Making a move for an open-mouth kiss isn't being "touchy-feely" or "flirty." That's really creepy behavior toward your girlfriend's friend, as is hugging someone from behind while planting your lips on them.

The one bright spot on all of this is that this couple is already in counseling, so there is an existing avenue for LW to bring this topic up and a couple's counselor who already knows them both and can be a good independent check for LW about her boyfriend's response.

@1: I imagine that with all partners equally valued, it's just more common to find an opposite-sex partner.

@2: Yup, shitty.

I agree with most but "You'll need to stay in counseling until he pulls through, i.e. until he understands why his behavior was a problem, or until you give up and pull out, CANDID, whichever comes first."

Why not DTMFA if he's trying to gaslight the LW? Maybe he can change, but if he hasn't and continues to lie, he doesn't deserve her time.

@1: She says she's "hetero-amorous", so she's one of the many women who are sexually attracted to other women but only have romantic feelings for men.

Not sure why her sexual identity is relevant, but if his creepy behavior was all from two years ago (and not post-surgery-epiphany) and he owns up to it, seems like this is a solvable problem.

I'd bet it was a transitory blow-out. Dude finds himself out in the world, suddenly completely free of whatever relationship prison his marriage represented, and he just lost his bearings. All these younger women around, all theoretically friending/dating material. He had to get over his intoxication and relearn his (and everyone else's) boundaries. He just went a little crazy for a while. If that's all it was, it's lamentable, but not part of an underlying pattern.

@6: Several of her friends is absolutely a trend. Hopefully he got the better of it, but she deserves an amount of suspicion, it is absolutely in her best interest to reassess his intentions even as she gives him a fair chance at this point. Trying to fool around with several of her friends and makin them feel uncomfortable isn't good-guy behavior?

All the advice and comments to here are level-headed. Where my loons at?

I'm inclined to agree with @6 here. Unless I'm misreading the letter, the friends are reporting stuff from a couple years ago when he was fresh out of his 20 year old marriage. He's going to go a little nuts in that context (and CANDID was very wise to see that he was a little nuts at the time).

Now he's had the opportunity to cool off a little. If he's still acting creepy, then there's a problem. Definitely worth canvassing the friends to find out what his current behavior has been like. If he's still creepy, then DTMFA. If he's not creepy anymore, then Dan's advice is solid.

Oh, one other question: what do the kids think about this guy? What do they think about their mom marrying someone other than their dad? Have they been involved in any of the counseling sessions? That might not be a bad idea. Also, if the guy is still creepy, they might pick up on some stuff that their mom, with her rose-tinted glasses, might not.

I'm not saying they should get a veto over mom's dating life, but they are going to have to live with the guy too. Hopefully he will be good for them as well as for CANDID.

I am in agreement with @6 and @9 here, especially in regard to the unmentioned reaction of the children which should be much more important than the opinion of girlfriends. They shouldn't get a veto over mom's dating life but absolutely they should have some say (if they are old enough to speak) in whether mom marries or moves them in with this guy. IMHO parents should put their children first, especially if there is only one parent. I disagree with the advice to bring this up in counseling and ask him to explain what he was thinking when he did X two years ago. Personally I would have no idea why I did something so trivial years ago if I even remembered it, and I would resent having my relationship put on hold until I came up with the right answer in therapy. It's a little too "say you love Big Brother" for me. Why not just continue to date and observe this guy and put off marriage until LW herself is more confident of him? (I vaguely understand the urge to marry, and it is becoming more popular now that more people can do it....but his proposal is a reaction to the idea of losing her to death. Marriage does not confer immortality, last I checked.) so why go from a happy satisfying dating/not living together situation to a questionable married/living together situation....so that he can feel he is hanging on tighter and she can feel trapped? Status quo looks better to me from here.

I just reread the letter and LW says that one girlfriend mentioned this and that two others agreed with her at the time. That is quite different from three close friends mentioning the same problem independently. Since LW mentioned her rose-colored glasses, it is a good idea to ask friends, independently, what they really think of the guy. But one mention from one friend of something that occurred years ago? If it's a red flag it is certainly faded. (and what if, in therapy, the guy says, who is Susie, I don't remember meeting her at all...is that the benefit of the doubt or more red flag?) frankly I would likely be unable to remember the name/face of someone I met casually years ago unless there were something traumatic about it... Like she stomped his foot and elbowed him in the gut when he grabbed her from behind and said "oops my self defense training kicked in." That would be a good and timely response to unwanted, overly intimate greetings. Not complaining about them two years later to the dude's girlfriend and then expecting her to police his behavior.

Agreed. The "available vibe" was him going "Wa-hey! I'm single again after 20 years of monogamy! Bring on the smorgasbord!" It's a phase the newly freed need to go through post divorce. I hope he has now got it out of his system, but yes, counselling is the place to try to find out.

Sargon @1: What about the two bi boyfriends from a few letters ago who had the oops! threesome with an engaged friend? http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2016/06/…
There was also the bi woman who was married to her female business partner, I recall. It is more rare, not only because of numbers as Ayn @3 says, but because hetero privilege is pervasive.

Brooklyn @6: Who said all the women were younger?

Squidgie @11: "That would be a good and timely response to unwanted, overly intimate greetings. Not complaining about them two years later to the dude's girlfriend and then expecting her to police his behavior."

Wow, blaming the victim much? These creeps rely on the fact that when someone you're not expecting to be creepy puts the creep on, you won't know what to do -- you'll just freeze and hope the behaviour stops, because you've been conditioned "not to make a scene," particularly when the creep involved is someone a good friend is involved with and apparently quite happy with. Good on the friend for having the balls to warn CANDID, even after the fact.

Let's pretend for a moment that this guy was going for an open mouth kiss, that the touchy flirty behavior does make more than one old friend independently uncomfortable (and not just jumping on a now-that-you-mention-it bandwagon), and that the behavior does continue to the present day and isn't in the long past. Is that a deal breaker for CANDID? What is she afraid of? Does she think it means future infidelity? Because it might not. Does she think it means he's going to leave her? I don't know, and it is something to bring up in counseling. One thought is that a man who's actively looking to abandon his wife/girlfriend the moment something better comes along generally isn't that blatant with her friends.

@13 I can see that my comment may have veered into "blaming the victim" territory and for that, I apologize. I intended it more as a "this is a way to shut down creepy behavior in the moment" recommendation than a criticism of the friend. It does seem though that without more evidence, "intelligence gathering" as Dan calls it, putting all this emphasis on one comment from one girlfriend seems like overkill. If with more info, she finds the guy is truly creepy, then dump him. I don't know why this bothers me enough to comment repeatedly. I actually don't think she should marry him at least not without substantially more time and less doubt, so I agree with the spirit of Dan's advice. The substance, though, "he has to respond this way in therapy (to something he may not even remember) or he is out," just rubs me the wrong way. (Is it wrong for me to hope that he might say, "yeah, I stopped sneaking up on women to give them a hug from behind after the last time I did it the woman broke my foot and kneed me in the balls.")

Squidgie: No, it's not wrong, but isn't it better to hope that he might say "I stopped harassing women when I realised harassing women makes them uncomfortable and me a dick"?
In other words, why should it take an incident of violent retaliation for men to stop being dicks?

Canvas friends. If behavior has stopped, let it go. Things have obviously changed in 2 years. Take a hard look at how he relates to your kids.

Donny @17: Has the behaviour changed? How does CANVAS know?

BDF: it shouldn't take "violent retaliation." But a self-defense reaction is not retaliation, it is natural consequences. I am a big believer in natural consequences for learning. Some toddlers will obey "don't touch the hot stove" but those that get burned by the hot stove after they ignored the instruction will remember the lesson and not make tHat mistake again. I think if more men (or inappropriate and creepy people in general) got a good honest reaction to their behavior, they would learn faster and take the lesson to heart. Some people don't have a developed sense of empathy... So "I feel bad when I make someone else feel bad" is not going to occur to them. Getting a "wow, really?" Or a WTf or a stiff arm or being broken up with or getting their foot stomped on might help them develop appropriate boundaries. Maybe not. But in cases where a person feels safe enough to do so, I prefer shutting down inappropriate behavior in the moment it happens. (This is not to blame anyone who doesn't, and I support the girlfriend bringing up the incident even years later when she sees her friend getting back with the guy, that's what a friend should do. But talking to other friends and looking for a possible pattern would be better than accusing, then taking a defensive reaction as guilt, on the basis of one report. Dan escalated one girlfriend to "all her friends" when the girlfriend just said "they all agreed with me." )

@11: They all agreed that they've received similar action? One person was willing to come forth, but how does that delegitimize the concerns of the others?

@19: Reread the letter. Dan quoted the LW who said that one friend came to her had also talked about this to the rest of her good friends and others had encountered the bad touch from him.

@2 @SublimeAfterglow I'm with you.

I'm thinking back to times when I've had random older dudes (friend of a friend, SO of a friend, boss, etc.) go for an open mouth kiss out of the blue...always very, very creepy. IMO, it's closer to molestation than it is to being touchy feely. Flirting would be taking advantage of being newly single. Unsolicited attempts at open mouthed kissing goes beyond flirting, IMO. I would be concerned about that trait in general, not just in relation to whether he has his "available" vibe on.

CANDID, yep - he sure sounds like a touchy-feely, flirty guy to me. Grabbing a casual female acquaintance from behind and kissing her neck - especially a woman who had successfully deflected his big sloppy open-mouth kiss on an earlier occasion - that goes way beyond innocent post-divorce exuberance, in my opinion. I'd call it blatant alpha-male entitlement behavior, bordering on sexual harassment. It's up to you to decide whether that's a deal-breaker for you, especially since you are considering marriage. If you're not the jealous type and you know he's crazy for you, how much do you care that he is likely to hit on other women (including your good friends), sometimes in way-too-touchy ways? If the answer is "a lot," it's definitely an issue for both of you to discuss with the counselor. If not, then just shrug your shoulders and let your friends figure out how they want to deal with him. His sexual aggressiveness - um, sorry, his "flirtiness" - may be the admission fee you will have to pay to keep this intense, fascinating man in your life... because I'm pretty sure he's not likely to change his ways any time soon, even with counseling.

FCL @22, our comments crossed. Jinx!

@23: "that goes way beyond innocent post-divorce exuberance, in my opinion. I'd call it blatant alpha-male entitlement behavior, bordering on sexual harassment."

Yeah, there's a few things at work here. His post-divorce "i'm going to act like i'm available, even though I'm stated as not!" excitement, acting as if everyone else is broadly "available" to him independent of their desires (he wasn't concerned about anyone's reception of the advances), and passively making advances on persons within her close group of friends.

Some people never get over themselves, but hopefully he did/does and can respond maturely to her questions.

Especially as LW gives me not-so-vague traces of Morgan Browne from A Fairly Honourable Defeat, it wouldn't shock me if the Reporting Friend had a touch of Julius King. RF's part in the proceedings is perfectly believable, but I have seen people talk others into redefining their own experiences, and LW, by not checking with the other complainants herself and leaving RF in charge of reporting any present misconduct, is investing a lot of power in one person.

BF does sound extremely unpleasant. Very clever of Mr Savage to suggest such a line of cross-examination, as it seems highly unlikely that BF will be able to recall such specific incidents and his frame of mind during the same, which LW will take as a sign of guilt, which, let us hope, will lead to a dumping, though there is a chance that it could be a dumping for his own good. If the Stoat hasn't reformed, then the dumping will be for her own good. If he has reformed, then a fresh start would be better for him rather than LW's keeping him on probation and leading him around by the nose (though I don't grudge anyone's taking satisfaction in her making him pay for all the counseling). If he's about 75% reformed, then I prescribe my Covenant Marriage Yesterday, because in that case no innocent person deserves either of this pair.

Yes this guy was a douche. So front him about it. Explain, if he hasn't become aware in the meantime, that his behaviour has got you rethinking the future with him.
Some men with women, especially younger women, assume a lot.
At some point he could apologize to these women. Set a precedent.

If I'm reading the timeline right, 2 or so years ago, immediately post-divorce this guy did a couple rather "douchey" things. Since then, he experienced a come-to-Jesus moment and has been on his best behavior since, attending and paying for counseling, etc. I see no mention of the offending behavior resurfacing recently. Not excusing bad behavior, but after 20 years of marriage, it does take a little while to get back in the swing of the dating world, and this guy may have forgotten socially-appropriate touching (as more than a few of my denser male friends have). But it sounds like a course correction was made. if no friends are complaining about recent behavior I'd live & let live. Or if you just have to obsess about it, maybe say something like, "You know, when we were first dating, some of my friends thought you were a little handsy. Sure glad you got over that!" Then judge his response. The one you're looking for, of course, is, "Yeah, I was out of line. Won't be doing that again!"

I'm not weighing in on any changes of heart the guy may have had since he broke up with the lw the first time or since her surgery. But trying to give an open-mouth kiss and coming up behind someone and kissing her isn't something a recently-divorced man who's just regained his freedom does because he's carried away by his newfound-liberty.
A) He did whatever he did deliberately and with full knowledge of how it would be interpreted for whatever reason. Eirther:
(a) he'a a creepy lech who comes on to or assaults women every chance he gets,
or
(b) he has/had the serious hots for that one particular friend and has/had no scruples;
and
B) Two years post-divorce is not "sudden" or "recent" or whatever excuse is being offered for his behavior.

Behavior was seriously bad, but it still is months - maybe years - past, (don't know if alcohol was involved)...not enough facts in evidence to get a clear picture about all factors. Behavior was still bad. Question is, has it happened recently? People do change, especially post-divorce which many people take as a chance to do things differently the second time around. That doesn't happen at the drop of a hat, takes time. So, has this behavior been repeated recently?

@30: Well, she doesn't know that he hasn't done that successfully to another? She only had knowledge from her friends' perspective.

Also doesn't say that she does know (although if she did, that would be something I would certainly think she would have said in the letter.)

@30, 32: Look, DonnyK, I am rooting for these two as much as anyone. I'm an optimist--and gullible and a dupe--who totally believes that people should be given second changes and that most of the time people are good and do right, You could probably call me a naïf and get away with that though I like to think I have a big well-developed bullshit detector running at all times.

@14 "What is she afraid of? Does she think it means future infidelity?"

She had concern for if he may have a nasty character flaw she hadn't seen herself, I read it, rather than a question about fidelity. I wouldn't want a partner of mine doing that to my friends even if we're poly. Heck, even if we're just friends ourselves.

The letter has this along with the "available vibe", though; you could be right that fidelity is a/the concern. But to me what is being described isn't innocent flirting. If he went for a kiss from behind because he knew he wouldn't get it from the front... eww.

So not "something so trivial" @10 to me, and not something he'd have forgotten after two years -- either it was out of character and it embarrassed him afterwards which he would remember, or it was a character trait that he would probably remember changing, "I don't remember those incidents but I realized that what I thought of as playful flattery actually was disturbing women repeatedly."

I would ask the friend to ask the other two friends to talk to me about this. The specifics of what they say could be important.

Maybe I am a irredeemable cynic, but if I was lw, I'd be really concerned if a counselor told me a boyfriend was "enamored" with me.

I also agree with the several comments that recommended bringing the kids into the loop.

I'd err on the side of not marrying a creep.

One other thing that bugs me beyond the unwanted moves, the revival tent born-again plea to get with her along with his general aura of "intensity". I wish that intensity was better described and even without being touched I wonder if that was setting other friends off (to the extent that she understands how women "can be turned off")

Is this guy just performing for an audience? Difficult to determine from here but an overbearing charisma on a willing person (note that it turned her off too when she started dating him) when he finds the right approach could necessarily smokescreen other problems.

Again. Not as smoking gun as the touching, but something still sounds potentially off if that aspect is endemic to his person.

Ms Cute - Obviously anyone whose role model is Miss Marple will be unable to agree with people's being good and doing right most of the time, but "second changes" is an excellent typo. I commend you.

@38: I shouldn't even have bothered to write anything at all, but I'm glad my mistake at least amused someone.

@35 The counselor he's paying for, hmmm...

It def seems like something is off in this relationship, but it could just as easily be both of them.
I do know this- I was in a very, very twisted and abusive and all around bad relationship for several years (4, not 20), and once it finally ended and I was able to get out in the world again (the ex literally would not let me leave the house unless we were going to the store together), I was a total freak. I'd forgotten how to interact with people. I was trying to puzzle my way through on half faded memories and tv anecdotes. And I was never a wallflower-I worked as a bartender for years and I've always had the gift of gab, but after that relationship, I had to start learning appropriate social behavior all over again.

If his marriage was a bad one, it might not have been "recently divorced guy being creepy and slutty," it could have been "confused guy trying to understand an entirely new set of mores and messing up"

Especially since, as people noticed, this behavior seems to have stopped. I don't know that it needs to be brought up in counseling because I don't know that they need to go to counseling, or the altar for that matter. It sounds like she is insecure and making this man bend over backwards to assuage her, which he does with a happy heart, and now that's not enough? She wants to bring up some relatively petty instance 2 years after the fact, why? The girlfriend should have told her when it happened or she should have stfu. The statute of limitations on an almost-open-mouth kiss shouldn't be this long. Something's wrong with this woman. It seems like she values her 1girlfriends vibe and hearsay about others more than her feelings, her kids' feelings and her own therapist.

Seriously, guys, if the fiancée had written in, I'm guessing his side would make this a definite DTMFA situation on her.

I'm with the camp that sees sexual aggression, entitlement, and male power dynamics at play. I'm uncomfortable when this kind of behavior is written off as circumstantial social awkwardness. That's exactly how predators protect themselves/are protected. I also find the qualities of intensity and rapid push for marriage concerning. They line up with the profile of an abusive personality more closely than a socially awkward one. As far as I'm concerned, this puts him "on the spectrum" of power dynamics. Those are remarkably hard to change.

If this guy was so obnoxious in the past, why is the gf bringing it up now? How close is this friend.

@43 I don't see any rush to get married, they've been together for a number of years. I don't see any real sexual aggression ... A year ago he made a couple ill advised moves but hasn't repeated those for a long time. This guy isn't Charlie Manson. Guy made a mistake, but I see nothing about ongoing bad behavior.

As so often happens, this letter serves as a pretty good Rorschach test for many of the commentors.

There's so much room for interpretation and so little real useful information.

Nocute and others seeking a recap, here is some real useful information based on the stated facts - along with a few semi-solid inferences - we can glean from CANDID's letter:

1. She's gaga for him, "head over heels in love," and has been ever since they first hooked up, 3+ years ago. She is fully aware that her infatuation may be blinding her to pitfalls in the relationship, because everything about him seems so AMAZING. She loves the way BF touches her, she loves his "intensity," although she realizes that quality would be off-putting to some women. Hence her letter to Dan.

2. CANDID and BF split amicably around the 2-year mark, when it became clear to both that he "wasn't ready for serious." She was especially concerned about the "available vibe" that he kept putting out while they were dating. She had a sense that he would dump her, "if something better came along."

3. They remained friendly and met for the occasional lunch during the one-year breakup phase.

4. CANDID's emergency surgery made ex-BF realize he actually did love her enough to want to marry her, and "...be with only me for the rest of our lives," so he proposed. (This particular point is reminiscent of many soap opera plots, but I'm trying to suspend disbelief here in order to report objectively.)

5. This will be a third marriage, if it occurs. I think CANDID meant for her lover, but she may have been referring to herself. He was recently divorced when the two of them first met. He is approximately 12 years older than she - a significant age difference at 18 and 30, not so much at 38 and 50. She has two "boys" from previous relationship(s), ages unknown but presumably still minors.

6. CANDID's would-be fiance has fully underwritten and enthusiastically participated in counseling sessions with CANDID for the last six months, after she insisted on joint counseling and at least a year of consideration before she could accept his marriage proposal.

7. The female counselor, whose paying client is CANDID's would-be fiance, told CANDID that the guy is "utterly enamored" with her, and CANDID accepted this as a validation of her instincts telling her he is no longer sending out that "available vibe" to the rest of the female universe.

8. Her friends maintained the oath of silence while CANDID and this man were casually dating, but now that they are talking marriage, one GF has come forward with two fairly shocking reports of being hit on during CANDID's initial 2-year dating phase with this man. She claims that two other GFs had similar negative experiences with CANDID's BF. All bad reports are from back in the initial dating period before the break-up, when CANDID felt BF was putting out his "available vibe." No unpleasant news from GFs during the current dating phase. However, CANDID is aware of yet another instance where she felt BF's flirting went too far, but she addressed it with him in an adult conversation and there have been no repeat performances. Unclear if this last event occurred during the original two-year dating period, or in the six months since they have gotten back together.

9. Unclear whether any or all of these GFs with worries over the marriage were sexually involved with CANDID. I'm trying to figure out why else she would throw in the "bisexual, hetero-amorous" at the beginning of her letter, since this letter is really all about the guy, with only references to long-after-the-fact stories from one GF and purportedly two others.

"However, CANDID is aware of yet another instance where she felt BF's flirting went too far, but she addressed it with him in an adult conversation and there have been no repeat performances. Unclear if this last event occurred during the original two-year dating period, or in the six months since they have gotten back together."

Eeeek, I forgot about that.

"I can think of only one occasion where I thought his flirting went too far. We had an adult conversation about it and I haven't seen any repeats since. And I felt validated when the counselor we were seeing said she could see he was utterly enamored with me."

The way she was phrasing this, it was while they were seeing the therapist, while he supposedly wasn't "putting off his available vibe", and in recent history.

So Jesus, this is how he acts in FRONT of her, where he has still made her friends feel uncomfortable.

@46: Aren't they all? I think persons may deserve a second chance, but the quicker and more convenient the "born-again" turn (combined with her blind spot and his aggressive charisma) the more skeptical I am of a person's lasting change. I know they're both going to therapy together, but it all sounds like this bizarre teenager in-love-with-being-in-love more than him loving her, specifically.

All we have to go on is her fascination with his vibe, which she concedes is off-putting to women (which she suggests is a wider problem where they are bothered by his presence and affect, not just her friends who have received the direct advances.)

"Unclear whether any or all of these GFs with worries over the marriage were sexually involved with CANDID. I'm trying to figure out why else she would throw in the "bisexual, hetero-amorous" at the beginning of her letter, since this letter is really all about the guy, with only references to long-after-the-fact stories from one GF and purportedly two others."

These tossaway lines are red herrings! Nothing related to her story.

Lava @44: I see the friend bringing it up now because CANDID got back together with this guy. From the friend's perspective, CANDID started dating some guy who was creepy, and she hoped CANDID would figure it out and break up. And she did. Problem solved. Whoops, then they got back together, so Friend wanted to make sure CANDID had all the information she needed to accurately judge this guy.

Donny: Even if the behaviour did happen only in the past, how can you argue that CANDID doesn't have a right to bring it up now? She never knew about it before. Perhaps CANDID's boyfriend falsely believes no harm or hurt feelings came from his inappropriate behaviour, and he needs to know that that's not true.

Undead @49: Indeed. A lot of SL letters seem to open by stating a person's gender identity, sexual orientation and/or relationship status even if these facts are not relevant to their problem.

Having the LW's gender saves a million comments trying to decide what it is.
Don't buy that Fan. A real close gf would have alerted the LW either at the time or at the break up.
You guys have made elaborate scenarios out of so little. I can see he could feel a deeper love when she got sick. They did break up before because he was in the available vibe, now he's not.
Bring up the incidents with him and see what he says. Talk it thru. The guy would have been 47, all these young women were around. Three years later, he's 50, the bachelor life has lost its sheen.

Undead @48 and BDF @50: Yes, I mostly agree with your conclusions based on the facts in evidence.

I'll just mention in my role as devil's advocate, though, that an active lesbian FWB relationship might be relevant if the GF felt unfairly jilted or threatened with jilting due to CANDID's overwhelming infatuation with this dude, who is now quite likely to become her husband. Picture a female Iago, torturing CANDID's Othello by making up or exaggerating stories that played directly into her negative mental feedback loop and insecurity over this touchy-feely, "intense" man. An unscrupulous and manipulative frenemy would know just the right buttons to push, and would take full advantage if CANDID told GF how upset she was about the more recent flirting incident.

Not saying that's a likely scenario, but that's how I'd write this letter as a novel to thicken the plot.

In any case, if it were me, I'd ask GF to name the two other friends who had negative experiences, and try to get their stories firsthand - if only to find out exactly what I was up against. But it's possible that despite knowing her potential fiance has a tendency to creep on attractive women, including her inner circle of GFs, CANDID still feels strongly enough about this guy to marry him anyway. Hopefully the counseling will help her determine whether his behavior around women is a relationship deal-breaker for her, or just a minor irritation in an otherwise successful love match. Proof that there's someone out there for everyone.

Thanks, Cap, but I wasn't seeking a recap. I had read the letter several times and I'm pretty clear on the points that matter (I don't think the lw's bisexuality has any impact on the specifics of this letter; it's just by way of introduction. People often feel compelled to lead with their sexual orientation, even when the letter has nothing to do with that. I also don't think the "third time's a charm" reference makes a difference.)

I meant that people are projecting all their own past histories onto this letter or their own points of view and biases. We do this all the time, obviously, but some letters seem to bring it out more than others an this is one of them. So to some readers, the boyfriend is a clueless man who had forgotten how social niceties work after being married for 20 years and was over-stepping a bit, while to some, his actions represent an extra helping of arrogance and male privilege. Some commentors see his behavior as red flags that indicate no relationship should be pursued, no matter how much later, while some see these two examples of regrettable behavior that happened more than two years ago and haven't been repeated and are likely not going to be an ongoing issue. Some see everything, including the bf's reaction to the lw's "urgent surgery" as opportunistic and manipulative; some see this as a nascent abusive relationship.
Some people see his willingness to go to counseling as a good thing or as proof that he's a good guy or willing to change; some see it as an act to gain the lw's trust and rope her in. Some even see the counselor's assessment that he is "utterly enamored" as adolescent and suspect.

This woman trusted her gut the first time that they dated and after their breakup a friend confided, never suspecting that they'd ever get back together, that the guy did indeed do two borderline creepy-to-all-the-way creepy things to her and that two other friends had complained to the first friend that they also didn't like the vibes they got from him. Two years have passed and now the bf seems much more committed. The initial vibe the lw had last time around has disappeared, but she is afraid to trust her gut. They're in counseling together. They are capable of having adult conversations.
Dan's response was on the money. Talk some more.

Lava @51: "Having the LW's gender saves a million comments trying to decide what it is."

I was thinking more of LWs who stated their trans status, but it turned out that being trans wasn't related to their question.

You say "a real close gf would have alerted the LW either at the time or at the break up." CANDID never said this was a "real close" gf. Perhaps this not-so-close acquaintance thought that a closer friend would do the dirty work of cluing CANDID in, but then realised when they reconciled that no close friend had. (Anecdata: One of my friends' husbands perved on me and I didn't rat back to her, because I turned him down decisively, and knew that she was aware of his sleazy nature. In this couple's case, it took 10 years for the sleazy nature to rise from irritation to deal-breaker, but this isn't their letter.)

I used to have a friend who sounds like this guy. He hit on almost every reasonably attractive woman he'd see. He was inappropriate with hugs that lasted too long and kisses. Every time we went to lunch,, and we went weekly for a while, he would flirt with the female server, if she was remotely attractive. It made me super uncomfortable, because he was married and his wife was also a close friend. But he always played it down, saying he was just a flirty guy, saying he didn't mean anything by it, saying he was devoted to his wife, saying the teen girls at the school he worked briefly at had totally misjudged his intent in hugging them because he was just a hugger and they were teen girls for god's sake, and the two pretty women with mental health issues who's cases he managed who said he was inappropriate and tried to hit on them were just misunderstanding his desire to help them because he was always professional and they did have mental health issues after all and when he groped my wife one night going up the stairs behind her he was drunk and just slipped on the stairs and was catching his balance and he would be totally hurt if I thought he would ever disrespect me by doing something like that. Of course, after a few incidences that made his wife uncomfortable, he was more careful around her and she doesn't know to this day that he was having a steady affair with one of her friends all while they were married and he would have sex with nay woman who accepted his advances and enough women did that it was worthwhile to him to take the risk that some woman might be creeped out by his behaviors, and he had so many manipulative defenses.. But he never changed while I knew him.

The last I heard of him, he had found god and married a sweet and innocent evangelical woman and was still on the prowl and even the friend he had the longstanding affair of his first marriage with told him to stop texting her and trying to hook up with her again.

The information provided by LW's girlfriends is valuable, and merits further investigation. If only LW could talk to attractive female servers at his favorite restaurants, attractive women he works with, and so on, she might be able to gauge whether his creepiness was a period of temporary inappropriateness he learned from or, as I fear, he is like my former friend. If so, she should run.

BiDan@50 I never said she shouldn't bring it up. In fact, @28 I suggested a way to bring it up.

Alanmt@55
55
I used to have a friend who sounds like this guy. He hit on almost every reasonably attractive woman he'd see.

Not the same scenario.

Wow, Alan @55. Your former friend sounds like a sociopath, and an ongoing danger to society in his chosen profession as well as to all the women who are drawn to his charismatic flame. No wonder you wised up and cut the ties. Sure hope that isn't the source of the "intensity" that CANDID finds so sexy in her lover.

@ 57 We don't actually know if it's the same scenario or not. Because my ex-friend's wife could have written this letter. After a few incidences, he controlled himself around her, even if he couldn't completely shut off his intensity and his attempts to charm. He acted one way with her and another when he wasn't with her. And she loved him and was willing to accept his explanations for whatever uncommon leakages in his behavior occurred.

This may be a completely different scenario. Or it may be the same, or at least at different points along the same spectrum. She owes it to herself to investigate further find out now.

DK @57, how can you be so sure? CANDID may not know very much (or anything) about what went on during the marriages that preceded her time with BF, and it seems that GF's revelations about highly inappropriate behavior during their first dating period caught her completely unawares. BF may have just gotten very, very good at hiding whatever he needs to hide from his GF-of-the-moment, while ramping up the charm and intensity so she feels like he is totally focused on her, while in fact he is following up with one of his extracurriculars. Or with his dear wife, if it is during one of his married stints.

@53: I think it may also not be an either-or scenario, some of those possibilities you mention can exist at the same time as persons are rather complex.

@57: Perhaps not in degree, but I don't understand why a person has to "be Charles Manson" for their unwanted actions to be disagreeable to those affected by them.

OK, I'll agree that we don't know that it's not the same. But LW doesn't say "Boyfiend is constantly hitting on other women. Boyfriend is an ass. I have reason to believe Boyfriend is up to his old tricks, etc." I hear Ted Bundy was charming, so you never really know. Given the dearth of information, I prefer to look on the bright side and say there is nothing in recent behavior to suggest anything other than a "repentant sinner." Contrary to all the worst-case scenarios that appear here in Savage Loveland, I still think most people are basically decent despite their occasional slip-ups.

Are you reading these comments, CANDID? Care to chime in?

Women do sometimes claim that other friends experienced it too as a way of validating their own claim, i.e.: I didn't imagine it, it happened to other friends too. My guess is, questioned privately, these other two friends may have no clue.

@64: Ah, calling the other friends liars when even the fiancée has seen him do this with her own eyes. That's a new addition to the thread...

Maybe he's trying to follow the advice the Spice Girls gave him? "If you want to be my lover... You gotta get with my friends." LOL but yeah I agree with Dan 100%, he needs to know that what he did was unacceptable and made your friends uncomfortable, and will not be tolerated. Also be aware that your friends may never trust him, and fall into the standard "this guy might be unsafe" defense mechanisms- never be with him alone, never be drunk around him, avoid him if possible (and, depending on their level of discomfort, possibly spending less time with you by extension).

Donny @56: You said @28 "if no friends are complaining about recent behavior I'd live & let live." Yes, you then offered a way to bring it up if she was "obsessed" about it, which is quite a judgmental choice of word. Your clear opinion was that this is no longer something that needs discussing.

Alanmt @59: "He acted one way with her and another when he wasn't with her." Bingo. We don't know if CANDID's fiancé has stopped hitting on other women, or if he's just stopped hitting on women she knows who might report it back to her.

Donny @62: "I prefer to look on the bright side and say there is nothing in recent behavior to suggest anything other than a 'repentant sinner'." Where do you see any repentance? Just because he hasn't repeated his inappropriate behaviour (in her presence at least) doesn't mean he feels his behaviour was wrong; his takeaway could easily have been "I should be more discreet so as not to piss CANDID off."

Undead @65: Inorite? We were missing the "bitches be cray cray" viewpoint, glad this thread is now complete... *headdesk*

and he greeted her on a separate occasion with a hug from behind and a kiss on the neck.

Um, unwanted, uninvited sexual touching is called "sexual assault". Giant waving red flag. Given his age and length of marriage, I can see sexual assault of this variety being normalized for him, so if he since learned it wasn't okay and cut it out, there may be hope for him. But given the confirmation from other friends, this is clearly an internalized pattern for him, so LW should proceed with caution.

@68: I found the LW's "charismatic" boyfriend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTQY1Aw9…

(Hopefully in worse times.)