Savage Love Aug 17, 2016 at 4:00 am

All I Ever Wanted

Joe Newton


TOP - Planned Parenthood! Give your local Planned Parenthood a call about that HPV vaccine. They'll give you the information you need and get you squared away. Good luck!
Theatrical Dan-generally great advice! Some additional stuff if I may:
PFFT (aka LW1)- Unfortunately your struggle with good sex and ltr is a universal phenomenon. I have no advice as I am happily divorced.

LW2 (aka TOP)- thanks for chiming in. You are a living encouraging evidence that older folks are still sexual and are open to trying new things.
Unfortunately you’re also a living discouraging evidence that younger men are so much easier to find than younger women, or women of any age for that matter.
Theatrical Dan seems to agree, at least on the men-finding side of it.

Don’t be so negative and stop snooping around. Another possibility is you having sex with two men, assuming you like the idea.
That said, not all men who take it up their ass to some degree or another like to be dominated or identify as “bitch,” like Theatrical is suggesting.

PFFT: Welcome to the most common problem in the to keep it fresh after the bloom has gone off the rose. It's like the old question, "How do I get to Carnegie Hall?? Practice, practice, practice. DanSavage II is right - you gotta work to "keep it up", but I have a feeling that you might not be wired that way no matter how hard you try. Some people just have short attention spans. You are probably not going to be happy without your fix of "some degree of confusion" so accept that you may never have a long-term relationship, and readjust your sights. For me, I got tired of the constant chase, and the continual cycle of getting to know someone many times can you tell and retell your life story to new partners before you go bonkers? I started to think I should just print my life's details on note cards and hand them to each new woman I was dating to save time and repetition.

But, I'm not you, and you're not me. Do what you gotta do to be happy. Crave confusion if you must, just don't cry about never being able to have stable relationships.

TOP: According to the Center for Disease Control,… "If you are sexually active you can get HPV, and nearly all sexually active people get infected with HPV at some point in their lives. a 65 year-old man, odds are you've already got it. Get tested, 'cause I think getting vaccinated now is probably like closing the barn door once the horse is already out.

PORN: In the "whatever floats your boat"category, and also the "What the hell is the world coming to when people can't even screw without having their nose buried in their phone?" category... If you can be satisfied with a relationship where your partner is so disconnected from you that he needs porn to be able to fuck, I guess I say, "More power to you." If it was me, though, I'd surely say, "Wow! Definitely time to get our asses to a marriage counselor!"
Just noticed that "PFFT" goes especially well with my avatar... :-)
what the hell is up with health care providers refusing to give people the HPV vaccine? It's ONE HUNDRED PERCENT EFFECTIVE. AGAINST CANCER. FFS. do these doctors want people to get cancer? I don't get it.

TOP, keep asking around — Planned Parenthood is an excellent suggestion — until you find a doctor with a brain who will give you the vaccine. And enjoy yourself.
@3 Yes. Too many exclamation points.
I never really understand why all the commenters feel the need to provide their advice to all the letter writers each week. As if someone is writing in and thinking, "I hope Dan prints my letter, especially so I can get all kinds of amature advice from a bunch of armchair advice columnists!" It's not like when you read an interview you then see comments on it from people saying, "Well here are the questions I would have asked."
So did couple #3 actually fuck at some point? Jacking off on her ass and foreplay seem slightly contradictory. He's probably not gay either way but as (the original) Dan says, a man fucking a woman is far from gay even if she touches his butthole.
@8 It's spelled amateur (the squiggly red line is a hint you got it wrong) and we like to discuss and debate the situations among ourselves. It doesn't really matter if the LW ever sees it.
@8 - Dan's (or Dan II, III & IV's) answers are necessarily limited by space and perspective. The Commentariat frequently adds equally valid, and often insightful suggestions and input. We also like stroking and arguing with each other, talking about cats and Volkswagons, flinging silly puns around and eating Brie cheese. If this puzzles you, feel free not to read our pithy witticisms.
re: HPV vaccine. It's true that most sexually active adults will likely have been exposed to one of the strains of HPV during their life, but almost certainly not all of them. The latest version of the HPV vaccine is active against 9 different strains of HPV, and suitable for use in all sexually active adults, regardless of age or history of previous exposure. If given to all young people prior to first sexual experience, this vaccine eliminates more than 90% of cervical cancer, and unfortunately this benefit is lost in older people. However it is still useful in older groups by preventing the symptoms of HPV infection and by reducing transmission of the virus to others.
Thank you Jack @ 8. I don't think you realize some of us have a lot of spare time on our hands and can you think of a better way to spend it than help humanity sort out their problems?
I thought not.
@3&@7. A little respect for a visitor please. A British one.
Hi Dan visitor, don't mind these old men, jealous that you still have enthusiasm for life. !!!!!
Re TOP: I didn't think of him as an inspiring example of an older gentleman getting some and you can too!, but another example of "even this old man doesn't want to be with people over 30 let alone anywhere near his own age".

@8 is the person who responds to the email storm by replying all to say "you are all idiots who hit replied all to tell us not to reply all, for the love of god everybody stop hitting reply all!!!"
@12, DrTom is right HPV vaccine can help at any age if you haven't been exposed to a particular strain, and the 9-valent vaccine is new and improved, and will not be harmful (small risk of side effects always but trivial) even if you have been exposed.

But generally speaking, most healthcare providers will *not* prescribe a vaccine outside of the CDC recommended age ranges, even though it is legal and ethical to do so.

So TOP will likely have to hunt around. When I got HPV vaccine I had to call MANY health care providers before I found one willing to prescribe over-the-age-range. Planned Parenthood is a good suggestion.

TOP also needs to read up on STIs -- cold sores are cause by HSV and the HPV vaccine doesn't help with this. Nor do condoms as herpes can easily be transmitted skin-to-skin even with a condom (something the regular Dan reminds people of).

Also, there are over 20 strains of wart-causing HPV viruses, so even 9-valent HPV vaccine doesn't protect against all of the wart-causing HPV strains. And it may prevent esophageal and rectal cancers, not just cervical cancers.
@ 15 - Maybe he only gets responses from the under 30 crowd.

That's most certainly been my experience ever since my beard turned white 5 or 6 years ago: since then, the only ones who pay attention to me are kids in their 20s looking for a father figure (which annoys me to no end).

Perhaps he's in a similar predicament, but he's too high on feeling desired that he doesn't (yet) mind not having anything else in common with the people he's exploring his sexuality with. It may also suit him for the time being to do it with guys who are also exploring theirs.
"He considers himself straight, since he is attracted only to older men and is only a bottom."

Does anyone think that this sentence makes any sort of sense? Coz it doesn't to me.

A vast improvement over last week's column, though the previous guest did his best. One cannot expect a Wainthropp to know that relationships are more similar to pair sports than to team sports. For them, of course, sex always is a team sport - if they don't start with three, then at least they'll end with three some months later.

L1 - The advice is moderately banal, but really more FTWL than anything else. [non-HA: I am reminded of My So-Called Life and Patty's reaction to the suggestions in Camille's women's magazine for Putting the Spice Back In One's Marriage.] But LW has an advantage here in that she already has a taste for "forbidden" sex acts. The one thing that would sound the death knell for a relationship of hers would be legalization of OS marriage. In a loose paraphrase of Mr Wilde, to deprive people of what they want, give it to them.

L2 - As we all know that Pray Away The Straight doesn't work, LW2 is making up for lost time after decades of devoting himself to his work or perhaps finding out that it really WAS a phase after all, just a remarkably long one. Or perhaps he's really Judy Nelson in parallel time.

[note to Ms Ank - it's possible that (Grand?)Daddy Chasers are all LW2 can get, or at least his best market] I am going to ding LW2 for being a bit selfish and not teaching (G)S2 a little bit about topping. This letter has a bit of a feel of Mr Merrick about it, if memory serves. His characters always seemed to be teaching each other useful things about themselves in the bedroom (and not too many other places, come to think of it). But, apart from that, LW2 has not done (G)S2 any harm.

I am tempted to ding Mr Savage Guest for blurring LW2's appeal in a market that reflects his specialized tastes with the chances available to the general population at LW's age, but that's a minor quibble. [another side note - I am shocked that Ms Lava has not complained that it is impossible for a male at the decrepit age of 65 to be able to satisfy any partner without a constant diet of Viagra]

L3 - LW3 gets a major deduction for inappropriate introduction of the C word - confrontation. So H3 has good taste in porn; that does not merit the C word. LW3 probably deserves to be divorced, but first I'd want to get a sense that H3 deserves better.

I will ding Mr Savage Guest on this one for the conclusion, for which there is only the flimsiest fragment of a hint to justify it - and what a bit of classic YGG.
As to why most healthcare providers won't prescribe HPV vaccine over the CDC recommended age range -- while it is legal and ethical to do so, there is a very tiny possibility of an adverse reaction to any vaccine (and a fairly significant case of stiff muscles and soreness at injection site). And patients sometimes sue or kick up a fuss and they can point to the off-label use (outside of age range / patient population in the FDA trials) as "evidence" the MD was being bad.

And sometimes health insurance won't reimburse outside of recommended age range and patients won't pay back the doc, and the vaccine is quite expensive and the doc doesn't want to have to get hit with it especially in a family practice where they don't make much money.

Medicare might pay the doc $85 for the office visit, and she / he gets stuck $177 a dose for the vaccine if the health insurance doesn't pay and the patient shafts the doc.
Venn @ 19
I agree about the “flimsiest“ conclusion, yet wonder what made it a “classic YGG” gold medalist.

delta- can you elaborate on "patient shafts the doc?"
I think I love you Donny. A woman can't go past a man who makes her laugh.
Venn, another one to be rude to our guest. His theatrical life maybe getting you a little green? In London no less.
I'm sure in the world there are healthy men over 65 who don't need help, Venn. I'm just not willing to bet on it.
We have a DrTom.. I wonder if he's available for consults.
TOP: "with a woman, he has to be the performer"
If your sex buddy can't find a dominant woman, he hasn't been looking.

PORN: If you can rim someone while sucking their cock, that is indeed a talent! You could be making millions!
I'm so glad I never had the misfortune to have sex with someone who considered jacking off onto my arse while looking at porn on his phone "foreplay." I'd consider that "I'm too tired for sex or even a handjob, but here's a cloth, please clean me up after."
Donny @4: "What the hell is the world coming to when people can't even screw without having their nose buried in their phone?" THANK YOU! I'm wondering why she even needs to be there.

Jack @8: It's called entertainment. And a lot of the letter writers DO read the comments. And a lot of the regular and even not-so-regular commenters advise each other. Several opinions are often better than one. What I don't understand is why you're reading the comments. If not additional advice, what were you hoping to find when you clicked on the comments link to an advice column?

Venn @19: How do you know there was no Viagra? I had assumed there probably was. Given that even men half that age find it helpful for penetrating anuses.
PFFT needs to take a leaf out of PORN's book. Odd sex acts with little communication, and secrecy as to at least one partner's motives, keep long relationships interesting. Kids these days with their openness and mutual respect - of course that's going to get dull.
There is no such thing as NSA sex, so many infections. I wonder if there is a fifty plus male Virgin out there for me.

Yes Fan and Donny; hello; not only is he watching porn while having sex with this woman, he's watching gay porn!!
Talk about having it both ways!!!
LW, what were you thinking? If he can't fuck you and give you his full attention, then you guys have a problem imo, and this guy is not owning up to his true nature.
And Venn, our Dan has looked after you this week.. on the daily thread as well.
No contortions necessary.
Scrap that last point Venn. Not on the daily thread. All these Daddy ques got me confused.
@22 I love you too, Lavagirl! Let's have a baby!
Lava @27: Yes, exactly. If this guy is watching gay porn, I think the odds he's 100% straight are pretty much nil. So many mostly-straight bi guys hiding in closets. Imagine if society found male heteroflexibility as hot as it finds female heteroflexibility. I'd love to live in that world.
Ms Fan - I didn't say there necessarily wasn't; I was just referring to Ms Lava's generalization from a few months ago that males over forty (or some figure somewhere in that neighbourhood) are incapable of providing the goods unassisted on a regular basis. Should she wish to change that assertion to encompass only OS males, I have no clear basis for dispute, although, if we are Listening and Believing, the assertion does not, in my lived experience, apply to SS males. [side note - I take "has to be the performer" as a self-imposed restriction, not partner-imposed]


Mx Wanna - [You could go all out and strap one on and dominate him like a bitch!] seems pretty drenched in Eau de YGG to me. "Classic" may well be a weird adjective to apply. I suppose it's perhaps a combination of this being behaviour that everyone right-thinking is expected to cheer when an OS woman does it to an OS man but would be problematic if he treated her that way, and that (although Mr Savage Proper rather shines on the issue), the practice is one on which it's very tricky for an OS man to have "the right" attitude.


Mr Hunter - You missed the comparison. Do you recall the little acronym that some people found rather droll, "GAY = Got Aids Yet?" . What we need here is a way to describe heterosexuality with the acronym GPA, so that the P could equate to Pregnant.
Ms Fan @32 - I'd have thought you'd prefer male homoflexibility.
@8 - no one person in the world has all the knowledge and experience of all of humanity. Even advice columnists have limits to their experience and wisdom, so their advice may not necessarily consider all possibilities. For example, if you've never been in an abusive relationship, you may not recognize a letter writer's situation as one and therefore give faulty advice. The comment section (for this column, at least) often fills that gap, since it is composed of a much broader spectrum of people and experience, so it can supplement the "professional" advice or even offer alternative solutions that may suit the letter writer better.

@25 - perhaps #8 is one of those people who likes to mock people who write to advice columnists, and came to the comment section expecting to find kindred spirits, only to be sadly disappointed.
"This morning, he was jacking off on my arse during foreplay and watching porn on his phone, which is not unusual."


I realize and am totally cool with the fact that everyone is a special snowflake, and mrshorses and I have done our share of freaky shit, but did that strike anyone else as kinda odd?

Using your long-term love as a cumrag? TOTALLY on board with that. Jacking off on them while they're only kindasorta paying attention while you watch whatever random smut gets you off at that moment?

My Creep-O-Meter 2000 just redlined.
jack chandelier @ 8 can skip our collective "need to provide advice to all the letter writers each week" and just read Hunter's weekly reviews. It's all in there anyway.

Venn @ 33
"Eau de YGG " goes a long way. I'm surprised that even a gay man like Theatrical Dan is implying that a man into any kind of anal play must be on the submissive side. Not that there's anything wrong with submissiveness nor anal playfulness. The two can be related. Or not.
You're right that Theatrical's implication that an imminent strapon is on the horizon is way premature at best.
Venn @33: 'I take "has to be the performer" as a self-imposed restriction, not partner-imposed'

Honestly, I'd say bit of column A, bit of column B. My experience as a fucker of straight women is obviously limited, but as a reader of this column, I'm not at all surprised at the concept of straight women commonly topping from the bottom. Earlier this year, I spent some time with a gender-nonconforming cis male who hadn't had sex in two years because women pressuring him to top them in PIV sex made him too uncomfortable. A lot of women do want and expect this, and if this guy's 23, perhaps they're the only sort he's run across yet. (I agree that TOP is unlikely to be the first of his gender for Mr Bottom.)

Venn @34: Why is that? So we could have threesomes AND go shopping? ;)
@6 It's 0% effective against cancer. It's effective against HPV, which is a virus. Yes, the virus is causes cancer in many cases, so maybe I'm being a pedantic asshole here, but I feel like it's an important distinction.
@33 Venn. Gross misrepresentation.
If most males over forty in the west need assistance to get erect, then things are pretty grim. If a man is healthy into his sixties, gay or straight doesn't matter here, I'd assume they don't need medications. Just look around, you see many that age in good health.

Well Donny, hate to break it to you but I'm past making babies. high five?
@ 40 - I agree (that it's an important distinction). A recent study even shed doubt on the belief that HPV actually causes cervical cancer.…

I truly can't tell if this study is credible, but it does confirm the importance of making that distinction.
The internet is pure magic for access to porn but watching porn on one's phone when there is a naked partner right there, doesn't make sense. I get that sometimes help is needed. Close your eyes and let the brain do the work.
@ 43 - If he's watching porn on his phone when his naked partner is right there, it's most probably because the brain is no longer able to do the work on its own.
@20 is right. The big problem is that insurance won't reimburse for someone outside of the recommended age ranges for the vaccine. LW should come with cash in hand to pay up front.

Also, why the focus on the HPV vaccine, which in a man having sex with men is preventative for diseases that are incredibly rare anyway (esophageal and anorectal cancer)? Start with the basics like actually going INTO the clinic for testing for common stuff like chlamydia and gonorrhea.

Lastly: no test for HPV in men, unless you mean anal Paps and anoscopy for immunosuppressed men.
Lava@41 That's OK, it was an imaginary Internet baby anyway.
Ms Lava - Speak only for OS and I shan't disagree. I don't think it's especially SS-atypical in one's late forties to keep up with 19-year-old Mormons, but, if you insist that by such an age the typical OSM needs pills, then my sympathies to the OSW set.


Ms Fan - Highly plausible. I think I was just recalling that, of the bi-acting men I knew, when they had such restrictions, those restrictions were all entirely their own, but then I'm quite prepared to accept that bi men I'd draw were just more likely to have been the bossy kind.

As for the second question, I suppose I had a vague idea you'd feel more like the shortbread and less like the over-boiled greens. (I almost said Brussels sprouts.)
@5 PFFT on, Donny! Aack-oop! Billy and the Boingers rule.
@6 Action Kate: Sadly, the answer is yes--many doctors and insurance companies
not only don't care about preventing patients from getting cancer much less getting over it, but they want themselves and their pharmaceutical pals to get even richer in the unequal process.

I dunno--maybe I've got my back up because I currently have a kidney stone the size of a golf ball and a stint until followup surgery next week. I have had to change healthcare providers because my monthly premium and annual deductible have become insurmountably unfeasible. At least I now have a wonderful new VA PTSD therapist.
What Venn? Whether a man is gay or straight has no baring in this discussion. If a man is in good health, I assume he can have a natural erection into his sixties, maybe longer.
A man of forty needing help would, I hope, be very rare.
I'm not a man, so it's all in my head not my body.

An imaginary internet baby Donny. No noise or nappy changes needed. I like it.
I read about the costs of Drs/ hospitals and drugs in the US, Grizelda, and it is brutal as. Universal healthcare is imperative for a culture to grow strong. Good to hear you've found a good therapist.
venn @33
I take "has to be the performer" as a self-imposed restriction, not partner-imposed

I'd say that it is culture-imposed. By the way, being expected to "perform" with a body part that isn't really under your control can be stressful.
Venn @47: Ah, I wish I could decipher your posts more easily! Do you mean you assumed my taste in men was more in line with men who typically are gay, and my love life would therefore have a pattern of lusting after the unattainable? Good theory, but actually, comparatively few of the guys I've fancied have turned out to be gay.

RE @51: "I'd say that it is culture-imposed." Agreed! It is gender stereotype imposed. At 23 he may not be ready to reject the gender stereotypes and ask women to top him instead.
When will men realise that they can "perform" with their fingers and tongues -- and toys -- too? Perhaps when women get more proactive about asking them to.

This brings me to this article which a friend posted on FB:…
My reaction to which was: So you had sex with a straight guy who didn't get you off before he fucked you, and now you haven't come. Well, let me ask: Whose fault was that? YOU had the power to request an orgasm before he stuck his dick in you, and you didn't. After he's fallen asleep is kind of too late, no? I had a similar experience recently with a straight guy who would have been happy to go from making out to dry humping to PIV to sleep. I could have been in the same position as the author. But no. I went home with this guy because I was horny and wanted release, and if I'd let things progress the way he wanted to, it would have been a total waste of my time. So I used my words. (Before he stuck his dick in.) And despite this man having never gone down on a woman before, surprise! He wanted to fuck, so he accepted my prerequisite for a fuck. And I ended up drifting off to sleep in a state of post-orgasmic bliss, not frustratedly composing blog posts (which, hello, your target audience is highly unlikely to ever read) in my head.

If this author thinks "normal" hetero sex is "boring" and "vaguely dehumanising" then SHE'S doing it wrong.

(Thank you all for indulging my tangent)
I do wholeheartedly agree with her basic premise of "straight people's sex lives would be better if they fucked like queers."
@51 You make a VERY pertinent point. AS I have become "More successful at Living" (getting old) The reliability of my man parts is open to question. I maintain that having one of these "Daddy-Parts" is like living with an unpredictable roommate. For instance:.My Miss N. has a certain position that is her favorite for intimate exercise. For whatever reason, my "roommate" cannot remain tumescent for more than a few minutes in this position and fails to then satisfy miss N. She does not like to be stimulated in another position and usually reluctantly allow the introduction of, say, an electrified substitute. I wish it were not true but, alas, it is as I say.
And furthermore, employing my "roommate" analogy and getting a rant off my chest, I have numerous times been driving my car on long trips and without notice nor reason suddenly my "roommate" wakes up and gets all aroused without any stimulation nor cause.
Believe me, it is not a comfortable situation.
There I am with suddenly ill- fitting underwear and a big distraction in my lap and I am trying to concentrate on traffic whizzing by all around me, and no way to resolve the situation until enough time passes and "things" eventually go back to normal by themselves.
Ok, I am having some brain fog. Can someone please refresh my memory on the difference between topping from the bottom, and using your words to make sure both partners have a satisfactory (or at least, not painful) experience?
sb @54: Another suggestion, what about wearing a sheath when in your partner's preferred position? More intimate than a toy. You still get to fuck her. Trust me, fucking is fun even when the appendage employed can't actually feel anything.
@sb53: Why would you subject your wife to mush dick instead of just taking a viagra or cialis? That makes about as much sense as dying from syphilis instead of getting a shot.

Yes, it's ridiculously expensive and no, it's not likely covered by your health insurance, so order it online from an overseas pharmacies like every other sexually active man your age is doing, it's only a couple of bucks per pill. Or just ask one of your male friends if he could spare one so you can test it out.
@57 tachycardia It seems to be a matter of degree, perception and who's doing the talking.
Mr Registered - Much the same thing, really. I'm perhaps a little less willing than others to assume that people are so helpless in the face of some hostile socialization.
Ms Fan - Nothing that complex, just that you seem to have more of a taste for being the exception than the rule - or, this case, dessert rather than vegetables.
So, the cartoon. Is "yokuboi" a common pun in Japanese? Seems like it would be.
@50 LavaGirl: I am dreading the final bill from the hospital and from the insurance company I'm switching off of, for what still won't be covered. I have to go in for followup surgery next week to break up the stone and remove the stint. I have been told there are programs that can "forgive" high costs---I guess we'll see. My lovely new VA therapist, upon our first session, feels I could be eligible or 100% VA disability. Our next session will be after Labor Day.
@64: Rats! Make that "...eligible for 100% VA disability.."
Anxiety disorders....aren't they fun? Apparently mine had
been festering for 25 years before reaching the explosion
Once I'm over my surgery, my sweet little LoveBeetle and
I are hitting the beach for a few days.

Um......? What happened to my posts @64 and @65?
They couldn't be considered trolling.
O--kay........why do my posts disappear only to suddenly reappear...?
Cyber-gremlins at work?
This is so weird! Is everybody wanting Griz to get awarded the 69 this week?
Okay--ha-ha. Done!
WF @59
Why would you subject your wife to mush dick instead of just taking a viagra or cialis? That makes about as much sense as dying from syphilis instead of getting a shot.

The boner pills aren't without their problems. My experience (with sildenafil = viagra and its variants) is that they work, but get less effective the more you get used to them. So using them all the time might not be a good idea. Also they tend to cause headaches and a "hangover"-like feeling.

I tried Cialis once and it did nothing for me.
AuntieGriz @67: That's been happening to me as well! I refresh, my post is gone, 10 minutes later it's back. Maybe they are doing more proactive screening these days, or it's a technical bug. And speaking of bugs (or Bugs), enjoy your beach trip!

Tachy @57: Wow, I wouldn't have thought "topping from the bottom" and "using one's words" were similar enough concepts to be confused for one another. Let me have a go at explaining what I mean by both:

Using one's words just means communicating one's needs and desires. It has nothing to do with topping or bottoming. It could be "I would like you to spank me," or "I would like to spank you," or "I only come in this position," or "I don't like my hair pulled." Both partners can use their words, ie negotiate. Using one's words is the opposite of expecting one's lover to read one's mind. One can use one's words to ask for what one wants, but be willing to accept a "no" answer.

Topping from the bottom is a term that originated in the BDSM community. Dominants are commonly viewed as being the ones in charge; if a sub is topping from the bottom, they are being the bossy one, making demands of the dominant partner, without consideration for the dominant partner's enjoyment. Topping from the bottom can refer to a submissive person making kinky demands of a vanilla partner, who didn't agree to dom, and suddenly finds themselves expected to do things they have no interest or experience of doing. Topping from the bottom is one-sided, the opposite of negotiation. In a vanilla context, substitute "topping" for Alison's brilliant term "running the fuck." A vanilla woman topping a man from the bottom is demanding that he run the fuck the way she likes it, so in reality, is the one who is calling the shots.

Could demanding oral sex as a prerequisite for PIV be seen as both? Well, is receiving oral sex "bottoming"? I don't see it that way. And in my example, I requested oral sex; I didn't demand it. If he'd said, no, I really am squicked out by that idea, I'd have come up with a Plan B. Which would have probably involved me masturbating while he stimulated my nipples or something, but thankfully, he was keen (and afterwards said he had enjoyed it). So a win for him, a win for me, and a win for all his future partners!
Mush Dick has got to win the phrase award for this week's thread.
Totally unhealthy Fan, but, I have had a fantasy of being in a fetish club where different men go at it with their mouths. I don't see who they are, they don't see me except for my
fanny( pussy), and I get to have a multitude of faceless men's tongues.
@42, that's quite an anti-vaxxer reference. It's even got the support of Peter ("HIV doesn't cause AIDS") Duesberg.
I WISH I had grown up at a time when they had all these wonderful vaccines. Cervical cancer and shingles will pretty much be diseases that future generations only read about, like we do with Polio and small pox.
Oh and HPV causes almost all cases of cervical cancer. And also causes quite a few icky cancers in men.…
Why is TOP fixated on the HPV vaccine? It doesn’t do squat for cold sores (that’s HSV). It’s effective against only some of the many HPV viruses — the ones that cause cervical cancer. It’s expensive. Genital warts are treatable. And he and his partners should be using condoms anyway.

Now HepB vaccine... that one is worth getting.
@ 73 - Thanks for letting me know. I have zero desire to defend that study or website, I just used the fact that there is some opposition in the scientific community to underline the importance of making the distinction put forth @ 40 by smajor82.
Lava @72: I like that fantasy!
Re: Advice to TOP:

Ugh. You didn't even answer his question, which was "how do I prevent cold sores." It's not about HPV at all if he wants to know the answer to that question, as Human Papilloma Virus isn't Herpes Simplex. The other question he had about getting the HPV vaccine is that there's less than a 10% chance he hasn't already had HPV at this stage in his life. Which is why they give it only to the young. Preferably before you even have sex ever, since the risk of catching it skyrockets after you start being sexually active.

Also, there's still no vaccine against Herpes. Your best hope is that your partner knows they have herpes, and they know when they're contagious, which is *only* when they've got an active sore. There's a slight overlap in contagiousness before your sore is visible, but the window for that is measured in hours, since the sores themselves also appear within hours. Beware of what look like pimples in the affected areas.
@75, yeah, sorry if I sounded sarcastic or harsh. I'm just really excited about the possibility of eliminating (most cases of) cervical cancer, and a few other rarer cancers, in the upcoming generation. The only weapon women had before Gardasil was a lifetime of pap smears.
@74, right? He should be more worried about HIV and HepB (like you said). I still think you should get every vaccine that you can though.
Maybe PORN's husband didn't want her to see because he feared she might assume he's gay and make a big fuss about out, while in fact he's just turned on by male on male sex.
PFFT - I know it's not always going to be crazy passion, but how can I sustain amazing sex in a relationship?
I know that when you're tired, stressed, forced apart for awhile, etc... it can be rough on a sex life. Maybe not always crazy passionate, ok. But this boredom you describe sounds pretty extreme to me, that it happens with every relationship, and it sounds like it happens fairly quickly for you. I would conclude that you're hooking up with guys who can't give you what you need, and that's down to your own choices in men... do you communicate what feels good and insist that you get it (or you're not putting out for them either)? In my experience, sex grows BETTER (not more boring) when you hook up with someone who can 1) listen to what you want and 2) has basic sex interests in common; similar thirst for PIV, for oral, for kink, etc.

Trying new stuff helps but the bread and butter is in the growing a great feeling sex life I think. Plus you need to reward good behavior and show intolerance toward bad behavior and communicate your needs... the basic social skills too. It might take some creativity to fit the forbidden factor into a good relationship.. first thoughts are to explicitly, verbally give permission to your partner to push certain boundaries that you have, then give feedback about their attempts. Or you could try to push their boundaries.. it's harder to do the pushing without hurting your partner though so be respectful about it.

TOP - HPV does not cause all warts. The major risk is cervical cancer iirc. Stick to dudes and disclose your history if you hook up with women and you're ethically ok I think.

PORN - Generous lovers aren't your style, are they? I hope you're getting something out of the sex too lol. Maybe you'll get an MMF out of this development. PS there's a difference between bi and gay.
Lava @ 72
This is a selfish, narcissist, and an extremely sexist fantasy.
The fact that others approve of this scenario tells us a thing or two about the matriarchy.
Lava@49 I'm not a man, so it's all in my head not my body.
Er... when women come we need a lot of blood flow to the genitals too, for our own swelling and contractions to happen. I didn't think the blood flow requirement was very different between penises and clitorises. And that doesn't have anything to do with being in a sexy headspace..

I would like to keep track of the best kind of activities for a natural erection in my partner, though, so I'm not too fond of the medication idea. I imagine I'll be able to suck enough blood to the area for a long time yet, at the very least. Variety doesn't require a hard penis to be fun for both either.

@ 78 - You sounded neither sarcastic nor harsh, merely... convinced, I guess would be the right way to put it. And better informed than I am.

But yes, hurrah for eliminating as many types of cancer as possible! (Which, considering my family history, will probably be my cause of death one day.)
@81 What?! It's a fantasy. You get to be selfish, narcissist, and even extremely sexist.
God you boys, it's narcissistic. And yes, I'll cop to a certain sexism, except this situation implies mutual pleasure. A select few would be more than happy to skip all the preliminaries: hi, how are you, blah, blah, blah.
Lava- group cunnilingus aside, when it comes to “happy to skip all the preliminaries” I suspect there are way more than “a select few.”
Also, the situation does not necessarily imply mutual pleasure. At least not in the context of what we often know as “non-reciprocal oral sex.”

I was also about to comment that the no visibility is something that a man is less likely to want, but then it reminded me an account I read awhile ago by someone who went clubbing in NYC during the late 50’s. One place had an ordinary social club at the front, while in the back were some special rooms where people faced each other while standing, separated by some rubber sheet and sleeves, and only one essential hole. They could feel each other through the rubber, but no visual contact.
Just to clarify: it was written by a man, het environment, attended by all ages.

You say there is no pleasure for some hetero men going down on a woman? Like I said, a select few. Those who love to do and those who love to receive. Mutual pleasure as I understand it.
In my fantasy fetish club, there are lots of rooms.
"Wow, I wouldn't have thought "topping from the bottom" and "using one's words" were similar enough concepts to be confused for one another. "

In fairness to tachycardia, I'm intimately familiar with the BDSM usage of "topping from the bottom" and I was also confused by what you meant when you originally said that. And having expanded on what you meant, I think you probably did misuse the term. The core of what you meant, what I assume @57 was missing was this:

"Using one's words is the opposite of expecting one's lover to read one's mind."

While expecting one's lover to read's one mind is frequently a component of "topping from the bottom," the essence of topping from the bottom is claiming you want to be dominated while in actuality maintaining complete control over the experience. Which is super fucking annoying for someone who's interested in more than service topping, especially when the bottom won't acknowledge that that's what they are asking for.

Expecting one's lover to read one's mind occurs at a far greater rate in completely vanilla sex. Topping from the bottom almost requires by definition using one's words to some extent. If it were completely non-verbal, it probably wouldn't register as topping from the bottom. I've never had sex with a woman, but I've listened to a lot of women talk about sex and I've had sex with many a self-proclaimed "submissive" man and I think the basic lack of communication/read my mind! that you're talking about re: women is very different from topping from the bottom. (With a caveat allowed for dominant men who categorize any assertion of boundaries by a woman as "topping from the bottom," but I think most of the sex those guys have is hypothetical.)
Bi @71 I'm on some meds that cause brain fog. I understand the basic concept of topping from the bottom, but when I started thinking about it the context of *my own* sex life, I got confused. Because while I usually like to bottom, things have gotten to where if they aren't done a specific way, they don't happen at all. Not out of bossiness, but because I am being GGG and accommodating him even with vanilla sex. It doesn't have to be mutually pleasurable, but if something is uncomfortable or downright painful, and he doesn't follow plainly stated instructions to fix it, then the action stops right there. Non-negotiable. It usually isn't an issue, since less than ideal sex for him is better than no sex, but it got me thinking that maybe there is a gray area between communication and running the fuck, or maybe topping from the bottom from necessity even though he is the one taking the initiative.
Lava @ 89
Mutual indeed, yet a similar reverse gender scenario may encounter some criticism and is likely to be presented in a more apologetic manner compared with your “mutual pleasure” assertion.
Is this because it's reverse month CMD. That why you won't let this go? I'm sure a reverse gender situation would attract a select few of women.
Apologetic, I don't see why. And I coped some criticism , from you, so there you go.
Just a fantasy CMD, I don't imagine a Pussy Licking Room really exists in the real world anywhere.
I don't imagine a Pussy Licking Room really exists in the real world anywhere.,

If they dont, they should.
@71 BiDanFan: Thank you for responding. So I guess it's a techno-glitch, then. I am comforted in knowing that I'm not alone in dealing with cyber-gremlins. I guess I'd better remember not to post after midnight.
I'll have to see how I am post-followup surgery--and what my ensuing painkillers are before safely and legally driving again. My beloved, incredibly patient VW and I are planning our getaway for sometime next month after Labor Day. The San Juans beckon us.

Fantasies......I'll have to get back to everybody on that one. I take it that Brad Pitt doesn't count this time.
Lava @ 95
In the spirit of reverse: a man has expressed his wish for a group of faceless women who can’t see him either, all cued up to give him head one after the other. Needless to say, they all enjoy non-reciprocal oral sex.

DK @ 96
They do exist, but that’s not the point.

I take it you haven’t been trawling the M4W ads lately. As I recall they are chock full of men desperate to eat pussy, any pussy, no reciprocation required. LavaGirl could talk to her local dungeon about setting up such a party and it would fill up with male volunteers before the women’s guest list filled up.
Do they exist CMD. A room where women are hidden behind curtains and cloth, her fanny( pussy) glistening and that is all that is showing.. Even their legs are nicely hidden. The men walking into these rooms, sit down in front of the fanny of their choice and bobs your uncle. They stay a few minutes or so, then move to the next one. Of course some, like mine, are clean as but unshaven. Choices. Choices. Where does this room exist? I could go and die there..
What was the question again?
Oh; reciprocal. Yes, that's right. In this room for those guys no one is sucking their cock. You are very observant CMD.
Another sort or reciprocal is going on; they each are experiencing pleasure.
Alison @99: In my experience, at least some of those men may be presenting themselves as altruistic pussy lickers in order to get their feet in the door. And then after the woman is satisfied, they attempt to get the blowjob or fuck they wanted but didn't mention in the ad. Yes, some blokes are happy just to give; but remember... we are talking about blokes here.
I can't believe an anonymous pussy licking fantasy is at all controversial. Add me to the pile of women who have this fantasy. It's essentially a glory hole fantasy. What's so controversial about that? Just that we're talking about anonymous pussies instead of anonymous cocks?
Yes the blue companion was the first thing Miss n requested that I try. My Dr. was ticked that I REQUESTED IT And suggested we get marital counselling. I fired him and got a new Dr and now buy them generically online. They did help for a time but that time is now past.
@58 Thank you! I did employ the sheath technique, even bought a strapon and harness thing in order to offer options of size and color but she chose to take it personally and refused to try. (Those toys are expensive BTW) . We are plugging along though (pardon the pun) .....44 years last Friday.
Blame Tyra Banks?
Lava- check out the possibilities with your local dungeon as Alison suggested, yet take into account BDF’s warning as to the blokey nature of men.

Venn- can you elaborate on Tyra?

Lava- What's "bobs your uncle"?
CMD @108: I would have preferred a pussy licking dark room at the femdom fetish night I attended to the foot licking that was pervasive. Submissive men, forced to orally satisfy women with no hope of reciprocation. Sounds a great substitute for the "couples rooms" that other fetish clubs employ. I was initially surprised this club did not have one, but then realised if it did, men would pester women for sex rather than spankings. Pussy worship dark room could be a thing.

"Bob's your uncle" is slang for "and that's that."

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