Thank you Dan, re your answer to the question on porn. No, we don't want kids to learn from porn how to do intimacy/ sex.
And no SL. I'm not in any way wanting to revisit this topic this week. Think we need a few weeks between bouts. Or maybe months.

wish my current guy would make me slurp his come up from a utensil.

Remind him that eating with utensils isn't just kinky, it's also good manners.

This is crying out for a "good to the last drop" joke.

@2: Unless the utensil is a fork. I mean, talk about a mess.

How about a straw? Suck, Suck.

First or second cousin, not big sister - unless the question clearly came from a woman and it was homophobia(F) that was meant. There are plenty of women defending people throwing us off buildings (no doubt there's corresponding compliance the other way) - and John Mortimer foresaw how the tolerance of intolerance would play out as far back as 2002 - well before there was much talk of the progressive stack.

Re “ate his come with a spoon” – I’d advise trying a little harder to find someone she actually enjoys fucking in real life – and then tell her not to worry about how often she fantasizes about the ex.

I also think the bi girl might take some time just to get out in the world and meet people, and see what kind of energy emerges with the ones she finds interesting & attractive. Some people may bring out her inner dom; some her inner sub; and some her inner switch. Have the relationships you can have with the people you're drawn to date and don't fret about slotting yourself into a role.

Re "made me eat his come with a spoon. I loved it"
I'm still not fully sure as for the spoon-feddie's gender. My initial reading was a he, which was somewhat enhanced by the real or imagined repercussions-free jokes about the subject

"terrified middle-schooler" is a state of mind, not an age bracket.

Lol. Genius. And very true.

I also thought the spoon-craving lw is a man. I don't know why.

Not that it makes a difference. Good table manners are good table manners.

Spoon, now I have heard it all.
Dan gave some good advice for someone who can't make their male partner come. The assumption that they can get themselves off, particularly in your presence, doesn't hold true for all women... unfortunately. I've been with a woman who couldn't come in a partner's presence, and with a woman who had never come (sadly, I was unable to reverse this unfortunate trend, try as my twentysomething ego and I did). "Don't take it personally" is the first advice I'd have included.

I'm still thinking about the spoon thing. Did he come directly on the spoon? Did he come somewhere else and then retrieve the load with a spoon? I want to know the logistics.
Also, LW cites "had a big dick" as something she misses, maybe her current BF has a smaller dick that doesn't do it for her? She could buy a big toy and try to incorporate in their sex lives, if the new BF is okay with it.

@13, I'm thinking he came into a nice ceramic cup. Coming directly onto a spoon.. just doesn't have the right aesthetic.
Into a ceramic cup, then
this person( male/female/ other), just spooned it out, with a special
come eating spoon.
Surely it wasn't returned to the cutlery drawer.

@13, He probably came on the lw's stomach, and then ladled up the semen from the pool it had formed in the belly button-area.

"What do you do when you can't make your parter come?"
Well, first of all, is your partner bothered by the inability to come? Is this a bigger deal for you than it is for him/her/them? Most importantly, is this an every-time thing, a one-time thing (that you are concerned may become a more-frequent thing) or a first-time thing (and who knows if this will set the tone for the rest of the relationship)?

These are different scenarios and probably warrant different responses.

First times with new partners can often be awkward and clunky. Many people--women, but also men--don't come the first time with someone new, either from nerves or anxiety or the inability to relax or trust enough. Often it takes a couple of sessions for the sex to fully ramp up as you learn each other's bodies and responses and find your mutual pacing and rhythm. Sometimes this goes effortlessly, but generally there are some false starts early on, before you lean each other.

If your partner offers to get themself off In the moment, let them do that. Or suggest that they get themselves off while you watch, because you think that's sexy, or help in some way (touching nipples, licking a neck, dirty-narrating, whatever). Listen to them or take non-verbal cues if it seems like your "help" isn't helping. Or simply let things de-escalate without turning it into a frustration session. Maybe switch to cuddling. Don't appear irritated. Don't take it personally.

Then later, ask some questions, but not in a way that sounds like the Inquisition. Does your partner typically have a difficult time coming? Do they have a harder time coming with a partner then when masturbating alone? What would they like to do about it or what do they want you to do or try? What is their attitude?

If the partner can come or come easily alone or has with other partners, then you try to find a way to replicate that. If the person never comes at all, you can still make that a goal, but shouldn't be approached like the search for the grail. This puts more pressure on the non-orgasmic partner.

@13, He probably came on the lw's stomach, and then ladled up the semen from the pool it had formed in the belly button-area.

I know that I aspire to be "a thoughtful, informed, and critical consumer of porn." Why isn't there a Porn Consumer Reports where I can find helpful tips and reliable porn reviews?

@7: Your quote: "ate his come with a spoon" has the unfortunate catchiness of a really good nursery rhyme. This is an ear-worm I'd rather not have, thanks.

thanks everyone for the answers! blowing it on her face/body and then collecting it with a spoon sounds indeed way sexier than just pulling out and shooting into some kitchen utensil... that seemed quite awkward and cold to me.

Another positive contribution of porn is that it seems (the evidence is only anecdotal) to act as a safety valve for relieving sexual tension that might otherwise be acted on violently.

Blackwood @22: Oh, but picturing an array of beakers and cutlery was so much more fun!

There once was a man from Puckoon
Who used his wife as a spittoon.
He had a huge dick
His cum was so thick
She had to eat it with a spoon.

What do you do when you can't make your partner come?

Try offering to eat it with a spoon. Seems to work for this one person I know.

Or, you could fondle his balls, tickle his asshole, talk dirty, moan, put on some sexy leg wear, call him "daddy", hand him a joint, put your hair in pigtails, tell him you're a bad girl who needs a spanking, offer up a tit to play with, speed up, slow down, put some feeling into it, sock puppets...

Don't eat when reading Dan Savage, I says to myself. You know better. But I'm hungry, I have a snack here, and it'll probably be ok. It's not like I will have a bunch of visuals of spooned up cum feeding shoved in my brain whilst I attempt to eat my yogurt.

Oh, wait...

"Another positive contribution of porn is that it seems (the evidence is only anecdotal) to act as a safety valve for relieving sexual tension that might otherwise be acted on violently."

Yeah. Until the mere fantasy of rape (which up until now was projected onto the female porn star) jus' ain't doin' it no more and the desire to "project it onto" some real-life, off-screen woman becomes too strong to be contained by the "safety valve" of porn.

If our society really needs an outlet through which people can satisfy their sexually violent urges so that they don't go out and actually rape someone, well I'm not sure I'd call that outlet a "positive contribution."

I knew that post @23 was gonna be trouble.

@23. So, from this statement, I'm assuming you are talking of people out there.. men, I assume.. who have little impulse control? So, is this a situation that effects just a few men, many men, the majority of men? Their mind just not developed enough to control themselves, is this what you are saying,

Hunter@15

Thank you! As a woman who is Just not going to come every single time, I appreciate it when a man understands that I can still really really like sex and get a lot of physical pleasure out of it even if it doesn't end with a bang. This used to be a really big issue for me, when I was younger and single. I came less often, and the youthful egos of the guys I was with just could not accept it. I started to fake it out of sheer self-defense. As I got older I found that a number of factors conspired to help me become more orgasmic. Having children helped (I had been told it would, and it was true!) as did being married and with one partner looooong term. I can't speak for any other women, but I find coming easier and easier with every year I spend with my husband. Maybe it just took me several years to really relax and trust him enough to let go completely. We both know, now, that I'll have an orgasm every third or fourth time - But hey! That still averages out to an orgasm a week! And he knows that it's not about his technique or about how much i love him. I still struggle sometimes, wondering what is wrong with me, but mostly I accept that it's just my nature. My husband and I have a pretty great sex life, and it's due in n small part to his ability to accept me the way I am.

Saxfanatic @20
I attempted to be such a reviewer last week to a link provided by Philo. If you have any links or subject matters you’d like share please do so.

But what I’d really, really like is to be the SL lingerie correspondent.
As such, here is my entry to the BDF poetry event:

I opened the door, she was there like before
Black lace robe on, a red box on the floor
I kneeled, opened it, oh my, white lace and pink
She smiled, kissed my cheek, “Well love, what do you think?
Go ahead, try it on, it’s all yours.”

I have to comment that I hate the phrase "finish yourself off."

I much prefer asking a partner if they want to "lend a hand." It doesn't imply anything about the goal of what we're doing, or how long we're going to be doing it, it's just invitational and friendly.

Marcelina @28: Until the mere fantasy of rape (which up until now was projected onto the female porn star) jus' ain't doin' it no more and the desire to "project it onto" some real-life, off-screen woman becomes too strong to be contained by the "safety valve" of porn.

Are you seriously trying to say that porn leads to rape? Do you have any evidence of that whatsoever?

CMD. Im fine for you to be a Lingerie Correspondent.. Just not sure what one of these do. Poem is sweet. Are there more stansas to share with us?

I'm still trying to get my head around Dan saying he gives the dick back. Do some men have detachable ones?
American invention I guess. Nothing so advanced here in Oz.

@35: No, I'm not. I'm responding to the post at 23 which states that a "positive contribution" of porn is that it might give people (presumably het men) a safe outlet which prevents them from raping.

Dan: Thanks for this week's SL live from San Fransisco and the Qs and As.
Bless you for asserting that we don't want kids learning about intimacy through porn (agreed with LavaGirl @1).

WOW---sex with her ex--they fucked hard, and she lapped up his come with a spoon.
Dan, you mentioned handing his dick back and going out for ice cream? Oh, wait---that was if the partner couldn't come.

Griz Update (for those interested; otherwise scroll down to the next SL comment): Dan and everybody: the automotive love of Grizelda's life is getting an long overdue restoration, and looks so hot I'm afraid my beloved might soon dump me for a Karmann Ghia. Time for us to hit the beach!

One last dumb question to Dan: how long before the elephant's-butt-ugly Teapublican Party finally kills, eats, and craps itself into extinction--and hopefully we can finally regain our democracy and respect of the world back?

Who the hell thought porn was instructional? You couldn't discern the artifice from the slap bass and that one constant dropped arm?

Hello Griz! Good to hear from you!
Lolorhone @40: Teenagers.

Hunter @27: Ouch, bit harsh. I suppose it depends entirely on whether the failure to come is a chronic or an occasional issue, and whether it's partner-specific.

In general, your point is valid. As I observed in my 20s, "Women have to learn how to come; men have to learn how not to." As with everything, there are exceptions. If only 18-year-old me had known how to use my words when I found myself with a guy who kept banging away for more than three hours. If only I'd had the confidence to say, "I'm getting tired. Can we get you off some other way so we can get some sleep?" rather than continuing to make increasingly insincere noises in the hopes they'd trigger his orgasm. If only I'd known then that not all men come from intercourse, or that continuing to moan might have sent the opposite message -- "keep going!"

Thank goodness 40-year-old me had learned to use my words, when I found myself with another marathon man. Who knew that saying things like "I want you to come too" or "It's your turn, baby" would have the effect we both desired? Sadly, this partner told me I was the only person to encourage him to take his turn; he'd been operating for 30 years on the assumption that more is always more. Who knows how many hours of sleep he'd wasted pumping away at women who were mentally willing him to just finish already? We women are socialised that it's rude to stop the sex before the guy comes, but men aren't mind readers either, and some take the "don't come too quickly" approach to extremes.

I second, or is it third, the nomination of CMD as lingerie correspondent. I neglected to comment on the satin bloomers, but I approve of these; they'd look great under the slutty maid's outfit CMD will wear to scrub my kitchen floor.

After I accidentally typed the word "rape" instead of "rate" when doing some work yesterday, I am not going to make any comment whatsoever on the P-word or the R-word this week. Back to using SL as light entertainment during my dull work day.

@37, @23's post has some basis in reality, given that research shows a correlation between access to porn and declining rape rates. This doesn't mean that porn is being used a rape subsitute at all; it's more likely that free societies wherein people are less repressed sexually are just less dangerous for women.

Your "response," which basically paints porn as training wheels for rape, has no basis in fact. At all. It's the exact sort of language that might be advanced by Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson... Or other people who seeks to undermine the agency of individuals in a free society to advance their religious or political views.

So I'm glad you don't actually mean your response they way that you typed it. It's just a crazy, unsubstantianted hypothethical that you won't stand behind. Awesome! I guess everybody should take your responses with a grain of salt.

kitschnsync @ 44
I'll just shut up and keep cleaning BDF's place.
The regulars learned their lesson last week, you're on your own.

Haha. :) That's ok, I have truth on my side.

I expect Marcelina will be along shortly trying to explain herself further. If "the regulars" here are already hip to her BS, maybe I shouldn't engage.

Sorry for derailing the fun.

@46: The poster at 23 did not say that there is a correlation between access to porn and declining rape rates. He/she said that porn acts "as a safety valve for relieving sexual tension that might otherwise be acted on violently." Not sure how else you can possibly interpret that statement except that porn is an outlet for violent sexual urges. But you're welcome to try.

Kitsch @46: Read last week's comment thread for a laugh. The last two weeks, actually.

*passes CMD some pink rubber gloves*

kitschnsync,

No worries. This is how I learn. I know there's been some research on porn and rape and that it goes against the "Against Our Will" hypothesis that porn causes rape, but I didn't say anything because I was too lazy to search for, examine and summarize it. So I'm glad you did.

Yeah well, don't put in that category CMD. Ie; the regulars learnt their lesson.
@ 44. who the fuck knows what porn does and doesn't do, and what influence it has had and hasn't had.
It's influence over time has been is insidious.

Jesus. Sorry re absent and added words.

This research Alison. You got a link to it.

I'd make a guess that some low intelligent/ mentally disturbed men are encouraged by porn to rape. They see moving visuals of women's pussies and they want a bit. No studies to back it up.
Just a guess.
Marcelina. A suggestion, if I may.
Let it go, for now. Two weeks of going over this stuff is enough.

Should we try a different approach to lighten things up? Maybe share funny/embarrassing sex stories? We're all anonymous here...

We're all anonymous here...

Nope.

EricaP @34: I agree. The phrasing "finish someone off" always sounds to me like you're going to kill them.

BiDanFan @42: I *so* wish I had known that as a 20-something! And I wish men knew it, too. Too many minutes of consecutive PIV is just not fun. If you want to delay coming, do it by mixing things up, not by pounding away at a poor girl for hours on end while thinking about baseball.

I think one problem is the feeling that PIV is "real" sex (for OSers) and everything else foreplay. So you start with making out, progress to groping, then maybe some oral, and then it's PIV: orgasm or bust. Which is so often not the best way to orgasm, for either partner! If we were better at communicating to youngsters that it's all sex, maybe people would be willing to "backtrack" more!

@52 "I'd make a guess that some low intelligent/ mentally disturbed men are encouraged by porn to rape. They see moving visuals of women's pussies and they want a bit. No studies to back it up"

And you won't find any studies that will back it up, either.

@BiDanFan: who kept banging away for more than three hours

Is this an exaggeration?

I love sex, but this makes no sense to me on any level, unless you're trying to break a world record or something. I mean, 3 hours of languorous sex where you're maybe starting out in the bath, working in some massage, and trading off various modes of foreplay, or mixing in some role playing some scenes, with multiple orgasms and a couple of weed and bathroom breaks mixed in would be awesome. But 3 hours of autistic pounding? What's the point of that?

The only potential upside is that if I did manage to fuck someone for 3 straight hours, I'd come so hard the load would likely include several of my lower vertebrae.

Sadly, this partner told me I was the only person to encourage him to take his turn; he'd been operating for 30 years on the assumption that more is always more.

This blows my mind. I don't think I've been with a woman who didn't start feeling discomfort after 25(?) minutes or so and was too shy to let me know. And even if they don't say something right away, you can sense the tension in their body.

"I want you to come too"

Has me wondering if not coming until told was an unconscious manifestation of the guy's submissiveness.

Sean @57: "Is this an exaggeration?"

Nope.
I can't remember if he eventually did come or if I finally just fell asleep.

"Has me wondering if not coming until told was an unconscious manifestation of the guy's submissiveness."

I think it was just a desire to not finish until the woman was completely satisfied. I've had to tell other partners that I was ready for them to come, or ask if they were close (as a clear indication of "okay, I'm ready for the sex to be done"). There wasn't a D/s element in this particular relationship.

Off topic, I love that there is currently an ad for a weed shop and an ad for pizza delivery right next to each other. Marketing genius.

Could you walk the next day, Fan? The resilience of youth.

I've tried to think of some funny sex stories. My memory is shot, which makes me feel depressed, useless and old. So thanks Fan. You've really made my day.

Just kidding. No, my memory is sorta shot. Sometimes I feel that's a good thing.
Hi Grizelda. Nice to hear your wheels are getting a little face lift.
Still feels like the middle of summer some days here. I'm sure autumn can't be far off. Waiting. Waiting.

Aw, sorry Lava! I do remember being sore. And very, VERY tired.

I'll start the funny stories then. This one is almost able to be told in mixed company, since it happened while I was married. We were having sex, I was on top, and he stops me. What's wrong? I ask. Look behind you, he says. So I turn and there is our cat, sitting expectantly on dear hubby's legs. I shoo the cat away and we resume, in doggy position. The cat jumps back on the bed, walks around in front of me and bats me in the face!
We then chucked the cat out of the room and shut the door.

I do have a funny story, but it involves a kung-fu comic book and a 3-nunchaku technique called ‘The Ghostly Howl.’

And a girl named Nikki.

Go on, CatB. And?

Marcelina- a thoughtful granny told me I should be a bit more welcoming to you.
She told me I probably anticipated that myself when I joined and she’s right.
I came here full-blown over a year ago and I still remember Erica P giving me thoughtful and useful advice, backed by all sorts of links. I also remember trying to explain my “situation” to Lava and Philo some time later, which helped me clarifying the matter to myself.

Rest assured, I got into some heated debates in here myself, yet I find this community in general to be very accepting and forgiving.
Hunter just got a thank you from a woman the other day, and I suspect he’s still blushing.

What I do find most unique is that many of us are able to talk about our struggles as well as how we cope with them.
It was only after couple of years in SAA, in order to arrest “compulsive behavior,” that I came to terms with my female self. What I found most inspiring was seeing other “people like myself.”
I often witness it here when others step up and clarify things regarding people like themselves.
Lava keeps telling us that young people all over the world read this blog, some of us take it seriously for some reason.

What I also find here on occasion is significant disparity between real life experiences on one side and research and academia on the other.
As a long time selective consumer of porn I think I am more than qualified to an opinion of my own. So are submissive feminists who must have struggled with the issue, frustrated doms, or my very own and extremely reasonable desire to clean BDF’s kitchen floor.

You seem to have seen it all on the very negative side of it. Your opinion certainly counts and should be taken into consideration. As painful as it is, it may not be the whole picture and others are still entitled to their own shticks.

As for me, I wouldn’t clean anybody’s kitchen floor. One needs to prove ME they deserve it: intelligence, attitude, imagination, and the ability to communicate it on all different levels.

Welcome!

Thoughtful Granny. Thanks CMD. I'm a thoughtful Woman first. Im glad you wrote @66. I love you again.

And nobody calls me granny. Lola is the name my grandchild calls me.

Funny story: I was engaged in a scene while watching coverage of the Democratic Convention in 2008. I was trying to last until Barack appeared to accept the nomination but I accidentally came earlier, while Al Gore was speaking. Ever since, I've had a bit of a soft spot for Al...

Got any advice for a bi girl, formerly submissive, who wants to start dominating men?
Why only men? I would think that men who appreciated orders out of the bedroom might appreciate orders in the bedroom, I would think that's the safest way to test for a compatible match here.

Dan really nailed most of the answers this week. Not much to talk about..

Kitchnsync- If "the regulars" here are already hip to her BS, maybe I shouldn't engage.
I'm hip to your bs. There's a difference between posters who come here to share a point of view that's missing from the dialogue, and posters who just criticize others or try to shame them into silence.

I responded to LB, NoCute and CMD on last week's thread.

Well, gang, it's been real, but in the immortal words of the literary genius Donald Fagen: "I believe I just got the goodbye look."

Best.

Not from me, Marcelina.

@70: Thanks for the alert to last week's thread, Philophile. I hadn't looked there in a long time, and there were several messages I missed. I responded there.

Yes, Cat @63/64. Don't be a tease.

CMD @66: Thank you for your post. You've made me realise that I too have been too harsh with Marcelina. She got my hackles up with her post which simultaneously dismissed a LW's own ability to determine what she likes and doesn't like and insulted men's oral sex abilities, for no good reason that I could see. Perhaps she was trying to be funny. I'm sure I've made some posts here that haven't come across the way I intended. Marcelina, despite your strong biases which no doubt come from having immersed yourself in the worst effects of porn and rape culture, you're clearly intelligent and have some good points to make. You might have told me to go away, but I won't return the disfavour. Please stick around. I'll try to be less confrontational.

Lava @67: How about crone?

Squidgie @69: Ha! :)

Philo @70: "Why only men?"
Trust me, the dynamic can be very different in SS vs OS BDSM. (Apologies for the acronym soup.) Speaking for myself, a huge part of the desire to dominate men comes from the desire to subvert traditional gender roles. Traditionally, men dominate and women submit; dominating men turns those roles on their heads, which I find extremely hot. That element is missing from FF interactions.

And speaking only from experience, as Google is turning up absolutely nothing, I've encountered a far higher proportion of dominant women among women who like women. Maybe it's me, and I just like bad-ass women who are more likely to be dominant in bed too, but Craigslist ads bear out a higher incidence of dominant L/Bi women. (I haven't investigated FetLife.) JibeHo, if you are here, is this your experience too?

So this LW may find herself a much rarer bird if she focuses on dominating men.

CMD @66: Don't worry, I didn't skip over your kind compliment. Thank you! Submission is a gift and I am honoured. :)

No Fan. Crone doesn't do it for me either. Should it? Should I embrace such a word..
I'm reading how more and more people are dropping dead in their sixties. So if I suddenly dissapear, don't speak too ill of me. That great female architect has just died at 65. Can't think of her name. Owing to the memory loss.
A joint would go well about now.

To paraphrase Homer Simpson: "Weed: the cause of, and solution to, all of life's memory loss problems."

Crone is a word for a wise older woman. You can embrace it or not. I won't use it if you don't like it. How about elder stateswoman? :)

Is LateBloomer around? I have some thoughts I could post on last week's thread, but only if he's going to go back and read them.

Philophile @70: There's a difference between posters who come here to share a point of view that's missing from the dialogue, and posters who just criticize others or try to shame them into silence.

Hmmph. Well, I thought I was adding something to the dialogue. Individual opinions may vary. I'm OK with that.

It's true that I'm critical more often than not, and I'll completely cop to it. I'll try to be better; I know that I've been an asshole to people in this thread before, and I'm sure most of them are nice people. But just because I'm an asshole doesn't mean my opinions are invalid.
And I probably seem like a drive-by asshole to the people who spend vast amounts of time in Savage Love threads every week. I come here for Seattle news primarily, and Savage Love is just a diversion for me. It seems like more of an obession for some.

FWIW, I've been on this site longer than almost everyone on the thread. I've met many (now former) Stranger writers IRL, and some love my snarkiness. The Stranger used to run a sister site with a system to rate comments, and I sat on the top of that leaderboard for a long time, along with the departed Fnarf and another commenter who has never appeared on Slog. I met my significant other there. That was six years ago.
Now, I don't mention all this stuff to establish my bona fides with you, but to illustrate a point: I'm not here to shame anyone into silence. I get a lot from interacting with the Stranger commentariat, even if you don't like the way I do it. I have formed deep, meaningful, face-to-face relationships because of these forums, I attend events (even porn festivals!) organized by the staff, and I live and work in the same neighborhood as the people who produce the content we're all enjoying.

When I see some fantasy police wannabe blithely insinuating that porn leads to rape in this generally sex-positive place, you can bet your fucking ass I'll call them on it. You're welcome. Have a great day!

Thank you, Kitsch.
Second me as someone who's pleased as punch that Marcelina went back down her hole, and hopefully pulled it in after her. The Fisher-Price logic, false equivalencies, and preening self-regard made her the kind of dumpster fire that brings this whole site down.
Marci, dahling, from the twee profile pic (“I'm really just a cute kid on the inside, folks! Don't you like me? Just a little? Please?”) to the stream of made-up statistics and hey-this-worked-great-in-college epithets, you're the very last thing from a Truth Speaking Vanguard: you're a fucking JarJar Binks of feminism, the charicature so extreme we're torn between amusement and disgust, the kind that scripture foretold and Rush Limbaugh would put on the air daily if he knew you were out there, the kind that will tank that particular franchise:
“MEESA LIKE MAKE-OUT! MEESA ALSO HAD ASS GRABBED! THREE TIMES! MEESA KNOW ALLLLLL ABOUT SEXUAL ASSAULT, JUST LIKE ACTUAL RAPE VICTIM!'
Mongols used to catapult diseased bodies into cities they wanted to take without fighting; if I could clone Marelina and put her in heavy rotation online and in radio, the American Family Foundation would dump money on my head. As Brother William of Baskerville said re the Bishop of Jaffa, she is of that group who are ever their enemy's greatest champions.

“I'm used to being responded to with hostility, because I'm telling uncomfortable truths,” she said. As Pooh used to say, Tigger, please. It's because you're immediately recognizable as the kind soft bratty twat we all thought we'd left behind in undergrad, who was convinced the normal travails that life sent her way were earth-shattering and that the weight of the world was on her for delivering the Lowdown her Wymyn's Studies 101 teacher had just laid on her:
“Oh shit, here comes Marcie again, look down and pretend not to see her. She's wearing her backpack and walked here, I'm sure she's gonna tell us how she knows exactly what it's like to be a peasant mother working the fields in Central America...”
“Dude, can't be as bad as when someone bumped her at that kegger and for the next week she was claiming to be 'just like a battered wife.”
Know what else we noticed about you then, Marcie? You got off on bullying people, once you found that they quailed being called 'rape apologists' and such, and it became a habit. Just like the guys who said anyone against the Iraq war were terrorist-lovers and hated America. Real jerks, those guys, right?
I've PM'd with a couple members here, and one mentioned what a load of bollocks Marcelina's views on amateur porn and whatnot were, but said “...and if I brought that up, she'd immediately call me an MRA rape apologist..” Yep, prolly so...I have no problem popping my claws and entering the fray, but a lot of people would just rather go elsewhere, people whose contributions enrich the board.
She wasn't SeattleBlues or LovesChild, but she didn't elevate the conversation, at best she served as a reminder how much like the extreme right the extreme left can be.

+1 Grade of Execution to Mr Cat for spelling Wymyn's with two Ys to indicate the plural.

How fortunate to be able to pass up the obvious Kinks reference for one a bit more arcane. I can't decide whether Ms Fan is or isn't familiar with What They Did to Princess Paragon.

@79 " from the twee profile pic (“I'm really just a cute kid on the inside, folks! Don't you like me? Just a little? Please?”) "

Not that this has anything to do with the rest of your statement, but I definitely don't consider the kid from Pet Sematery to be the best example of adorableness.

BDF I bailed because I was being kind of inarticulate, and then the discussion got heavy and my point seemed kind of irrelevant anyway. But if you have something to add I'd be interested.

JibeHo, if you're here, I answered you at length on last week's thread.

Late: OK, I've posted there now. I had a minor brain fart and used the wrong user name (even though I was searching the thread for "LateBloomer") -- so please just skip past that to the substance ;)

Venn: I'm not familiar with Princess Paragon, though Wiki's description makes it sound like an enjoyable read indeed. I am more familiar with the Kinks though I fear I am missing that reference too.

It's not an obsession, it's a hobby!

@kitschnsync: FWIW, I've been on this site longer than almost everyone on the thread.

Fascinating. I think I've been here from pretty much from the beginning. Not sure if that's a source of pride or shame. I used to post as "Sean" before someone else started using the same name (this was before commenter registration).

The Stranger used to run a sister site with a system to rate comments

What site was this???

I've met many (now former) Stranger writers IRL

Me, too, although I've never had the courage to let them know who I was.

What bullshit CatB. Funny, in the time I've been here I haven't seen you or really any other man, except CMD, stand up to Hunter or Mr E. The former has spewed out such sexist and women demeaning words over and over and over. Mr E, with his crazy loops.
Marcelina's take comes from the rage a lot of us women feel. I didn't see her point of view as anything but feminist. And she stood her ground. And good on you Philo for standing up for her too. wtf.

Well, Lava, then we disagree on our definition of ‘feminism.’ The ground she stood on, especially relating to people’s motivations, and porn, was extremely shaky and not worth defending, IMO. Where exactly her rage came/comes from, is a matter for her therapist, though I have indeed seen several like her, motivated a lot less than a quest for justice and a lot more by ‘hey, exercising power feels pretty good, when I’m the one swinging the club!’
We have a politician over here these days, perhaps you’ve heard of him, name of Trump. He seems to be successfully tapping into some rage among (mostly) undereducated, less-than-affluent white people, who in many instances have the right to be angry. Except what these voters don’t apparently see is that Trump is part of why their jobs went away and they have no healthcare, for starters, and if elected he’d make their lot worse.
Anger is great as a motivator, turned on the wrong targets it just makes the other side’s job easier.
I actually have called Eud on it when he’s gone out of bounds, he wasn’t receptive, not much else to do. I completely missed Hunter stalking Mydrasis (sp?) that you alluded to last week, don’t know what thread that was in. Him talking today about what panties Rachel Maddow wears I find more...off...than offensive, same if a female poster wondered about (random male journalist’s) taste in underwear.

@86 -- aw shucks. *bashful grin*

seandr @89, You're the only person in this thread whom I think was here before I was. I moved to Seattle in 2004 and started making comments here and on the now-defunct forums.thestranger.com, which had a very clique-y and dedicated userbase right up until its end. Slog made people register to make comments in 2009. We're both in that thread.

As you'll recall, before then people could choose their username each time they left a comment, which of course led to rampant trolling and impersonations. I remember debate about the merit of having registered comments and the loss of anonymity; now I wonder how long we have here before we have to use a Facebook or Disqus sign-in. I think the work Hecht did to get MyStrangerFace running is the only thing saving us from that fate.

The sister site with a rating system was Questionland, an interesting concept that Tim Keck bankrolled for a year or two in Portland and Seattle. (For those readers of Savage Love that don't know, Tim Keck is a brilliant guy whom you can thank for the Stranger and the Onion.)

Again, my only point in going over all this stuff is just to point out that this is as much my community as anyone's. I'm certainly not someone who just drops in to harass people, and I think my commenting history (which I leave visible) bears that out.

I've never had the courage to let them know who I was

Why not? One day the masks may all come off here, you know. It's a good rule of thumb to not make any comments that you wouldn't own up to in person. I certainly haven't seen you do anything monstrous.

Yeah because you guys are so ingrained with covering each others' arses, you don't see. Hunter has continued for all the time I've been here to invalidate , humiliate and talk of women offensively.
Apologies if you called Mr E out.
And don't try to equate Marcelina with Trump. She was talking of the offensiveness of porn and the fact there is a rape culture.
Most porn is offensive to some Women. Rape culture does exist; most women have experienced it. Again, two whole weeks trying to convince men who should listen and learn, that women feel this culture all around them all the time.
And porn, who the fuck knows what effect it has had?

Lavagirl @90: Marcelina's take comes from the rage a lot of us women feel. I didn't see her point of view as anything but feminist.

Yeah, not all feminists would agree with you. Don't take this the wrong way, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that you, Marcelina and Philophile are all part of an entirely different generational cohort than most sex-positive feminists. The anti-porn strain of feminism is not at all as common among younger women.

After a cursory reading of last week's thread, I see that Philophile took the confusing position of standing up against porn made for the male gaze while advocating for porn made for women. That seems rather hypocritical to me, but that's neither here nor there when it comes to the original point I made in this thread: Porn does NOT cause rape, no matter your personal opinion on it.

Yeah right,Kitschnsync @96. Younger women , most of them, have little choice. Porn pre dated them, they get told what is expected of them.
You know fuck all about my feminism. You know nought re what porn effects and what it doesn't effect. It has created cultural expectations for men, about women. It may contribute to some men raping, seeing all that nice pussy flesh they are not offered voluntarily by women to them. We don't really know.
Marcelina and Philo are much younger women than I am. I wasn't brainwashed by easy access video porn neither were the men I got with as a young woman.

CatB; we're mates. No lingering issues , I hope.

You know the world is in big trouble when I’m being hailed as manhood's standard bearer. I’d very much rather being recognized as the lingerie expert that I truly am.

Hunter- I’ll get back to you later re Ms. Meadow’s underworld. Unfortunately they wouldn’t let me search for it while at work. I’ve asked.

Kitsch @ 96 I actually find Philo’s approach to porn to be quite positive and refreshing.

There you go CMD.
Philo and Marcelina, my comment wasn't implying you were brainwashed.
Of course many men and women must use porn to enhance their sexual behaviours. People who think for themselves, can actually talk and negotiate with their partners.
As we see with the brain dead followers of people like Trump, not all people think. Many are not developed enough to realize mainstream porn is just a movie, it's not real life.

I would lean a little more towards communication with the spoon person before looking elsewhere. Some men are trained not to be rough/dominant/selfish in the sack but would be willing to go there, and enjoy it, if they knew their partner was into it. I know for some subs never, ever admitting what they want out loud is part of their thing but if you don't ask for it, you won't get it.

I'm not planning to return to this thread tonight. It is 70 degrees and sunny in Seattle, and Golden Gardens is calling my name... So here are some links for anyone that wants proof that access to porn correlates with a lower incidence of rape.

Scientific American wrote about it here.

Dan Savage covered the topic here (probably among other posts).

Slate covered the topic here.

The studies referenced in these stories can be found here, here and here.

Lavagirl @97, all I really know about you is what you post here. I don't claim anything else.

It may contribute to some men raping, seeing all that nice pussy flesh they are not offered voluntarily by women to them. We don't really know.

Wrong. The assertion is demonstrably false. Read up and educate yourself.

Ok, now I'm really going. Have a great weekend!

Ahem.
"Yeah because you guys are so ingrained with covering each others' arses, you don't see."
Just, no. If I was covering/feeling protective of anyone, it was NoCute. I'm happy to swipe at anyone, regardless of gender. But I won't use that 'zir' nonsense.
Trump is a politician cynically using people's often-legit grievances to further his own agenda. Marcelina was making shit up, like 'most amateur porn is submitted by the guy as revenge,' and drawing tenuous conclusions between things, while hitting those who disagreed with her with labels that many on this board found not just wrongheaded but deeply hurtful.
Porn? Visual porn has been around as long as photos have been, and written porn as long as writing; it's because people, being people, want to be with more than one person, at least part of the time, and because most of us can't make that happen at will, we like to think about it, and get off while we do. You want to change this, good luck.
We actually do know a bit of its effects, or at least in what it doesn't do, same as we know, contrary to Reefer Madness, that marijuana doesn't inevitably lead to harder and harder drugs and addiction then the grave: because we've pretty much all tried it, some use it daily, and that shit doesn't happen. Doesn't mean there aren't any heroin junkies, it just means that if MJ did that, they'd be a fucking plague.
I'm almost 51, so I'm in that cohort that came up with no internet. Well, surprise, we still fantasized about perfect women, we did our best to score magazines that had artfully airbrushed pics of them, Penthouse forum spun us endless tales of sex scenarios that would never, ever, happen (“My Norton's Reader still in my hand, I went to answer the knock on my dorm room door, which opened to reveal the foxiest twins I'd ever seen...”), and we fantasized about the girls around us who were totally out of our league. If anyone thinks we were purer of thought than those who came after, wrong, wrong, wrong.

This is a big can, and it's been opened on SL many times before, but talking about 'porn' is like talking about 'literature,' there's a ton out there, more every day, and most of it is crap. And some of it I'd find non-arousing, some plumb stupid, and some offensive. As Dan has mentioned before, being caught naked on film (see also, getting a tattoo/giving head/admitting to liking sex) is not the career-ender it once was, though it's still a bad idea for most/many, especially those looking to go into specific fields.
If you go on Pornhub and search 'amateur (anything)' (OK, I just did this, for veracity, and for April Fool's they have this whole 'CornHub' page up, 'see this ear get shucked like never before!' Hilarious.). when you get there, I say, what comes up first is homemade stuff done by ordinary-looking people, many of them married, who just get off, I reckon, by other people watching them get it on. Very what I expect Hump! looks like. Again, can't say I'd recommend it to a happy young couple, but not what it was 20-30 years ago.

Cat Brother,

You forgot to insinuate that Marcelina was on the rag.

#105 - Alison - I only do that during serious arguments, often accompanied by a little dance. The woman inevitably sighs, smiles, and says under her breath, “Wow, he really gets me."

... and that LavaGirl needs to get laid.