Savage Love

Diapers and Peepers


Iwas @ 104
"Not saying this isn’t your position, just want to make a point "
I also think that Dan failed to offer PARK legal alternatives with real people involved.

Who needs real humans when there is porn is a SophieX assertion which I'm hesitant to challenge for safety reasons.
Chase @99: Oh, agreed with that point. Men who don't want to have sex with women also don't want women watching them having sex is a pretty obvious conclusion.

CMD @102: Oh yes. I thought Dan's proposed compromise was a good one. The men who are having outdoor sex illegally are compromising by doing it under cover of darkness, where people are less likely to nonconsensually see them. PARK, who (let's assume) likes to watch others without their knowledge, is compromising by watching others who are technically in a public place.
DIAPERS - Should you be respectful to your boyfriend? Is that a lame joke? Yes, you should treat him with respect and not call him a liar (or unbelievable) to his face without proof. What I would do, is ask WHY he doesn't want you to diaper up with him in safety and solidarity. I can't see why he'd decline, unless he is more looking for a mommy to play with him. I am a big fan of disclosing kinks very early, as romantic relationships are often all wound up in sex and sexual compatibility matters so much. But if this is an early disclosure, he's not doing it right by claiming it's not a kink. Seems like a weird personality thing that he's disclosing early like a kink. Or that he doesn't want to look shady if you catch him with diapers on...

I'd talk a lot about it with him, to see if he would like to keep it away from you, or involve you in some way you haven't guessed yet, ask how this worked with past girlfriends, how he feels about having babies if that's something you're into, etc. If you think there is some possibility of reaching some mutual understanding and the diaper thing doesn't kill your lady boner.

CASH - Does this mean I could find equal companionship with both?
One interesting part of being human is that we don't completely know ourselves ever. You can make guesses about what you like before you try it, but you never really know until you try. I think the only decent conclusion to be drawn here is that you're bi-curious.

Should I wait until I find the right person and decide from there?
Yes. No... there is no right person.. but if you feel attracted to someone, I hope you pursue it.. if it never turns into sexual attraction, maybe you could be asexual... do you jack off? want to jack off with other attractive people? That's an indication that you're sexual despite not having explored that part of yourself much yet.

PARK - What are my options here?
You could go beyond Dan's advice and identify as a gay transman, if you're mostly just into gay men. You could hire some men to perform for you instead of scavenging and tricking them.
Ms Cute - As things have slowed a bit, what did you make of New Prudie's letter from the lesbian with the girlfriend of the oopsie! pregnancy?
@109: Mr.Ven, I thought Nu-Pru was uncharacteristically authoritative with the lw. I don't disagree with her DTMFA advice, but it was unusually directive for her.

As for the girlfriend with the pregnancy, she sounds like a real piece of work.

Ms. Ciods and I left some things over at the book group discussion recently.
Ms Cute - I wanted a woman's opinion, as I feel unqualified to pronounce on the aspect of sharing and if anything augmenting LW's ire that she was the one they'd decided would carry their only child. It did occur to me to wonder how different the letter and response might have been had GF been the one appointed to carry and she'd just decided unilaterally to do it naturally.

I've been idly interested in the situation ever since marriage popped onto the horizon, wondering how equality and biology would intersect in such a case if, say, the pair here were married or married during the pregnancy.
Hunter78 @111: I think someone else needs to keep their day job.
Hun - There's not an actual question addressed to me. Were you confused that I categorized cross dressing as "transgender lite"? Or were you confused about why I think it would serve her well if she started identifying as a gay man, if she is mostly attracted to gay men?

I've only known one trans(woman) as a good friend before the transition. As a he, he dated a chain of not bi, but lesbian-identified women. I thought the transition made a sad sort of sense; his major attraction was gay people of the opposite sex, and the only alternative to secret relationships, the only path to acceptance was to become a her.

Maybe PARK actually wants to join in the hot sex someday and not just watch. Maybe she could try to find the rare bi guy with a boyfriend to date, and that would scratch her itch. Or maybe she wants to participate in man-on-man action more directly, as a man. The solutions get pretty extreme when your target group doesn't find you attractive by definition.

Or maybe this is a lark that has her cruising parks at night and writing to sex advice columnists, and she'll be off to the next thing soon.

To pestering nonsense - So you're gonna quit your day job and blog instead? Because obviously of course clearly you're the expert? Good luck with that. And please fuck off.
Dan's advice to PARK was bad to begin with, and I see no reason to continue that streak. Essentially both Philo and Dan suggest PARK to project herself as a man in order to be able to view a kind of sex she is into (we don't know that this is ALL she wants.)
The notion that people change gender on a whim just to get an instant sexual hit fits the current bathroom hysteria.

Philo- your transitioned friend’s attraction to lesbians may have been part of her identity.
Not that many straight men who get off on lesbian porn feel the urge to go through sex change for the sole purpose of making it easier for them to fuck lesbians.
I suspect the same goes for a female-born who likes man-man action.
CMD @118: "The notion that people change gender on a whim just to get an instant sexual hit fits the current bathroom hysteria."

I know, right? If that suggestion were serious, it would imply that trans women are, in fact, perverts who wanted to look at women peeing and changed their entire bodies and identities in order to do so more easily. Which we all know is not the case.

I've always thought my salary was a bit too low. Reckon I'll transition to male. That'll fix that problem. Easy peasy!
Sorry to be so late posting again (just in time for Hunter's Week in Review)!--it has been so crazy busy for me lately. I have just now been catching up on Savage Love and comment reading, and look forward to this next week's Savage Love Column and threads.
Hugs and VW beeps,
Hunter @120: It wasn't that "no one in the commentariat found fault with that." Hell, I thought it was a joke. It HAD to be, right? People don't just change their gender for convenience! No, I have been forbidden from directly responding to a certain poster on here. Who, though I am voluntarily observing her, uh, request that I not reply to her posts or address her directly, does not even begin to have the authority to demand that I not reply to replies to her posts. On a public forum.

It's late in the week; by the time I checked back to scroll past (as best I could, but some things just leap out at one) Post 108, we were past your Post 111.

And since this seems to need clarifying: "Don't quit your day job" implies "... to become a comedian, as that joke was terrible."
Mr Hunter - I did wonder once or twice about whether that LW deserved to be assisted, but I've been compiling, but I've used up my weekly quota on Orlando.
It was an insensitive suggestion Philo. Yes, as CMD pointed out, Dan had already suggested she dress as a man.
A woman who watches others without their consent, is not worth getting stressed about, Philo. I'm sure you meant no harm.
CMD - Not that many straight men who get off on lesbian porn feel the urge to go through sex change for the sole purpose of making it easier for them to fuck lesbians.
And not that many sneak around lesbian areas trying to see some real life action. But PARK is that drawn to gay dudes.

The most sensible reason for transitioning that I've heard of is to appeal better to their target; either straight people of the same gender, or gay people of the opposite gender.

If my friend just wanted to use the ladies' room, there would be no reason to name change or take estrogen. And she had no problem banging lesbians as a guy either. The problem was with establishing healthy public non-secretive relationships with them. Being a dirty secret would get old fast for me, too.

If PARK is mostly attracted to gay men. I see no reason why she shouldn't engage more fully as a transman if that's what turns her crank. Why discourage transitioning? Is there something particularly unattractive about transmen? I am confused at your protest because it seems like transitioning made you happier because it immersed you in the queer women scene... so I don't understand why you don't think it could help PARK..

Hun - People start identifying as transgender at some point. Maybe at the point when they realize that being transgender would make their ideal relationships work better.
@127.Philo. Where have you heard that re the reason people transition? That is totally off the mark.
People transition because they 'feel' the other sex. Leave it Philo. That's my suggestion. The hole just seems to get bigger.
The Week in Review part 2
As painful as it may be I must admit: Hunter got it right few times this week.
Philo- take Lava's advice before it's too late.
Back in the days of lesbian bars, lots of straight men tried to get in to watch women make out. (Even more would have if the rumour had spread that a straight man had ever succeeded.)

It’s a very common, very simple fantasy based on the notion that if one is good, two are better. While some lesbian-identified male-bodied people might also have wanted to get into lesbian bars to watch lesbians, they did not make up the majority of the disappointed penis-people turned away at the door.
I have been asked to chime in.
People do not "choose" their gender identity any more than they "choose" their sexual orientation. Philo's friend did not think "Hmm, I seem to be attracted to lesbians; I bet I'd get more lesbians if I changed sex." That's ridiculous. Philo's friend dated lesbians because she was a lesbian. Even when she had a male body. A lesbian in a male body isn't going to be happy dating straight women, because a straight woman will not be attracted to her feminine self and will try to discourage her from transitioning. A lesbian will be attracted to the woman she is on the inside.

As often as I've lamented the difficulties of attracting women as a female, never once have I thought "I know, I'll become a trans man." Because that's not how it works.

Besides, as sad as it is to say, trans people are, generally, the pariahs of the dating world. We've seen some of their letters in this column. They face everything from nasty "No trans" comments on dating sites to outright violence. They are either rejected or fetishised. Nobody would voluntarily change sex in order to improve their dating prospects; that would be like cutting off one's right arm in order to improve one's baseball game. Watch this scene from Sense8 for an example of how trans women are frequently treated in the lesbian community:…

People start identifying as transgender when they realise the gender they feel they are does not match the pronouns people are using for them. It is usually long, long before they feel any sort of sexual attraction towards anyone. Maybe you should have a conversation with your friend, and listen to what she says.
Hun - Do you think that it helps or hinders our communication, that we consider each other to be above averagely ignorant.

Many gay people recognize their difference before puberty. Way before they have any kind of "target"?

It exposes you to a lot of harassment to come out as gay. But if you want a relationship with your preferred gender/orientation, you advertise (out yourself) & attempt to attract them.

I gather that transitioning is a sensitive subject. I'm not going to talk any more about why I listed it among PARK's options. I most emphatically believe that transitioning is a valid option to choose, if it seems to work for ya. Granted it seems to be a bigger lifestyle change than coming out as gay.

Lava - Where have you heard that re the reason people transition?
It seemed to be a short-lived trend before DOMA, to transition and get married, at least among women in relationships with other women. Otherwise known, back in those bad old days, as living the straight lifestyle. Now maybe more people transition and prefer to date SS. I don't find anything wrong with this. Doesn't seem to be hurting anyone.

Yes, for a person who is already on the fence about their identity and whether to transition, and whose same-sex partner is bisexual, and who wishes to marry, the inducement of legal rights for them and their partner might in some cases tip the balance in favour of transition.

Most people are not on the fence and there is no reason to think that PARK is.
Philo- under the guise of openness and accommodation you come up with ideas that are ignorant at best. It's quite painful painful realizing you actually believe in them.
There is not a huge gulf of difference between a butch dyke and a trans man. Just ask Patrick (formerly Pat) Califia or Leslie Feinberg. It does make sense that someone whose identity was butch could elect to identify as male in order to reap the social benefits. Or it could be that women who appeared, to outside observers with little knowledge of trans issues, to be butch dykes actually were trans men living in the lesbian community with their female partners. (And often, those same couples were rejected by the lesbian community post-transition. So much for social benefits.)

At any rate, you're not going to get anyone besides the butchest of the butch voluntarily taking testosterone and having their breasts removed, walk down the aisle or no walk down the aisle.
Philo, what is this double speak you get into when you are challenged.
The harm done you ask? Trans people have no choice. As in our sexual orientation we have no choice.
To even suggest someone would put themselves thru hormones and/ or surgery, not to mention the social upheaval and discrimination they will get, to atract a certain sex is stupid; beyond stupid.
And ideas like that feed into how so many people, who are not trans allies, think.
Alison - Fine, I'll talk more about my advice to PARK. Obviously, you think there is no reason to consider that PARK may be trans. Obviously, I do. I think it's far more generous to suggest that her extreme actions may stem from transgender confusion. Channeling her sexual energy toward gay men whom she has good reason to believe cannot find her sexually attractive.. that seems unethically sadistic. Unless she's having an understandably tough time coming out as a gay transman. I want to comfort her if she's going through transgender confusion. I want to make a nasty pig face at her if she simply doesn't care whether the object of her attentions wants to be with her or not.

CMD - Calling my ideas "ignorant" doesn't actually communicate any information. Except that I pissed you off. Didn't mean to cause you pain.

Lava - what is this double speak you get into when you are challenged.
What a shitty way to accuse me of being unclear on purpose. I had to look up what double speak meant. So I think you're being deliberately unclear.
An apology is what is needed here Philo. Not long winded diversions. An apology to trans people for your words implying their transition is in any way some sort of a ploy.
An apology to trans people for your words implying their transition is in any way some sort of a ploy.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Philo. Re read your posts from @1o8.
Read what you said. Comprehend how others would interpret what you said. Implying someone could identify as a trans man, in order to watch a couple of gay men.. that was the first statement. You comments get more offensive towards Trans people from there.
Implying someone could identify as a trans man, in order to watch a couple of gay men.. that was the first statement.
Wrong. Dan suggested that she pretend to be a man in order to watch gay men. I suggested that she may actually be a closeted transman. (I know who will tell me to cross dress! Dan Savage! I don't have to take that scary step on my own!) But maybe she doesn't know about bi guys. Or she really doesn't care about what other people want and she's just a jerk.

Do you usually respond by demanding apologies when someone tells you that you're being shitty?
I scared the men—they stopped their activities and left the park when they saw me watching—and I felt bad. I feel like I should have said something like "Don't let me stop you!" and then perhaps been able to watch.


She doesn’t know how gay men in a public park feel about being watched having semi-public sex. She has good reason to think they’re ok with being watched because their chosen venue is a public park, but that was contradicted by the behaviour of the men who noticed her watching. So now she’s confused. Is it ok to watch or not? Is there etiquette around it? Let’s ask Dan!

Straight women don’t get a lot of pushback from men telling them they are being threatening and creepy so most of them aren’t used to thinking of their presence as being a problem for men. Dan pointed out what is obvious to you, but it’s not at all surprising that it wasn’t immediately obvious to her.
Philo see @127 " the most sensible reason I've heard....", as if people transition to better appeal to their target audience. Right there is the most offensive comment. The one I felt an apology is warranted by you. To Trans people.
And I don't see where you suggested she might be a closeted Trans man.

You raise good points. But what I can't get my head around, is this fixation on gay men, as opposed to trying to date bi men (or hire hookers). I don't think you can compare it to porn; those actors are signing up to be watched by attractive and unattractive viewers alike, the actors never interact with the viewer one iota, and who knows if they are even gay.. maybe they are bi or just going through the motions with someone for a paycheck. Completely different to be fixating efforts on real life gay men. It reminds me a little of my transitioned friend, only much less ethical.

Lava - Ok that seemed more considerate. Although you're still going on about apologies, I don't think you're having a bad reaction and out of control jumping down my throat anymore..

I think of transitioning a lot like coming out. If you are attracted only to the same gender.. it's good to come out as gay. If you are attracted only to the same gender, but really don't fit in with the queer scene, instead feel like you truly identify as hetero... it's good to transition. If you are attracted to the opposite of your birth gender, but you don't feel straight, and would like to fit in with the queer scene.. it's good to transition. See? It has nothing to do with hormones or surgery, that's not part of everyone's transition, but some people like to do it. And is taking transition hormones to better attract a mate any different than taking birth control (hormones) instead of requiring condoms, to make sex better for a mate? Also, this column is half about people doing weird shit to get off. I don't think that's surprising... like Romeo and Juliet illustrated... sex and romance is really fucking important and what may be stupid unnecessary shit to you may be a life saving sense of fulfillment to someone else.

So I hope you agree that if it's not offensive to say "you might want to come out" to people primarily attracted to SS. Then it's not offensive to say "you might want to transition" to people primarily attracted to straight SS or gay OS. "Social stigma" is something to fight (or save for actual harmful behaviors), that's not a reason to give up on what you want.
"Averse," not "adverse." I'm sorry, but it's something of a pet peeve and Dan usually has lovely writing…

I love watching man-on-man sex

I don't think she cares about the orientation of the men she's watching.

She just wants to watch, conveniently, without the hassle of finding a bi boyfriend who wants to perform for her. Lots of gay/bi/twisted-straight men like to watch too. Watching is a thing that men do in cruising spots and if you go to a cruising spot you expect there to be watchers. She hoped that she would be a "watcher" like all the other watchers, not a specially vile category of "fish." When watching was unsuccessful, she wanted to know what she was doing wrong.

Maybe she already has a performing bi boyfriend and watches porn, and thought she could watch in a park too.