Savage Love Jun 8, 2016 at 4:00 am

Dicks Deluxe


I've travelled in time! I thought it was Monday, but it says Wednesday June 8!

@1 Or it is June, and Dan completed the column early since he is going on vacation, and the software or editor decided to put up the penis column early, since penis columns are happier if they can dangle freely in the wind, like a glorious tube sock on a laundry line.

Oh great, another weekly column featuring gross anatomical details about self-inflicted penile injuries. OUCH indeed. Sure wish these columns came with a trigger warning at the top. I'm glad that Dan provides a professional clearinghouse for folks with worrisome medical issues they'd rather not bring to the family doc, but I sure don't need to read the gory details.

Double-ouch for the pending conversation in the TINY household, a somewhat less gruesome but equally disturbing case study for "MISTAKES WERE MADE" in the penis department. Dan's advice is probably the best way to go in a very bad situation, and guest expert TP's anecdotal experience offers TINY some hope for a brighter future, but initially this train wreck is bound to cause severe emotional and psychological whiplash for TINY's fiancee.

Sorry TINY, but being raised on the Mongolian steppes by wolves is no longer a valid excuse for a man in his 30s. I find it difficult to muster up a lot of sympathy for a man who would claim that a deprived childhood led him to hide his kink from his lover for years - YEARS! - all the way up to the point where they are now engaged, and a breakup will be extremely painful for both parties. Instead of simply leveling with the woman he claims to love enough to marry, he put her through hell (his words) by forcing her to constantly reassure him that his tiny dick was enough to satisfy her, and then refusing to believe her when she said it was. We’ve all seen this play before, TINY playing the insecure and browbeating Othello to GF’s loving and pleading Desdemona. And now that they’ve finally emerged from the turbulence of those early years together and have evolved into a happier and more equitable partnership, he wants to completely switch their dynamic and have her play the role of a demanding Domme who will scorn and humiliate him for having such a tiny dick. Talk about cruel mind games. If she can make her way back to loving and trusting TINY again after he gives her the Big Reveal about his humiliation kink, then she's about as GGG as they come - perhaps a little too GGG, more like a pushover who won’t or can’t stand up for herself and her own needs in a relationship where TINY continues to hold the reins and drive the cart - but I guess he should consider himself one lucky man, if that’s his idea of an ideal partnership. I wish them both well, whatever the final outcome, but I’m not as optimistic as TP that this intended marriage can be saved. If they do split up over this issue, I can only hope that TINY learns a valuable life lesson and goes into his next relationship as a responsible adult who lays his kink cards on the table early, as Dan likes to put it.
Coconut oil for all your cooking, self pleasuring and moisturising needs.
A three inch cock is kinda small. Sure you got the right measurements, Joe?
With all this talk of micro and small cocks lately, not to mention erectile dysfunction.. I'm feeling more compassionate towards the issues some men face.
If the LW wants, we could give him a practice run on the small cock humiliation front. See if it is the way he wants to go. I could put on my leather jacket.
@4: Oh come on, this is classic Savage Love. If never ever want to hear about gruesome sex, consider the title your trigger warning.
"The bottom line is never impede urination or ejaculation by obstructing the urethra," said Dr. Newman.

Hey, is this a get-out-of-condoms-free card?
Obviously, the takeaway ought to be: "prophylactics should only be used as directed."
The 6/7 podcast contains a much more LMB-worthy moment than this column.

After what LW1 has put F1 through already, this does not seem the right sort of relationship into which to introduce humiliation games. It would probably have a bad effect on F1's character. LW1 has harmed F1 enough. The kindest thing he could do would be to cheat and make sure he got caught. Incontrovertibly righteous anger would do F1 good.
Good luck to TINY's fiancee, I hope they both get what they want and it doesn't blow up in their faces. Have escape plans if one of you bails out and aftercare protocols for both parties. Once somebody asked me to talk dirty to him in an aggressive manner with some humiliation. I didn't think he would like it, he insisted "there's nothing you could say that would be too much! It's all on the table!!! I want you to! Anything at all is ok!!!" So I said something pretty mild, he hated it and got upset.
Here's hoping TP told his wife not just about his kink, but also about his relationship with his Domme.
@5 LavaGirl
One more comment like that and I will have to move to Austrailia and invite you out to have a chat over coffee. <3
itchypixie @13. Ok, you live in New Zealand, right. That's gotta be a Kiwi joke. Though you didn't mention sheep, so maybe not.
Has Dan joined fetlife or something? He's got nappy man on the daily thread and humiliate my cock size on here. Talking of fetlife, I'm told the * is no longer wished for, by some Trans people.
Like feminism, the trans story has lots of different paths.
TINY, we had a Jewish woman write in a few weeks ago how she fantazized about her German boyfriend dressing in a Gestapo Uniform, and raping her.
Transforming our stories into an erotic charge as you have done, can be a healthy way to go.
You have to tell your woman of this part of you. Explain it to her as you have to us. Maybe show her the thread.
Then get ready for the 'say what'
that she'll utter. Ride thru it best you can, it's your due.
Then ask her if she could role play this scenario with you. She loves you, it seems. So, tell her.
TINY needs to have a very serious conversation with his fiancée. It should be possible for him to explain that his kink and his earlier anxieties are two sides of the same coin. But he has to say he's just putting his cards on the table, and has zero expectations of her. If she doesn't want to engage with his kink, no problem. If she's happy for him to outsource it, great. If not, also no problem - he'll content himself with fantasy and the occasional website (not camming, if she's not happy with outsourcing). And an enormous apology for not being honest with himself earlier.

All this assumes TINY can be happy if his fiancée doesn't want to be involved with his kink, and doesn't want him to outsource it. He needs to do some very clear thinking before the big conversation. He should not be marrying her if he needs to make their marriage all about his penis, because she's probably pretty tired of that already.
I've never used lube to jerk off,and I'm circumsized. You can't have a marathon session, but you'll get the job done no problem. With lube, I always found it unnecessarily messy. Though it is worth noting that I have had this preoccupation with not getting my hands dirty since birth so much so that I refused to fingerpaint in preschool and will pretty much avoid anything that gets my hands dirty today.

OUCH (and all you other males out there with at least two functioning brain cells), your dick is your friend! Don't be sticking it in beehives, whack off while wearing sandpaper gloves, repeatedly smack it up against a cactus or grab the nearest can of drain cleaner and use it for lube! Didn't think this needed to be said, but...OUCH.
Am I the only one whose first reaction to TINY's question, "How do I tell her that being mocked (and worse) for having a small dick is the only thing I ever think about when I masturbate?", was "Don't!"? Does she tell you what she thinks about when she masturbates? I bet the answer is no, and that's probably for the best.

If all these years of obsessing over your small dick haven't worn her out by now, they may well do so if you ask to make said dick the focus of humiliation play that you're not even sure you may like. Is it worth ruining your good sex life and relationship on spec? I'd advise TINY to see a pro first. If it does turn out SPH gets him off in practice as well as in theory, then broach it with the fiancée,

OUCH is fake.

Shame Dan didn't tackle PPP's real problem, which is obviously premature ejaculation. I'd advise him to bring this up with his doctor during the appointment.
And ditto to misspiggy@17
Piggy @17: "He should not be marrying her if he needs to make their marriage all about his penis, because she's probably pretty tired of that already." Well put! I also liked your suggestion that outsourcing his kink needs might prove to be a good compromise for this couple.

DK @19, your comment literally made me LOL. Just hope your highly creative DON'T list doesn't inspire a few of our crazier brethren to give it a go...OUCH!
BDF @20, I skimmed right past that masturbation reference when I first read TINY's letter, but you make an excellent point. Being honest and open with a partner doesn't equate to sharing every little private thought that runs through one's mind! I also like your suggestion that he go for a test ride with a professional Domme to make sure he knows he really wants and needs SPH in his life, BEFORE he yanks his fiancee's chain. Again.
I don't know why everyone thinks Tiny's reveal will end his relationship. I'm only one hetero woman in the sea, but Tiny's situation doesn't seem too bad to me. I wouldn't be remotely surprised by a man's penis insecurities re-emerging in new ways after a few years, and I would be thrilled by a kink that required little more than a new way of talking! Everybody wins.
BiDanFan: I left something for you over on last week's comment thread.
TINY, in addition to Dan's phenomenal explanation of how your shame over your small penis migrated into a kink, here are a couple things I would like to add that might help:
75% of women can't orgasm from P in V alone, requiring additional stimulation from fingers, tongue, or toys to reach orgasm. So using those to get your GF off is not a handicap, it is standard, and if you embrace that fact it borders on being a feature of sex with you.
Discovery of your kinks much later than puberty is actually pretty common, and unraveling how and why you got those kinks can take years. I am about your age and 5 years ago I was at a strip club when a dancer began squeezing her breast causing some droplets of milk to appear. To my surprise I got incredibly turned on by that and now enjoy a certain amount of porn that involves lactation. I still don't know why that turns me on (the taboo of adult breast feeding? The idea that the breasts are "real" or at their prime during lactation?) but I just go with it.
@18 Creative
Funny! you are the first person other than myself I have heard from who did not like finger painting. I just did not want to get my hands all "dirty" . ..Now having said that I started experimenting with various lubes for the jerk-off when I was 13.
Due to expedience of being naked in the shower, I usually settled on bar soap. To this day if I smell the yellow "Dial" soap I get hard.
Re: mistakes I had one VERY bad experience at 16 when I could not locate any baby oil or Vaseline. Desperate for relief, I saw some "Vicks" vapo-rub and it LOOKED like Vaseline but smelled bad.
Result TERRIBLE pain, no release.
Several decades later I experimented with toothpaste on the recommendation of a sex worker. Pretty amazing that,.... but the messiest lube ever. Just my 2 cents worth.
Re mismatched libido-followers
After a recent 3 week "dry spell," My Miss N. acknowledged that she "knows that I have a stronger sex drive" than she does. I was in the middle of one of my seduction attempts (ultimately successful) and so did not pursue the train of ideas but now I have an opening to explore her opinions on what we might do about this, if she indeed wishes to explore it at all. This is a HUGE development. I do not know what will come of it if anything but at least the elephant in the room is now "seen". wish me luck.
BiDanFan@20, good catch on the underlying issue for PPP.
And sb53, happy to hear that you and your Miss N may yet find a way to communicate openly about your mismatched needs.
sb53, Good luck to you and your Miss N.
I'm calling fake on OUCH but if we roll with what he said, I'm guessing he doesn't have a foreskin. He was referring to the head/glans which got leathery and flaked off a layer. Sort of like a chemical dermal peel for the ole phallus I guess. Maybe he looked younger afterwards?
@ Erica and Nocute THANKS . I am optimistic. After all these years I think she understands that I am really trying. The key will be to have a discussion about our needs without placing blame or being judgey. I respect her need to be left alone and she may try to recognize that we have different needs and I can be flexible as to any ideas she has about bridging the gap. More to follow.
Sb @26: Good luck!
Mental capacity of a doorknob @29: No man would put on TWO condoms unless he was REALLY DESPERATE to last longer. Ergo, premature ejaculation problem.
Fan @20. I don't fantasize the one scenario over and over, do you? This guy says he has the same one on repeat.
What, he goes to a Domme and not tell his woman? That doesn't sound like a good idea. And then he goes further into kink world before he even owns up to his girl that he has one.
@17 misspiggy

"He should not be marrying her if he needs to make their marriage all about his penis, because she's probably pretty tired of that already. "

Especially because it's so small.

(I keed, I keed).
As not just a fan of SPH but also a cuckold, married to originally very vanilla wife, we now have negotiated out a wonderful Hotwife/cuck relationship that allows for all sorts of kinks being explored. But it took a lot of her getting over her "good girls don't [insert kink: pee on, fuck other men in front of, call their hubby's penis tiny and worthless] the person they love. But she did.

She knew from early on in our relationship that I was kinky and we had a don't ask don't tell policy as well as an agreement from her to try out kinky stuff that really was not a lot of fun because she wasn't into it. It's not kinky for your sex partner to go thru the motions of fulfilling your kink when their being into it is part of your kink. But I knew what I liked because I had explored with Pro Dommes and I saw them just often enough to keep my sanity. And finally a crisis in our relationship brought all my frustrations tot he fore, some 15+ years into our relationship. My trying to keep hidden from the most important person in my life the true import of the most important part of my sexuality was really causing a lot of resentment for me and I was finally at the I can't pay the price of admission any more. I finally told her of my need to either see ProDommes openly and share the experiences with her [she could help me choose a Domme to see, hear about the session etc, but somehow share in it] or we had to go see a ProDomme together so she cold see and learn for herself as I couldn't go on like we were. And a lot of kinky submissive guys would have said I had it pretty good. In any case, that far into the marriage, it was not a fun time talking it out. But less than a month later we had our first joint session with a Mistress. And it probably took 5 years for her to find her own happy spot in the kink world. At that was definitely not a spot I ever thought i'd be so happy helping her find and enjoy; it wasn't anywhere near on my list of imagined outcomes. But the other night, after a great fantasy roleplay of our favorite scene [one we do in fact act out] we talked about what we both got out of our kinks and the upshot was I liked doing what she liked me to do because she liked me to do it, not because the specific acts were high on my pre opening up kink parade, and she liked making me do them because she not only enjoyed her role, but seeing me happy at her enjoyment. It works for us both.

So if you are sure that you need SPH in your life and not just as a wank fantasy but as a need worth giving up the something good you have going for you now, you are going to need to lay your cards out on the table. But you need to do it in a way that takes ownership for your not opening up any earlier. But if a trip to the local ProDomme teaches you that SPH is a better wank fantasy than a reality [I myself have a long list of these, rotating thru them keeps the wanking fresh and lively] then don't go there. So my advice is go to a ProDomme and then open up the communication. If you really can't see going thru life without your SPH, then by all mean, you are goiong to have to risk what you have now to work out a way to get it.
@34 Fake or no, I'm still going with that he doesn't know what a foreskin really is. If he grew if straight and cut in the USA, he may have never known the true existence of one.
Just wanted to add my support for the lube-free practice as first brought up by creativityescapesme @ 18 and seconded by sb53 @ 26 (and all the best to you on the marital front)
Some commenters suggest that TINY might try to keep his kink private, but it seems like men with size issues have slow baked their anxiety into a deeply rooted kink, so I have to wonder how likely it is that TINY could successfully rely exercising this kink in private.

That's not to say that I disagree with comments that TINY's fiance is unlikely to be happy that TINY's cock is going to play such a specific role in their sex life, but it seems that letter writers with SPH needs can be hugely focused on this kink. If so, TINY needs to take the risk of blowing up his relationship, but better now than after the wedding.

As was noted above, once he get talking, his fiance may already know what's coming, and based on other letters Dan has received, I don't think she would be the first woman to have gone through this chain of events, and at least some of those other relationships survived. In any event, TINY needs to be very contrite about everything, and if this does blow up his relationship, at least he can start over understanding what he really needs in a partner.
I think Tiny needs a therapist. From his letter it sounds like he harangued his fiancé, dumped her, and generally jerked her around for a looong time. Healthy people don't do that to people they love. It's really hard to make a toxic relationship healthy, happy, and stable and I find it unlikely that she's going to be down for this kink after spending years fighting his insecurity.
TINY while I think outsourcing your kink might be a good idea I can't help but think the money spent on a Dom might be better spent on a therapist. I sense there are some real deep issues with self-loathing driving him, and until he gets a handle on those they are going to poison his life and relationships. At some he's got realize that there is more to life than his dick and he's missed so much by never looking up.

I wonder if the sudden kink is just another way for him to hit self-destruct button his relationship, because I can see the fiancée getting pretty sick of tired of the endless 'dick dance' she has to perform.
@ 33 - Sorry Bi, but you're wrong. Some men put two condoms on because they think it's safer even though it isn't. And yes, some men think it'll make them last longer even though they already last long enough because they've been told (by porn, other clueless guys or our very own Cpt Sealth) that under half an hour is not good enough... So your PE diagnostic is not justified one bit.

You would be amazed how many ridiculous, thoroughly debunked ideas circulate among men of all ages concerning sex.
@44 Ricardo You would be amazed how many ridiculous, thoroughly debunked ideas circulate among men of all ages concerning sex.

Hear hear! For years I thought you shouldn't fuck the knotholes in trees because of the danger territorial squirrels might pose. Turns out there's hardly ever a squirrel in those things!
@ 45 - Now you tell me! All the opportunities I missed...

SPH on the internet

Not bragging or anything, just wasn’t that familiar with the subject. Here are some finds:
Once you google “sph” the very first result is the urban dictionary, as we know it here: Small Penis Humiliation. Singapore Press Holdings comes third, and apparently those librals in Boston have some sort of SPH program in at least one of their tax payers-funded public universities

When keying in “small penis humiliation” you find this lovely British scene. It’s amazing how well they always act, even in porn. All those Shakespeare productions they must have been forced to participate in since they were very young.
And don’t you dare missing those amazingly creative spoon maneuvers starting at 4:00…

Not sure how authentic is this site. Is it nothing but an SPHee fantasy page?
Authentic females are encouraged to give us their authentic opinions…

@DonnyKlicious: the danger territorial squirrels might pose

You haven't really fucked until you've fucked one with a squirrel in it.
Is this my fault? I did mention sheep up thread. Men's minds.
Maybe TINY, I wish he'd given the inches, then one could visualize, just needs this scene to occur some of the time.
He may be taken over by the fantasy while he's self pleasuring because it is so releasing for him, and won't need to play it every sexual encounter, once he tells his fiancé. How quaint we took a French word for that.
Do I have to watch this video, CMD. Should I suit up, just to get in the vibe.
Sublime @41: "TINY needs to take the risk of blowing up his relationship, but better now than after the wedding."
An excellent point.

Ricardo @44: Thanks for the alternative viewpoint. To me the clincher was the "spoiler alert: it didn't" that suggested PPP was desperate to avoid a PE. But you're right; like the average-dicked giant from a few SLLOTDs ago, PPP might instead be holding himself to a porn-inspired standard. Or his wife might take a long time to come vaginally; in other words, it might be she, not he, who's unusual. (As this is a husband and wife, I don't think "extra safety" is a factor here.)
@48 "apparently those librals in Boston have some sort of SPH program in at least one of their tax payers-funded public universities"

What makes you think Boston University is a public university? It isn't.

Alejandro @52: Joke?
BiDanFan @53. I get that CMD was making a joke about conservatives who disapprove of "librals" and their "tax payers-funded public universities." Using BU in the joke would make sense if it were actually a public institution, but it isn't. It might make sense as a joke if it were widely known that BU is a private institution (like, say, Harvard), or if it was obvious that CMD knew it was a private institution. But I don't think BU is sufficiently well known for that and what CMD knows about it is not really clear. So, if it's a joke I think it's not a very well constructed one. Oh, well.
@ 51 - You're right, extra safety is definitely not a concern in this situation, It's just an additional reason why some men sometimes use two condoms.

The thing is that a lot of guys are extremely worried about their performance not being up to porn standards, to the levels that their friends brag about or, most disturbingly, to the things they would tell one another when they were 13 years old. It can relate to penis size, length of penetration, amount of ejaculate, capacity to achieve all the positions of the Kama Sutra, etc. But whatever it is, it rarely has anything to do with their actual failings, which mostly result from them not listening to their partners...

Am I the only one who thought ‘flaky foreskin’ was referring to the remaining crust of lube, rather than an actual foreskin?
On the website verysmartbrothas, they did a whole article on the hazards of just washing, let alone self-pleasuring, with uncut Dr. Bonner’s.

#44 Ricardo - Your comment made me think of the rap lyrics by (I think) John Forte
“I eat three stars at every mizeal
I wear three condoms down in Brazil..”
And yes, men hold any number of mistaken ideas about sex, with variations on ‘staying power’ being among them. A lot of the media, and not just porn, tells men that longer is better, ‘don’t be a two-pump chump,’ women’s ideas on the subject, which have often been expressed here, are an interesting counterpoint.
Awkward: If we were being super sleuth like, one could check the tax returns of all the private donors. Assuming if they can fund a University that they are pretty good with money and loopholes.
Voilà.. they are tax payer funded institutions after all.
If their tax is all okey dokey, capitalism has still smiled on them with more than their share. Voilà again.
@55 Ricardo. Thanks for the inside info. Yes, all that performance anxiety doesn't leave much room to be able to listen and act spontaneously.
Porn Eh. Who would have thought.
Alejandro @ 52, 54
Thanks for correcting me, there's only so much I can- and want- to look into late at night while semi intoxicated.
I hope those spoon maneuvers make up for my ignorance, let me know what you think.
@ 56 - So let's add rap lyrics to my list of bad sources of sexual info.

@ 58 - It's not just porn, as you can see. I mostly feel that men's insecurities are so profound that they lose all common sense and believe anything they see, read or hear, even when their sources are as deeply clueless as they themselves are.

I don't know about today's kids, but in my time, within groups of boys, from the very moment one of them reached puberty, all the others were made to feel inadequate for not having done so, whether it be not having pubic hair, having a prepubescent (i.e. small) penis, not being able to ejaculate, etc. Then, once everyone was pretty much at the same development level, they started comparing how far and how fast (!!!) they could come, etc. After one of them had had sex (or so he claimed), all the others were told they were useless with girls or, worse yet, faggots, so they all started pretending having much more experience than they did. And it went on like that at every stage.

I blame machismo more than I blame porn. And that mostly came from their fathers and older brothers. Guys can really hurt one another for life without raising a single finger.

FFS, people, saliva = lube. You're never without unless you're dehydrated (and you should be drinking more water in that case, irrespective of saliva-as-sexual-lubricant needs). Do not rub unfamiliar chemicals on your sexy bits, and especially don't do so without reading (and UNDERSTANDING) every word on that label.. I know saliva isn't ideal, as it dries out pretty quickly, but its so much better than risking a caustic product on sensitive skin or mucous membranes.
Oh, and Ricardo is spot-on about the terrible state of sexuality knowledge in the general population, most of which is perpetuated by rumor and false media depictions. Lack of good comprehensive sex ed almost anywhere in the USA is a big part of our problem, as it means lots of people never get corrective information, though it's additionally concerning that so few people take the time to seek out good information on their own, either through discourse with their actual partner(s) to find out what works in any given context with the particular, actual person(s) with whom one is having sex or from good sexuality education/information sources on the Interwebs (Scarleteen is my top recommendation). But I suppose if most people were actually more worried about getting good information or treating the people around them well than about conforming to dominant social norms, we wouldn't have anti-vaxxers or global warming deniers.
Sounds exhausting Ricardo. Girls have similar stuff going on. Boobs and all. Though I don't remember celebration around menstration starting.

@ 63 - And exhausting it was. Having grown up with three older sisters, I witnessed the similarities, but you're right, there wasn't much celebration around the start of menstruation. Quite the opposite.

I'm not sure guys celebrated that much either, though - it was more a sort of relief because the bullying might go down a bit.
Yet it's not a performing man one desires, it's an erotic man. Then the performance naturally follows.
And porn is involved, Ricardo. You said it. The constant visual comparison.
Porn does nothing for me. Watching strangers pretend fuck. And I don't want to see beautiful young women constantly, sexually performing. Forcing me by habituation to compare myself with them.
I know where my body falls down, I still have to feel it's erotic qualities, without judgement. The whole comparison waste of time gets you what? Stupid men measuring their cocks. Where they should be honouring their mighty sword, as Randy Newman would say.
@ 65 - Involved, yes, but not the main culprit.

Too often boys are told from a very early age that they must compete, not collaborate, and that goes for their sexuel prowess as well. Life becomes a contest of who pisses the furthest, literally (for kids) and metaphorically (for men). Porn merely feeds that mentality.

Total failure here, Dan.

If he isn't circumsized, he's obvious using lubrication for a specific reason; of which there are many, ranging from a little inconvenient to should-be-medically-treated.

Total failure here, Dan.

If he isn't circumsized, thrn he's obvious using lubrication for a specific reason; of which there are many, ranging from a little inconvenient to should-be-medically-treated. But I can't imagine that if he has a "typically operating" uncircumcised penis that he'd use lube at all.
Lava @63: Yes. Puberty is a challenge for girls too. Hair where you are not "supposed" to have hair. Asking your mother for razors. Getting your period unexpectedly in class, what could be more mortifying? Watching helplessly as everyone but you outgrows their training bras... or was that just me.

But Ricardo's right: While there's a lot of comparing yourself to other girls, and discussion of who'd had their period and who hadn't (our mothers "celebrated", but we sure didn't), there wasn't the sort of competition and humiliation you describe boys doing to each other. I think another issue is boys see their fathers' penises, and to a child an adult penis must seem impossibly big and hairy, and boys think they'll never look like that, even though chances are they eventually will. It is a shame there is so much pressure on men to "perform" rather than on "mutual enjoyment."

Cat @56: I also thought OUCH's made-up letter was referring to a foreskin-like layer of flakiness, not an actual foreskin.
One thing schools should do is, for fuck's sake, give adolescents some privacy when they're showering. How many psychological scars could be avoided.
70- BiDan-- On the other hand, privacy, which sounds like a good thing, teaches that there's something shameful about our bodies such that they need to be kept away from others at all times. Privacy means that we'd never get to see ordinary bodies doing ordinary things like dressing and washing. If I hadn't seen girls/women in the locker room growing up, those both ahead of me in the puberty business and behind, my only images of adult women would have been the airbrushed ones in Playboy and Penthouse, the pornography of my day. In my case, I'd never have had anyone to show me how to use deodorant, make-up, tampons, leg-shaving equipment, and a bra. (My mother was embarrassed. She managed to buy me pads, once, then figured I was smart and could figure out everything else on my own.)

That's not to say I don't see your point. It's just that there's meanness and kindness everywhere, and getting rid of the sports-centered communal locker room, would have, I think, an element of throwing out babies with bathwater.
I won't doubt Mr Ricardo's experience, but would ask others, especially the women, please not to universalize it, as I never underwent or saw firsthand (or even secondhand) evidence of anything of the kind.

I'll blame the combination of the two elements of the joust.

Fichu @71: I'm sorry, but privacy doesn't teach that there's something shameful about bodies. Privacy teaches self-respect and boundaries. BULLIES teach that there's something shameful about (specific) bodies. I'm sorry your mother shirked on her duty in helping guide you through adolescence, didn't subscribe to National Geographic, and never took you to a beach. But those things you learned in the locker room could have been learned in small groups of your friends after school. You seem to have had a "normal" body; you can't imagine how difficult it was for the kids who had no one behind them, or indeed ahead of them, in the developmental derby. Forcing under- or over-developed kids to parade themselves in front of gawkers is cruel. (And what about the issue du jour, transgender kids? Give everyone privacy, and you solve that problem.)
@ 71 - Just imagine what it's like for a 14 year old gay boy with raging hormones to have to shower with a bunch of guys, and his fear of getting an unintentional erection because he knows that if he does, the whole school will soon learn that he truly is a faggot and he'll be bullied relentlessly until he leaves town.

BiDanFan is right: privacy would have been better.

@ 72 - You're very lucky. That was a pretty universal experience when I was growing up. And all of the male friends I made later from other town and cities (and some other countries) had had similar experiences.
When I was a teen, getting a hard-on more or less happened to everyone whenever the wind blew and (at least in the locker room) was an occasion to do the, "Hey guys, feast your eyes on this!" thing. Nobody thought it was "faggy." But then, I grew up in a little farm town and the nearest gay person was hundreds of miles away. So we thought. Who knew? They were there all the time!
I went from 8 years of Nuns teaching us that it was sinful to even look at one's own body in a bathroom mirror to showering twice a day with 30 guys in a large shower room. Showering after P.E. was required, but only suggested after sports practice. I quickly deduced that it was freeing to drop all that self-consciousness and go with it. The H.S showering undid a lot of guilt-damage done by the nuns.
sb53@76...Agree that for the majority of boys the shower room was/is an opportunity to get over all that self-consciousness & accept nudity as a normal thing (I know it's different for the picked-on kids, but they're most likely getting harassed in every facet of life, not just the locker room, which is terrible - not denying it). I always thought it was strange that the girls had separate showers (at least in most of the locker rooms I ever visited as the "away" team) and theorized that that contributed more than a little to so many of their body hang-ups.
Donny @77: Hmm. Chicken versus egg? Were the girls more hung up about their bodies because we were allowed to shower in at least semi privacy (my own experience), or were we mercifully given curtains because school administrators knew we were suffering from crippling body hang-ups? (It's true, you don't need to strip naked for the whole school to know who's got the flattest, and who's got the most abundant chest.)
Perhaps the school administrators were just hedging against lawsuits, after seeing the movie "Carrie." Haha.
Can't say, Bi@78, as I have never claimed to understand the inner workings of the female mind, but it seems like those crippling body hang-ups just get reinforced by a "for god's sake don't ever look at each other naked! It's disgusting!" attitude.

Personally, a shower room fully of giggling, naked girls seems like a great thing to me. Or was that just a "Porky's" movie plot?
Yes, sounds like a male fantasy, Donny.
Adolescent girls. God they can be cruel bitches.
I can think of only two female friends, that I would have trusted enough to shower communally with. No such think at the schools I attended.
Then Catholic school girls were their own brand of horrid.
So. If we changed the millieu in which our girls grew up, things could be very different.
My six year old granddaughter has a delightful and healthy young body. Where ever there is space, she does cartwheels. Doing gymnastics, she is.
Sadly, I worry who or what will start interfering with this lovely female person and her strong body as she grows up.
@80 - Oh yes, such a lovely thing in your head. Because none of those girls are fat with spotty faces, right? Because none of them already have stretch marks and jiggly thighs. If I had been forced to show my body to a gaggle of vicious teen girls, there would have been no bloody survivors.
@70 BiDanFan: Agreed about the lack of privacy in girls' locker rooms when bathing. Shower facilities in military training bases were just as bad for me. Good analysis on "Carrie".
@80 DonnyKlicious: Therein lies the difference, Donny. What you might consider to be the ideal male fantasy can be and often is a woman's or girl's emotionally unsettling nightmare.
@81 LavaGirl and @83 sanguisuga: Although I never attended a Catholic school (to LavaGirl), I share your angst.
Mr Ricardo - Well, I needed some luck at that time.
I grew up in a socialist commune of some sort. We, the kids, didn’t sleep with our parents but rather shared a “children house” with our peers. There were 14 in my “group” and we did everything together, including sharing rooms and showering.
On 6th grade, when the girls started growing some cone-like bulges on their chest and sprout hair here and there, the showers were assigned to boys and girls on different times and when you changed you announced something like, “Girls, don’t pass by the third room!”
We still shared rooms through high schools in a regional boarding school-like environment.

As a teenager I once read a piece in the official party weekly magazine that boasted the system, declaring something like, “No homosexuals here because we raise our boys and girls together.”
Little did I know about life back then, I immediately sensed a big pile of cows manure.
And I did know a thing or two about cows manure as there were quite a few of cows over there, and I did get to milk them every now and then.
Ricardo nailed it and then plus the locker room nightmares- worst experience of my life was in 8th grade locker room.
Fuck that asshole coach.

Anyway, but yeah- dudes are indeed, very competitive.
Donny @80: You've got it backwards. It was never about whether girls should be looking at the other girls. The terror was about the other girls looking at you.
In retrospect, of course, probably none of them would have been looking at me because they were all obsessing about their own too-small or too-large breasts, body hair, "thunder thighs" or cellulite, as Sanguisuga describes. No more perfect tits and giggling than Ricardo's fantasy locker room would have existed in reality, sorry.

Aeros @87: Ugh, how awful for you :(
The girls' locker rooms in my junior high and high schools both had communal showers, and group showers were mandatory in junior high (7th and 8th grades). I don't know how all the girls felt about it, but for a girl who hadn't yet developed breasts and was very self-conscious, it was agony and I was sure that the school was deliberately trying to humiliate us.

At summer camp, though, there was also a communal shower and female campers of all ages and counselors showered together. I was impressed by the older counselors' lack of self-consciousness or apparent embarrassment, and that went a long way to my own self-acceptance.
@ 88 - Sorry Bi, but what to you mean by my locker room fantasy? The locker room only meant trauma to me.
what DO you mean
Nocute: I think junior high/middle school was definitely the most traumatic time in terms of being unequally developed. By high school, everyone either had breasts or was never going to.

Ricardo @90: I meant to draw a parallel with Donny's nonexistent giggling-girl-filled locker room. Your fantasy locker room -- as opposed to the one of your real experience -- would be filled with hot, openly gay boys playfully swatting each other with towels, helping each other soap up after a good workout... No? Well, I'm enjoying the mental picture, anyway.
CMD @86, did you grow up on an Israeli kibbutz? You didn't mention how much adult supervision you had in the "children house," but as a parent I would be very concerned about all those uber-hormonal adolescents and older teens living together in such close quarters, with older kids potentially preying on younger ones, as often occurs in actual boarding schools. SS vs. OS would be the least of my concerns; I would be more worried that the kids would become sexualized before they were emotionally and physically mature enough to handle it. Was that what your BS detector was registering?
Capri @ 93
Yes, that’s where I grew up. Adult supervision was always there in an early age and far less so in that “boarding school” later on where we enjoyed an “ideological” intended autonomy.
Those of us growing together in a “group” often felt our peers are our “siblings” more than anything else.
There was dating and stuff going on that sometimes involved a year or two age difference- needless to say, always in favor of the boys- but there wasn’t much or any abuse that I know of, or at least didn’t go beyond the norms of those days (mid 70’s.)

My BS alarm went on because I knew I’m different and wondered if I’m destined to become a “homo.” There was another boy in my class who was clearly gay and for different reasons it took him few more years to finally come out.
I saw that piece in the magazine as nothing but a social experiment boasting itself time after time. And while there were positive sides to this way of living, there were also quite a few that weren’t.

When I was 5 yo my smaller “group” was united with another one, slightly older, and it took me few days to finally overcome my embarrassment and take a shower with all the others. The woman who was taking care of us made fun of me in front of the other kids. She wasn’t necessarily mean, just had to tow the “all together now” party line and I was standing in the way.

In other news: does anyone follow the European championship and/or Copa America?

TINY - When we met, I was really insecure and
When you can finish this sentence with "I still am" you will be in better shape to deal with your shit and learn to separate caring for someone else from caring for yourself.

After everything I put her through—and I put her through hell—how do I tell her that being mocked (and worse) for having a small dick is the only thing I ever think about when I masturbate?
Carefully, considering that she might not be the woman-who-can-take-anything any more than you're the man-who-can-take-anything. I'd suggest y'all fill out a BDSM checklist and exchange answers. Gauge by her reaction to that particular kink, whether you respond with a "Yeah I focused on that stupid shit so much it became a kink. I'm not saying you have to go there with me or anything." or whether you start outlining some details that you are SURE YOU WON'T HAVE A MELTDOWN ABOUT that she could try out if she's interested.

And I hope you apologized for any bullying.

OUCH - Ouch. Don't tell your dates about it. And don't fry their junk like you fry yours.

PPP - And you didn't get tossed out for being an idiot with birth control?

Future - I responded to you last week. Hopefully not offensively.
@ 92 - Please enjoy that fantasy has much as you want.

Mine (which has been fully realized many times over) is of a Mexican bathhouse filled with middle-aged men of the husky/bearish variety openly fucking in the showers and the steamrooms. I'm a bit more crude than you think, I guess.
BDF @ 92
Ricardo @ 96
I guess both scenarios, real and fantasy alike, live up to the “Dicks Deluxe” title of this week’s SL.
Ricardo @96: Well, I'm glad you've been able to make some more positive associations with locker rooms in your later years. :)
CMD @94, I have a woman friend who also was born and grew up on a kibbutz. Her parents and two of her siblings are still in Israel, but she came back to the US for university and ended up staying here. She says she's glad for the experience and it helped to shape her adult life and choices, but no way in hell would she put her own kids through it. I can see that it would be even more difficut for you, when you felt a sense of being "different" but had no way and no one to talk with about that, for fear of challenging the party line.

Philo @95, I like your take on all three of this week's letters, especially your suggestions on how TINY should set the stage for his Big Reveal.
Capri @ 99
"She says she's glad for the experience and it helped to shape her adult life and choices, but no way in hell would she put her own kids through it"

Sounds familiar, that's what we all say.
Ricardo, nice fantasy. Oh, reality as well.
If I was in Donny's fantasy,
giggling naked girls showering, I'd be the one offering to soap up their breasts.
@ 97 - Wow, we've managed to stay on topic! Let's celebrate!

@ 98 - So am I (huge grin)

@ 101 - I wish that fantasy did something for me, alas it never has.
Dan and everyone please forgive me. The horrible mass shooting in Orlando, Florida (holy FUCK--where I once went through military basic training!) today has me feeling very upset right now. I feel just sick, and am not in much of a mood to discuss dicks.
I'll try again next week.
Hugs, prayers, and heartfelt VW beeps and condolences to all,

SB @66/Donny @67: Your comments on how communal showers helped boys get over their shame at nudity has made me wonder: Is one negative side effect of this some adult men's idea that it is perfectly okay to send unsolicited photos of their penises? They're nothing to be ashamed of, right? Whereas women, who showered in privacy, don't do such things. If there is a correlation, that's another argument in favour of giving boys a bit of personal dignity as a lesson for how to comport themselves later in life.

SB, how was your weekend?

Griz, agreed -- a shocking situation. Makes me wish hell were real.
@104 BDF I cannot comment on the sexting-of-penises phenomenon. I must say I don't get it.
(I have, however enjoyed receiving some lovely breast shots of females over the years.) I am resisting getting a cell phone, and unless someone ASKS for a such a photo cannot imagine me sending one. My take on the habit is that we men become so enamored of our "equipment" (thank you Seinfeld's Elaine) that we wish to show it around.
RE ms. Griz.
Thank you for the lovely image of you and your pink bar of Caress in the shower assisting the hygiene of your fellow ladies. I am holding this image in my mind all day!

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