Savage Love Aug 23, 2016 at 4:00 am

Had to Get Away


Three solid answers from Designer Dan. I think regular Dan might have worded Answer 3 a little more tactfully, but basically said the same thing.

What I want to know is how regular Dan found his other Dan Savages. LinkedIn trawl? Craigslist?
I'm going out of town in a couple of weeks. Any other Freds Casely willing to fill in for me? Anyone? Hello?
WRT to #3. DTMFA

She's already lied to you, cheated, and won't do hand jobs. Hand jobs. Of all the things that a woman could object to, this is so vanilla it's beyond creamy.

She's gaslighting you big time. She cheated and it's your fault. No, honey. Just no.

If you stay it will get worse.

Also, fyi: you're inadvertently training her to use your desire for hand jobs as a weapon.
I realize letter writer #2 is young, but I thought it was pretty common knowledge that sex toys belong to (and should be funded by) the person they are going to be used on irrespective of who's operating the toy.
TG: If I were a Native woman dating you, and the first thing you told people about our relationship was that it's "mixed" even though that was irrelevant to whatever was being discussed, I'd cheat and fight with you too.

I'd probably still jerk you off, though.

In my experience, upwards of 95% of men enjoy handjobs. If that's a fetish, then so is missionary-position PIV.
40 bucks. That how much a beginner's pegging kit cost on Adam and Eve. Yep, buy your own gear and it's all yours---lovers come and go, but toys can last for a damn long time.
@1 my guess is false alarms on his google alerts
Throw in some dirty talk, and a hand job can be sublime.
She should buy her own harness because it needs to fit her and she should be comfortable in it.

You should buy the dildos because it needs to fit you and you should be comfortable with it in you.

But....... for real dude. You have a wife and you have a girlfriend. That's not easy to accomplish. Wouldn't it be a shame if she dumped you because you were a penny pinching cheap skate?
@5--I had the same thought. Why are either of these people with the other? Vennominon will advise Covenant Marriage Yesterday, I assume.
Also, this Dan was so good I forgot it wasn't our Dan!
DIOGTST-- You've managed to get away from Church and Cultural Shaming to some extent, but they've still to their claws in you to the extent that you can say: "I don't say anything because I don't want to hurt his feelings and because I'm really grateful to him for wanting to be with me and being nice to me."

I wish I could hug you like I wish I could hug my younger self. Imagine the following is said all in caps, then underlined, because the message is big, huge, deserves shouting. Being nice to you is BASIC. It's the beginning point. You deserve at least that much plus more. You don't have to be grateful to people for not throwing you to the ground and kicking you. You should have nice guys lining up for you, and then you choose the one who satisfies you sexually. I don't know where you got this idea (yes, I do, the whole Church and Shame thing- wish I could kick them in the nuts) that you're unworthy of basic kindness.

And this idea that you'll hurt his feelings if you tell him that he can't keep an erection?! First off, he knows. You're trying to convince him that you don't care, that you're satisfied without that. That's a lie. (Apparently Church and Shame taught you that it's okay to lie as long as the lie is in the service of protecting men. What happens to women doesn't matter.) Or maybe you still believe that there's something sinful about enjoying sex so you're getting what you deserve with a man with whom you can't enjoy sex. Bleah. I hate this so much my fingers feel dirty typing the words. Just to be clear: Enjoying sex is wonderful, godly, pure. Men who don't care about your enjoyment deserve to be kicked to the curb.

I'm not saying that there's something terrible about men who can't maintain an erection. If a man has a health problem that's making getting hard difficult, and if that man cares about you, first he goes to a doctor, gets a diagnosis, and does whatever he can to make the problem go away. Next (or maybe he does this first- either way he should do both quick quick quick), he tells you that your sexual satisfaction is vitally important to him and he'll do whatever it takes, maybe pills, maybe sex toys, but he wants to see you writhingly sexually happy. Since he's done neither, do him the favor of breaking up with him. Surely there's someone out there who just wants to be cuddled.

Since I'm here, what's this business about not being good at dating? A date is eating dinner with a man, talking a little about your work and things you enjoy doing for fun, and listening to him do the same. That's it. That's a date. I'd wager you're better at it than you think.
This was super entertaining - I don't think FakeDanSavage would give the exact same advice, but I thought Designer Dan hit a homerun. And yeah, handjobs don't count as a kink or are even kinky.
This was super entertaining - I don't think FakeDanSavage would give the exact same advice, but I thought Designer Dan hit a homerun. #1 - it's okay to break up with someone if you're not that into them - both of you are better off in the long run and 4 months is an appropriate time to figure this out. #3: hand jobs don't count as a kink or even are kinky.
Wow--three steady Dan Savage fill-ins in a row!
And solid advice from all.
LavaGirl and sb53: Thank you and bless you both for emailing me and keeping in touch.
Another Griz Update is coming your way soon.
CMD: Ooops! Sorry!! I meant to include you, too! Hope all is well your way.
PEGGED- I think that since this is your thing you should pay. I’d also suggest going shopping together and see what works for both of you.
It may also turn into an intriguing, fun shopping experience.

Aunt Zelda- all is well on this side of the hill, thanks for asking, hope the same on yours.
Re TC: "When does one just become blatantly ungrateful?"

Honestly? I think humans are born that way.
"I don't say anything because I don't want to hurt his feelings and because I'm really grateful to him for wanting to be with me and being nice to me."

At the rate she's going, LW#1 is going to have her sexual awakening in the retirement home. Fortunately, it's full of experienced and horny men.
First of all, Fine job this week, Faux Dan! Keep the fire burning!

LW1 TDTBW – Here is my constant refrain – everyone sing along with me! Not all relationships are meant to be. Some work out for a while and then fizzle. Some crash and burn. Some die a long agonizing death. Only a special few are meant for the long haul. So cherish those when you find them. But don't waste too much time on the mundane, boring, unfulfilling ones! Move on! LIFE IS SHORT!

LW2 PEGGED – Faux Dan is right, guy. Stick a crowbar in your wallet and buy the damn thing yourself, because 1) You want it, you buy it 2) You get to keep it forevermore and 3) That way you know that girlfriend isn't using on the neighborhood sheep, dogs and hot neighbor guys when you're not around.

LW3 TC – : You get "laid every day for the most part, surprise blowjobs, 69ing and you're bitching because no handjobs? But wait, Yes, now there ARE handjobs? You are a whiny little weasel, and deserve every obnoxious second you spend with your fighting, cheating girlfriend.
I know this is off topic, so please forgive me in advance.
I am SO glad I don't have cable or TV---online propaganda is bad enough!
Is there a way I can effectively dodge the political circus currently happening?
There is no delete button for the crap on Yahoo or anywhere else.
I mean FUCK----how long before the rest of the world builds a wall around the
highly dumbed down, Divided States?

We now return to this week's Savage Love: Had to Get Away.
My beloved and I need to, too.
@22 DonnyKlicious: Yeah--agreed on LW3, TC.
Viagra does weird things.

Stop the toxic masculinity already!!
I think TC's letter is just humblebrag wrapped up in an imaginary problem to justify an answer from Dan.
@ 14 - TC uses the word "fetish", not "kink". A kink is by definition outside the norm, whereas a fetish is merely something you're obsessed with, and can be as innocuous as lingerie... or handjobs.

I'm going to take a different angle on the first letter and inform the assembled company that it's LW1 and not BF1 who's the Trump supporter. Who bails? (Yes; if Karl Rove could go to the gay barbershop he'd been patronizing the day after Shrub's re-election and expect there to be no hard feelings [he was wrong], I'm sure Trump supporters have the chutzpah to continue to consult Mr Savage, perhaps getting some perverse enjoyment out of doing so.)

I'd respond CMY to L1 except for LW's one saving grace, her realization that past paramours cut her an undeserved break. The sense of Mr Savage Guest and at least one poster that LW was entitled to such breaks seems almost, to borrow from Ms Grizelda, toxic.


It may need a little cross-examination to confirm, but my first instinct in response to L3 would probably be CMY, as predicted. My main thought, though, is that it was a little drippy of Mr Savage Holidaying to pass this letter on to Mr Savage Guest when LW specifically hoped for the Real Opinion.

The obvious answer for LW2 is to settle who pays how much with a game of cards, which may also have the side benefit of revealing their basic incompatibilities.
@ 27 - "I'm sure Trump supporters have the chutzpah to continue to consult Mr Savage"

I'm sure the feel entitled to Dan's advice... and to everything else.
"they feel"
LW1 needs to use those in between times for some hookups. Use OKC or Fetlife to meet some guys who seem to have something in common with her, go to dinner and practice having conversations that are part of dating. But don't worry about the dating as an avenue toward a long-term relationship. It's time to get those church and slut shaming a*hole voices out of your head and bring in some of the voices you'll find here in this response section. Set your mind free LW1 and your body will follow. Or set your body free and your mind will follow.
LW1: you have permission to gently and truthfully let this guy go. Nothing in common and the sex isn't happening , so why is this even an issue? Your age perhaps. Your fear that another two years plus might pass before you find a guy who will watch your concerts. And that might be true. Still, no reason to hang about in what sounds like a non relationship anyway.
In my last pegging adventure, I brought the harness I already owned and he provided dildo options that he already owned. I don't remember anymore but I'm pretty sure I paid when I bought the starter kit originally because I already knew I wanted it to stay with me when we broke up.
LW #1 - the sentence that stood out to me was "It feels lonelier than when I was single." That feeling, all by itself, would be a good enough reason to gently let this gentleman go. Dudes in their 40's and above can have difficulties with getting/maintaining erections, and there are plenty of other things to do besides PIV. But if no PIV is a deal breaker, and he's honestly tried at least a couple of solutions to his problem - and they haven't worked - then you've got another solid reason to break up. If he won't try, ditto.

LW #2 - I call humblebrag. So I understand that if you're 26, you may not be flush with cash. I like the solution of her buying the harness that fits/feels good to her, and you buying the dildo that fits/feels good to you.

LW #3 - unsure what relevance her being Native and you being Caucasian has to the matter in hand (pun intended). You guys don't sound happy together. Break up.
@16. AGREED.

LW 1 listen. You don't owe it to this guy to be his urologist and his walking-talking copy of the Karma Sutra because he didn't treat you like crap. Being nice isn't a precious and rare flower, it's BASELINE.

And this guy cares about you but not enough to DO anything about his soft dick. Yes it's not his fault, but it is his fault for not making a doctor's appointment, buying Viagra, or getting a strap-on.

Look he will be hurt but he will get over it. And I agree with Dan that ending things now is far kinder than drawing things out and letting your resentment poison the relationship. If nothing else it might be the kick he needs to either find women who like men and don't want dick, to go to the doctor.
Will Dan find three Danielle Savages for next year?

TDTBW's letter made me sad. Why does she feel she is obligated to stay with someone she barely gets along with either in or out of bed? There is someone more compatible out there for both of them. I'd suggest seeing a therapist to work on her low self-esteem.

Re PEGGED: Actually, Dan3, a good harness and dildo are not cheap. But it was PEGGED's idea, so PEGGED should still spring for it. (I am still a bit miffed at the lover who suggested that we get a really large dildo to peg him with, and then suggested we split the cost -- particularly when he was making three times as much as I was! You want a huge cock, you buy a huge cock, mister.)

TC: Dan advised that "finding a new girl—one who wouldn't cheat on you and would be excited to jump into a relationship AND be down with a little tug—isn't going to be that difficult of a task."
Excuse me?? Finding a new girl who's up for sex "every day for the most part, surprise blowjobs, 69ing, you name it" sounds easy to you??? TC, I'd suggest thanking her profusely for the handjob and rewarding her with something she really likes (sexual or not) to encourage her to do it more often.
I wondered about TC's use of the term "handjob fetish" too. Handjobs are indeed a staple, not a fetish. However, if TC can only come from handjobs, or wants a handjob to finish every time he has sex, he might be justified in calling it a fetish.

For the giver, handjob enjoyment can be extremely variable. Is he circumcised or not? How long does he take? Seriously, spending 15 minutes jacking a cut cock is really not a lot of fun. But yes, one should be GGG enough to do it once in a while, particularly if it's a favourite of one's partner.

Ricardo @25: I think you're right. I wanted to slap him at "just this morning, we went for round two."
@ 36 - "I wanted to slap him at "just this morning, we went for round two.""

Yes, that's precisely the point where I lost all sympathy and started hoping his GF still cheats on him.
BDF@36 I wanted to slap him at "just this morning, we went for round two".

Guess that makes two slaps – count me in! (You go first.)
Mr Ricardo - Of course. And in a Covenant Marriage.
Donny - I'll slap him, then you slap him, then I'll run off with his girlfriend :)
@42 We have a plan!
Ack Thbbbbt! I third the motion!
LW1, Ever hear of Viagra? That might get the ball rolling, so to speak, and after a while, things might continue without chemical enhancement.
This last "not-really-Dan"-Dan Savage is my favorite yet. I would say that he might want to quit the design business, but there's probably more money in that.
DK @ 22
Last week I deployed some of Lava’s own vintage rhetoric which may have been overlooked at first by relative newcomers.
As for this week… I do get the sheep and the dogs, and we also agree he should pay for it. I still can’t imagine the “hot neighbor guys” turning into peggees-wannabees and lining up as such any time soon. And while we heard from some enthusiastics-for-different-reasons peggers on this forum, the gf in question didn't seem THAT interested.

And yet I sense the world is changing, only last Saturday Germany lost on penalty kicks.
in a somewhat related re one and done letter of the day:
3- “Even if she goes ahead and does it, it'll probably be an unsatisfying experience for him.”
I’d also argue that it is the initiator challenge and somewhat responsibility to prove the reluctant participant that they can also get something out of it, whatever “it” it is which may (or may not) develop over time.

As for last week’s 131 “please forgive me all if "transvestite" is no longer considered an acceptable term.”
This works in the context of “born-male presented as a woman who’s a prostitute.”
Rest assured, you did convey your thought in a respectful and well-understood manner. My own issue with it is that transvestite prostitutes and drag queens are often the exclusive association with a born-male presented as a woman person. To be expected to some degree, as traditionally these two were the only forms of somewhat-accepted expressions.
I love my Realdoe, in combination with the Tomboi underwear harness. Together those are about $170 on Amazon. (And, no, I have no relationship with the manufacturers, I just love the products.) But because the Realdoe goes inside me and performs like part of my body, and because the Tomboi is basically underwear, I've always thought of them as mine.

I don't think there's an obvious answer to who should own the pegging gear. If I used my dick on someone else, I'd wash it (just as a guy would wash his dick), so I don't see the big deal. As for who should buy it, well, that's part of a whole relationship economy based on how committed you are to each other, who has more resources, and who is looking for a good gift for the other person, besides considering who wants to keep it after a breakup.…
On using them together:…
I love my Share (similar to EricaP's Realdoe) and I decided that I wanted to buy it because I would be using it with more than one partner.

If the LW is planning to be pegged by different women, he should probably buy it for himself.
LW#1, I too think you should break up with Guy, but not primarily because of his limp dick (though that could be the final straw). Yes, he sounds like a nice guy, but as Fichu said, being nice to you is basic and required; I'm sorry if the men you've been with before haven't been nice to you! The biggest reason I think you should break up is because you have no chemistry. You say you don't have the same political outlook or religious beliefs, which can be a real problem in a relationship if they differ by a lot. You don't share hobbies, although that's something that could be fixed - either by one or both of you getting involved in a hobby the other enjoys (and if neither of you has any interest in at least trying one of each other's hobbies, that's a red flag right there), or by choosing a new hobby for both of you to explore and learn about together. However, it sounds like the two of you just don't click, and after you've given it some time (I think 4 months is plenty) it still isn't happening, all of the good intentions in the world won't fix it.

Are you sexually attracted to him (or would you be, if his dick worked)? Does he make you laugh? Do you look forward to seeing him? I'm guessing no, since you said you feel lonely in the relationship, and conversations feel labored. Believe me, this won't get better with time. You don't owe Guy more time before ditching him, but you do owe him the consideration of not leading him on when he doesn't make you happy. If you're afraid of hurting him, his pain will only be worse the longer you drag it out and allow him to become more attached to and invested in you when you finally do break up (as seems inevitable) - don't waste his time!

When you talk about "trying to have sex", you only mention how you try a lot of things to get and keep him hard, and nothing works. You make no mention of his doing anything to give you pleasure or get you off. If you both think that the only successful way to "have sex" is through PIV, and you both give up doing anything if that doesn't work, no wonder sex is so unfulfilling for you both. I understand that if he never has an orgasm with you that would get very frustrating for him (and you too - I love making my husband come!). But if you both stopped trying for PIV for awhile and were able to just give each other sensual pleasure (and I hope he would at least enjoy getting you off!) things might not be so fraught - but it doesn't sound like he even really tries.

When you do break up, I trust you will do it as kindly and thoughtfully as possible. Don't even mention your frustration with his erectile problems as being a reason (though he is probably acutely aware of his inability to satisfy you). Who knows why he's having this problem (and is it a new problem for him?). It could be a medical issue, psychological, stress, a side effect of a medication, he feels too much pressure to perform, or something else. Yes, he should consult a doctor if he hasn't already. But I suspect that if everything else was great in the relationship, you really cared for him, and felt a spark between you, you would be more willing to try other ways of asking him to satisfy you. So, the real problem is the lack of chemistry and compatibility, and that's what you should talk to him about. Maybe you could even stay casual friends if the sex part of the relationship is off the table (that rarely works, but sometimes it does!). But if he's already feeling inadequate about his sexual ability, making that a reason for the breakup would just make it even less likely he would be sexually successful in his next relationship. Be as kind as you can, and be sure to let him know how much you appreciate the nice things he's done for you and the way he treats you. Have courage, and I'm sure you'll feel relieved once you've extricated yourself from this.
@ 49 - "it is the initiator challenge and somewhat responsibility to prove the reluctant participant that they can also get something out of it, whatever “it” it is"

I guess it works that way for some people. My attitude, though, has always been to try whatever was proposed to me (apart from unsafe or illegal practices) as it gave me a chance to expand the scope of my sexuality... but that's because I always wanted to expand it. From pre-adolescence on, if I heard or read about a new (to me) kink, my interest was usually piqued. So no one ever needed to convince me of anything, and I can't really understand the mindset of those who have to be convinced into doing things that are a bit out of the norm, since they're the most fun to do! And even when I didn't think I'd enjoy some specific practice, knowing that my sexual partner did was a good enough reason to try. And am I glad I did!

Re: "transvestite": Thanks for answering!

I find people who automatically think of transvestites as prostitutes rather ridiculous. I know plenty of guys who like to dress as women at parties or to go to a bar occasionally; they're doctors, architects, dancers, teachers, Pilates instructors, etc. But you're right: it is somewhat to be expected. Hopefully, that'll change with the next generation.
Oh, I hope that there's not a new rule of "handjobs come standard." I've always hated them and do not see the point. A man has his own hand, what does he need mine for. To fumble around to try to approximate his preferred method of jerking off, when he can clearly do it better himself. I've always been happy to watch but I've never mastered the technique. Perhaps the problem is most of the men I've known have been circumcised so the "right" combo of lube and grip is elusive and then of course most guys can't come quickly from an inexpert handjob and the hand gets tired.... It's about as interesting as waiting for a timer to go off. Why with so many other orifices to choose from (which have much more stamina) would anyone choose a hand? I think of handjobs as make out territory for adolescents who are not yet ready for penetrative sex. I kind of skipped that stage so that could be why I have no affinity for them. If 3's partner's attitude is similar to mine (and it sounds like it might be), they should definitely break up. That woman will be entirely bored by handjobs and if she figures out he's tricking her into them, she'll dump him...or just dump him from boredom, sooner or later. Might as well end it now.
"I thought there's no use getting into heavy petting,
It only leads to trouble, and... Seat-wetting!" - Janet from
Rocky Horror
TDTBW - When you want to be with someone, you attempt to start or maintain a relationship. When you don't want to be with someone, you attempt to end the relationship. And when you like someone a lot, but you don't see much long term potential, you try to close-bus them.. like taking a bus that will go closer to your destination but not quite there.. date them casually while dating others because at least you are happier than being single.

You've said some things that make zero sense to me...
I feel too guilty to break up with him.
You don't owe people sex or relationships. Your exes were not patient with you for your benefit. They were patient with you for their own benefit.
He really cares about me, and he didn't do anything wrong.
You don't maintain a relationship just because someone else tells you to. You don't break up with someone to punish them.
We've dated for four months, and I don't know if I'm giving up too soon.
Four months is long enough to see if you can grow happier together, or if conflict will remain. If it is not getting better, the present is as good as it gets, and you need to decide if YOU WANT to settle for it. If you really want to break up with him, then do it. But I think you're writing because you want to close-bus him. Careful not to skew his expectations then; tell him you don't plan to be monogamous in the long term etc. And if you're hesitating because you want to change him to be perfect.. haha good luck.

PEGGED - The owner gets to control what happens to it. Can you co-own with this girlfriend by setting up ownership rules (type, usage, who buys out who if you break up) that you are both happy with? Sounds easier to just buy what you want.

TC - Yeah assholes belong together. But shouldn't a good advisor encourage people to grow up instead of stay an asshole and stay together with another asshole? If she can't solve her asshole habits (which doesn't include this often refusing handjobs complaint) then dump her. And if you need to be an manipulative asshole to be with her then she should dump you. But she'll probably just cheat on you again. People are weird.

A smart guy would encourage her to do what you like by exploring what she likes in bed, and rewarding good sex favors (or even baby steps towards them) with that stuff. Y'know, if you get sick of being assholes to each other some day.

BDF @ 36
“… jacking a cut cock is really not a lot of fun”
I’m delighted to add another item to my ever-growing whining list.

Squidgie @ 54
“Why … would anyone choose a hand?”
Different reasons. Personally I find someone else playing with my penis very intriguing. Among many other reasons there’s the sense of vulnerability and letting go mixed with watching their hands playing.
I like the creative, playful folks who don’t see the sole purpose of a handjob as “make you come as fast as possible” with lots messy lube, which I never use, and monotonous hand movement.
For me cupping the balls with one hand, gently moving around and squeezing them while the other hand’s fingertips work the tip, can go a long way. And it can be nothing but a playful act that doesn’t necessarily lead to ejaculation.

As someone who can seldom come while worked exclusively by others, I join the manual action if we do go for a happy ending. “Please continue to cup them, work the tip with the other and I’ll stroke the shaft,” or “Watch how I play the tip with both my hands. Next time I cup the balls and you have both hands to play.”
I also like fingering my partner and consider feedback as to what and where as sexy intimacy.

In conclusion: hasndjobs can be lots of mutual fun, and no messy lube required. Most important, circumcised dicks still rock!
Sq 54
A man has his own hand, what does he need mine for.

This must be one of the most ridiculous things I ever read on Savage Love.
@57 agreed! I'm sure a person could feel that a handjob is unnecessary if it is viewed as just an attempt to replicate their partner's method of jerking off, and try to make their partner orgasm asap. But if you view a handjob as a way to uniquely and personally make your partner feel good, then it's just another sensual activity to mix up your sex life. I conceptualize it as more of a penis massage - obviously it's a little nicer to have someone else give you a massage (especially if they're someone you're attracted to!) than give yourself a massage.
@42, @43, and @44: I fourth it!!
CMD, thank you for the lesson in how to. You insisting on no lube might be a law too far for some though. Circumcised cock does rock, and after the event its too late if it doesn't. It is still a barbaric practice as I see it and if I were a man and that was done to me, without my consent, I'd be looking to take someone to court over it. The religion, my mother.
So this guy has a sexual menu available daily most men would be very content with, it's just he doesn't get the one thing he's pining for. And they fight.
He wants to know if he should fake stuff to bring this behaviour about more often. No is my answer.
Lava- I'm not insistent on either no-lube or circumcision. We had two posts casting a somewhat negative light on both so I thought I’d chime in.

Lube- everyone is welcome to use as much or as little as they want. I don’t use it and thought I’ll share my knowledge with the public in case anyone else wants to go that route for whatever reason.

Circumcision- I’m also on the fence on this one. “Barbaric practice” to some may be a religious or health issue to others, justified or not.
Like you I think that adults should be able to make the choice for themselves, and I suspect many of us will opt not to.
I just felt obligated to stand for those of us who were cut as babies, either tied to the hospital bed or made to suck on a wine soaked cloth by some bearded dude right before the act.

And I’m also against faking.
@ 62 - I'm also circumcised (as a baby) and I don't use lube either. A loose grip (no death grip! ever!) and a light tug on the scrotum is perfect.
I can't imagine how excruciatingly painful a circumcision would be, if the procedure was done on a grown man---Ouch! At least male infants have no memory of the operation.
Any circumcised men out there with regrets that it was done?
@51 Alison Cummins Hi! I saw you asked me a question on another column but it was so long ago, you might not see it there. So as off topic as it is now, I'll post it here too: Alison Cummins, I think you are under the assumption that I'm a guy. I'm not. I'm a woman! And I don't know what you mean by MMF vs. MFM. I just meant I would only do a 3-some with two men and not with another woman. I'm not interested in women at all. I haven't actively looked for this, as in placing an ad or anything. It's just that any guy I've been with that I've discussed 3-somes with has only been interested in a 2-girl 3-some if anything except for that one guy, like I said, but I was only with him for 2 months so it never happened. But what surprised me was that he was the one who brought it up, which I found very unusual (although he stubbornly insisted HE pick the other guy, which we argued about and I finally said okay but only if he meets this long list of criteria - not sure why that was so important but like I said, it never happened anyway.)
Ahh, the handjob. I find it very difficult to only use my hand(s) - my mouth always wants in on the action. I feel a stronger connection to my partner through my lips and tongue - hands feel rather distant and removed. I feel like I get more information about what my partner is enjoying via my lips and tongue - my hands aren't as sensitive. And saliva is a very handy lubricant - the best hands can do in that department is sweat, and I've never worked up a palm sweat yet.

CMD - I appreciate the details at #56.

Philophile - thinking about this concept of close busing. I don't think I would really want to continue dating someone who was getting me almost there, while also casually dating other people. I can't figure out why yet, but that's why I'm thinking.
@66. Still thinking?
Excuse me if I get a bit potty mouthed, I've started reading Amy Shummer's book.
Please don't think my experiences with cut males has been less that perfecto. I've only ever been with one guy who was uncut and he couldn't quite get it up.
The not using lube or rather a small amount of coconut oil, nah, way too hard. I'd be more than happy to hold a man's balls and he could do the rest. No coconut oil no hand job.
LW. Have you tried encouraging your girl to use this very good oil yet. Maybe there is your problem.
Re: Tugboat
The H-J has become the most common form of sex at my advanced age and so I have very wide experience in that area. My current lube is the mixture I use for body massages for Miss N.:...1/2 almond oil and 1/2 mineral oil (generic walgreens).
RE coconut oil
I have begun using the coconut oil for baking, but it's "solidity" reminds me of Vaseline, and I had some issues with that. Perhaps if heated, well more on that after some experiments.
@67 Lavagirl: "spoon" your guy, reach around and hold his left nipple in your left hand and his balls in your right hand.
Hun - You showed a flawed understanding of how Viagra works last week. It relaxes the smooth muscle in genital arteries, increasing blood flow to the area. (Promotes cGMP which breaks up PED5 in the genitals, relaxing the arteries) You can either type "how viagra works" into google for the quick summary, or read about it in more detail here:…

Also, imagining the future is a big difference between humans and other animals. I value this trait (and creativity) highly. Others, like you, value different aspects of being human. I don't believe I imagine too much. Instead I pity those who lack imagination.

Still Thinking - Close busing can be a shitty practice if you leave your partner with the impression that it's a great lasting relationship. I like to call those "close but no cigar" partners "friends with benefits", myself. Even if we are gushy and romantic, as well as simply sexual, sometimes.. gushiness does seem to creep into a relationship with good sex. I do think that close busing is a clever term though. And if you spend a few years without finding "the one"... maybe the close bus (or FWB) is the best choice to settle on. It beats staying celibate while searching imo. Maybe it makes you less desperate and hurts your searching effectiveness a little... but the stink of desperation is often a turn off anyway. To each their own.
Shoot sildenafil is a substitute for cGMP, it doesn't promote it. Still, relaxes genital arteries so enough blood gets there to swell them up.
@ 64 - I have no conscious memory of the intervention (done when I was three days old), but I do feel weird in the groin everytime someone makes a comment about circumcision...
Diagoras @65,

Yes, in that comment I had misread you as a man. Sorry.

MFM: Two [nominally] straight men pleasing a woman (who is the filling in their sandwich). Sometimes two men subjugating a woman. When both men are into the concept of the MFM they accept there might be some "crossing swords" but neither seek it out nor worry about it.

A horny desperate straight guy (HDSG) might think that a woman willing to participate in an MFM is not very choosy, so that responding to an ad by an MF couple offering an MFM could be an effective way to get at the F. The HDSG doesn't actually want the other M around. The other M is just a compromise the HDSG might have to make to get at the F, and the HDSG will immediately commence negotiations to minimize the presence of the other M.

MMF: One gay or bi man + one bi man + one bi or straight woman. All in a puppy pile (everyone takes turns being the filling in the sandwich) or a man and a woman fouling up on the other man (the filling in the sandwich).
@ Philo Congrats on being this weeks 69.
@72 Thank you Alison for clarification! I never understood the difference between MMF and MFM. This is most enlightening! Love the HDSG acronym
Circumcision issues/ Aunt Zelda @ 64
First my apologies for failing to mention our Muslim brothers, many of them have to go through this in their early teens.
Babies- it is possible that babies actually suffer more considering the urine-soaked diaper and the danger of using pain killers at such an early age. Apparently there’s a new method that lets the skin dry over few days and fall by itself with minimal pain. I was told the end result looks “a little different,” and I seriously doubt religious authorities of any persuasion are willing to forgo blood.
I know only two men who were circumcised as adults. According to one’s brother in law “he said sex is better.” The other is a relative I still have to pin down after couple of pints and find out.

What it meant to be circumcised during WW2 era can be viewed in “Europa Europa,” a 1990 movie…
(interestingly enough the director chose to show the main character completely nude at some point, and guess what- he’s uncut!)

On a personal note: My first all the way bj, meaning ejaculation and swallowing, was performed by a European woman many years ago. It was also her first, and she told me afterwards she deemed the cut version more suitable for such activity.
That was the moment I decided to drop the case against the bearded dude.

Seriously? Dude gets laid EVERY DAY with "you name it" every kind of fun and games except for hand jobs, and he bitches and whine and try to pressure her into it, and NOW he wants to fake not being able to climax so he gets what he wants! And Design Dan says this is a good idea, because she cheated at the beginning, when even the would be liar and A-hole manipulator admitted that he PRESSURED her into a relationship when she wasn't ready. WOW!!!

Design Dan just won the worst stop-gap-sex-columnist EVER!

Lying, bullying, manipulative LW, PLEASE BREAK UP with your poor victim! She's wasted enough time with you. There is NO RELATIONSHIP HERE! You and Design Dan are giving men a bad name!
Worst. Dan Savage. Ever.
Geez guys, tells us how you feel.
"Fuck it, lie to her. It seems like she has no issues lying to you!" whoa what? This is what, because she cheated?

Either break up or get past it, your decision. But don't hang around in a relationship you feel like shitting on.

FYI I'm as anti-cheating as most people, but it's not factually the case that people who cheated are all remorseless sociopaths.
I don't say anything because I don't want to hurt his feelings...

The road to hell is followed by people tiptoeing around feelings.

...and because I'm really grateful to him for wanting to be with me and being nice to me.

You may have shaken off the religious sexual hang-ups, but your self-esteem still needs some intensive care.

To be blunt, I don't want to date him anymore.

That's all the reason you should ever need to stop.

But I feel too guilty to break up with him. He really cares about me, and he didn't do anything wrong.

Incompatibility is a perfectly sufficient reason to break up. The other person doesn't have to do anything wrong.

Where would I be if previous boyfriends had ditched me for being inexperienced instead of showing me the ropes? Don't I owe Guy the same thing?

This isn't an issue of inexperience and it can't be fixed in the same way.
Alison Cummins @72, Thanks for clearing that up! Yes, then probably I would want MFM since the point for me is to be the center of attention, although I could see doing an MMF if I was taken care of first. The problem is I would want one of the guys to be a known quantity first, someone I'm already involved with, because I just don't feel safe placing an ad looking for BOTH guys. I think it's very likely this might mean never getting to do one, though, but I can live with that.

If you currently have a sexual partner who is down for an MFM, or an MFM followed by an MMF, ask him to find the second. He will know someone. I promise.
Tips to men who want to receive hand jobs from women: Be like CMD and TELL US HOW. We have no dick, so we have no clue. Most men moan less than women, so we have no idea whether you're liking what we're doing... and like Still Thinking @66 says, it's not really all that enjoyable for us. So if it's not enjoyable for you either then it seems kinda pointless. Tell us! Firmer? Looser? Faster? Slower?

Squidgie, if you've never enjoyed receiving a handjob more than you would have enjoyed masturbating, then my "tell them how!!" advice applies to you too.
@71 Ricardo: Sorry--I didn't mean to step on your toes if this is a sensitive issue. Understood. I'd feel weird, too. The procedure itself just sounds so invasive, rather than beneficial.
@74 CMD: You and your fellow male Muslims had to endure circumcision in your teens?!
Ouch! The risk of infection and overpowering pain medications for male infants made me wonder how much of the emphasized need for the procedure is due to religious background and family beliefs. I'd hate to think that in some cultures it's forced upon.
I'm a straight woman who's not in a relationship and I love being the center of attention in am MFM threesome. My advice if you're single is not to put an ad out for two people at once, but to cultivate several different FWBs with whom you have sex one-one-one. Wait until you get to know some of them a bit better and then ask those whom you think would be okay with the other M perhaps incidentally touching them if they'd be interested. Reassure both parties that no bisexuality is required. I've had tremendous success with this technique, but so far all the partners have a fair amount of experience in the group sex world or in open relationships and are pretty easy-going about sex. It helps, I think, that we're all free-agents and it's not a couple and a third. And it helps that it's not the only way I have sex with these guys and that I had established a good sexual FWB relationship with each of them before I tried combining people. These threesomes have always stayed completely heterosexual.
Good luck getting what you want!
@ 83 - Don't worry, Griz, if I really didn't want to think about it, I wouldn't have gotten involved in the conversation. Though it does feel weird down there when for some reason I get a mental image of foreskin being removed, 99.99% of the time I don't think about it all.

There's one upside: I am fascinated by uncut cocks, and that semi-fixation has been a constant source of pleasure throughout my life (for me and, I hope, for my uncut partners). I just love playing with foreskin!

Please consider running some variety of Dan's Greatest Hit Columns when Dan goes on vacation. I'm sure this Dan Savage is very nice, but he's sure not our Dan Savage.
@85 Ricardo: You've got me beat there. Both my past two heterosexual partners (my only two, ever, back in my 20s and 30s; I'm 52 and premenopausal now) were both circumcised. I have no experience with an uncut penis and have nothing to add or compare, so I was just curious.

@82; Fan, now hold on there partner.
I never said it wasn't enjoyable, I just said I wouldn't be up for a non- coco- oil rub.
Heh. My first encounter with an uncut peen, I felt it before I saw it - groping in the backseat of a car - and blurted out, "It feels weird!" (I don't have the best filters between brain and mouth...) I think the guy must have had similar reactions before, since he just laughed and explained. It was definitely much more fun to play with than a 'standard' tool.
Lava @88: Unless you are also posting under the name "Squidgie," I never said you did!
Also, agree with Nocute's advice for threesome finding @84, whether straight or bi in nature.
Aunt Zelda @ 83
The origin of circumcision is still unknown. Some historians believe it was a way to force slaves to look different, others suspect it was a way to give a mental jolt to babies in order to make them better warriors in the future.
It was introduced mostly by Jewish traditions, as a covenant between the big g and the supposedly chosen people, and known as “brith” which means “pact” or “contract” in Hebrew.
I’m a supposedly chosen one, hence a bearded dude equipped with specialized scissors of some when I was few days old. No specific age in Islam, I think the range is 9-13 or so.

Circumcision for health reasons became wide spread in the US after WW2, when noticing that Jewish GI’s posted in the humid Pacific front were less likely to get infections down there compared with their uncut brothers in arms.

Male circumcision for religious reasons is still highly expected in many places, and often follows with a celebration thrown by the families.
@92 Another theory is that it was an anti-masturbation measure, as was Corn Flakes:… Personally, if I were a guy, if forced to choose, I would have opted for the Corn Flakes.
@ Alison, my current is too new to ask just yet. I typically get rather emphatic no's, though, whether from discomfort of being naked in front of another guy or more commonly, just jealousy issues. But who knows, this one could be different.

@Iwasnocutename, thanks. I'll keep those ideas in mind as well.
@82. Fan.. " .. And like Still Thinking @66 says, it's not really all that enjoyable for us." Who are the 'us' you are referring to in this comment then? My take is you were talking for women in general.
As happens quite often, people seem incapable of reading what I actually wrote.

@36: "Seriously, spending 15 minutes jacking a cut cock is really not a lot of fun."

Did that imply that spending two minutes helping a guy come, or as part of foreplay, was not fun? I hope it did not.

Lava @95: Would you argue that giving a handjob to someone who was getting no visible enjoyment out of it was fun, as an activity in and of itself? I suspect not. Yanking one's arm up and down is physically challenging. The only reason we ("we" being the collective pronoun for "givers of handjobs") would want to engage in this activity is for the pleasure of the recipient, yes? Do people buy dildos and spend hours jacking them off? Perhaps they do, and I'm just not aware of this particular interest.
@ 93
I don’t think circumcision deters any of us as-babies; other ages will speak for themselves.

@ 94
MFM- from the opposite camp:
Look for signs that may give you an indication. Are there any MFM clips you like that you feel comfortable sharing with him?
Next step may be you making out or more with another man while he’s watching, glass of wine in hand an option for connoisseurs.
(For the record, I don’t necessarily view this scenario as cuckolding. Some ordinary folks like to watch and some of them may also feel the dynamic is rather in their favor.)
You and regular “viewing” guy should let each other digest the making-out-or-more session for a day or two and schedule a post-event review. This time a glass of wine is mandatory, and so is hammering out where things are heading. Or not.
Diagoras revisited- He may also ask for an FMF in return, so at least give it some thought and identify what may make it easier on you. Can you apply any of it as an introducer?
@98: I can't speak for Diagoras, but I believe that @65 she made her preferences and limits clear regarding threesomes. Why should she--or anyone who wants a threesome in which they'd be having sex with people they are not attracted to-- have to think about what would "make it easier on" her? Most straight men who ask for a threesome want an FFM, not an FMF, which means that they want the women to have sex with each other as well as with the man. If both women are bi, than assuming that they are attracted to each other, that is no problem, but if either woman is not, then she's being asked to do something she may find pretty repellent.

There is a persistent attitude in this culture that all women are sexually fluid in their orientation, that it's no big deal for a woman, even a straight woman, to have sex or engage in some kind of sexual activity with another woman as some sort of entertainment for men. I find this attitude irritating.

Some women want to have an MMF threesome (Alison identified what that was up @72) but I think most people understand how vehemently a lot of straight men would object to having any kind of sexual interaction with another man.

If at least two people are bi or everyone is gay and the same sex, threesomes are less potentially difficult to arrange. I've had boyfriends want an FFM, and there's no way that's going to happen with me. I could be part of an FMF threesome, wherein we both just service the man, but every man I've ever dated who wanted a threesome has wanted to watch me interact with another woman as much as he's wanted to be the beneficiary of two women's ministrations. I'm not able to do that. I've also never had a serious boyfriend who was willing to to have an MFM with me, even knowing that I didn't expect him to interact directly with the other man (I might find it sexy if they did, but the essence of the fantasy is the center of attention quality for me), and of course I understand that that act is off limits. I would never, for example, offer to have sex with someone by whom I am repulsed sexually as a bargaining chip to coerce a man into taking part in an activity he is freaked out by. So I simply have MFM threesomes, which I arrange myself, when I'm single.
@99 Edit: I meant to write: Why should she--or anyone who wants a specific type of threesome, with people she is attracted to--have to think about what would "make it easier on" her to have sex with people whom she is not attracted to?
I didn’t mean she has to either, but she should be ready for the possibility that a potential male partner may bring it up, as you stated yourself.
Regardless of her answer to the possibility of him asking anything from an ffm to her dressing him up or whatever I suggested an intellectual exercise in which such question comes up and look into adopting some of what might work for her being on the other side while introducing and implementing her ideas.
And there’s nothing wrong with negotiated compromises, whether this is the case in here or not.

To be clear - I am happy to do mind my best to give a hand job. I just 1) don't feel very skilled at it, 2) don't feel like I get enough information about the recipient's level of pleasure from it, 3) don't feel I can communicate my enjoyment of my partner's body as well through it. And, my guys have nearly always orgasmed, or got closer to an orgasm, from my blow job (I know, I know, this is not the only measure of pleasure), whereas I don't recall any of them coming as the result of my hand job.

Guys - anyone object to getting a blow job rather than a hand job?
@ 87 - Well if you only had two (circumsized) male partners... I guess there wasn't much interest on your part except a bit of curiosity, indeed. But as sanguisuga states @ 89, uncircumsized penises are more fun to play with. Which doesn't mean circumsized penises are not fun to play with (for those who like to play with penises, of course).
@ 92 - I always thought (read it a long time ago in a scholarly publication, but I can't give you reference coz my memory is not that good) that circumcision appeared in desertic areas (where water was scarce) out of hygienic concerns, then given a religious meaning in order to enforce its use and thus ensure the survival of the tribe.
Fan darling; how would I know to return to an earlier post of yours to find out a finer detail I sort of missed in the one I quoted. You make it sound so laborious. I have never approached a man with my hands or mouth having the expectation he would be coming from those activities. That is way too much pressure.
Still Thinking, I could ask you the same question. You happy to forgo the fingering and have the mouth. My answer to that ques is; Er no. Very different sensations and both equally delicious.

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