, same as the average 15-year old boy is really horny, even if he's not ready to bang any woman at any time.
188 Lava, I remember being both 20 and a college student, quite well. Not sure what point you're trying to make here. You seem to still think that I'm applauding CMD getting groped by his doc, I'm not.

Men's, and not just teenage/college-age men's, supposed constant horniness can be used to justify to commit crimes or just jerk behavior, by either men or women. I've been groped by both men and women in clubs, and have girls blatantly hit on me with my girlfriend in the next room. Ascribing this to 'rape culture' isn't, IMO, helpful. I just saw this as people doing what they wanted, because they thought they could, which is an umbrella that goes beyond rape.

Hunter- looks like there’s a spike in attempted blows under the belt coming my way. You also seem to try and hold me hostage when you have ongoing arguments with some others here.
Please clarify.

Hunter; I'm giving you full warning. If you don't stop these offensive posts to people, I intend to email Dan and ask for you to be banned from SL. And I will continue to email him until he takes it seriously. You just don't get it, do you? These threads are for people to feel safe, to be in their strength.. No matter what their gender, kink or how they dress. You consistently demean people. Enough.

Yes, CatB. That is rape culture as well. Women hitting on men as if they had no choice. You can call it some other name if you choose.. A rose by any other name and all.

Hunter @ 196
“Sometimes it's hard to let a punchline waste”
It is still a good idea to consider what punchlines may mean for others prior to publication, regardless the level of sophistication.

CMD, I think I was unclear on how Hunter’s posts were affecting you.
OK, Hunter, knock it off. It was middling funny, not half, and obviously CMD, who we’re all fond of, doesn’t appreciate it.
I’ve had more than a few jokes fall flat. That’s not a moral failing, but time to wrap this particular one up.

Hey! No hitting CMD below the belt unless you've first obtained enthusiastic consent, folks!

CB @187

Lava 185 - The 'daily thread?' That's a thing?

See here: http://www.thestranger.com/archive/savag…
The articles named "Savage Love Letter of the Day" = "the daily thread". In practice it's less than daily and there are regularly reruns of older letters.

Sean,
If we cut out the middle man and instead ask ourselves "Do people like this doctor justify their rapey behavior by assuming incorrectly that young men like being hit on by them?" I think the answer is obviously yes (even though to be completely honest, the assumption is probably correct in my case).

This goes back to LateBloomer's point about mixed messages. Why do men send dick pics? Because occasionally, one in a thousand recipients is happy to get it. Why did this doctor take liberties with her male patients? Because, undoubtedly, at least a few of them were receptive.

I take the point that "rape culture" is about as amorphous as Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's definition of obscenity as "I know it when I see it."

Hunter, I agree that males, on the whole, suffer less than women do, for many reasons. But that doesn't mean it's okay to negate it. That's like saying racism against Asians isn't a problem because blacks suffer more. Men being (generally more) horny is no justification for abusing them. I know that we all know this -- but it was something I had to learn, I had to overcome the programming that all guys would be pleased to get an offer of sex from me as a female. The problem isn't so much with us grownups.

Thanks for those expressing support.
My @ 198 wasn’t necessarily personal. It is more of a reminder/request that prior to posting punchlines one needs to be a bit more aware of their possible impact on others.

Those lines may seem funny and smart at first, but once you notice a pattern they lose their punch and become mostly annoying nagginglines, often containing marginal offensive content.

Disagree re porn's impact on society.

Almost all of the straight porn out there follows a script as detailed as an 18th century gavotte. Its payoff is a passionless, methodical guy coming onto the face or other bodily part of his partner, who is of course transported by ecstasy. I have never had sex with a woman who (at least to me) said she wanted or enjoyed this. But in porn, it's the norm.

Okay, so we have fantasies of mastery and degradation, and need to be GGG about them. I get it. But the sheer ubiquity of this scenario has driven out almost every other possibility. This damages society by convincing men that women want to be degraded in this way, and women that men want to do so, by and large.

It also deprives us of good sex in porn. Sure, there are a few specialty sites out there, most of them pretty gauzy. (Indeed, 'female-friendly' is how they are marketed as if they're something guys have to put up with, while rolling their eyes.)

I take this personal because I really enjoy a well-earned orgasm, preferably that involves several helpless, shuddering moans. Once I smashed a hole in her bedroom wall. And I really enjoy hard sex in a spirit of caring for and about one another. Both of these are pretty much absent in porn.

I'm lucky I got a chance to figure this out in a previous era. I'm sure younger people do too, but they do so in spite of the prevailing role models. Gotta think this is behind much of today's attitudes of suspicion and wariness about sex in relationships.