That was a bang-on reply to MEL, Dan. Thank you for shooting that shit down immediately.

For FAITHFUL - if it bothers you that much, maybe it would help to write your husband a letter anytime you're with someone else....and then NOT send it. Shred it or burn it or keep it in a random locked box, w/e. Then you have gotten it off your chest like you want, and your husband doesn't have to know like he wants.

Fem... even if you think of your gf as a man fucking you with a dick and even if you think of doing it with men, these are all just fantasies, kinky ones maybe. Doing it with a dick bearing person who identifies as a man IS bi behavior. Doing it with a dick bearing person who is gender fluid is greay area and doing it with a transwoman with a dick is banging a woman.

MEL, i had a next door neighbor while I was in grad school who was pursuing her degree in social work and did stripping. The only thing odd about her was her willingness to flash me at crucial points in our backgammon games, and how said behavior destroyed my ability to concentrate on the backgammon. I am sure she provided incredible services to her clients.... both in the strip club and in her social work because she was that type of person.

MEL: "My dear young friend has recently started being a stripper for work. And I would much prefer that she started being a teacher for work, or being an accountant for work, or being a certified nursing assistant for work. Because then she wouldn't get to the point where she forgets that there actually are nice humans out there. Like me. I'm a nice human! Wanting to push my face in her boobs doesn't mean I'm not nice! Why will she strip for those losers and not me! I'm right here! Ugh!!!"

@5: Either way the person doesn't sound like a friend that respects her.

LEZIE needs to realize that creeps don't care if a person says they're married, wearing a ring, or what. Decent people won't need the lie, shitty people will get you talking to them, because you'll talk to them still. Just don't. Ask the bartender to get them bounced if they continue. The PUAs or whatever have their gimmicks and take "no" of all varieties as a challenge.

LEZIE-- If you're truly afraid for your safety, anything goes. If you truly have reason to think a creep is going to attack you, then you have permission to say anything to get yourself to a safer place. Say your police officer husband will be home any minute or that you're armed and dangerous. Under the circumstances when you really have reason to be afraid, then you may say you're a lesbian if you think that will work, but why would it work? A true creep would likely be all the more turned on and ready to rape.

If you're just trying to avoid an awkward situation as when a guy asks you out and for some strange reason you're uncomfortable about turning him down with a plain no ... wait, why go further than why don't you turn him down with a plain no. He might try to convince you to change your mind, but that's merely awkward, not dangerous. Telling him you're not into men would probably work, but why do it when you could just say no. To save his feelings? I assure you his self esteem can handle the blow. You might have to tell him no a few times and somewhat emphatically. All the same no is a good excuse. Pretending to be a lesbian when he probably can figure out that at least some of the women who pretend to be lesbians aren't might not be immoral, but it is stupid.

LEZIE: please just say no thank you I'm involved with someone. If the guy persists and turns creepy please do what Dan's friend said and treat them like the animals they are! Sorry being hit on bothers you but it's how men find partners. It's genetics. I'd gladly trade you my manly burden of being psychically hurt when my respectful queries result in a no. The glass should always be half full, but many times the bottom half of the glass is hidden from view. Best wishes!

#8 Sorry, sir, but it's not "genetics". There is a lot to unpack about why men behave towards women as they do, and vice versa, but let's leave the biological determinism out of sexual harassment. That shit don't fly around here.

Jorge are you kidding? There's is nothing wrong with hitting on someone. Hitting on someone in the context described in the letter might have been creepy or not- we don't know and she didn't really say. Also, it's a pretty good idea to pay attention to body language if you are alone with a woman and see if she shows any indication that she is interested in you. If she's obviously just trying to give you water then get you on your way, don't linger and hit on her- it's weird.Or maybe they had some chemistry and the dude thought it would be worth a try to ask her out. Nothing wrong with that, and I don't get the sense from the letter that she was offended- just that she wanted to express her disinterest without hurting his feelings or being awkward. But it's your weirdo "manly burden" crap that I'm calling you on. In fact, I suspect you are joking?? Yes, what a great risk you take- you might be rejected! OMG, this could even possibly cause awkwardness or (gasp!) embarrassment! Aside from the very obvious fact that women face the exact same situation when they hit on men too, you do realize that you just literally repeated the old cliche of "men are afraid women will embarrass them; women are afraid men will kill them" right? Surely you aren't so unaware? A strange man hitting on you when you are alone and vulnerable. He could rape you. You decline him in the wrong way and he could fucking kill you. And yes, that happens. But oh, let's trade burdens. Genetics, egads.

Also, why in the world should she have to say she's involved with someone at all? Why not just say "I'm not interested"? It's because she doesn't want to psychically hurt you because 1) she's probably a nice person and 2) you might freak out if your ego and manliness is tied up in getting dates and fucking kill her for the psychic hurt.

If you are joking, then sorry. I couldn't tell and generally I'm not known for my sense of humor.

Fichu, sometimes men are persistent, and yes while it's awkward and not dangerous, it is annoying and it gets old having the same conversations. And while most of the time, it's not dangerous, if you are alone with a man and he becomes persistent, you really have no way of knowing whether or not it is going to become dangerous. Better to err on the side of caution. And finally, yes sometimes men become violent when they are rejected though this is very rare. More frequently (but still rarely) men become insulting when you reject them. Again, when you are in a vulnerable situation with a man you don't know, it's better to err on the side of caution rather than find out if you have gotten into the very rare situations in which the dude is going to get violent / insulting.

I've personally never pretended to be a lesbian, but I have found that men do not take "I'm not interested" as well as they take "I'm in a relationship". Unless you are really good at rejecting people in a way that is sensitive and polite, saying bluntly that you aren't interested leads to one of three things happens: 1) they ask why 2) they try to make a joke about it that is sort of flirty and whiny at the same time or 3) they feel really embarrassed but want to be respectful and the situation is awkward. So it's just easier to say you are in a relationship.

When you are dealing with someone you actually know or will see again, it's totally different of course. But when it's a total stranger in a situation that could make you vulnerable, it's just easier all around to take the path of least resistance. "Sorry, I'm seeing someone" works just fine.

Also the vast majority of my experiences being hit on as well as hitting on have been positive and respectful. But the very few number of times that they escalated were humiliating and infuriating, and once also TERRIFYING. You only need to experience that once in your life to feel cautious thereafter.

Joining the army or the police force is probably a lot worse for the psyche than being a stripper.

@11: "I've personally never pretended to be a lesbian, but I have found that men do not take "I'm not interested" as well as they take "I'm in a relationship". Unless you are really good at rejecting people in a way that is sensitive and polite, saying bluntly that you aren't interested leads to one of three things happens: 1) they ask why 2) they try to make a joke about it that is sort of flirty and whiny at the same time or 3) they feel really embarrassed but want to be respectful and the situation is awkward. So it's just easier to say you are in a relationship."

They take that as well as they take "I'm not interested", so why not just be honest? They don't care or respect that you're married.

@8: "I'd gladly trade you my manly burden of being psychically hurt when my respectful queries result in a no."

Wow, are you a fragile flower. People will gladly trade your getting rejected for getting threatened, screamed at and stalked.

@1 sax fanatic: Agreed. Congrats for beating me to it--well said regarding Dan's spot on response to MEL.

L1 - Maybe we should just arm all women, and make shooting men for unwanted approaches perfectly legal and rewarded by a positive interview with Mrs Osbourne. Now, if this would not work, it's because soon women would start shooting men for not making wanted approaches and pretending it was the other way around.

*****

LW2 may actually succeed in creating a consensus reaction of LMB among the entire commentariat. (This would have been a really interesting letter to interpret in August.) My cosmic vibrations are suggesting that what's eating him alive is that she is, likely for the first time, feeling herself to have Power Over Men, and perhaps is letting herself enjoy it just a shade more than is strictly good for her character. But he is so thoroughly horrid, and Mr Savage seems such an odd choice of counsel, that the letter seems hardly credible. Maybe the fun part is to see the horseshoe agreement against White Knighting.

*****

LW3's problem is that she is in a monogamous marriage between herself and her mirror and that pesky husband keeps pushing his way in between them. [I chose my best friend and have been suffering ever since] is a grand line, reminiscent of Dr Grant's making himself ill when he fancied the pheasant tough and sent away his plate. Unfortunately, though, [I've started having more open conversations about my feelings and my wants and needs] gives back almost all the points the earlier sentence gained. It's an observation nearly in a class with those of LW2. In fact, I propose that LW3 divorce her husband and marry LW2 at once, and they can have all kinds of conversations about her feelings and her wants and needs. That will surely be just what LW2 and LW3 both adore.

As for her question, my cosmic vibrations are telling me that she wants to rub his nose in it. It's a little reminiscent of how some of Mrs Clinton's True Believers just can't quite resist temptation and have to taunt supporters of Mr Sanders by gloating. (I'm sure the opposite would apply were their situations reversed.)

*****

My instinct is that LW4 is a part of the LBT+ community, but not part of even what passes for the LGBT community. If the others letters insist on all crowding together under one umbrella instead of each having an umbrella to itself, that's their concern, as long as they acknowledge that they were warned they'd get wet.

Re: in handling creeps, I keep thinking about what the amazing Terrence Stamp as Bernice said (in The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert) to a particularly rough lout in (LavaGirl and everybody--please correct me for any misspellings here) Kipperpety, Australia, upon his vulgar invitation to [her] getting fucked, and {Bernice's} punching him in the nuts along with the classic reply:
'There. Now you're fucked.'

Ohhh, Felicia...where the fucking hell are we?

I don't really get why kinky people aren't considered "queer" and why there is so little representation of kinky people in the modern social justice movement. They consider asexuals queer.

Additionally, the line between a cross dressing fetishist and a trans woman is a lot thinner than many believe. There are a ton of trans women who used to think they were "just" cross dressers. This is something which doesn't get a lot of recognition in the trans community, because they look down upon cross dressers as fake women. A lot of them actively bully cross dressers, and accuse each other of being fetishists as an insult. (I'm cis but I know a lot of trans people for some reason).

LW1: Why not just avoid the entire scenario by never again inviting a total stranger into your home, especially when you are there alone? Bringing a pitcher of water out to the yard and chatting with him in a public space would have been just as hospitable. When you asked him in, I think he might have hoped that you had more than just a glass of water in mind. And please understand that I'm not blaming you for creating this situation - but if you are reasonably attractive and converse easily with strangers, and if the worker happened to be socially inept and unaccustomed to being treated like a welcomed house guest by first-time customers, he could have misinterpreted your gracious invitation as a come-on. Sensible precaution, IMHO, is a much better strategy than getting caught on the spot and then pretending to be "not into men." Or waving your arms wildly like he is a bear - I don't get how that accomplishes anything other than using up valuable fight-or-flight energy. But Dan's guest expert says it works in a pinch.

LW2: Have you ever actually visited a strip club, or talked to other strippers? It's not as tawdry as you apparently think it is. In fact, many strippers are able to save up their wages and tips to build a tidy nest-egg for their longer-term life goals, which are probably more along the lines of what you think your friend deserves. Working in a strip club is less stressful than daily life in most parts of New York City, and truly nice people are able to manage either or both without becoming overly jaded - some will develop a harder crust, but they remain soft bread underneath. I think your sweet young friend will survive her strip club stint with stories to tell her children and grandchildren, and with a lot more money to map out her future than she would have gained as a go-fer intern in a corporate office.

LW3: I'm totally with Dan on this one. Especially since you only got hubby's buy-in for this open marriage based on DADT. Your intense desire to tell him about your affair is based partially on your long-term friendship and trust level with him, but also on your desire to brag about your conquest...which could create a world of hurt for a lover who never really wanted to share you in the first place. Do the dude a favor and respect his expressed wishes to be kept in the dark with regards to your extracurricular love life.

LW4: I think you can call yourself whatever makes the most sense to you, and by all means inform and engage your love partner as an accomplice and creative design consultant to help you fulfill your desires, fantasies, and dress-up scenarios. If you are asking whether you count as LGBTQ because you want to take part in Pride celebrations this week, everyone including straight allies are invited - so the answer is "yes." And if you want to go to said celebrations in the clothes you would feel most comfortable wearing, the answer is also "yes."

LEZIE- I see some grey areas. Wonder what the certified organics may have to say.

FAITHFUL may be a bit into show and tell.

FEM sounds like the gf knows and is with you. Make sure to accommodate her needs as well. She deserves it.

TheLastComment @ 18
Thank you!!!

FAITHFUL: One thing that might help if you want to be able to discuss outside dalliances is helping your husband find someone for himself as well. People who feel like they're expected to stay at home while their partner goes out can have a noticeable change of heart when they're able to have date nights as well.

FEM: Is there any reason why these labels matter to you? Do panties only get you off if you happen to get into rainbow club because of it?

We could discuss technicalities, but the two main facts remain. You know what gets you off, and you should keep doing it with interested partners. Also, your support for other people's rights shouldn't be contingent on where you lie on the balkanized map of gender/sexuality issues. With those said, why does it matter what label you have beyond "this works for me"?

@ Fichu

This is why some women try to spare men's feelings and don't "just say no" when we turn them down:

http://abc7chicago.com/news/woman-stabbe…

http://www.theroot.com/articles/news/201…

http://jezebel.com/girl-stabbed-to-death…

These aren't isolated incidents. It's depressingly common for men to react to rejection with violence or threats of violence:

http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com

Here's an article that unpacks it fairly well:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/9329138.h…

MEL starts out referring to the woman taking the stripper job as "a dear young friend", but signs off as "my endangered lady". I wonder if this is a woman he is interested in romantically and/or sexually, and because of that, he prefers she not have a job in a strip club, for reasons such as fear that it might reflect poorly on him, or inability to handle dating someone who strips. If so, better to be honest about how his concern is about his own needs, rather than trying to protect her.

Either way, the use of "my" is a bit skeevy to me. I wonder what she would say about his choice of terms.

Yup, what WWLWBDNIAALBSSFTODH said. "I'm a lesbian" is heard by these creeps as "I'll bring a friend." "I have a boyfriend" works marginally better, because creeps respect what they see as other men's property more than they respect women's free will. "I'm not interested" should suffice, and to be fair most men can in fact take no for an answer, but then there are the Roosh Vs of the world...

Undead @13: You've misread No 11. She says "I'm not interested" is not as effective as "I'm in a relationship." Which has been my experience too. "I'm not interested" leads to "Why not?"s. Fewer -- but not zero -- men try to talk you into breaking up with your boyfriend.

Capricorn @21: LW1: Why not just avoid the entire scenario by never again inviting a total stranger into your home, especially when you are there alone? Bringing a pitcher of water out to the yard and chatting with him in a public space would have been just as hospitable.

Trolling? I hope? What part of the country do you live in? It might have been cold or rainy, and making 95% of decent human beings sit out in a yard in the cold is not a reasonable response to risking having to deal with the 5% of human beings who will overstep the boundaries of hospitality. If "being nice" is banned because "it might send the wrong signal," then for the second time this week I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

FAITHFUL: Get a BFF and tell her all about your extramarital adventures, if you really need to share your joy with someone.

FEM has a kink for genderfuck. But I'd also put him (them?) somewhere on the trans spectrum, given that the cross-dressing isn't just something he does during sexy times, but "recently [he's been] wearing it more and more around the house. It just feels right!" If he feels like he is partly female and enjoys expressing his feminine side, I wouldn't dispute his identifying as genderqueer/genderfluid.

Not that anyone should be disputing anyone's identity, but that's another point.

@13 Umm... I explained in detail how and why I've found it to be better to say I'm in a relationship rather than I'm not interested. And yes, the responses are different, and I gave examples as to how. So I don't get your response that they take it the same way. If you mean internally (their feelings) well, maybe it feels the same to them, but their response to me is different and the subsequent conversation is different. When you reject someone by saying you are in a relationship, they usually say something like "oh, sorry!" and you respond, "no problem!" and it's over. If you can't see why some women prefer that (aside from all that other posters and I have explained regarding legitimate concern for uncommon risks) then I don't know what else to say about it.

@26 Disputing somebody's identity can indeed be fair game.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/16/us/washing…

http://gawker.com/5940947/from-otherkin-…

@28: There's so little chance I'll ever come across someone who "identifies as Sonic the Hedgehog" IRL that the offspring of Tumblr and Deviantart aren't worth my consideration, positive or negative.

LW1: It bothers me when women use either “I’m gay” or “I have a boyfriend” to waylay unwanted suitors. We need to get better at saying “no thanks” and/or “I’m not interested.” And keep saying it, regardless of the question. "I have a boyfriend" just seems another way of saying "I'm already someone's property, and you respect others' property, right?" When what they should be hearing is "I, an individual, a person, am not interested in pursuing this interaction." I know a lot of women will say they are physically afraid to outright reject a man, but the kind of man who will react with some measure of violence to “no thanks” is also going to react with some measure of violence to “I’m gay,” don’t you think? Perhaps even worse, because now he thinks he actually simply has to overcome the “competition.”

LW1, just want to echo @19...please, please, the takeaway from this is "don't invite relative strangers into your house." It's basic safety. You can be perfectly hospitable and pleasant by bringing a drink out and chatting in the driveway. And if someone you hardly know is trying to ascertain if you live alone...the answer is an unambiguous no.

@30
I think the gay comparison is accurate but for a different reason. The misogynists tend to also be the homophobes, and for a similar reason- their sense of manliness is tied up in their identity as straight dudes who get women. Yes I agree with everything you said in theory. But it is true that you can limit your risk in actual personal practice - and it's not just about risk. It's also about prolonging an awkward or annoying experience.

To continue your analogy, consider gay dudes. I suspect there are times when they are vulnerable (say, a gay dude by himself in a rural conservative place after dark around strangers who appear pretty macho) when many of them would avoid direct conversations about being gay if possible. The majority of rural conservative macho guys are not going to be violent (though it's legitimate to consider the risk), but there are much higher chances that the conversation is going to be unpleasant or humiliating or verbally aggressive. It's up to individuals to consider what they need to do to make themselves feel comfortable and to safeguard against their own risks.

I'd bet that aggressive guys tend not to care so much about lesbians as it doesn't threaten their masculinity. (That's the domain of conservative Christians, which is a whole other can of worms.) But I'm not sure since I've never claimed to be a lesbian. But yes, I have claimed to be in a relationship - or even when I was younger- on my way to meet my father and/or brother somewhere. Especially when I was a young girl traveling alone in some pretty rough areas. I was constantly telling men at bus stops, on the street, etc that I was on my way to meet my father. Does this contribute to the idea that women should only be respected when viewed as a man's property? Probably. But it also mostly worked to get guys to leave me alone which was my more immediate concern Maybe the compromise would be to be more blunt and direct in situations in which you feel safe?

I'm old enough now that I don't really get hit on so much anymore. I just assume people get all their dates online these days anyway, ha ha.

I'm a...very plausible lesbian in terms of sartorial stereotypes

Have you considered clipping a canister of pepper spray to your wallet chain? A shot of that to the face will cool any man's ardor.

@ 32 - As a gay man, I can say: yes. Avoidance is the best strategy in such situations.

For LEZIE in addition to the play it safe advice already thrown out there. "Lezzie" jokes and porn are pretty popular with many straight guys. So trying to use it as a defense could egg them on and/or invite ridicule. I'm also assuming that the LW is at least reasonably attractive, (why else would she have these advances?), and probably doesn't project much of a sense of lesbianism. Which in turn would make the advance that much more interesting for the guy...

Not excusing jerky guy behavior in any way, but it's not worth adding gas to the fire.

@32: To be perfectly honest, I don't care if it makes me/the woman in this example feel awkward/annoyed. I just don't care. This is an interaction that needs to be moved forward if we are going to start taking each other seriously as equals. I also want to specifically mention the great divide between "feeling awkward" and "feeling threatened." Different advice/behavior for those situations.

@36 Of course they are different. If you don't care, that's fine. But I'm not obliged to regularly put up with annoying and awkward situations because they don't bother you. As for feeling threatened, you often can't tell until you are in it, hence erring on the side of caution. Plus, risk perception is subjective. Again, I'm not obliged to put myself in a situation that I perceive as risky because you may feel safe in the same situation.

All we can do is try to understand and communicate about how people handle these different situations and use that information to be respectful. It's wrong-headed for you to say there is a way that women should behave for the good of all women. I personally never would've invited a total stranger into my house for a glass of water, but I'm not saying this is always the wrong thing to do for everyone.

@35 Because lesbians are unattractive? I'm sure you didn't mean to word it that way.

When I was young, I was pretty regularly hit on by men and women. I'm not an outstanding beauty or anything, just average and fit. Since I've gotten older, I don't get hit on by men anymore but definitely still do by women. I asked a lesbian friend about this once, and she said that upon first impression, I look/talk/walk like a lesbian, but that within minutes of talking with me, that vibe fades away.

I still have no earthly idea what any of that means.

I'm in that happy middle place now where I'm basically invisible to men unless I dress up and really put a lot of effort into my appearance. It's a really nice place to live your life because you are left alone when you want to be but can get attention if you put out some effort and take some chances.

Kylecheez @35: I'm also assuming that the LW is at least reasonably attractive, (why else would she have these advances?)

Because (some) guys hit on anything that moves?

I agree that "I'm a lesbian" could invite ridicule and jokes in addition the possibility of inviting requests to bring a friend. Either way, unlikely to put a guy off.

I wish we could be confident that men would take "No thanks" or "I'm not interested" as a final answer rather than a challenge. But we never know who will and who won't. I can't blame anyone for trying to play it safe.

@38 My answer was in the context of a douchey/jerky guy that @39 "hit on anything that moves," and doesn't like taking no for an answer. Yes, I've known more than a few. From their perspective, an attractive girl that blurts out, "but I'm a lesbian," is just going to encourage them further.

Again, not excusing bad behavior.

@40: Or "I have a boyfriend", showing the ring, even having the boyfriend/husband right nearby doesn't seem to dissuade ther creeps (which are ostensibly the ones the lies are targeting.)

Like they expect to take anyone home to begin with...

@37 Blahblahblah, yes, nothing I say forces anyone to do anything, it’s my opinion, blahblahblah, god I hate having to say this every time I express a thought, fucking internet.

I'm five feet tall. My husband at 5/6 outweighs me by nearly 100 lbs. My first husband, 6/2, was a foot taller than me and also outweighed me at about 100 lbs. BTW, on the soccer field? My nickname is Tank. I am no shrinking violet. I am actually the team enforcer if people are getting way too physical.

However,

>>>> I will use whatever underhanded dirty lying method, from claiming to be a lesbian (although I never found that worked) to saying my husband is a MMA fighter (lie, although he has a punch) to a crack shot (true), if I feel personally threatened by a man or if a man won't take no.

One guy engaged in stalkerish behavior, after I told him I was engaged, including finding me at my work. My now husband happened to work in the same (mega giant company with multiple locations in our metro area) and one of his friends happened to work in the same building as that guy. This friend was a former NCAA football player and well over six feet and massive. My now husband sent him to "introduce himself" (no threat, just hey, I'm so and so, I hear you met my fiancee) to this stalker type. Guy never bothered me again.

I'm not a good feminist, I didn't fight my own battles. Yeah, whatever. I'd call the police because they have guns if I feel physically out matched and threatened. The day men (not all, some) stop using physical intimidation on women is the day I stop worrying about using the brains god gave me to balance the score board and get the heck out of there.

Long-time lurker here, but MEL's hand-wringing was too much for me to resist. I'm going to make a few leaps here, but after 5 years dancing I feel like I already know LW. How quaint. I'm guessing straight male (you didn't specify) and that you're not *really* this girl's friend. Right? You want in her pants, which is all fine and well, she's young and attractive. But you don't respect her agency and ability to make her own adult decisions, do you? Man, guys like you came in to the club every night. At least one girl every shift had to deal with the talker who didn't tip, constantly demeaning our jobs while touting what a "nice guy" he is. "I normally don't come to these places" *shows up every week for the next 6 months*. "You're too nice/smart/cool/pretty to be a stripper". Now, as someone who put on my dancing shoes a bit later than most (25) I do wish younger girls would wait a bit longer. Only because saying "no" to the drugs that you're offered every night gets a whole lot easier after you're pre-frontal cortex is fully developed, but there are just as many "nice" people in strip clubs as there are at any job. Same goes for assholes. Same goes for people who believe they're nice, but are complete assholes.
I don't regret my years dancing whatsoever. I was able to afford the life/house/car I wanted, I could travel, I made some fantastic friends and I'm not drowning in debt. If you really do want to be a true friend, encourage her to earn money however she wants, encourage her not to party to the point of it becoming a problem, to set goals and a budget, leave work at work... things you would say to any young person with any job. Otherwise, mind ya bizness.

DarkHorseRising @43,

Yep, totally with you. But it does piss me off when "I don't want to" doesn't register, but "my husband doesn't want me to" does.

BDF @24 no, not trolling. And I do have some familiarity with this topic from the driver's point of view, thanks to one of the many jobs I held in my younger days. The fact is that some customers do invite you into their homes because they're interested in getting to know you better...sometimes they want to get to know you a LOT better. Professional drivers do not typically receive gracious hospitality from their delivery customers for any other reason, so you don't have to worry that you're not being "nice" by not inviting them into your house. If my van broke down in someone's driveway, I'd simply sit inside the vehicle (well-sheltered from the rain, cold, etc.) until help arrived. If the resident wanted to bring me out a water or a coffee I'd be grateful and accept it, but I wouldn't get the vibe that she was interested in me - whereas I would be on the alert for that vibe if she invited me inside, and I would refuse to enter the house if I wasn't interested. I get that LEZIE didn't mean her invitation as a come-on, but from her description of the scene, I'm almost positive that's how the driver interpreted it. Since she was creeped out by what happened, I think it's only sensible that she avoid this type of situation in the future by treating unknown guys who end up in her driveway like unknown guys who end up in her driveway, rather than treating them like unexpected but welcome company.

@23 - MEL sounds like the typical obsessive stalker who has put this girl on a pedestal instead of actually getting to know her. I doubt the problem is that he thinks she won't be good enough for him if she's a stripper and society will look down on him - I'm willing to bet good money that he just doesn't think she's the kind of girl who would want to be a stripper, if she knew what it entailed She's just too naive, and good, and innocent to know the dangers that await her, and he's the only one who can save her! My own former stalker used to do that to me too - insist that I wouldn't do this or that, sometimes after I had *already* done this or that, because I'm "not that kind of girl." Or he would tell me how I felt and insist that he was right, after I told him I was feeling nothing of the sort. These contradictions were brushed off as "stop being stubborn, you just don't want to admit I'm right" and "you're acting like a kid, you don't know what you're doing." He just couldn't reconcile the real me with the fantasy-me he had built up in his mind. I wouldn't be surprised at all if MEL is the same, and that he thinks that she's a dear naive child who doesn't know what she's getting into, when in reality she's enjoying her life and making good money to boot. The image of her being a stripper doesn't tally with his mental image of her being a sweet innocent thing, so he instead pictures her as a silly girl who doesn't realize what a perilous peril she's walking (or dancing) into.

@42 People responding to your posts on the Internet after you responded to their posts on the Internet? Gasp! The horrors! How DO you survive such relentless persecution?

@45, you have it cold, all around. I had the same thought process as well. I knew a dude like this. And no, not really a nice guy.

@46. I agree.

BTW I read that Huff Post article. Wow. Amazing.

Ms Liz @32 - Close, but it doesn't really apply. (By the way, I would not attribute equating being straight/having women with being more macho/masculine as exclusively or even overwhelmingly a male thought, as much as Mr Savage likes to pretend otherwise.) If the conversation is started, it's automatically aggressive and not a purported attempt at a pick-up.

I suppose, though, that it would be a better world if we could carry off the Queen's Response. I refer the assembled company to the scene in Brideshead Revisited in which Anthony Blanche tells Charles Ryder about how Boy Mulcaster and his rowdy friends had threatened to throw him into the fountain. He'd managed to avoid property damage with such replies as, "I may be inverted, but I am not insatiable. Come back when you are alone," and an explanation that, "...if you knew anything of sexual psychology, you would know that nothing would give me keener pleasure than to be manhandled by you meaty boys. It would be an ecstasy of the very naughtiest kind. If any of you wishes to be my partner in joy, come and seize me. If, on the other hand, you simply wish to satisfy some obscure and less easily classified libido and see me bathe, come with me quietly, dear louts, to the fountain." After that, he made a stately progress to the fountain without any of the crowd coming within a yard of him, sported himself within, struck a few attitudes, and, the night being warm, found it refreshing.

Venn @51, bravo for your apt recapitulation of the fountain scene! It's been several decades since I read Brideshead Revisited, but now I shall have to pull it out of the stacks and find a quiet corner where I can savor both the lush writing style and the biting British satire. It's a delightful read, and you have just reminded me of that.

@51: Thank you for that gem of a quote, Mr. Ven. I think I'll need to read BR.

@53: It's kind of adorable how you think that you were able to recognize all the lesbians when you saw them in your youth.

Mx Corn / Ms Cute - Delighted to oblige.

And a bouquet to Nickolas Grace, who not only nailed AB's stammer but who also shone playing a raving heterosexual, Geoffrey Booza Pitt, in The Final Cut (the last part of the real House of Cards)

@48 Jina, I appreciate your input. Very well stated

@53 Hunter, I agree with NoCute. You feel you knew who all the lesbians were by looking at them? Adorbs. Were all the gay men swishing around in pink shirts, too, so you'd know which way their door swings?

The Zoo @56,

Hunter78 is waaay more sophisticated than that. Straight preppies wore pink shirts so that wasn’t reliable. Gay men wore one earring.

Capricornius @47: Interesting, thanks for that perspective. And here I thought the delivery guy had just watched too many bad 70s pornos.

#57 - And Left is Right, right?
Capricornus #47 gives us another winner this week, I hope he keeps posting.
To follow up on what DarkHorse noted, coming from 30+ years of martial arts training, much of it weapons-oriented; the discrepancies (with a very few exceptions) between male and female strength are so glaring that a totally different mindset is needed - a woman letting a strange man in her house is like a man letting an unknown group of other men in. We all want to believe that People Are Nice, and many of them are, but if things go south in that situation you’ve pretty much had it without extreme, possibly fatal or at least permanently disfiguring violence. As one of my instructors noted, a lot of people (men and women) die or are injured through an excess of politeness.
I sometimes have female clients ask me about self-defense moves, and I tell that that as women (and men are often in this same boat) there are a couple moves that’ll discourage someone at a beach BBQ (hammer fist to the boob for women, headbutt to the nose bridge for men) in any situation where you’re alone with a guy who assaults you it’s about deploying/finding weapons, then using them with an aim to getting the hell out.

I wish the world as a whole were different, but it’s often not.

Ms Cummins - I think the one earring came later, possibly with the Sloane Rangers. When straight preppies were wearing pink, the Clone Moustache was in vogue.

MEL - You think you're the only White Knight trying to save this poor, young stripper with a heart of gold? Don't flatter yourself. If she's like most "endangered ladies", she has dozens of "nice guys" trying to rescue her on a weekly basis.

@ 60 - I guess it depends on where you were at the time, but as far as I can remember, the Clone Moustache and the One Earring where concurrent. And I believe, from what older gays told me, that the OE even predates the CM, though it had a much longer run.

BDF @58, LOL. Unlike the 70s "cable guy" porno, my customers and I conversed intelligently in complete sentences, and with our clothes on! Usually that's as far as it went, at least during a first meeting in someone's kitchen. A few of those encounters did result in enjoyable NSA hook-ups, but typically I'd be invited to come back for a longer visit at a mutually convenient time. In the real world, the driver can't just instantly jump into bed with the lovely homeowner, no matter how tempting the offer. I was still on the clock, with many more deliveries to make.

CB @59, thanks! I will keep posting, whenever I have something worthwhile to contribute to the discussion.

Mr Ricardo - East v West strikes again, I suspect. Or perhaps the earring came very late to the Gentile Country Club Set.

@ 64 - Perhaps, indeed. I remember my mom telling me about this custom going as far back as the 50s (her best friend in those days was gay).

EmmaLiz @ 38
“I asked a lesbian friend about this once, and she said that upon first impression, I look/talk/walk like a lesbian, but that within minutes of talking with me, that vibe fades away.”

I started a new job some 15 years ago. One of my new coworkers was a nice, openly gay man who helped me in my first steps. Once I told him I’m “married with children” he looked at me and said with a Mona Lisa smile on his face, “You… married?”

JF @ 44
“So she's made him feel like shit for being a lousy lover by asking for an open relationship. He grants her said open relationship under a simple condition, that she keeps it a secret but that just isn't enough for FAITHFUL is it?”

I also think there is more to just “telling” the husband, and I suspect Venn has eluded to it in one of his earlier posts this week.
It’s not necessarily an evil plot on her side though, possibly something she may not be fully aware of just yet. Being a “whore” may also be related, or not. And it may lead to cuckold, or maybe that’s not what she wants at all.

I’d suggest FAITHFUL check her urge to tell, beyond loving her wonderful spouse and wanting to share some delightful moments with him.
It is also possible the husband will continue to veto any post event reviews, but it is something they may need to look at. Another possibility is for FAITHFUL to find other show and tell venues as long as she maintains her anonymity and husband agrees.

@59. Bingo. I used to spar with men in martial arts. No. contest. What I was taught was basically - okay you will laugh, but this how I framed in my head - I am a ninja. I must hit hard, unexpectedly, and way over the top, and then run the fuck away. No rules. No codes of conduct. I will lie, cheat, and steal if I feel its what I need to do to preserve my safety.

Which makes me sound psycho. I'm not. I'm not paranoid either. I have generally always been treated well by guys with a few exceptions.

@68 Yup. I only once had a truly terrifying encounter that escalated in what would have been assault. When it first started, my immediate response was to fight, and even though I'm athletic and he was fat, old and drunk, he overpowered me absurdly quickly. I was like a toddler. The way I got out of it was by laughing, lying and role playing until I convinced him to go in front of me into another room, then slammed the door FAST and locked it before he realized what had happened. If he'd been sober, it probably wouldn't have worked.

I was talking about this with a friend recently because she told the story of overpowering a man in his car. The car was parked in such a way that she was able to kick him in the chest and push him out- gravity was on her side. She told that story, I told mine, and a third woman who was present said that once she was nearly date-raped. Had been drinking a lot, ended up back at her dorm room, he wouldn't leave. She was really drunk and when he got physically assertive, she shat her pants. Disgusted him and he left. I don't know how well I could shit on demand, but I thought, that's motherfucking brilliant.

Anyway, in my own personal experience, it's easier just to avoid in general. Not that you can always avoid everything, but yes take precautions when you can.

FAITHFUL, you need to take yes for an answer. Have the discrete sexual affairs your loving husband has granted you permission to have so as to make you happy and keep your relationship from ending, under the condition that he doesn't have to know anything whatsoever about the sex you're having outside your relationship.

The only thing you need to think about are all the tell-tale details that might remind him that his wife is occasionally out have sex with other people. So assuming you and your husband are still sexual, do your best to avoid STDs, love bites, markings, pregnancy, etc. as a result of your outside contacts, as well as maintain discrete channels of communications with your lover(s). Doing so will make your husband blissfully unaware of something that he would rather not know, because he has decided that it might/would cause him pain or jealously, and he would rather not deal with those emotions.

Since there is absolutely no reason that you should have to tell him of your outside sexual activities, given your DADT policy and the absence of anything to override your husband's request, keep your stories to yourself. Failing to do so is likely to hurt your husband, and it sounds like he's a decent guy who doesn't deserve to have his wife rubbing her extramarital sex in his face for no good reason.

SublimeAfterglow @ 70
“Since there is absolutely no reason that you should have to tell him…”
You convinced her, yet maybe she still wants to tell others. Would an anonymous blog of some sort, with approved extended DADT or not, be ok?

Someone suggested earlier writing it all and then delete/shred, but I suspect it will take away some key elements from this particular activity.

@71/CMDwannabe: I see no objection to FAITHFUL creating an anonymous Tumblr, blog, or FetLife account through which she can write about her sexual adventures if the sharing these stories satisfies a certain need for her.

I think fair ground rules would include maintaining her anonymity and that of her husband and partners, so that her extramarital affairs remain a discrete activity. But so long as her writing is anonymous and readers cannot know whether her stories are actual fact or merely erotic fiction, I don't think she needs to ask her husband's permission to engage in this activity. FAITHFUL should also be cognizant cover her online tracks as well, so that her husband doesn't easily find her stories on a shared computer or through her browser history.

That said, I understood FAITHFUL to want to discuss these things with her husband as a way of reaffirming his approval of her activities, or perhaps as a way of charging their sex life. If sharing with her husband is really what she wants, than sharing anonymously with others may not resonate with her.

368 DarkHorse - That’s not embarrassing, that’s common sense. At 5’7, 165, I’m solid but not a scary guy, at least not to most bullies. I’ve had excellent training in boxing, by a guy who was trained by the same guy who trained Mike Tyson and Floyd Patterson (Cus D’amato), and (depending who you ask) I hit like a guy much bigger guy, but I’m sure not going to ‘box’ a guy 20+ pounds heavier than me. All that J-Lo ‘Enough’ crap is all my eye.
Rachel McAdams in season 2 of True Detective with her Filipino-inspired knife work is much nearer the mark. Though that wooded dummy she had woulda chewed up a knife, I would have gone for old carpet attached to that body, and/or used a beater knife she could just use up and not worry about.
Back in the late 90’s, I was in e-communication with a guy who’s well known as a reality-based self defense trainer, then and now, and I told him about a time I was in the Crow Bar in DC, which was mostly a biker bar, and a huge guy, arms the size of inner tubes, was mean-mugging me across the room, I distinctly remember him saying “..ain’t he sweet..”
I emailed the trainer, “All I could think to do was to throw my beer in his eyes, hit him across the bridge of his nose with the mug, then run like hell.” And he replied, “That would have been an excellent set of responses.” In his copious writings, this guy often referenced the Viet Cong, and how they had no problem running from an unfair fight.

Unfair circumstances - More than one, they have weapons, he’s a guy and you’re a girl: All bets off. #69, I’m glad you got out OK, but a similar situation would be for a man to have 3-4 other men intent on violating him. We must all make a deal with ourselves what we’re willing to do, if pressed to a certain point.

Ms Horse - Seems quite reasonable.

Mx Wanna - Yes, the post with a section which began with how LW3 IS in a monogamous marriage, just with her mirror instead of her husband. All those talks she's been having that are All About Her, and she has no idea whether he's really on board with the arrangement that she bullied him into. Shades of Boys in the Band and the Hank-and-Larry "agreement". "What agreement? You agreed to your own agreement and then informed me that I agreed to it."

I still want to get LW3 and LW2 together; that would be quite the couple.

@ FAITHFUL - When I've been in an open relationship I've definitely been glad my partner is having a good time out there, I've had good times with other men too, and I've been comfortable with it. But I do NOT want to know any of the details, and I don't want him coming home and burbling about how wonderful some other man was in bed.

This is not "dishonesty" or "keeping secrets from each other" or any of those armchair psychology buzzwords. It's respecting the separation between our relationship and whatever other relationships he's having (or I'm having) elsewhere. For me, that's what I need for my own peace of mind.

So no, don't discuss your exploits with your husband unless at some point he (unprompted) says that he has changed, and now wants to know details. He's made it clear he does not want to know for now, and you need to respect that.

‘No’ doesn’t work:
• undead ayn rand
• MiscKitty
• EmmaLiz
• shefightslikeagirl
• DarkHorseRising

‘No’ only works with reasonable men:
• Fichu
• jorgegeorge1959
• BiDanFan
• SteamedHams

‘No’ works:
• Hunter78

*** *** ***

Hunter78 @72:
“As others have pointed out, "No!" or "I'm not interested" are typically effective”

Venn- while we both see more in LW3 our interpretations differ. She isn’t necessarily so manipulative as you imply, and I found no evidence for “the arrangement that she bullied him into.”
She pretty much followed the guidelines advocated here by most Savagistas.

The real need to tell the husband may be disputed, but also redirected.

Alison-
How about publishing "Mid-Week in Review" from now on?

Capricornius: I might have read more than courtesy into inviting someone in for a beer. Or even a coffee. But water? Seriously, if tap water is all that's on offer, she doesn't fancy you.

LEZIE's inquiry reminds me of a similar unease I have with a strategy of my own. It's not a serious problem. I placed a Christian fish sticker on my car in order to up my "white privilege" to "white Christian privilege" while traveling in the south. I even doubled down by carrying a bible prominently placed on a stack of books in the back seat. It worked...got pulled over in west Texas 10 miles over the limit and the officer let us off with a warning. I think my white middle-aged straight Christian woman impression is much more effective than LEZIE's lesbian impression. I don't worry about offending people who are actually in that category but I do think my ability to "pass" is a little unfair to those who can't. If it were black or Hispanic, I would not speed through Texas, fish sticker or not.
However as single woman living alone, I think there are much better strategies for her situation and the "I'm a lesbian" thing is along the lines of "another man owns me already" and will not be effective in an actually dangerous situation. Not letting a guy in the place to start with is best. If you must, leaving a door open, being on the phone to someone who is coming over soon (or seems to be) or you are on your way to see, e.g. "I'll meet you in 15 as soon as the repair guy from x place is finished here." Like a safe call. (I notice repair guys often show up in pairs...probably for their own protection.) I haven't been hit on in a situation like this in years but I will agree that offering hospitality of any kind can be interpreted as an invitation. Avoiding situations where you are alone with an unknown male is the best initial defensive maneuver. If it's rude not to invite him in or offer a drink, too bad. It's not a social call.

Hunter @83: It seemed apt after YOU deliberately distorted the rest of our words! I would have jumped on that comment if Alison hadn't got there first.
NO, one cannot assume that any man one encounters will be the type that takes "I'm not interested" as a final answer, rather than a challenge. It fails to happen often enough that adopting an alternate strategy of claiming to have a boyfriend is more reliable. How can you possibly have interpreted that as an assertion that "no" or "I'm not interested" are "typically effective"? Your reading comprehension is way off.

cont - You've basically rounded "men who won't take no for an answer" down to zero, or at least statisically insignificant, which was the dead opposite of the point we were all trying to make.
I wonder why you might have chosen to view all of our comments that way. Hmm.

Hunter78 @83,

Let’s posit that 95% of all men would respect “No.”

What do you think that percentage is for the following subsets of men?
• Men who make a sexual offer when no invitation to make one has been extended.
• Men who misinterpret casual friendliness as offers of sex.
• Men who think it’s appropriate to approach strangers sexually when they are alone and vulnerable.
• Men who make sexual offers to adolescents.

These particular subsets of men are the ones who we are talking about. The ones who have already displayed errors in judgement.

Let’s say you’re having a nice chat with someone you’ve just met. You need to go, so you write down your phone number and give it to them, saying how much you’ve enjoyed talking with them and would like to get to know them better. Then you leave. This is tactful, respectful and displays good judgement. Even if they never call you, they are likely to feel just fine about the encounter. This is not what we are talking about. The person you are talking to is unlikely to be distressed, trying to think up ways to make the sexual approach stop and writing to Dan for advice.

Let’s say you’re having a nice chat with... a teenager you have pinned into the window seat on a bus. Or a cutie you are following on the sidewalk. Or someone who can’t leave or be rude because they are being paid to serve you coffee. Or someone who posted a classified ad for a roommate. Or someone half your size, alone in their house during the day in a residential neighbourhood who has offered you a glass of water. You tell them they’ve got a great ass and you’d like to see more of it, and move closer as you wait for their answer.

This is going to have your target thinking frantically about ways to deflect you without getting you upset. You obviously don’t care about them or their feelings. You only care about yourself. What should your target say? “I’d prefer to keep my clothes on right now,” or “I’m already taken”?

If your target opts for the former because it’s true, what do they do if you respond with an invitation to hang out in your van later where they can take their clothes off in private? They can’t easily switch to the latter because it’s an obvious lie. If it were true, they would have led with it.

So they lead with it, whether it’s true or not.

(Personally, I’ve found that “fuck off” works best. If someone is making me uncomfortable it’s okay to be rude.)

Encouraging creeps to think that a woman who is uninterested must be a lesbian is really shitty behavior.

Alison @78
I think I'm definitely in the "no works with reasonable men" camp, and also most men (in my experience) have been very reasonable and respectful. Almost all of my experiences have been positive.

The problem is that one experience with an unreasonable man is terrifying enough to make you cautious (not paranoid, not phobic, but cautious) for the rest of your life because you have no way of knowing who is reasonable and who is not.

I don't know if that changes your distinctions here, but I just wanted to chime in about that.

I can't believe we are even still arguing about this.

Look, most interactions start out as conversations. We aren't talking about people you know here, but situations in which you are interacting with a stranger.

When a guy on a bus or at a cafe or a concert or whatever starts up a conversation with you about the weather/commute/news of the day/etc, it is just weird to respond by saying "I'm not interested in you." I don't think that is socially acceptable or polite for anyone.

But if you respond and keep the conversation going, the guy gets the impression that you are interested. Now you might claim that it's just about friendship, but most of the time it's not. I can talk more about that if you don't believe me- having been both single and young and married and middle aged, I can tell you that if it's only about disinterested friendship, then there is an entirely coincidental and inexplicable correlation between youth/sexual possiblity and the number of men who are interested in making friends.

And I don't even think there is anything wrong with this. If a man is interested in me, and he approaches me and starts up a conversation about some random thing, I feel that this is a respectful AND FRIENDLY AND POSITIVE way for him to "test the waters" and see if I'm interested. If I'm not interested, and my FRIENDLY AND POSITIVE response includes a name-drop mention of "my husband" or "my relationship" or whatever, then I feel that I'm respectfully letting him know that I have no interest in him sexually. This, to me, seems a much better way to handle things than if we all run around being blunt all the time.

Hunter @86: The difference is between the rest of your post and the rest of mine. The rest of my post states, hey, lots of us have this problem. The rest of yours blows off the possibility that this is a problem. I'll quote it, since you've selectively decided to read just one phrase:
"I have a boyfriend" works marginally better, because creeps respect what they see as other men's property more than they respect women's free will. "I'm not interested" should suffice, and to be fair most men can in fact take no for an answer, but then there are the Roosh Vs of the world...

And I would also split the hair that combined "No!" -- emphatic and, some would argue, rude -- from "I'm not interested" -- polite and tactful. Saying "I'm not interested" is not at all equivalent to shouting "No!" In fact, one must frequently escalate from "I'm not interested" to "No!" when the polite rejection fails to get the point across.

We should never have to shout "No!" The fact that we do is evidence that this in fact is a problem. A problem you simply fail to acknowledge.

EmmaLiz @90: I can't believe we are even still arguing about this.

Welcome to the Savage Love board. One obtuse commenter can keep a debate raging for days.

When a guy on a bus or at a cafe or a concert or whatever starts up a conversation with you about the weather/commute/news of the day/etc, it is just weird to respond by saying "I'm not interested in you." I don't think that is socially acceptable or polite for anyone.

Bang on. If someone hasn't directly asked, jumping the gun to "I'm not interested in you" gets you called a stuck-up bitch. While offering a glass of tap water means you're up for a shag. It's unwinnable.

BDF, perhaps you misunderstood what I was trying to say at @47. I never automatically ASSUMED that a customer was up for a shag, only that she liked me enough to invite me in, and further fun was a possibility based on past experiences with customers who had invited me in. If I thought she was interesting (and I was up for the game), I'd say OK and go in. Otherwise I'd say no thanks, and be on my way. I also didn't initiate anything or try to steer the conversation toward sex, I just chatted politely and followed the customer's cues. If I ever caused anyone to feel "cornered" like LEZIE (and I certainly hope I never did), they sure managed to hide it well. But I can understand how this particular driver, perhaps less socially skilled than most, might jump the gun and ask a warm, attractive woman who invited him into her home if she'd be interested in setting up a date sometime, after first establishing that she lived alone (i.e. did not have a live-in lover). We'll never know how he might have responded if she'd said "Thanks, but I'm not interested"...because that's not the response she gave. Most likely he would have left immediately with an abject apology, because again...he's on the clock, and it would be very easy for her to file a complaint with his employer if he continued to pester.

What we DO know that it's risky business to invite a stranger into your home, and as much as we'd all like for the world to be different and for all strangers to be as nice as the people who invite them in - well it's not, and they're not. If you are willing to take that risk, by all means go for it. Maybe you have high confidence in your ability to pick out the good types from the bad ones. But at least stay alert and be prepared to manage the situation, as LEZIE clearly was not. Better for her to never again put herself in a position where she has to blurt out a lie in order to feel reasonably safe in her own house.

Capricornius @47: I didn't misunderstand, I exaggerated for effect.
Even knowing you to the tiny extent that I do from your posts, I can believe that you would be much more likely to correctly read the cues in the situation than LEZIE's courier did. (Cue one: being offered a simple water. My guess is that your flirtatious customers offered something a bit nicer? I certainly would, in the unlikely event.)

We don't know whether this courier would have accepted no for an answer, and we also don't know whether LEZIE felt uncomfortable because he was creepy or whether it was just because he was able to ascertain that she lived alone. Was he misreading cues or was he being inappropriate? No way to tell.

BDF @93, at 9:00 in the morning, very few customers are likely to offer alcohol (and if it had ever occurred, I would have been very quick to say "No Thanks"). Yes, in fact many pleasant encounters did start off with, "It's awfully hot today. You wanna come inside for a glass of ice water?"

Thanks for your compliment re my cue-reading ability. I do try my best to listen carefully, and I watch people's non-verbal actions to assess what they aren't saying in words. But we also don't know LEZIE's role in the conversation leading up to feeling cornered. If she was relaxed and pleasant until he asked if she lived alone, and then suddenly became pensive and maybe a little defensive after admitting that she did, this courier (and I) might have guessed that she had recently broken up with someone, so it was time to strike while the iron was hot! In other words, when I said I "followed the customer's cues," this is a case in which I might have thought "Aha, I get it. She asked me in because she's been lonely ever since her ex moved out. Definitely date-worthy, and I bet if I ask her out, it will help to cheer her up!"

As you say, no way to tell.

@BiDanFan 93: If I offer someone who has been working in or near my home water, I am being not only as courteous as I can be, but under most all circumstances, as flirtatious as I can be without coming off as a lush because they are likely to be around during daytime, and I don't want to offer alcohol or start drinking (or be seen drinking) before at least 5:00 p.m. and because the only beverages I have in my house are water and wine or other types of alcohol, plus ground coffee. If coffee is already made, or I'm about to put a pot up I will always ask any person performing any service around my house, whether inside or out, a cup--never with flirtatious intent--but I wouldn't bother to brew a whole new pot.

@ Everyone: If it is warm, I always offer water. If it is winter, I may offer to make cup of tea. People take me up on the offer about 50% of the time. It's never once resulted in or been interpreted as a come-on.

When I was younger I was hit on aggressively from time to time by men who wouldn't take a polite "no thanks," or "I'm not interested" for an answer. (Btw, I agree with everything Emma Liz said @90 and BiDanFan said @91). If they got persistent to the point of irritating, I learned to get more aggressive in my negative response, but sometimes they scared me, and I was afaid that not only would my assertive "no" not be respected, but that I would anger the guy if I was too aggressive in my demurral and he might react with hurt pride in a way that would hurt me physically. In those cases, I opted for the "absent boyfriend" rejection, because I sensed that thinking I was some other man's property would not only shut things down but would allow him to save face--it wasn't that he was being rejected personally, he was a cool enough dude to respect the rights of another man to his property, whatever. I could get upset that I felt I had to do that, on feminist grounds, but I was also going to be pragmatic, and not let ideology get me maybe raped or beaten. Occasionally, I met men on whom I tried the "I have a boyfriend" who weren't deterred and didn't see that as a real rebuff at all. I don't know if they thought that I was saying, "gosh, I wish I could date you or fuck you because I really dig you, but unfortunately there's this pesky boyfriend standing in my way. If only I wasn't bound by antiquated notions of monogamy" or they just heard it as a challenge for superiority with the mythical boyfriend. Then I had to just get really assertive and hope for the best.

(sigh)

Cap @94: Oh, now I'll have to rescind any compliments I've sent your way *sigh*

we also don't know LEZIE's role in the conversation leading up to feeling cornered.

We pretty much do. She let him in, she gave him some water, she was not being flirtatious.

If she was relaxed and pleasant until he asked if she lived alone, and then suddenly became pensive and maybe a little defensive after admitting that she did, this courier (and I) might have guessed that she had recently broken up with someone

NO NO NO NO. If you deem "no single woman should ever let a stranger into her house" self-evident, then surely you're capable of seeing how obvious it is that a less-than-friendly reaction to "do you live alone?" means "Oh crap, now I've painted a great big VICTIM sign on my forehead." You cannot have it both ways.

Things are simpler here in England. It's the right weather to offer a cup of tea approximately 360 days per year.

People don't have, you know, fruit juice? Soft drinks? Kool-Aid? It's water or nothing? Geez!

Note that while "I'm already taken" can work for me now, though it is no longer an issue, back when I was twelve and I desperately needed to know how to get rid of these guys, "I have a boyfriend" would just lead to leering questions about my sex life.

I took a women's self-defence class when I was seventeen and for the first time in my life was given permission to be rude to a stranger, and told that what these guys were doing to me was not ok. I used "fuck off" a few times after that and pretty much never needed to use it again, because the change in my public self-confidence was that dramatic.

The other revelation was when I was working the late shift as an aide for handicapped adults. I'd often finish after the last metro and end up walking through the red light district to a friend's place instead of going home. I'd be trudging along in big boots and a winter parka and some guy would pull up beside me in a van. "Hey baby, are you dating?" I would say, "No." He would pull away. It was that easy. These guys were looking for a business transaction with a competent adult and weren't going to get pushy with someone who wasn't doing business. Completely different from my experience in nice residential neighbourhoods where someone pulling up next to me in a car was someone trying to con me into having sex with them and was definitely going to get pushy.

Nocute @95, the difference between your examples and LEZIE's experience is that the people working inside or outside your home were specifically hired by you to do that work. In a sense, you have already "invited" them to be there, and it's courteous (though still not expected) to offer them a beverage. In that context, it would be hard to misinterpret your kindness as a come-on. Not so with a courier or driver who randomly shows up in your driveway. In that line of work, most people (if they talk to you at all) will give you a smile and a thanks before you head off for the next delivery. You only get invited in by people who are interested in getting to know you better as a person. It's much easier to regard the offer of a drink and a chat as, well, invitational.

I am very sorry that you and the other women on this thread have had so many negative experiences with men who could not take a civil "no" for an answer. As long as our justice system continues to deliver mere slaps on the wrist for rapists and virtually no penalties at all for sexual harassment, I fear that a certain ugly segment of the male population will continue to believe that a woman saying "no" is just playing hard-to-get.

The abstinence-only sex education programs offered in many US public schools contribute to the problem, since both boys and girls are taught starting in middle school that boys reach a point-of-no-return beyond which they are helpless to stop themselves, and it's up to girls to dress and act in ways that won't tempt the boys to the breaking point. They also teach our kids that it's the girl's responsibility to put the brakes on before the boy gets too excited, even though boys will continue to push for more because that's their nature. Sure sounds to me like an official blessing for Boys Behaving Badly. (And somehow there's nothing in that curriculum about how and why girls can get pretty excited and carried away during make-out sessions, too.) Of course this is all complete rubbish...and extremely harmful to girls and women of all ages, particularly those who have been raped or have experienced near-escapes. Many are made to feel, or have internalized feelings based on what they've been taught, that they wholly or partially brought it on themselves.

Capricornius @99: That makes more sense. In your cases, there was no other reason to invite you in. In LEZIE's, there was. That's the difference between whether you were correct in interpreting these situations as a ploy to get to know you better and why LEZIE's courier was not.

Yes, I hate when non lesbian women put up profiles saying that they are lesbians when they aren't. I love you bisexual and otherwise not lesbian but not straight women. I do however have news for you men don't leave you alone when you say that you are a lesbian because men think that they the be all end all and so they take it as a challenge. By marketing yourself as a lesbian to avoid men you are ignoring the experiences of actual lesbians and that is not sexy. Also, a man should not be determining what is wrong when it comes to lesbians/women. Dan needs to step aside on this and shut his mouth for a moment and refer this person to actual lesbians.

BDF @97, I get the feeling that you are not a big water-drinker. ;^}

Regarding your comments @96, you're still interpreting my comments @94 and earlier the wrong way, so I'll try to clarify. I never claimed that LEZIE might have been flirting, in fact I specifically said that she was only being hospitable - you and I agree about this. I ABHOR the idea that any woman who invites a strange man into her house deserves to get hit on, just as I abhor the idea that women have to be careful how they look and act in public places, lest they draw unwelcome male attention. I think we agree about this also. Finally, I never said that no single woman should ever invite a stranger in - only that she should recognize the inherent risk and be prepared to deal with it.

I've only tried to offer a plausible scenario, based on my own experiences, in which LEZIE's gracious hospitality could have been misinterpreted by the courier. Because most customers, if they chose to interact with him at all, would have brought a pitcher of ice water (or Kool-Aid, if you prefer) out to the van.

BDF our responses crossed. I see your point @100.

@Capricornius 99: Thanks for making that distinction. I had misremembered the reasons for LEZIE's would-be-seducer being there.

My black (ex) female cat has a good trick when her ( ex) male brother comes leaping into her space. She arches her back and hisses.