Savage Love

Mating Games

Comments

1

LW1 related-
Our perception of sex ed is that it’s only needed up to the point when one actually does it. But as I witnessed myself and so many more tell me or write here desperately, sex drives may slow dramatically after child(ren).

There should be more education as to what to expect and how to cope with it. The arrival of a new person is fairly demanding to begin with and the loss of sex life, even if only temporarily, is a devastating blow.
We get lots of people building up life-long resentments without knowing that almost everyone has to go through this.

Any entrepreneurs who can come up with a decent compilation of research and alternative advice? I’ll give your book to the kids on their weddings.

LW2 (and LW1-related):
“at 18 [I] found guys so much darn easier”
Not much changes once you hit 48.
2
HUH-- Also, stop comparing the sex you get to the sex you used to have, and start comparing it to the nothing you're currently getting. Carve out that time for a regular date with your wife. Make it a priority to budget it in when you budget time and money. Maybe that means spending on a babysitter and motel every 2 weeks. Once you're in that motel, don't get all worked up about how this is going to be so great the way it was before you had kids. Instead, try to think of it as pretty good sex now that you've got kids. And don't get into that motel room and go straight to sex. Pack a picnic. Enjoy each others' company. Talk a little. Watch t.v. you both enjoy. Take a shower together. Have sex. Fall asleep. Then go back home.

Also, a word with her gynecologist might help. She might be experiencing some pain that a doctor's intervention could help with.
3
I had a wonderful boyfriend who was very patient and loving during anal. It was a regular part of what we did. Nevertheless, twice during rough vaginal intercourse he accidentally got me in the rear. It was horrible, I felt like puking. He was horrified and just as surprised as me (ok nowhere near as surprised as me, but genuinely accidental). I think we should be aware that both scenarios happen.
4
LW1 I think Dan is right that the wife is probably exhausted. Anything he can do to help her out, help her relax, and make her feel appreciated is likely to work in his favor. There are many times when I am too tired, in too much pain, whatever, and cuddling or a massage without the expectation of sex often leads to more. LW3 I can't even imagine "accidental" anal unless it is something one does regularly. For me, that would likely result in a trip to the doctor and assault charges ;)
5
your wife is currently too exhausted

It's not just exhaustion that kills sex drive in mothers. There are hormonal shifts that happen due to breast feeding or simply being around babies. More problematic for the LW is that some women simply can't reconcile their identity as "mother" with that as "wife", and since they aren't going to abandon their kids, they abandon their partner instead. This tends to produce more lasting sexual droughts.

As for what to do, purchase a new identify on the darknet and one day just leave for work and never come home.
6
If Mr. P. had unilaterally shut down our sex life because it wasn't as hot as it had been before children, I would have assumed he had found someone else to fuck.

If you want to end the marriage, do that. But if you don't, please realize there are probably going to be consequences if you just reject her instead of continuing to have at least some sex together and continuing talking together about how to improve things.
7
LW1: guys so much darn easier

Good god, man, just be thankful you have that option. Last time I was out on the rave prowl, I got hit on by one woman ... my best friend's date. Pffft! The rest of the time was spent with women who seemed interested but (if Dan is to be believed) didn't jump me because they hadn't yet ruled me out as a violent sociopath. Meanwhile, this huge muscly dude walks up, puts his arm around me, tells me I'm "hot as fuck", and when I tell him I'm straight, just keeps repeating "all you need to do is sit back and enjoy" and "don't worry, I won't tell anyone."

Is this therapy worthy?

Therapists have zero training in how to attract pussy. It's a game, and you need to learn the rules. There is a shit ton of applied science out there on how to make a good first impression on women. Read it.
8
You promissed Dan. No More Sexless Marriage questions. Especially, no more ones from bitter middle aged men. And what's with all this sudden concern for a tired mother?
Sorry, LW1, I'm thinking Dan has caught some bug and is not being himself today. So, go fuck the babysitter. It's all the rage with middle aged men.
9
Two weeks in a row Sean, you've won the Oh Really? Award and this week so early in the piece. I mean, you either must be just so gorgeous or not.
Re8; I think promised is spelt with one s. I could be wrong. Like I was wrong thinking going to the Dr was an appointment and now, thanks to Alison in last week's thread, I learn its a date.
10
LW2. Parading around like a horny straight guy, sounds suspiciously inauthentic to me. And player or not, girls in college are probably not in the market for getting the whole family thing happening yet. They may want to develop their careers first.
And read L1.
11
@2: " Make it a priority to budget it in when you budget time and money. Maybe that means spending on a babysitter and motel every 2 weeks." Fichu, I don't know what your income is or where you live, or if you've checked out babysitters' rates these days, but there is no way in hell that my ex-husband and I, both with advanced degrees and working, and with only two kids, not three, could have afforded a babysitter for an evening out for dinner or a movie--not both, with babysitters' rates starting at $12 per hour for a teenager to watch two kids--let alone a babysitter and a motel room (did you mean an overnight stay) even once every two months, let alone once every two weeks.
12
Either LW1 or Mr Savage's associates are not telling us the age of W1. I'll guess 36 or 37, mainly because my cosmic vibrations from the letter was that their connection was almost entirely sexual. There doesn't appear to be any basis on which to assume that they ever liked each other. Sure, they were attracted, but it seems very little else.

I agree with Mr Savage in one respect. This situation is best summed up by the episode of Keeping Up Appearances in which Elizabeth joins Hyacinth in the church's outing of taking senior citizens to a seaside funfair. When Elizabeth rues the day ahead of her and thinks that Emmett, who will not be accompanying the expedition, might be more sympathetic, he chants at her, "You volunteered!"

On the other hand, Viagra seems uncalled for. He's only 48. I shan't mimic certain other members of the assembled company and call him young, but presuming the need for Viagra is the sort of thing that's so far from left field that I'm inclined to suspect sloppy editing of the letter again. To instance another Elizabeth, I shall invoke Elizabeth Castorini, the concert violinist who lured Rumpole to lunch at Rules, where she dissuaded him first from ordering meat on the grounds that the meat eaters around them all looked like chartered accountants, and then from ordering wine, "I don't think we need any artificial stimulants. People should be stimulated enough by each other's company." How Mr Savage avoided going the way of Sebastian Flyte might well repay investigation sometime when we've nothing better to do.
13
As for L2 - the factual part of the advice about relative risk of violence seems to accord with the data (although whether bisexual men are more at risk from men or women is a noteworthy omission), but the conclusion is poorly played, Mr Savage. Do we really want this one? It seems that a much better reply would have been to direct this letter to the attention of the Team Wainthropp Bisexual Recruitment Squad with a note in red pencil that this one's a real catch.
14
Thanks nocutename, there's no way we could afford a night with a babysitter and staying in a motel either! That is fantasy land. Luckily we still like fucking each other.
seandr, I guess "More problematic for the LW is that some women simply can't reconcile their identity as "mother" with that as "wife", and since they aren't going to abandon their kids, they abandon their partner instead" is probably true for many mothers. For me it's the sex that makes all the dreary shit of working and raising children worthwhile. I did say once to a group of friends that if you weren't fucking what's the point of being married because that's the fun stuff, but that went over like a lead balloon!
15
Ms Lava - You forget that I had ample grounds for typecasting Dr Sean as Hot Jimmy in our version of Downton Abbey, though I don't think you were around when most of those ample grounds were provided.
16
11-- nocute I wondered even as I was writing if someone would question the finances in my comment. You're right that my example likely won't work for everyone. I don't think that negates my general idea. Maybe this couple does have the money. Maybe they can ask a grandparent to come over. Maybe they can trade babysitting with another couple. Maybe they can schedule sexy times in their car like teenagers in a 50s movie. Maybe they could ask themselves what they'd do if one of them got sick. That might mean selling the house and living in an apartment where the kids share bedrooms and there's no backyard or private school.

My point is that they need to work together to make sex and their relationship with each other a priority because, if they don't, here are some other things that are expensive: wining and dining someone else outside the marriage, and after that, divorce is pretty expensive too. It's funny how a guy who can't find time to spend with his wife can often find time to come home late from work. Funny how he can't budget a night out with his wife but can find money to spend at a bar while he's avoiding his home. And I'm not just picking on guys. Terribly unhappy women can find money to ruin their marriages too.
17
LW1:HUH...Take charge of the kids (at least) one night a week. Get a babysitter & go out with the wife (at least) one night a week. Bring food home (at least) one night a week. None of these things needs to break the bank if money is an issue. Take the kids to the park - its free. Swap babysitting nights with friends that have kids too - it's free. A hand-holding walk around the lake is free. Cooked chicken and veggies from the supermarket deli won't cost much more than it would cost to make a meal at home. Do your own laundry. Clean the bathroom. I bet wifey finds a renewed interest in the horizontal bop.

LW2:Weird, awkward bi guy...you're fishing in the wrong pond. Since you're going to set off any vanilla girls' weirdness radar start looking for weird, awkward bi girls to hang with and eventually fuck. Weird and awkward is easier to adjust to over time, but not if you're pulling your dick out an hour after you've just met. (Not saying you are it just sounds like a weird, awkward thing to do - so don't.)

LW3 WASSUP...In my whole life I've accidentally almost stuck my dick where the sun don't shine very rarely (although I will admit that fucking like a rabid dog on crack has never been my go-to style so tab A generally ends up in slot A.) And unless WHAT has a WAY bigger asshole than DonnyKgirlfriend, accidental anal sex is unlikely – (hell, deliberate anal sex is unlikely.) Four times smacks of a concentrated effort. BUT...given the addendum, "People have suggested going slow, but I like it a little rough." I'd say you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you like it fast and rough, don't be surprised if Spurt Reynolds knocks on the back door every now and then.
18
@15: "Maybe they could ask themselves what they'd do if one of them got sick. That might mean selling the house and living in an apartment where the kids share bedrooms and there's no backyard or private school." Yes, my kids also shared a bedroom, and though we lived in a house and not an apartment, we had an almost non-existent backyard. And "private school?" Some of us are ideologically opposed to private school, even if we could afford one. Which we emphatically couldn't.

Do you really think all married couples with kids live in large houses with huge backyards and send their kids to private schools unless one of them gets sick?
19
Maybe I'm just in a cranky mood tonight, but I don't think that the wife in letter #1 is just kid-tired and if the husband cleans the bathroom or the family goes on a picnic in the park, she'll be jumping his bones. How many people do we know, and how many letters have we read where the sex dies off after so many years of marriage and kids and the husband is advised to pitch in with more childcare duties or housework with the implied promise of more sex with a wife who will fuck him out of some combination of gratitude for the help and the renewed energy that the relief of some household/kid drudgery beings about. Most of the time, that doesn't happen. Look at the letters from the disgruntled husbands/fathers who are regulars here.

I think seandr is pretty on the money @5 when he says, "There are hormonal shifts that happen due to breast feeding or simply being around babies. More problematic for the LW is that some women simply can't reconcile their identity as "mother" with that as "wife", and since they aren't going to abandon their kids, they abandon their partner instead. This tends to produce more lasting sexual droughts." And I don't have a solution for that; there may not be an easy or a satisfactory one.

Dan is a man who is married to a man, and sometimes his lack of understanding of female experience or even of the dynamics of a straight couple gets in the way. It seems like he reflects on his own relationship and on the years when his kid was young and assumes that the same forces, dynamics, and impetuses are in place, and I think that in this case and in the case of many opposite sex marriages, they're just not.

Additionally, in his response to the second letter, Dan falls back on his now-frequent explanation for women's reticence to have casual sex and the explanation he consistently offers is fear: Men aren't subjected to male sexual violence at the same rates that women are. Women have a lot more to fear than men do, UPITT, and a weird-and-awkward first impression is far likelier to turn off a woman into dudes than it is to turn off a man into dudes. The man you flirt with at a party might think, "Dude's weird and awkward but he's hot," and jump into bed with you. But the woman you flirt with at a party is likely to think, "Dude's weird and awkward and he's hot, but he's just too weird to risk it."
Well, I can only speak for myself, and undoubtedly lots of women will agree with Dan that the thing that keeps them from having sex with a man they don't know is fear of being raped or killed, but that has never been the impetus for any of my decisions to decline casual sex with a man I don't know. I'm a pretty promiscuous person, and I've had my share of spontaneous one-night-stands, and even I prefer to know a man and think that I will see him again and maybe on the regular before wanting to jump into bed with him, and it's not because I'm fearful for my safety. it's because I tend, like many women, to want some sort of familiarity or sense of connection to someone to want to have sex with him.
20
Sometimes a woman who learns that her marriage is on the rocks due to lack of sex manages to pull it together and find the energy to engage in sex once a week or so. And often women find that if they make an adult decision to have unwelcome sex (for the good of the marriage) that they actually end up enjoying it after a couple of minutes. And then that can have a rejuvenating effect on their sex life. Not always, but it happens.

But the guy shutting down sex, even when his wife is willing to have it? I don't see how that leads to restoring their sexual compatibility. Better he declare himself on the verge of leaving the marriage (but willing to have make-up sex in the meantime), than that he just shut down the chance of reconnecting through sexual intimacy.

21
On the question of casual sex, there's also the issue that (generally speaking) the mechanics of getting a guy to come are simpler than getting a woman to come so it's rational for women to see less benefit to a one-night-stand.

But UPITT isn't really looking for one-night-stands in any case. He wants a woman to settle down with. And I wonder whether he's rejecting the women like him ("weird and awkward") as being unsuitable for that role of wife and mother he has in his head.
22
LW1 - I know I'm being unkind, but first you bitch that the sex is too vanilla and then you make the decision to stop having sex and then you write a letter complaining that you're not having sex. You might try communicating with your wife about what's going on instead of making unilateral decisions for both of you that don't please either of you. She's probably exhausted with the kids. Maybe her hormones have changed and she's just not as turned on. Or maybe she's tired of you and doesn't find you attractive.

LW2 - Start listening to women when you go out with them. A lot of creepy people are creepy because they fail to pay attention to what someone else is saying. Or they get the gist but don't understand the other person's reasons for sharing (and underlying emotions), which can be just as important as the subject itself. If you're exclusively seeking bi women then look online so you can filter for them. Also, consider that you can have a stable relationship with a man. I'm not sure why you're implying that women and stability go hand and hand whereas men and stability don't.

LW3 - I disagree. I do believe that sometimes minimal (i.e., no more than the head of the dick) anal penetration can happen, particularly if you're having hard/fast sex and your whole area is lubricated. I've had this happen with a handful of partners. In several cases they noticed the moment it happened and said "oh shit, sorry" (or similar). In other cases I noticed and they immediately corrected. I think it's a little excessive to say that every man who slips in accidentally is a secret anal fiend. The ones who do on purpose are assholes, of course. But sex can be imperfect and messy, and sometimes things happen.

Context matters of course. In my cases we were having vigorous and sloppy sex such that either of us shifting our bodies could easily change our alignment and throw off his aim.
23
Sean @7: "LW2: guys so much darn easier

Good god, man, just be thankful you have that option."


I am. Oh, believe me, I am. I have often reflected on how miserable my life would be if I were unlucky enough to be a lesbian. I'm really fortunate that I like cock, so long as the cock's attached to someone sufficiently pretty. And yes, CMD, I'm 44 and not an awful lot has changed. :(

UPITT, except for the "start a family with" part (see L1 for a huge reason why), you sound like my perfect dude. Dan is dead right that UPITT should get himself onto OKCupid and look for bi women. He can state in his profile that he is bi and non-monogamous and weed out all the women who won't understand that.

Wait, what am I saying? Go away UPITT, leave some women for us women!
24
LW1 wants the kind of sex you have to put imagination and effort into, or he doesn't want any. He clearly isn't as tired as his wife. Fix that first - arrange things so that she's less tired and you're more tired - and see whether things improve.

But don't be so daft as to continue married without having sex, when you have a choice. The physical intimacy you get from sex is vital for helping you get through the rest of life without wanting to tear each other's heads off.

Alternatively, maybe having vanilla sex with his wife is an awful experience for LW1, rather than just boring. In which case the marriage has serious problems, and it needs to be opened or ended kindly and respectfully.
25
Vindicated again by Dan's admission that he cut out a salient detail from WHAT's letter last week. Accidental anal does happen. It may not be likely, but yes, because she believed and forgave him four times, that definitely suggested to me that there was something unusual about their anatomies and their lovemaking ("during passionate sex" was indeed a pertinent clue), rather than this guy is a psychopathic rapist who manages to (a) conjure totally convincing apologies and (b) has never engaged in similar red-flag asshole behaviour in any other context in the year they've been together.

"People have suggested going slow, but I like it a little rough." Well, WHAT, perhaps occasional accidental anal is the price of admission for "rough," "passionate" sex with this particular short-dicked man. I go back to, if it's inevitable, try to learn to embrace and enjoy it. There are anal tutorials out there; have him go slowly at first and get you relaxed during foreplay perhaps, and then the later accidental ramming won't be quite so traumatic.
26
Venn @12: "Viagra seems uncalled for. He's only 48. I shan't mimic certain other members of the assembled company and call him young, but presuming the need for Viagra is the sort of thing that's so far from left field that I'm inclined to suspect sloppy editing of the letter again."

Yeah, that jumped out at me too. The issue is not HUH's lack of erection; he never intimated that he has trouble getting an erection. Some 48-year-olds have no trouble whatsoever in that department, so why go directly to the (prescription) drugs route? Especially if Mrs HUH may find herself just in the mood to cuddle. A raging, chemically induced erection will be a hindrance if that's the situation.
27
Is that all there is. Dancing, I think that's the way to go.
This woman, LW1's wife, is married to this charmer for fourteen years. Bears him, not one, but three children and he thinks she was just stringing him along. Yeah right bud, you caught that deceitful wife of yours out.
You may have it Venn. Not a lot of love lost in this man's heart. You may like to know his wife's age, I'd like to know the children's ages. Is there still a baby in nappies around the house. Is she still breastfeeding, and on top of All this, working? So many minor details left out of the story.
I do commend you Dan, you didn't suggest sexual infidelity. And yes, maybe these selfish men could read a few letters on SL and see that perhaps for a period of time, the old wild sex is out the window.
My turn to cook dinner here. To be con't.
28
Big Hug Mug @22. I sure would stop finding a man attractive, if he thought
I'd lied about my sexuality.
Kill that attitude LW1. It is rude and disrespectful to your wife and the work she has been doing over the last decade, incubating and nurturing your children.
The children are young. Yes, I see Sean's point as well, the woman can direct her total attention to the children, and expect her man to fit in. Depending on the ages of the children, I'm suggesting this is a fair expectation.
To a point.
The pressure to satisfy your old sex story.. foursomes etc.. Doesn't help. Grow up. Look around. You and she have a big job to do. I'm not saying continuing with that lifestyle isn't possible to return to, just not yet.
Kill the attitude and the pressure.
Then approach your wife with love in your heart, after a long day for both of you, and cuddle her. This cuddle may lead to other physical intimacy behaviour, or not. No pressure.
A man needs to claim his wife, with love not self serving anger.
Yes it's effort and self control. And courage. You and she have made a family. Your cock being satisfied in the ways you want is only part of the story. Your heart has its needs too. So look at those kids of yours and see where your heart is.
As Dan says, tell each other this pressure will ease. The kids will grow.
Have sex with your wife with love in your heart. Gently remind her at intervals you'd like to find a way to return to satisfying your kinks. She says she's too tired at the moment. Trust that won't always be the case.
29
Re: WHASSUP and accidental anal (AA): here are all the factors which led to our sole incident of AA back when my teenaged girlfriend (MTG) and my teenaged self (MTS) were busy inventing sex.

1. MTS lying supine on the floor.
2. MTG straddling me, facing away, in a "reverse cowgirl".
3. MTS sporting a penis of merely average breadth and length, but of heroic rigidity - if porn is any indication.
4. MTG gyrating with aplomb.

It was the early 80's and home video cameras were rare. There's no footage available to corroborate my story. Please take my word for it. MTG impaled herself on me. In fact, I didn't even know it had happened until she screamed, marking the cessation of all sexual activities for about a week. As I recall, she didn't blame MTS.
Months later we did embark on the invention of anal sex - at her behest, v-e-r-y slowly and using plenty of lube, which she swiped from her mother's nightstand. Never again was there any AA.

30
I have to say, dicks are not too easy to aim, especially when you can not really see where you are going, and have been ecstatically pumping away for a while at a lubed up opening. The anus is about an inch or less away from the vagina. If you can't ever see this happening by accident, you either have no imagination or you are too into your "all men are secret rapists" rage.

It sounded to me in the last letter about this that it was a temporary slip where maybe there was initial penetration by the tip not a "I went all the way in and just kept going" kind of thing.

Sometimes you pull out a bit too far and you miss the target. Usually you just slam against the taint (which hurts too) or you go too high and slip up the lips, which is funny because it looks like a hot dog.
31
A point I wanted to make re: In The Neighbourhood, but that's also pertinent to HUH's question. In The Neighbourhood's protagonist had tried to perk up a flagging sex life by suggesting "porn and toys." If you are not horny, "porn and toys" are terrible suggestions. When you don't want sex at all, you want embellished sex even less. Ideally you prefer to just go to sleep, but as a second preference, you want maintenance sex that's over quickly so you can just go to sleep.

In other words, HUH is not going to revive his overworked wife's libido by demanding kink. And yeah, he's being childish by saying "it's either my way or no sex at all." Dan's been reading the comments; his advice is spot on, except for the Viagra thing.
32
@LW#2 Or maybe COLLEGE AGE WOMEN aren't looking to settle down and have a family (!!) just cause you decided they're the boring stable ones you need to settle down with after your exciting homopromiscuous adventures.
Scared you might bore the shit out of them while you missionary fuck to satisfy your bio clock maybe?
33
@LavaGirl: I mean, you either must be just so gorgeous or not.

It depends on how much you've had to drink.
34
LW2 - I think there are at least two things going on here - one, not being comfortable talking with women and two, not being fully comfortable with being bi.

l'm a bi woman and I also found it easier to date men when I was younger. So you're not alone. And I did (sort of) figure it out, with help from friends and with patience and practice, so there's hope for you too. (I used to complain that with women you have to talk about your feelings ALL the time and then I married a man who's way more in touch with his feelings than any of my ex girlfriends).

I highly recommend finding groups (with some women in them - not guys only) where you feel comfortable being yourself - nerdy, awkward bi guy you. This is where you practice talking with women (in a non-creepy way). You're not trying to fuck or date them yet, just have pleasant conversation and human connections - skills building if you will.

And I think you need more bi/pan/fluid people in your life. Try the campus queer student group (if you haven't already) - you may find and connect with some bi people, bi women even. Pittsburgh is big enough that you can probably find a bi meetup group or two.

Captain Awkward has some excellent advice for awkward young men trying to date women, so you might look in her archives. One of her suggestions is to watch movies / read books / consume whatever media you regularly consume created by women.

The third thing is timing. You feel you might be ready to settle down after years of sleeping around, but you're in college, which is prime sleeping around time for a lot of people of all genders. So maybe just focus on becoming more comfortable with women now so future you has a better shot when your peers are finally ready to settle down.
35
I love anal. Seriously, it's my favorite. Every boyfriend I've had since I was 17 has gotten to have butt sex any time he liked. And I've still had a couple of instances where you are going pretty hard, cock slips out, and end up half way in your ass. And yes, it's always very startling and, having lived through it, I believe totally accidental.
37
Sean @33: I imagine it also depends on whether you are dressed *exactly* like Gary Oldman in Dracula. :)
38
Ms Cute - More or less in line with the conclusion to #19, what did you make of Mr Savage's raising the pot on the poly line in the podcast, advising a male caller whose wife was responsible for the lion's share of the infidelity in their marriage that agreeing to casual outside encounters on her side is basically worthless, and that men willing to agree to casual extramarital sex really have to agree to their wives' having boyfriends?

Something that's popped up lately a few times is the argument that Equality Is Sexist. Has that crossed your radar at all?
39
@Mr. Ven, I haven't listened to this week's podcast yet, but I'll make sure to look out for that call/response.
I also haven't heard the argument that equality is sexist, but it seems to be a contradiction in terms, or a sexist argument (if made by a member of an MRA group), much as the argument, made by a white, racist misogynist this past week that a group of black female cadets were maki… in their "Old Corps" photograph.
40
@BiDanFan: dressed *exactly* like Gary Oldman in Dracula

How I wish I had that outfit! I wouldn't wear it to a rave (too hot), but it would be fun showing up at cocktail party dressed like that.

I was actually dressed like a poor man's Tom of Finland, sort of like this guy, only less muscle, less mustache, and well, less everything, really. I have the hat nailed, though! And I think I accessorized nicely with leather bicep bands and a spiked leather collar. I know, not your thing, sorry.

And before @venn accuses me of cultural appropriation, I'll remind him that this look was originally appropriated from straight biker dudes.
41
Ms. Cute @19, My reasons for thinking the wife is tired are based entirely on personal experiences. Sure, there are people out there who think,"Oh, married people don't do THAT!" Or who think that what is okay for a wife isn't appropriate for a mother. But what this guy is telling us is that his wife is willing to have sex with him, hasn't outright said that it is only maintenance sex, and doesn't really give us any indication that his wife is no longer sexually attracted to him, etc. He unilaterally decided they wouldn't have any sex because he gets "a feeling" that is obligatory and it isn't as exciting as what they had before 3 kids. Before moving on to more drastic measures, it seems worth a shot to see if being less tired gives her more energy for creative sex; or some extra nonsexual attention gets her out of constant mom mode and gives her space to remember that she is a sexual being and not just a mother. It is so easy for being just a mother to become the default setting...
42
Mr. Gorath@ 30, Now that some people have chimed in with their experiences of how this has happened to them, either on the giving or receiving end, I can see how it is possible. However, my not realizing it previously is not due to a lack of imagination, nor do I harbor any fantasies about all men being rapists. It was simply due to my knowledge of physiology and the fact that everyone I know, and most people even on this board, have admitted that anal usually takes some time and effort. I did make an allowance for if it was something a couple does regularly, but that is not the case for this lw. Also, in my experience, when there is slippage, even if it is low enough to hit the anus, it is more like what happens when you hit the taint instead of penetration.
43
@25: Yup. It's not as if it was 4 in 4, over a long enough period and depending on angles and context (her preferring the hammering away) it can certainly happen, especially with more inexperienced partners. So long as it's "whoops" and the person doesn't try to continue, he just needs better training. 4 times in a year isn't great, but 4 times out of (arbitrarily) a hundred? A honest talk, concern on his end and direction on hers could help to eliminate this.
44
@42: Angles and level of lubrication alter how the physiology responds, especially when one partner or both are distracted. Thankfully, concern and care are enough to avoid it for the most part.
45
I will comply with Dan's policy of "no more sexless marriages" letters. So, on to LW-2 .
He SHOULD feel awkward interacting with women. That is part of what youth is for:.. exploring. While quite inscrutable, the female can, eventually be learned through study. Many men make the mistake of thinking that they must say and do a lot to try to impress the female object of their desire.
I would advise the opposite approach and tell the young man to shut the hell up, ask LOTS of questions, and actually listen. One issue he will have is lets say if he has just asked a woman to dance. If they were cuddling on the dance floor and he gets aroused all bets are off, because, as a wise person once said:.."Men have two heads, but only enough blood to operate one of them at a time".
He has somehow correctly identified the fact that a woman in most situations where she is dealing with complete strangers is going to be very concerned about her security. In my experience most men do NOT spend much time worrying about their security or safety around a woman. This would make for a very different vibe when out meeting dateable men I would guess.
RE: LW-3 We covered that pretty well last week, IMHO.
46
Sean @40: You went out dressed as a leather daddy and you wonder why you attracted men but not women??

Undead @44: Don't forget size. I had a partner who was very poorly endowed. I suggested anal, because I wanted to actually feel something. He agreed, I turned round, and he rammed it straight in with no preliminaries. That couldn't have happened with someone larger. (And even with a very small penis, my reaction was "Whoa there, slow down!!")
47
I have had PIV accidentally and abruptly begin to turn into PIA several times with several partners in the past: I was so wet that lube wasn't an issue; but it was always more of a "just the tip" situation, because as soon as we realized what was going on, we stopped at either my request or by mutual unspoken agreement. I like anal sex quite a lot, but I generally want to be mentally and physically prepared for it. I think it might be a combination of the angle of my genitals and the fact that in all cases, we were moving pretty quickly, a bit roughly, and relying more on instinct than thoughtfulness.

The incident described in last week's letter seemed unremarkable, unmistakenly accidental, and appropriately reacted-to, to me. Four times in a year, if the couple is boning several times a week or more, in a rather rough, frenzied style is quite plausible, if the right factors coincide. The fact that the boyfriend stops as soon as the lw expresses dismay (and may have apologized, but I can't remember whether that's the case or not) suggests he's not trying to use the "oops, it slipped" excuse to have the anal sex he really wants or to get off on doing something without consent.

In the heat of the moment, when that red sex-fog has descended, I often find myself first going along with, and then turned on by, something I would never do if we had had a discussion and had calmly decided on it beforehand. I once had unprotected ATM and only later realized that oh, gee, I had done that. I probably wouldn't have done that had I been thinking clearly. Add to the sex-fog powers, the effects of alcohol or weed, either or both of which may be sometimes added to the mix to lesser or greater extents, and there will be quite a potential to be looser with heretofore-established boundaries.
While I don't intend a repeat of some of these activities (ATM comes to mind), I'm kind of glad, in retrospect, to have them in the old memory banks from time to time, as they represent some very happily-remembered encounters.
48
BiDanFan@46: "Sean @40: You went out dressed as a leather daddy and you wonder why you attracted men but not women??"
Ha! Bravo!
49
LW1 is acting like a petulant child.

He doesn't get what he wants because life, and HIS CHILDREN, are in the way. He responds by deliberately withholding intimacy from his wife of 14 years. Some, myself among them, consider that to be a form of abuse. At the least, it's a hellacious dick move.

Nice job, dude. On behalf of all of us husbands and fathers who cook, do housework and take an active role in the lives of our children, thanks for making the rest of us look bad.
50
We are all so lucky to have LW3 WASSUP and her psychic friends around to tell us that accidental PIA is impossible and all men who claim it are liars. I've done it at least twice, at least once with someone with whom anal was always an option, and - you know - I'm pretty sure I'd know if I'd done it on purpose.

As a connoisseur of ladies' pelvic regions, I can tell you they're not all exactly the same. Maybe it wouldn't be possible with WASSUP and her rectum of steel, but some women are less clenched than others, some lubricate more than others, some relax their anuses during sex, and some couples fuck in different positions with different levels of reckless abandon.

So, WASSUP, maybe it's never happened to you by accident, but for some couples, it's totally possible. How do I know? Well, as the accidental penetrator, I don't have to rely on mind-reading to know what my intent was.

As for the previous LW's dude who did it four times, that's very suspicious. He's probably doing it on purpose or deliberately doing things in such a way as to make the "accident" likely. He sounds like a shitheel. If you do something four times and it hurts your partner enough to make her cry, you should probably be pretty careful not to do it again.
51
@BiDanFan: You went out dressed as a leather daddy and you wonder why you attracted men but not women??

It didn't help that the party was thrown by a burning man camp that's at least 50% gay.

But for the record, it's not that I didn't attract any women. It's just that none of them put their arm around me, told me I'm "hot as fuck", offered me sex, and assured me they wouldn't tell anyone. As you can see, it's a callous and indifferent world I live in as a straight guy.

Now, if only some kind-hearted woman would pull my face into her breasts, pat me on the head, and say "poor, poor seandr", I'm sure I could be consoled.
52
Sean: As a chronically pussy-deprived bi woman, you're getting zero sympathy from me.
53
#51 - Was that a Harvey reference? You didn't mention cold beer, so maybe not.
Oh yeah, and no sympathy here, either.
54
And enough about LeatherSean, it’s our first race of the season Saturday!
Last year, we beat the rest of the field like they stole something, gotta repeat this year. Should have some sporty GoPro footage for y’all. It’s a short course, so we just have to go all-out for about 50 seconds...
56
Good luck CatB.
Oh Sean, you are naughty.
It's a pity there aren't breast pit stops, a nicely breasted woman allowing any of us nurture deprived, to rest our weary head there, just for a moment's respite.
57
@51: Poor, poor seandr.

Therein lies the difference, generally speaking, between men and women.

You poor dear. (smushes you to my bosom).

@38: Mr. Ven, I thought that Dan's points were valid and that this should be a test-case marriage, and yet I think the caller was having none of it and Dan wasn't really listening. But I applaud his (Dan's) efforts in this case.
58
All respect to sean intended, but I feel as if "couldn't get fucked at Burning Man" has been used as a zinger by someone somewhere at some time.
59
#58 - It’s one or 2 places behind ‘couldn’t score at a women’s prison with a handful of pardons.'
60
Ms Cute - Mr Savage can listen, but it's harder to do so when he has an opportunity to shill.

*****

Dr Sean - Your grandfather should have warned you that every man you attract is two women you won't. The reverse is why I was able to attract as many men as I wanted (not that large a number). I was always careful not to attract women, a task at which I succeeded with what I'm sure the assembled company will almost all agree was an admirably high ratio.
61
Nicely done, Mr. Ven!
62
Hope you have a good race, Cat Bro.
63
Nocute nailed it:

" how many letters have we read where the sex dies off after so many years of marriage and kids and the husband is advised to pitch in with more childcare duties or housework with the implied promise of more sex with a wife who will fuck him out of some combination of gratitude for the help and the renewed energy that the relief of some household/kid drudgery beings about. Most of the time, that doesn't happen."

It doesn't happen, because if Husband is doing housework and chores specifically for the purpose of making his wife less tired so he can have sex, then what happens is he becomes one more chore on her list of things to do that day.

Not "Hey, I have free time! We can fuck!" but, "damn it, now this." Dealing with small kids is exhausting. Dealing with children who want to touch adults (normal!) and their constant needs, arguing, bickering, and mess is exhausting physically and mentally. If the spouse turns into one more chore on the primary caretaker's list, and the spouse is able-bodied and able to take care of themself, guess which thing is getting bumped to the end of the list?

Husband might want to take a look at the distribution of domestic labour and see if there is anything he can pick up. Not so he earns enough husband points to redeem them for pussy, but because he's trying to be a decent supporting partner.

64
To be honest, between the "infrequent and dull and feels like an obligation" and "it was my decision," LW1 sounds like he took an already not ideal situation and threw any possibility of improvement out the window. Either he gets his time-consuming kinky sex the way he wants it (and never mind that it's time she could be sleeping), or he doesn't want to have sex at all?

Yep. He made himself one more chore on her list, along with dealing with the laundry and disciplining the children. This despite her attempting to be GGG despite having the burden of family care.
65
LW1 fucked up his life by having kids. The only solution is to cook and eat them, so he will be happily child-free again and can go back to his foursomes.
66
Novel idea Chase.
Yes Slinky, it did feel like that often to me in my marriage. Have sex with husband became another to do item.
I do think I had a lot of negative feelings for him that never really got cleared and resolved.
The negative thoughts that a couple start to carry for each other must have a constricting effect on any clear way for spontaneous, erotic sex to occur.
If each spouse has generous, positive and thankful thoughts about the other, then good sex has some room to take place. To get to that point, resentments need to be aired and talked thru.
Truth of family life with small people is neither parent gets what they would want if they were childless. That freedom really is gone, and those of us who choose to be parents have to face that.
Some of it does start to come back as they grow, it's never the same as being single and child free.
67
I'm being facetious, but it sounds to me like LW1 wasn't really committed to having kids but had them anyway, which was a shitty thing to do to his kids and a shitty thing to do to his wife. I don't think doing a little extra housework or hiring a babysitter every now and then is going to do the trick, he needs a serious attitude adjustment and I don't know that he's up for it. The answer to his questions is "yes", and the answer to his guess is "that sounds pretty paranoid, bro". Resenting his wife for tricking him into this and only providing basic sex out of obligation is going to destroy his marriage fast. Raising kids is a team effort, not a scam to destroy his sex life.
68
Erica, you've managed to combine kink and child rearing. Maybe this guy, LW1, needs some tips re how to reintroduce it with kids, what is age appropriate etc.
Kids I found are not that fussed re their parents sex lives. I still can't even mention the word to my kids. They do not want to know.
They can be very flexible, young kids, if they feel nourished. And it's really none of their business.
Yep. IF a man, one of these types of men that LW1 is an example of, just let go of his me me me mind set for a period of time, and came home with only good thoughts in his mind for his wife and children.. accepted that yes it's a rough road this family trip.. and it is, in modern capitalism, unless you rich and pay for others to help.. yet it's the road chosen. Make that mental effort for a couple of weeks, and be cuddly with his wife; I bet he would find she was different and he would feel different. Cause he would have moved a little further along the path of thinking/ feeling as a part, as the male head, of a family; and less as a deprived man. It's a roller coaster , rearing kids. Never static till they get into their 20s.
Enjoy the ride.
69
Anyone can change their attitudes, Chase.
This guy has written to Dan before he rushed off and played. And Dan told him straight and kindly how to adjust his attitude. And us here have given him a good boot.
Can't make people grow up, it hurts to be an adult. They have to decide for themselves, so we present an argument to assist with changing attitudes. This no sex complaint from men keeps on keeping on.. it's an issue .
I can understand a man's frustration and a woman's exhaustion. If there is good will between a couple, they will want to nourish each other. It doesn't have to be sex, it can encompass so much else besides. Sharing a bath. Massaging each other. Reading a chapter of a book to each other.
70
Chase @65: Ha! Well, I was thinking ship them off to boarding school, but your suggestion would work too ;)
71
Erica, sorry if I miss represented you above. You have opened your relationship, which is not necessarily what this man is looking to do.
Boarding school, Fan? That can cost big bucks and they do have to be school age.
72
Lava @71: The little winkyface icon means I am not serious.
73
Oh man, I could have written LW2 letter in (and I may have years ago) when I was that age.

The dynamic is completely different. I'm going to take some liberties and assume that with men, you're probably not the one who is initiating the encounters. You're putting yourself out there and parading around drawing the attention of the men. That attention feels awesome. I get it.

Your awkwardness with women probably stems from your lack of comfort in being the pursuer and feeling you need to not be you around them when you're interested in them. I still have that problem to a degree and I'm 27. You probably have a lot of female friends too, and you're comfortable, awesome you around them.

DON'T pursue women with the same sort of dynamic you experience with men. Gay/bi man-on-man interactions are completely different. With women it's much more subtle. Their signals are more subtle too! You are probably routinely missing signs from women who are interested, and missing signs that women aren't interested as well. Be less self conscious and focused on screwing it up and more focused on their actions and their words.

Relax and have fun. There's no pressure and you are enviably young. You're probably not gay (I can smell that fear from here) and you can enjoy some man-on-man goodness without having to trade in your "gets to date and sleep with women" card.

The stigma about bi/heteroflexible relationship-straight/kink-bi or however you want to label yourself is real and still relatively pervasive. Don't let that get you down. The people who matter don't care and the people who care don't matter.

Oh, and be safe! Condoms, condoms, condoms, and if you're regularly sleeping with guys, consider PrEP.
74
If the kiddywinkles were down for Lawnhurst from birth, then probably C1 would just have an exhausted nanny (really a glorified au pair; someone of true Nanny stock would be extremely difficult to exhaust).

Mr Chase's modesty strikes me as appropriate for this sort of Mr Want It All. His counterpart might be the mother who thinks that her husband should just magically earn more money without having to work longer or harder, and decides that his spending more time at the office is a deliberate slight. Or, from the other side, there was an article from someone recently who, envious of all the new mothers, wanted "me-ternity" leave (LMB).
75
Well if everyone else is going to break Dan's rule so will I.
LW-1 has suspected that running a household and raising his 3 kids has ruined his intimate life. That may be or maybe not. After raising only 2 kids (and FYI: Never raise a teenage daughter and expect to be happy) my wife was exhausted.
Fast forward to their college days
Imagine my surprise to find out after they left permanently that Miss N would be depressed and crying that "they were gone." You cannot win. you merely can endure. .
76
Mr Escapes - Thank you for the bi perspective, but I can assure you my negotiations were as subtle as anyone's, and probably a good deal more so than most.

I'd like to go back in time a couple of years and somehow find LW2 a circle of bi men who also envision(ed) women as better choices in the long-term partner department (perhaps just for easy reproduction; there's no need for anything here to be nefarious). I think it would have done him good to have been around others with compatible goals.

I'm not sure about pushing LW into traditional gendre roles , but I shall be consistent and not provide strategies for becoming pursued by women.

Isn't PrEP rather expensive, especially for a college student?
77
Sigh, sexless marriages. Well, my sex drive definitely took a nose drive for a while - like six months or so - after no. 2 was born. Frankly, any attempt my husband made to put a hand on me made me want to stick a fork in his eye. And doing more laundry so I wasn't so damned tired probably wouldn't have helped all that much. I had this thing (baby 2) attached to my body, my boob, all the time . She was very clingy. And then this toddler. SHE was also on me, touching my food, pulling my hair, all the time although markedly less clingy than baby 2. I felt like I lost my last possession, my physical body, to other people. And I am a person who is very... Well... protective of bodily integrity (not touchy, no huggy). I keep my peace often. A final citadel, if you will, where I can be free. So it was really hard. And I didn't want my husband touching me too. UG.

But it all came back, although not like it was. And recently, i.e, last six months, shifted into overdrive. So I would tell husband - especially if wife is making efforts - that this too shall pass, if he remains there for her, appreciative of her efforts, lowers his expectations and goes.

Accidental anal? I know it can happen. My hub has poked me accidentally in the butt a few times, but never IN in. But we aren't all designed the same way, you know.
79
See, here's the thing: sometimes, marital sex lives behave the way DarkHorse @77 describes hers and how EricaP has described hers. And sometimes, they don't ever shift back into a happy mode.

I would say in general, it's true that the presence of young children is antithetical to wanting to have sex for many women. It's not just exhaustion as in not getting enough sleep and having too much to do; young children place such high demands on a parent--usually the mother when there are opposite-sex parents, but not always--physically, and the very last thing a woman often wants is one more damn person wanting one more damn thing from her body or making one more demand or fucking touching her. Especially if she is or was recently breastfeeding. YMMV
Not to mention that breasts are now associated (hopefully temporarily) as being "for the baby," or may start leaking milk or the nipples may be (again, hopefully temporarily) too tender for the kind of stimulation that both people used to enjoy or be used to. And vaginas seem somehow to have shifted sometimes. And you worry about being walked-in on, or the kid starts to cry, just when you get started . . .

There's the psychological shift that seandr mentioned, in which you stop feeling like a woman--especially like a sexy, pretty, desirable woman, and more like a mom--and MILFs aside, mom's aren't especially sexy in our culture. Revered, yes; lusted after, no. It's hard to feel sexy when you are so rushed and the only people you are going to encounter are moms on the playground or at the school or the people at the grocery store so you haven't put anything but yoga pants and a t-shirt on in weeks.

But then the kids get older and you can start to reinvest some energy into yourself and your sense of yourself as someone and something other than ------'s mom comes back, and you may find your libido return. And now the big question comes: does it come back in the form of renewed desire for your partner or does it return, but without being focused on him?

I don't know if it's possible to predict when it will come back and be focused on your partner and when it won't be. I can guess that one factor is how turned on by your partner you were or how satisfying your sex life was before you became parents, but sometimes that's not a reliable indicator. I can suggest that you have "go-though-the-motions" sex regularly (like once-twice a week) when you're not feeling sexy in those early years, just to keep a bond there and use those sessions as place-holders until real desire comes back and the sex gets better. But again, I know couple who did that and it never moved beyond duty-sex or maintenance-sex (whichever you want to call it), and I know couples who didn't have that regular "just-keep-the-bond" sex when the kids were young because that's not the way the wife rolls, and the sex eventually came back strongly later anyway.

The point is there's no way to know or predict for any specific couple whether the sexual drop off that is precipitated by parenthood (or at least motherhood) will pick back up.
80
Mother of 2 young children here.

LW1: My husband and I have a deal. I take care of his needs, if he takes care of me. That means no sex/blowjobs unless he helps me with the chores, and makes dinner at least once a week. We are both so much happier now. I am so thrilled when I come home to dinner in the works and a clean bathroom, I am happy to reward him in the bed.

LW2: ignore Dan's comments. Women aren't paranoid that a weird/awkward guy might be a rapist. It's just that for women, dick is abundant and low value. So we can be choosy. Very, very choosy. See: https://medium.com/matter/the-dickonomic…
81
@tulipa: It's just that for women, dick is abundant and low value.

Dick is equally abundant for gay men, and yet gay men don't have the same difficulties getting laid. Your statement can thus be simplified as:

"For women, dick is of low value."
82
@80: tulipa, I'm glad you two have worked out such a happy solution. It sounds like a great household.

I also wanted to say that you are dead-on perfectly accurate in your second paragraph ("Women aren't paranoid that a weird/awkward guy might be a rapist. It's just that for women, dick is abundant and low value. So we can be choosy. Very, very choosy."). It's what I've been feeling, but have been unable to articulate, even to myself. Thank you.
83
@81: Okay, granted, I'm high right now, but I don't understand your point? Why would the fact that dick is abundant for both women and gay men mean that the statement needs to be amended to delete that word for women?
One of the reasons dick may be of low value to some women might be because of its very abundance, but that may not be the correct or only reason to other women.
84
LavaGirl, you didn't misrepresent me -- our marriage survives because of pretty much every tool in the toolbox, and then some.

In our early years, pre-kids, lots of kinky sex cemented our connection. Then when I was pregnant, Mr. P. found a way to spin my hugeness as sexy Earth Mother, so we could have fun sex throughout. He then tolerated a drastic reduction in physical contact (the day-to-day hugging, stroking, petting we were used to) when I was nursing and had a toddler hanging on me all day. Conversely, I made a point of never turning down his sexual overtures, so even when I was touched-out we had sex about once a week.

The kink declined drastically, and the sex itself was routine and soothing rather than exciting. I didn't notice much myself, but after ten years, he let me know things were going to change. Our D/s relationship made it easier for me to hear him out without thinking about leaving him.

His preference was to open the marriage, and he also encouraged me to reboot my own sexuality, attending kinky events, reading sexy stories, and spending way more time than was sensible discussing these issues here on Slog. Our kink life together has been a big part of our renewed sexuality now that our children are older and more self-sufficient. So opening the marriage wasn't a way to turn away from each other; it helps us recharge ourselves and reconnect.
85
Here's the link to the really good, illuminating essay that tulipa mentioned. @80. When I tried to cut and paste her link it didn't work:
https://medium.com/matter/the-dickonomic…
86
https://medium.com/matter/the-dickonomic….

This should be required reading for all teen boys, with a mandatory refresh every 5 years for the first 10 years and then as needed. Seriously, if I had sons, I would make them read this.
87
@84 EricaP "Opening the marriage wasn't a way to turn away from each other; it helps us recharge ourselves and reconnect."

Same exact story here. Odd, isn't it, how laying everything on the table in that way strengthens your bond rather than eroding it?
88
@EricaP: It's so nice to hear your story @84. From the perspective of someone who's been following it here as most of it seemed to be unfolding, it seems to have gone through an exciting, but more turbulent and eventful phase, but even though some of the more intense eventfulness seems to have calmed down, it sounds as though you are all (you, your husband, and various and respective boyfriends and girlfriends) having a lot of fun. It's also clear that you and your husband share a lot of love.
89
@87: I'd say you and EricaP got lucky, idreamofhorses. Some of us do lay everything on the table in an attempt to not only strengthen a bond, but to simply keep it from eroding, but our partners are not always as willing to shift gears as you two have been. Just being willing to be open and honest with your partner doesn't guarantee that your partner will be receptive to what you are being honest about.
90
@nocute: If we accept @tulipa's explanation, I'm saying that the difference in the difficulty of getting laid as a straight vs gay guy isn't a matter of supply, because dick is equally abundant in both markets (relative to overall market size). Rather, it's a matter of demand, with women placing a relatively lower value on dick than gay men.
91
nocute @88 "more intense eventfulness" -- lol, yes. A difficult adjustment. And maybe more to come, who knows. As you said @79, there's no way to predict the future. For now, I do feel very lucky.
92
@78/79 I had forgotten those horrible months, after having two kids 18 months apart, of feeling like there wasn't even enough space for me in my body, let alone wanting anyone else to touch me, and whatever patience I did have went to a nursing infant and an active toddler.
93
#80, 85-6 - Well, I read the essay, and I don't know.
This makes it sound like the author, and all women, have their pick of all men online. While I'd agree that (just from reading about it) any woman (almost) who puts herself out there as ready for sex will get a barrage of responses, getting what the mass of women perceive as 'the good ones' is hardly a slam-dunk. Dick may be common, a well-wielded dick, attached to a good guy, I hear is somewhat rare.
And who you can pull at 29 ain't always who you can pull at 39.
At the risk of stirring up more drama -
Guys in general are hornier than women, with said horniness peaking in late teens. This frantic-ness starts to dissipate around the late 20's.
For the most part, in this culture, women are pursued, not the pursuers. A woman who is not...classically beautiful, can still (often) get sex by being sluttier or a little more north of vanilla than the average. The 'fat girl who gives lots of blowjobs' is a thing, in college and high school, I was pals with one during my undergrad (did not indulge, was a bit of a square.) There is no equivalent for less-than-attractive guys (“I'll eat your pussy 'till your nose bleeds, if you will get me off afterwards.”)
In related news, overweight girls with big tits will often get action from guys not very attracted to the rest of them. The 'I'm not that into her, but look at those jugs!” is a thing, not that i'd know (looks up at ceiling while whistling tunelessly.)
Men tend to calm down in general around 30; I remember reading, in my 20's, this Esquire magazine men's-round-table on dating, may have cut it out and still have it around somewhere, where the most alpha of the guys said that he was a lot less likely to have rando sex, just because of the attendant hassle, and the other guys all seemed to be in agreement. I have found this to be the case, unless you're leaving town soon or something.

Men's horniness is not a bottomless well, nor is the attraction that you may have wielded in your 20's. The author of that article is in the position of someone with good credit in the late 90's/ early Oughts, before the crash...remember how you used to get all those offers for zero-interest cards, and scornfully toss them into the trash with a laugh? Well, a couple years later, you may have been asking Discover to please trust you enough for a $200 credit limit.
As I noted the other week, be cool to people on your way up, 'cause you might well meet them on your way down.
94
Cat Bro, I agree: market value in the straight world has an expiration and initiation date and the expiration for the vast majority of women ends about a decade before the onset of the inception of it for the vast majority of men.

That ten-year period os one of more-or-less stasis and equality.

And I also agree with your philosophy of " be cool to people on your way up, 'cause you might well meet them on your way down."

But as the mother of two young women and as someone who knows a lot of young women and is quite fond of them, I am dismayed to see the phenomenon described playing out this way. I don't think it pertains to olds like us, and I don't think it was like this, not this exaggerated, when we were young ourselves. It is almost hard to believe it, but young women who are even minimally attractive by conventional standards really are approached (and then reproached) in just this way by scores of young men, as long as they are in any kind of potential dating environment or context. And one reason that men might have for thinking it will be successful is covered in this essay by the same woman: https://medium.com/matter/against-chill-…
95
@seandr: I'd cautiously agree, but I think the issue is one of definition. (I get so tired of having to issue all the usual disclaimers, but consider them issued. I'm speaking in oversimplification and generalization here):
Women's desire for sex doesn't appear to be as strong as men's and it doesn't drive them to the extent that men's does men. The whole "big head/little head" dynamic--well, yes, women understand in our experience and to our extent what it means to be driven by lust, but it just seems that what we get is such a difference in degree that it might as well be considered a difference in kind. What we respectively mean when we each say "driven by lust" is I think, very different. The way women are controlled by their sexual urges is in a such a diluted way compared against men. I may think with my clit a little bit, but I don't ever sacrifice the thinking I do with my brain in the same way. In other words, and to conform to another stereotype, as a woman, I can multi-task.
So if you're not at the mercy of sexual drive and urgency, you are able to see a bit more clearly and objectively and then, yes, dicks aren't as valuable to women as they are to gay men or vaginas are to straight men. Which means that you are more able to see when men are behaving like assholes and you are less willing to up with that behavior unless you are desirous of being seen as "cool" or "chill" (see the essay I linked to @94) in order to get the relationship you really want or so as not to be branded with the stigma of being "uncool" or "without chill." (But that's a related, yet different topic.)

It's the fact that men can be dicks that helps to make actual dicks less valuable.
96
#94 - I can't agree re the difference in age-related attractiveness; anyone who thinks the average 40-year old man is pulling like the average 30-year old woman, is not intimate with the lives of many 40-year old men. The middle-aged balding accountant who hits on his cocktail waitress because he's thinks he's still got it, if he ever had it, is not just unsuccessful but a cultural punchline.
George Clooney gets interest from younger women. So do guys who groom, stay in shape, and have good social skills after 40. So does Paul Allen. Most guys over 40 in America are not any of these.
I've said it before, but people like what they like, bodywise and everything else. If you have what someone likes, unless they want kids or something, it doesn't matter alot whether they're 35, 45, or 60. I recently met a woman that could pass for 28, turns out she's 50 (and married, grumble grumble) with 5 kids. Her age (would have, grumble grumble) meant a whole lot less to me than her obvious commitment to health and fitness, and I'm quite sure she gets plenty of male attraction from the mid-20's on up.
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@89 Iwasnocutename Oh, certainly. I vividly recall the look on her face as she told me what had been on her mind. Because what if I said no? What if I told her she was a bad wife for even thinking it?
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#95 – No doubt, men can be dicks, as can we all.
Men are controlled by their urges much more, at least 'till around 25; they're almost like drug addicts at times. This is where the the oft-used comedian's riff of “...and we were on our first date, and she was going on about her job, and her cat, and what I was hearing was blah-blah-blah-blah...” A younger man who thinks he may be on the verge of actually getting some sex is like a cokehead with a line chopped up on the table in front of him; try to get that guy to intelligently discuss the latest issue of the Economist.
No doubt, being not as driven, women tend to not be as focused on getting sex, so can make better decisions. Nobody should put up with asshole behavior, from men or women; that second essay comes off as not just awfully angry but bitter, and I'm sure there's a Men's Version where the guy lists all the qualities that women expect from him that combine to wanting a sensitive, caring Real Man who can also kick some ass defending her and has a great job and drives an Audi...and he's helpless to complain because he'll be labeled a slacker/MRA/scrub.
One thing that frequently comes up here on SL, either peripherally or directly because of a letter, is that almost everyone, male or female, wants to punch a little above their weight. 5's think they deserve 7's, 7's want 9's. Complaining about this, and bringing up hilarious examples, can be cathartic, but we must all push on. So some people want more than they themselves bring to the table – as a line in a Mary Renault book I re-read last week (Last of the Wine, a good one) went, '...and Troy has fallen, is there any other news?'
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and he's helpless to complain because he'll be labeled a slacker/MRA/scrub.

Gotta say, this fact really bums me out.
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Thanks Erica. From what I've read here, you have worked thru a lot to get to this point, where you guys are happy.
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Yes CatB, we must all push on.
I don't agree if a man complains he's labelled a MRA, if that complaint is given with empathy and understanding. In my experience ie my marriage, complaints had little understanding or care for the complexity of our situation.
This guy, LW1, his attitude to his wife has some resonance for me. A man who believes that his cock and it's needs takes precedence over four other people's situation.
Just cuts right thru yelling
' what about me. It isn't fair, I've had enough now I want my share'


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@99: "and he's helpless to complain because he'll be labeled a slacker/MRA/scrub."

Gotta say, this fact really bums me out.


I think the entire system as it exists hurts both men and women in it. I see that point and also the other side--that women feel compelled to go along with hookup culture so that they aren't labeled as uncool or repressed or a bitch.

This is why feminists say that feminism benefits everyone, because a disservice is being done to lot of men as well as women under the current paradigm.
@96: I don't think you understand me. I don't think that a 40-year-old man is going to be unstoppably appealing to a 30-year-old woman. I'm talking about comparing the power that men and women bring to interactions with people their exact ages, and I'm only thinking in terms of relationships, not the ability to get sex. All things being equal in terms of conventional attractiveness, a 20 y/o woman calls the shots or is in a position of power a lot more than a 20 y/o man, and a 50 y/o man is the desired commodity as opposed to a 50 y/o woman. Assuming everyone is interested in and trying to establish a relationship with their peers.