Savage Love Oct 26, 2016 at 12:00 am

Seven Nights


All I want to do is feel close to my wife, orgasm, and sleep.

And she wants what, WOES? "Sex once a week or so" does not sound like a verbatim quote. Stop asking syndicated sex advice columnists (sorry, Dan) and do your homework first. TALK TO HER.

And just to be clear, WOES: you are miles away from getting a "get-out-of-monogamy-free" card.
WOES: I've said before, and I'll say it again: Humans were masturbating for millions of years before the invention of the Internet. You do not NEED porn. And yeah, "Can we fuck so I can get to sleep" isn't the most romantic attempt at seduction I've ever heard. Way to make sex a chore and make your wife want it even less often.
If you need to ejaculate in order to sleep, perhaps you could masturbate while cuddling your wife? She gets a no-pressure cuddle, you get off, you both get to sleep. Some women are a bit put off by a guy jerking it next to them, but if you're right that she "she does sincerely care and wants to help me," she may be happier about your masturbating as part of couple time than doing it in the other room with YouPorn.

At the risk of sounding like Commentor, if you can't deal with a dip in your sex life... don't have kids.

Another suggestion: Smoke weed. It sure helps MY insomnia.
A guy who wants to fuck and fall asleep and has a habit of shaming his wife for her sexual past doesn't undersrand why he isn't getting more than the above average amount of sex he's getting....what an entitled dick.
Well, he did talk to her:

And yes, I have talked and fought with her countless times.
So I can't blame him for writing to Dan. Dan's answer was pretty good, too. If you don't want to masturbate while looking at porn, learn to use just your fantasy. Your fantasy can be much better than porn anyway because it's all under your control. The women don't have to have fake plastic nails!

(I don't think that this LW is looking for a "get-out-of-monogamy-free" card, BTW.)
2 cont. You may even luck into the possibility that your masturbating next to your wife turns her on... and voila! Solo sex turns into partnered sex. (Don't start masturbating expecting her to join in, though -- that way you won't be disappointed on the majority of occasions she doesn't.)
RE @4: "And yes, I have talked and fought with her countless times."

Fighting with someone over the fact that they have a lower sex drive than you do is definitely not the way to make them want you more.
BDF @6 No argument there.
LW1 - In your next life, marry a female robot who never requires sleep. I omit assorted pejoratives from the Gendre Wars.

Ls 2/3 - Well played by Mr Savage; the last paragraph in response to L3 is some rather delicate tightrope-walking.
I agree with all Dan and the commenters have said about WOES so I don't have much to add. I'll note that he asked about insomnia, porn, and how often his wife wants to have sex. Only the first has gone unaddressed so here goes.

Orgasm is one thing that helps people get to sleep, but there are others. First try getting lots of exercise early in the day to see if that helps you fall asleep more easily at night. Also try going to bed and awakening on a schedule that doesn't vary even on the weekends. Try sleeping in another room or another bed away from your wife on the non-sex nights. Make sure you explain this is only to help you sleep and is not a rejection of her. Keep up the daytime hugs and kisses when you do this.

You know the way Dan will recommend retraining for guys who have masturbated with too firm a hand and can't come any other way? You may have learned to sleep only after having an orgasm and similarly need to learn to sleep another way. Think of it as retraining. Don't come or don't sleep after coming until your body learns different ways to fall asleep.

Try yoga-type relaxation exercises. But mostly try lying in bed in the dark until exhaustion overcomes you.
Fichu @9: "Only the first has gone unaddressed"
Hey, my suggestion was serious.
11-BiDan-- Sorry. Missed that. I considered adding something about seeing a doctor for insomnia, then didn't because, while I have lots of experience with exercise and lying awake, I have none with seeing doctors for sleep problems or sleep inducing drugs/medication. So I can't comment on marijuana for the problem.
She has low libido, that is all. Once a week when she is in the mood is pretty good, so dont complain too much. I have lots of ideas from things I would like to do, and when I ask my wife what she would like to do, I get a blank stare. "I dont think about sex like you do". My wife says this is normal, all her friends have similar libidos after kids. Oral you say? I ask to give or receive every time, but that rarely goes anywhere.
This is a self-selecting population on this message board, so most people here likely have a hard time understanding low libido people. I do too. I work hard, and the more I work, the more I want some fantasy escape. Not so with the low libido, after a long day they dont want another chore. Sucks for me, so many things I would like to do. Sucks for her, I would certainly be annoyed with someone bugging me all the time. When her gears finally mesh and shes feeling great, you savor it. Then it's back to being frustrated for awhile.
WOES – as others have said, you've trained yourself to think you can only fall asleep after sex. Retrain. Try a few natural things that many people say helps, a glass of warm milk, etc...personally, when I'm having trouble falling asleep, a hot bath does wonders. Check out this site for a few more options...
Stop using your poor wife as a sleep aid and guilting her. That's gotta be one huge turn-off for her and guarantees even less sex. Reread BiDan@2 - she's spot-on in her post. And, while I agree with the "spank-the-monkey next to your wife" crowd, that's a once (maybe twice) a week solution. If you just gotta get off every single day it will just make your wife feel inadequate to rub it in her face (pun intended). Be considerate & go the "don't ask, don't tell" route in another room.

STUCK – School and your (possible loser) financially troubled/underemployed boyfriend seem to be telling you and I that this may not be the optimal relationship for you. Time to move's not the end of the story, it's the beginning of another chapter. (Group) sex is only one aspect of your relationship, if all the others are making you unhappy, then man up and do something about it. And it's not "DTMFA" doesn't sound like he's being a total asshole, he's needy and taking advantage of the financial stability that you're offering him. If you're feeling used, it's because you are letting him use you. Equal blame in my eyes.
@2 I find that pot helps too. Getting high and jerking off while cuddled up with someone sounds like a pretty fucking great way to get to sleep 6 nights a week.

LW's orgasm "needs" sound tiresome as does his entitled attitude about them. It's not your wife's job to fuck you to sleep every night. She's a partner, not a sex toy. LW is lucky she still fucks him at all given the way he describes his behavior. Whining and badgering someone about sex is DTMFA behavior in my book.
WOES - I feel sorry for your wife. I have a pretty high libido (5-6 times a week) but I would resent the idea of sex as a sleep aid. I'll also echo what Dan said because it might mean more coming from a woman. After sex I am very alert and it takes me an hour to wind down even if it was right before bed and he conks out when his head hits the pillow. If it was a quickie and it's routine I probably didn't come adequately, maybe just a tiny orgasm, so that's very frustrating. I may have come leaking out of my vagina which means I have to clean up or I'll feel sticky all night and (often) a little itchy. I may be sore if we've been having PIV every day for the last week. A 5 minute quickie for a man is more like 90 minutes for a woman when you factor in clean up and calming down.

I've found daily satisfying quickies to be maintainable for months early in the relationship but at some point my desire for my partner diminishes just enough that to have daily sex where I come properly I need more time and more arousal before having sex. (Pretty sure there have been studies that women like novelty in sex partners more than men.) I'm not saying my desire for him tanks, just that it takes me longer to become aroused and to orgasm. Instead of instantly getting wet when I hear someone shout his name in a crowded place it'll take something more specific/concentrated. Add all of the hormonal changes of having kids.

I suggest: hire help so your wife has less stuff to do around the house and put all other types of sex back on the table and not as consolation prizes. And for fuck's sake don't whine or guilt trip or yell at her about this. There's nothing less sexy than a grown man who uses manipulative tactics like that. My pussy would be drier than the Sahara if a man did that.
Rarely does a lw irritate me as much as WOES does. So he needs to orgasm in his wife to be able to fall asleep, does he? How did he sleep before they were married or sharing a bed? I guess he just suffered from insomnia night after night, waiting until the time when he would a have a vagina next to him so he could pump away at it for a couple of minutes before coming and collapsing.

In addition to getting enough exercise, drinking warm milk, stepping away from screens or violent imagery at least an hour before going to bed, there are choices like Ambien. Or over the counter sleep aids, like Tylonal PM (or just take a Benadryl--that's the active ingredient in Tylonal PM anyway, and you don't want to worry about accidental Acetaminophen overdoses).

WOES doesn't want to get addicted to porn? Or he doesn't enjoy it? He said both those things. He blames his porn aversion on his fundamentalist upbringing. How convenient. Then someone should tell him that porn addiction, if there is such a thing, is what happens when consuming porn takes over your entire life, interfering with every aspect of it. It's not like a switch that gets activated with one use. Not to mention, that as a lot of people point out, you don't need internet porn to masturbate. You don't need to sit in front of a computer to jerk off.

I disagree with some of the advice: WOES sounds like a whiny brat (she is just so tired and busy with her career and our kids. And yes, I have talked and fought with her countless times. In weaker moments, I'll admit I have also guilted her for her more "active" sexual past (with prior boyfriends) and for her current "neglect," which I know is unfair and unhelpful.) and I can easily imagine his poor exhausted wife might not want him to start whining about wanting a blow job or wanting to hold him as he jerks off. There are countless places to go--the shower, the guest room, the living room if the kids are asleep. Their unoccupied bedroom while the beleaguered wife is showering or still in the living room watching tv after the kids go to sleep.

This may or may not be a mismatched libido situation--it's hard to tell. I understand that WOES probably wants intimacy and connection with his wife, not just the solo orgasm, but he sure doesn't convey that in his letter and it's likely his attitude of entitlement and his decision to shame or guilt his wife for her past that are making her less interested in being his Fleshlight-sleep aid.
alol @RE @4: "The women don't have to have fake plastic nails!" So true. So very true.

I think Dan's stock response here (PIV isn't all there is, widen your boundaries a bit) is much better advice than it might seem. I can't tell you how many OS relationships I've been in where despite both people being fairly open and educated about sex, PIV was definitely the default, and certainly thought of as the culmination even if you started with something else. (Well, I could tell you, but that would be a bit sad.) Now I'm in one where all the things Dan lists are on the table, and each one is a fun thing in and of itself, and not only am I having more fun, we're both having more sex. And, relevant to this letter, we're having more sex at night, which is sadly my least favorite time to do it--I'm tired at night! (Sadly since it's an easy time, schedule-wise.) But I'm almost never so tired that I mind being fondled while my partner jerks off. Maybe the wife would be up for that? So yeah, LW, do other stuff too!

I also want to make enthusiastic noises over Dan's second response. Kids today, with their closure, and all that shit--no, sometimes it's over, and you're allowed to say so and get out. Of course it's great if you had the type of relationship where you could clearly communicate your reasons for leaving and everyone would be okay--but if you had that type of relationship, you might not need to leave it. I recommend a few listens to Paul Simon's "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover."

Honestly, this column makes me feel a lot better about my childfree stance (as a straight woman). It seems like monogamish gay men have all the fun.
Thank you for that last addendum on your final response, Dan. Growing up, I was never taught about what constitutes consent and inappropriate sexual touching (I'm a straight cis guy). The result of that was me not having the vocabulary to inform my parents that I'd been aggressively molested by a female babysitter multiple times as a child. It was only much later that I realized what had been done to me, but even then only because I was learning about sexual violence against women as perpetrated by men. They never taught us that it could ever be the other way around, and to be honest that's probably how things largely still are.

To any parents reading this: please, by all means, teach your children about consent and appropriate touching guidelines, but be sure you are teaching your girls AND boys what constitutes sexual assault, because it can and does happen to everyone. No one gets to breathe easy and walk through life without fear of sexual violence, contrary to what someone's burning internal resentment might tell them.
I find it hard to believe that LW1’s habit of orgasm before sleep started only after he got married, and that nothing but PIV will do.
I suspect that if it weren’t for his religious upbringing and the shame attached we would be learning that this is what he did nightly as a teenager like so many others.
Porn as the only alternative may also fit into this mind set, as he may be telling himself that seeing paid actors on screen is not cheating, as opposed to masturbating while thinking about a co-worker or, God forbid, the neighbor’s wife.

Some suggestions: in addition to broaden your orgasm inducers try and masturbate BEFORE going to bed, possibly in different times of the day. This may lead to you being more relaxed when it’s time to sleep.
Keep this as a private part of your life you don’t need to share with the wife at this point.
It may also be a good idea to initiate sex with her on different times of the day, when it can work for both of you, not just wait till the end of the day.
Masturbation next to your wife at some point is something you can also incorporate with talk of some sort. Start with telling her how much you liked doing X with her, how great she looks in that dress, and how sexy it will be to do Y. Leave other people out of the loop, at least for now.

Another thing you should do for your own AND YOUR CHILDREN’s sake is living a life, religious or otherwise, that is truly accepting of human sexuality.

CMD @21: It may also be a good idea to initiate sex with her on different times of the day, when it can work for both of you, not just wait till the end of the day.

Great point. At one point in my life, I was not a parent, but I had a similarly grueling schedule and yes, my libido fell to the point where once a week was enough to sate my desires. My then-husband didn't help by waiting until my head hit the pillow before initiating any kind of affection. By the time I got to bed, all I wanted to do was sleep. They may not have a lot of spare time, but if WOES is thinking of sex as an exclusively just-before-bed-so-I-can-sleep activity, and Mrs WOES is thinking of bedtime as too-tired-to-even-think-about-sex time, no wonder there is a disconnect.

Mesmerism @13: Agree with nearly everything you've said, except for your characterisation of once-a-week for a mother with young children as "low libido." As you yourself say, that's a perfectly average libido for a person in that situation. It's lowER than WOES', which is also perfectly average for a person in his situation (it's not uncommon for men to masturbate daily). WOES should not think of his wife as the one who has a deficiency; they should work together to find a solution, without blame. And that solution will almost certainly include a lot of masturbation, which, as several people have said, is clearly what he used to do before the wife entered the picture.

Thanks, Donny @14 -- and you're right, if WOES makes this an every-night duty for his wife, she's going to be even less attracted to him as time goes on. Perhaps they could try to up the PIV to twice a week, one of those times not being last thing at night; cuddle-wanking and/or oral sex twice a week; and sorting himself out the rest of the time.
I don't necessarily see the issue between WOES and his wife as one of mismatched libidos per se. Obviously, her interest in sex is less at this time, but it sounds like that is the result of factors beyond her natural interest in sex. In any event, it does seem that WOES thinks of sex solely as PIV sex and sees his only other option as solo masturbation away from his wife. As Dan is fond of saying, heterosexuals would have more sex if they considered oral sex and mutual masturbation sex. I think WOES has a lot of options here if he thinks about sex other than PIV sex, and thinks about times when he and his wife can do those things other than at night when she might rather be sleeping. If he broadens his perspective, he might find his wife is a willing partner for those things. But even if she is not, WOES needs to get over his weird hangup on solo masturbation.

As for STUCK, my guess is that your dominant is feeling not so dominant when he's unemployed (or underemployed) and his sub is active at school and busying earning money at work. The fact that you have to explain to him that studying requires time apart, make me think that there is also an impending educational gap between you two, which is also contributing to the decline in his feelings of self-worth. Getting dumped now, when he is feeling insecure goes right to the heart of his identity as a dominant, and he is trying to exert control over you in order to maintain his sense of self. In the end, it sounds like you are on two different life tracks, and you should move forward without him.
Agree with everyone saying DO NOT make it her job to put you to beddy-by like yet another kid she has to take care of. There is already enough danger of losing the spark in a LTR and that is a good way to kill it dead.
I also like the different times of day approach. Maybe bring home takeout once a week and let the kids have a treat of eating in front of TV while mom and dad hang out alone in their room for an hour? And then probably spend most of the hour focused on her. Not really fair but you're trying to make it something she WANTS to do.
My dream is to be the girlfriend of a guy who wants sex every night or most nights if you are an attentive cooperative lover your wife is lucky. But I dont have kids I plan to have none. When I used to be a babysitter sleep after work was my priority not sex. Hire a babysitter to give your wife a break then send her to a spa for her to get massages pedicure manicure then let her come home and sleep. Show off that you are a feminist caring gentleman: Do the cooking the housework and baby care for her for few months. I am saying this because most men expect women to do most house chores and childcare care at the same time expecting lots of TLC. Can you handle it without failing sleep before your wife? I am sure she will feel energized grateful horny and be all over you.
WOES should get himself one of those realistic looking fuck dolls. Then he could treat the doll like crap and leave his poor wife alone.
Nocutename beat me to it. WOES how did you get to sleep before you were married? I really doubt you were getting laid every single night. What did you do during dry spells? And why aren't you doing this now.

Because to be frank your issue falling asleep aren't your wife's problem. Stop making them her problem. Stop using your difficulty sleeping as way to harass and guilt sex out of your wife. If your concerned talk to a doctor. They can do more you than she can.
LW1. What a nice man you sound. Yes, family life when the kids are little is full on. Your wife seems like she does her best for herself and her family.
And once a week with all that going on is ok, as long as you guys talk about upgrading once the kids are a bit more independent.
The solution to your problem is right between your ears. Self pleasure with your mind.
If porn doesn't do it for you, do it for yourself.
I have often heard Dan talk about how hard PIV sex is on the ol' vagina and say that one reason that women may not be up for it all the time is to think of how you (man) would feel if you got boned in the ass every day. Then he recommends that the person who wants more sex ask for "an assist," or to be allowed to go down on the woman while jerking himself off or to have her watch him and hold him while he masturbates.

These statements bother me for several reasons.

I can't speak for anyone else, let alone every woman. Already this thread has had contributions from a woman who seems to share Dan's attitude about how much PIV intercourse takes a toll on the vagina-haver (Big Hug Mug @16), and several people have recommended the "hold him while he masturbates" technique. But for me, the reason I might have for not wanting to have sex as frequently with my male partner and why the solution offered by Dan wouldn't work, come down to the same thing: Interest in sex or the lack of it.

Unless we're talking about a man with a huge penis, or prolonged jackhammer thrusting, or a marathon session lasting over 3 hours with lots of PIV, my vagina feels fresh as a daisy and good to go the morning after having had PIV. Every day. Sometimes I might feel sore for an hour or two after waking, but then I'm fine.* The vagina is a muscle tube, after all.

No, the reason I might have for not wanting to have sex would be because I wasn't "in the mood." While this doesn't happen often and not in my last several relationships, it did happen in my long and sexually unfulfilling marriage. And not being "in the mood" generally means I'm not interested in having sex myself because I know I'm not going to orgasm or maybe even feel good at all or in seeing that my partner is sexually satisfied at the moment. Because in order for whatever sex we have to work for him, I need to be actively invested in his pleasure.

Think about it: do you want to pump away at a woman who's lying there like a cold fish or a rubber sex doll? Some men might be able to orgasm no matter what effort or apparent interest a woman puts in, but most would, at the very least, want her to seem like she's enjoying herself. For some men, the woman's obvious lack of interest is enough to keep them from coming.

Well, "holding" a man while he's masturbating isn't something that can be done--or done well--while watching tv or reading. It's not nearly as passive an activity as Dan makes it sound. When I hold a masturbating partner, he's generally masturbating for about 10 minutes at least. If I were to appear checked out or bored or uninterested, if I were just "letting him do that," his erection would almost certainly wither. I have found that in order for my partner to really enjoy himself or in order for him to come, I need to be more invested than that. Ordinarily, this is a non-problem, but I have twice dated men I wasn't all that attracted to who could only orgasm through self-stimulation. Both times, before I broke up with them, knowing this was doomed, I had to pretend to a level of enthusiasm I didn't feel, because no one wants to be with an uninterested partner. If I have to hold my partner while he masturbates for him to come, which was the case with another man i dated, to whom I was extremely attracted and in whose pleasure I was very invested, then I need to stroke his balls or shaft while he focuses on the head of his penis; I need to lick his neck or his nipples; I need to talk dirty; I might need to do a little self-stimulation, as well.
I need to be involved is what I'm saying.

Now if my partner can come from PIV and doesn't need to masturbate himself while I hold him, and if what we're looking for is only his sexual sole satisfaction, then I might as well have PIV intercourse with him, because the level of involvement required from me is exactly the same no matter what the act and my vagina doesn't feel all torn up and raw afterward and need two-three days to recover before I am ready for the next bout of PIV.

When I was married, my husband sometimes wanted me to hold him while he jerked and I did, but if I wasn't interested in PIV, I was just as not-interested in the full-on participation necessary in good holding-while-jerking. I mean, I did it, but I resented it.

*I'm menopausal now, and there are some changes. The vaginal tissue is thinner--but less so now that I'm using Vagifem suppositories--and I don't lubricate as much. So I could actually be a lot more sore now. And still, with the Vagifem and lube, and some careful mixing it up, I don't feel pain in the moment, or soreness after the fact.
If I could get my husband to have sex with me once a week I would be THRILLED. I am a woman and do most of the housework and childcare, which I wouldn't even mind if I could just get some dick once in a while.
Gee Dan, hard core feminist response to LW1.
Not sure I'd agree sex seven days a week if one was luxuriating in a nice hotel is that tough an expectation. . Swimming, massages, someone else cooks. Daily sex would fit nicely into that scenario.
@29: exactly right. It's about energy/interest - all sex requires involvement and sometimes sexual desire is not high enough to overcome the lack of energy. I do personally disagree with the characterization of PIV as not having much of a physical impact - if I were entirely uninterested in sex and my partner had PIV sex with me, it would be decidedly unpleasant and probably a little painful. After it ended, I would probably be fine, but having physically uncomfortable PIV sex also really mentally puts me off PIV sex for a long time. My own experience, of course, and every vagina is different.

On another note, this is not just a "libido" issue (not even sure if it is that), it is also a timing issue. People definitely have different times of the day when they're most interested in sex, and not lining those times up can be problematic. I tend to go to sleep around 11 and am pretty uninterested in sex once I get sleepy, while my partner will sometimes go to sleep as late as 3-4 am and tends to go to bed feeling pretty frisky. If that were the only time we would be trying to have sex, I'm sure it would look like I have a low libido as well. Fortunately, I can normally find a time earlier in the day when we are both up for sex (but, being that we are childless with a lot of working from our respective apartments, it's much easier).

So, the LW might have to find a better time to get it on with his wife that better matches her energy levels. And yep, that might mean he has to (god forbid) pull his weight when it comes to chores and child care.

Also, as a mostly straight woman, I am so very tired of men blaming their wives/girlfriends for "low libido" when most of the time what they mean is "my wife/girlfriend won't have sex with me when I want it and how I want it." There's this shitty cycle that I'm sure other women have been stuck in: partner insists on sex when you're not feeling it for whatever reason --> he gets cranky or pouty or guilts you when you turn him down/you want to prove that you do want sex, even if you don't want sex right now --> have sex, but not really be in to it, but don't want him to know you're not into it --> so fake it, turn it into a performance until it's over --> repeat. Do this enough times (bound to happen if there is a timing issue in sexual desire) and suddenly the whole prospect of sex is no longer about desire, it's about a performance, which requires effort and work, with no payout besides keeping your man happy.

LW2: Just slip out the back, Jack.
Everybody's on LW1's case. I remember having little kids, sex was just another chore most of the time. I thought this guy felt for his wife.
Another vote (along with ciods @18, CMDwannabe @21, BiDanFan @22, and contedefees@32) that time of day matters.

With mismatched libidos, it helps to figure out when the low libido spouse is most eager for sex and move at least half of your shared sexy times to that time of day rather than sticking to the high libido person's preferred time of day.

When our kids were young, Mr. P and I had pretty much two modes of mutual sex. I was on the kids' early schedule, while he stayed up late. About once a week, he would wake me for sleepy sex when he came to bed, and I would try to stay awake and make happy, encouraging noises for him. Also about once a week, after getting the kids to preschool/school in the morning, I would wake Mr. P by climbing on his morning wood and riding him. I learned years later that it was uncomfortable for him because his bladder would be full then, but he didn't complain at the time, just as I didn't complain about being woken at night. We also both masturbated to take the edge off, which I think is key to surviving having young children at home.

Hacksaw @20 -- so sorry for what happened to you. Thank you for telling your story.
Agree with everyone saying DO NOT make it her job to put you to beddy-by like yet another kid she has to take care of. There is already enough danger of losing the spark in a LTR and that is a good way to kill it dead.

Seriously, WOES. Take heed.

You are making yourself yet one more item on her list of chores for the day. Wake up, brush teeth, get kids fed, get kids dressed, get kids to school, go to work, work, come home, do this, do that, do the other, bathe, laundry, bedtime. If you become one more item on her to-do list of interminable chores, well, guess what, "fuck husband" is going to slide lower and lower because she has other priorities.
WOES - If she's too tired after work and taking care of the kids, then do more of the housework /cooking/childcare, order takeout/delivery, drive her to work and etc, then she'll have more energy and time to be with you. Don't manipulate and guilt trip her - that would kill anyone's sexual desire. Make her feel sexy and desirable. Take her out and make her feel special. Basically - take better care of your wife and she'll take better care of you. I agree with the other posters that your insomnia is your own responsibility - that's something you should be seeing your doctor for. It's just kills desire when sex is being treated like a sleep aid.

Being WOES's wife honestly sounds like my worst fucking nightmare.
I agree with much of what has been said about LW1. I'll reiterate that he's fallen into a routine and thinks that routine is the only one that will work. Exercising more (as noted above), avoiding media, or developing some other routine (e.g., reading a few pages from a book) might help. Or maybe watch CSPAN and ogle all the rich bastards that have turned public service into a job. That's the insomnia part.

On the marriage/sex part: pick up the slack around the house, plan date nights, bring home flowers or dinner or both, write love notes, take a day off from work and surprise your wife with a lunch, surprise her with a movie night or public lecture or a concert. In short, quit being a selfish fuck and do something to show her that she's more than just a sleep aid (or location for your jizz-).
I just got "Clambien"....ha! Well played.
@17 nocutename, re: WOES, 9-Inch-Nails it--AGAIN, for a 2-peat---for the win! Kudos!
Guys like WOES continue to remind me how fortunate I truly am to be divorced and childless, and able to sleep at night quite well without PIV.
Good points made by SNTTT---and another equally excellent response, Dan. Truly, many continued thanks!
Having gone so completely against the flow, I have to ask myself why. Maybe these sorts of letters are sent in so so often, I've become dumb to the full intent.
Rearing kids is our culture is fucked. It should be the culture's no one priority, helping parents rear healthy, kind and intelligent children. Oh no. It's given this small space in between jobs and shopping , cleaning and cooking.
I did feel some desire when in the throes of rearing Rugrats. Who knew it was such an exhausting job. And my husband and I lived in different houses, five minute walk from each other. So when we got together at night, a purpose was there. And we had dinner together as a family most nights. His house, he cooked.
I needed my space, the thought of having a mostly always on the boil man next to me each night to sleep, would have sent me quite mad.
With the structure delegated to us to rear children, in order to even find sex/ erotic moments during all the Work, people need to be creative and talk to each other. If they can, with care and honesty, navigate this time when kids are small, once they get a bit bigger there is more time and energy to recapture some meaningful adult time.
I don't think it's fair to ignore the male desire or the female's one. Acknowledge each other's needs, and be creative in resolving the dislocated.
LW1, stop with the arguing with your wife. She will just grow to resent you, and then no sex.
Talk to each other and both need to see this is an important part of your intimacy with each other, the physical loving, while seeing also the life load you are both under. Go and jack off by yourself and have dirty fantasies, tell your wife, as keeping the talk alive between you re physical intimacy is important, just don't lay any trips on her. Like others have said above, sex the story up a bit. Get the kids babysat, take her away for a weekend and see what happens.
Nocute @29: Good points. Often when there is a sex drive mismatch, oral sex is suggested as a solution. But honestly, giving someone a blowjob is a lot more work than lying back and thinking of England. It's something nice to do for your partner once in a while, and when they're pestering you for sex you don't want, you're unlikely to prefer a higher-effort alternative.

Nerdiness @30: DTMFA.

Hunter78 @34: I don't think WOES will find a woman who is guaranteed to want PIV sex every night unless he's paying her. Women who like sex every day are out there but come on. Even the horniest person is sometimes ill or stressed or has debilitating period pain. How on earth would you even go about searching for that kind of thing? Even if you did find someone who wanted sex every day early in the relationship, odds are exceptionally high that as time went on the level of interest would wane. Sorry, but god gave people two hands for a reason. Daily sex is not something anyone has the right to expect.
BLMK careful when giving this line of advice. I think you're on the right side of it but it's super-easy to slide over.

Yes, you should do more chores around the house *because you are a decent human being,* not because if you put enough housework tokens into the machine, it will dispense sex at you. The simplest form of the trap is, "But I did the dishes! Why won't you sex me?" or some variation thereof. The much more subtle and nastier part is if Partner A starts doing physical tasks, but doesn't even try to take on the mental/emotional tasks (meal planning, organizing stuff, keeping a list of what needs to be done, remembering the doctor's appointments and school obligations) and then Partner A waits for Partner B to tell them what needs to be done. Partner B is still doing a huge amount of work in that case...and so they're still physically and mentally tired before hitting the hay, and Partner A gets upset because "I'm helping, why hasn't this changed?" Well, yes, you're helping, but still the equivalent of one more task on her to-do list. As long as the expectation is there, the trap can be sprung.

Better advice is, you'll log into Chore Wars, make a list together of things that need to be done, and divide them up among you because you are a decent human being and it needs to be done, with no expectation of reciprocation other than your partner doing their share.

The rest of your advice, about planning downtime and adult time, is very solid.

Ms Grizelda - Can I get you and perhaps Ms Fan to join me in advancing that it would be unwise, while coping with LW1 as Entitled Male, to avoid the element of Entitled Parent? The number of people who whine when it turns out that their life choices bring them some negatives still has the capacity to astound me. They should have learned to play chess at age two, if not before.

I suppose it's far too obvious to say that couples might hold off on children until they only want sex once a week if they can't bear the sacrifice. I just get a strong sense that C1 (or at least LW1) didn't really consider and weigh the consequences carefully before making the choice (or just letting events dictate). But I am prepared retroactively to raise my estimation of W1 if we discover that she had already reached the down-to-once-a-week point herself and either jiggled him into agreeing about children or took the decision unilaterally. (I might not approve, but it would show her to be a skilled and future-considering tactician.)
Sex every day? Anything you have to do 365+ times a year quickly becomes nothing more than just another day in the salt mines.
Re LW-1 After I read this letter I immediately thought of the scene in Annie Hall where Diane Keaton complains to her therapist:..."We have sex all the time!... like 3 times a week".
The next scene is Woody in his therapist's office:..."We hardly ever have sex! Maybe 3 times per week".
Hunter @46: Would it be fair to rephrase that as "adjust his expectations"?
It sounds awfully sinister to refer to "what he's willing to put in" to his marriage based on the reality of how much sex his wife wants. I think the "recalibrating," or recalculating, should have been done two kids ago. See below.

Venn @48: "I suppose it's far too obvious to say that couples might hold off on children until they only want sex once a week if they can't bear the sacrifice."

You think it's obvious. I think it's obvious. It's surprising, based on the letters Dan gets, just how many people (men, mainly) don't find it obvious that their sex life will have to take a back seat if they choose the life-consuming act of breeding. Perhaps this should be included in the standard sex and relationships education curriculum?
LW2: STUCK, I don't think a letter has ever struck such a chill in my heart. You're not allowed to leave? Jesus. Is your inability to defy him part of the DOM/SUB thing? I'd be interested to know how big that was in your life. Also, can you just bolt and stay with someone else? Or, since you're footing the bill for everything, maybe the lease/mortgage is in your name? OMG, you've got to get out of this.
@29 nocutename: Thank you for sharing some more good points. I'm not using Vagifem (just on progesterone), but appreciate being so frequently able to relate to your commentaries.
@48 vennominon: .....Wha-at? BiDanFan can do what she wants (or not). Some of us instinctively know that we'd make poor parents; I am one of those. I can't be someone I'm not, yet have had to fight tooth and nail since my late teens against a relentless sea of people, the only exception being my parents, blindsided by our society's hangup on motherhood to defend my choice of remaining childless.
Are you male, Ven? Then you will never experience menstrual periods, pregnancy, the permanent change to your pelvic floor and the rest of your body after conception up through labor, delivery and childbirth, the added stress of child-rearing when holding a job outside the home, or the possibility of breast lumps, right? How on earth does this place me in the "Entitled Parent" category?
I agree with BiDanFan @51: The consequences of pregnancy and parenthood on a wife's desire--let alone her time availability!!---for marital sex really needs to be fully acknowledged and better respected. It amazes me that so many men still, in the 21st Century, just do not get this, and are in dire need of enlightenment.
You may snigger, you non breeders. Our work does bring the whole society benefits, if done right. This people rearing dimension.
All those young people whose energy fires the engine, they weren't fully formed you know.
@48 vennominon: By the way, wouldn't it have been exponentially more unwise for me to have become a parent during a marriage as abusive as mine was, as well as equally unhealthy for any daughter or son I might have had? Re-read my comment at @42. I am most grateful, not complaining, about remaining childless since my divorce. Having no further contact with my ex or his family is a blessing. I dodged a major bullet, and can sleep much better at night. How does that make me a whiner?
@54 LavaGirl: I'm not sniggering. More power to you as a parent and grandparent. From your comments about your family, I can see that you're doing a far better job of parenthood than I ever could. Kudos.
I just read Nancy Friday's book, My Mother, Myself (c. 1977). In Friday's book in examining her relationship with her mother, the author and her husband had initially contemplated parenthood, then decided against it. Miss Friday realized she would be bringing on all her mother's anxieties to another generation, and therefore did not see herself as a good fit in the role of parent. I can very well relate.
Grizelda, I was talking to Fan and Venn.
@57 Hunter: Okay, but I, myself, have elected not to breed, and am also grateful to discover over the past decade or so that I am not alone in my decision. In fact, as a commenter from a previous SL pointed out, I believe the number of non-breeders is actually growing. What a relief after 25 years that a lot of the people who once so aggressively pressured me to have kids, largely "because everybody else did" are no longer part of my daily life. Being in my 50's also helps.
@58: LavaGirl: Good to know. Venn for some reason seems pissed at my comments about WOES, and I was left puzzled about how my expressed opinions raised the subject of parenthood.
@50 sb53: Annie Hall......and Woody as stand-up comedian, Alfie Senger. That brings back memories. Yes, I think I remember that scene! And... didn't Diane Keaton drive a mid 70's white VW Beetle convertible like a total maniac? Ha ha! That's me--a certified bug nut! Talk about old times.....
@50 sb53: Didn't Shelley Duvall play one of Alfie's ex-girlfriends? And Diane sang in a cabaret.

@53 vennominon: One small edit: If you're a single dad, okay, then yes, you probably would indeed have the added stress of child-rearing while holding a job outside the home in providing for a child / and / or children. But the physical burdens from weight gain, raging hormones, raised blood pressure, stretch marks, morning sickness, etc., etc., during a nine month pregnancy, and later post-partum depression after labor and delivery, no. It's exhausting, and multiple pregnancies / births can take their toll on a woman's health and energy level.
How my mother could handle raising her first three kids born within 2 years, nine months and a week of each other---and she was only four months shy of 21 by the time my brother, the third of the three, came along---is astounding. I couldn't do it.
Okay. Moving right along....... what is everybody dressing up as for Halloween? I'm going as an android dancer from Rocky Horror Picture Show, ready to do the Time Warp again.
Trying to imagine all the supports necessary for me to be interested in sex - even very very broadly defined sex - and I do like broad definitions - on a daily basis. Hmm, if I only had to do a third of the chores & childcare, work at a meaningful, income-producing job part time, and not worry about finances, I could do something sexy every day. That lifestyle ain't gonna happen. And even if it did, PIV would be at most a 3x/week event, because (unlike nocute), soreness.
Hacksaw@20: thank you for sharing your story. Yes, we do have to protect our boy children along with our girl children.
I've reared sons and I was as vigilant with them as with my daughter re any signs of sexual preditors being about. Adolescent boys though are hard to watch all the time, so who knows.
Having being reared Catholic, I was fully aware of the dangers boys can be in.
Three thumbs up, Dan. You rocked this week.
Griz @53: Venn is a gay man. I didn't understand what he meant by his first paragraph. I often don't understand Venn's posts. All I can say is, you can't possibly be an "Entitled Parent" because you're not a parent.

Lava @54, I'm not sniggering. I'm saying people should realistically consider the implications before they make such a huge decision. Sacrifice is involved, you're an idiot if you don't take this into consideration. I have every respect for those who make those sacrifices and take on the job of keeping the species alive so people like Griz and I don't have to!
I'm enjoying it more now they are all grown up and seem to be intelligently navigating their paths. It was hell for many years protecting these idiot creatures who had no clue. I'm sure it's easy if you don't have half a litter.
WOES is an immature selfish asshole.
His wife deserves better.
Here's hoping she figures out how to get it sooner than later.
@60 RE: Keaton Yes she did sing in a cabaret! I always laugh at Woody's nebbish roles and well -written dialogue but I have to side with my Miss N. on his creepy incest.
Re: LW-1 After decades of "Holy Deadlock" (thanks Archie Bunker) we have settled into "date night" a couple times each month. In the "needy times" in between I must cope by myself or seek professional help for an hour here or there. I have also come to believe that it is not a question of having chosen the wrong wife, I think that it simply the accumulation of time and, for whatever reason, "mis-matched libidos" . Instead of placing blame or attempting to figure out the "why", I simply accept that ....."it is what it is" and do the best I can going forward.
The two things I have ruled out is to ever have another affair or seek a divorce. This seems to work OK.

As someone who has been sexually assaulted twice by women(the only reason it wasn't straight up rape was that I let myself become angry enough to push them away from me) and gotten the whole gamut of "rape survivor" symptoms thank you for this.

Despite what some people believe women on men sexual assault does happen and it can be very traumatizing.
i think the way WOES wrote his letter it ticked off a lot of people here. and to some degree i think that's understandable. but i don't think he's asking for PIV every night. i feel like he's saying he could have PIV every night, but wants it more than once a week. he also feels like his lady used to have sex more frequently with others. when he says he wants to feel close to her, he may very well mean he feels sexually (or romantically) inadequate because she wanted *other* men more than she wanted him sexually. this is fairly common, and dan often addressed questions where the partner with the "higher libido" feels rejected and develops low self-worth because of the sexual dynamic. so, i feel there's a little more to unpack. WOES knows he feels bad, and maybe didn't write the best letter to express it, but i think he just wants sex more than once a week with someone who has told him that she used to have sex with others more than once a week.

the sleep stuff and porn stuff seems selfish and BS, though, so i'm with you all on all that nonsense.
WOES: Orgasm as a sleep aid? You could always 'self medicate'.
@72 (in-frequent): Those people that WOES' wife had sex with more than once a week? They were boyfriends, not husbands. Woes' wife and those guys were dating, not married, working full-time, and raising two kids under the age of four. The sex people have when dating or courting is generally more plentiful before several years of marriage, and certainly before people have two kids under four years old. If WOES' wife had married one of those guys and had young kids with him and worked full time and they approached her for sex late at night when she was likely utterly exhausted as a way for them to fall asleep and refused to use porn or masturbate and then fought with her, I'm pretty sure that she and he would be having sex only around once a week, as well. I will bet any amount of money that the sex that WOES and his poor wife had when they were dating, or at least before they were parents of 2 young kids, was more frequent and better than the sex they're having now.
@72, often a bad dynamic grows out of the low-libido partner (LLP) feeling that every time they show any physical affection, or tolerate any physical affection, the high libido partner (HLP) pushes for full on sex.

Dan sometimes suggests taking intercourse off the table for a while, maybe a month, to work on restoring the LLP's ability to show affection through hugs, kisses, pats on the butt, sexual teasing, etc, without feeling that they are committing to getting off the HLP.

sb53 @70, I'm glad you have found a rhythm that works for you and your Miss N.
@74 good points. in context, yeah, he should be more understanding it seems. so i guess i'd just say to the letter writer, you can't compare her past experiences with your current and draw the conclusion that you are.

@75 that's a good point as well. it's a trap they both have to get out of before it can get better.
@75 Thnx E.P. In the years of reading and writing here on SL I have learned a lot about myself and how I look at my relationship. You, Dan and others writing here brought me out of me looking at the marriage from my perspective only, and rather giving her position equal weight. Not easy to do since she does not like to talk about our sex life.
This rhythm (thanks for that word) makes me feel sexy when she wants it, and I don't feel rejected in between times.
Hacksaw @20 and Ghostdog @71, I'm so sorry you experienced those sexual traumas. No kid should have to experience what Hacksaw did while in the care of a trusted babysitter, and the porn fantasy of the lusty female forcing herself on an unwilling man is neither fun nor sexy when it happens in real life. Thank you both for having the courage to tell your stories here. Female-on-male sexual assaults are much rarer than male-on-female, but they are just as emotionally devastating for the victims - and many men face scorn and disparagement if they try to access the robust support systems and trained counseling services that are readily available for female sexual assault victims. I hope you have both been able to move forward as adults to experience the joys of positive, loving partnered sex. Many thanks to Dan for pointing out to SNTTT that both our girls AND our boys need to be taught that no one is allowed to touch them without their permission, and that parents will always be on their side and will get them away from any bad person who tries.

Nothing really to say about the first two letters that hasn't already been said multiple times. LW1 appears to be a self-absorbed man-child who needs to grow up and appreciate his wife as more than just a sleeping aid and a vessel for his pre-slumber spunk. As for LW2...what exactly is holding you back from walking out today, no ordeal or lengthy argument with the BF required? To quote Glinda the Good Witch, "You don't need to be helped any longer. You've always had the power to go back to Kansas."
Confidential to WOES, there are plenty of women who find sex helps them sleep.

Honestly, I do my best but it's hard some days.

For reasons that I can't quite figure out this election has really triggered a lot of feelings about it. Oddly enough, the root of my assault, in both cases, was a bank shot misogynist misunderstanding and that is this.

If a woman who a guy finds attractive offers sex, the guy will take it no matter what the circumstances.

In the first case I didn't want sex because I wanted to check in with the woman's other partner to make sure he was doing poly because he wanted to as opposed to being strung along by a pretty girl.

In the second case I didn't want sex because the girl in question was an obvious train wreck that I knew that sex with her would only end in tears.

Neither of them could accept that answer and thought that they just needed to "act dommy", which in both cases translated to trying to wrestle me into doing what they wanted, which was fuck them.

I sometimes wish I would have gone along. Yeah, it would have sucked and yeah I would have done something against my ethic in both cases but at least I wouldn't be as broke as I am now.
If WOES is asking the question he wants people to think he's asking - "What else can I do to get myself off?" I'd suggest erotic romance novels. Fair enough, you don't like porn - plenty of people don't. I don't, really. I like a little bit of amateur and a bit of hentai, but the majority of porn I find emotionless and unsexy. So I suggest getting yourself a nice Harlequin romance - or if you're a bit more modern than I am, a Brazen, or even one of those urban fantasies that people keep sending me; something sexy but romantic like Gina L. Maxwell or Rebecca York or Katie MacAlister - and see if that turns your crank more than porn does.

However, I think what WOES is really asking is "What can I say to my wife to make her have sex with me more often?" Can't help you there.
@66 BiDanFan: That's what I thought, too. Thanks for the clarification.
I'm lucky to just be an auntie. From a safe distance I'm currently quietly savoring a delightfully wicked backlash my older sisters, Driscilla and Anastacia, are facing three decades later, after "do-as-I-say,-not-as-I-do" helicopter parenting and /or spoiling their own children (& my nieces and nephews) atrociously rotten. I'm the baby and an outsider to my older sibs. I was never respected, and whose company was ever appreciated. With the exception of my great-nephew, they're all adults; they don't need my intervention--and probably wouldn't want any unsolicited advice from me, anyway.
You're right, BiDanFan---I'm not an "Entitled Parent" by a long shot, but I bet my sisters would argue that they deserve to be under that category. They're both on Call Block for good reason. They can't harrass me via long distance if they can't reach me.

@69 Commentor Comitatus: Congrats on hitting the lucky number this week!
@70 sb53: Agreed about Woody Allen---sarcastic wit = funny
incest = high ew factor creepy
@GhostDog: I'm sorry you had those experiences. They sound awful.
@Hacksaw: Sending virtual hugs. That shouldn't have happened to you.
@sb53: I am glad that you and your Miss M have arrived at something that works for both of you and keeps your marriage intact.
@20 Hacksaw and @71 GhostDog: I am equally sorry to read about your traumatizing experiences. Neither of you should have had to go through that. Your shared stories
offer further evidence that abuse is not gender-biased and can go both ways.
Sending you both big hugs.
@70 & @77 sb53: Wonderful news about you and Miss N. Sending big hugs and VW beeps your way.
@STUCK - If you don't want to have a conversation about breaking up with your boyfriend... don't have a conversation. Just break up. A person who gaslights your feelings doesn't deserve an honest, heartfelt in-person explanation for why you want to move on, because they won't accept it anyway.

Make a plan to extricate your lives. What do you share? Living space? Personal belongings? Have a plan for packing up your stuff in one day (if it's his name on the lease) or staying with a friend while he packs up his stuff (if it's yours). Inform him that you're breaking up via email, then block him on all fronts EXCEPT email (phone, twitter, facebook, etc.). If you have any close friends who can help you out, they might be willing to act as a buffer for any of his arguments or other bullshit. I'd certainly be up for playing that role for any of my friends in a similarly crappy relationship. Having some platonic support during the break-up probably won't hurt either.

Point is, if an unhappy scene is all that's keeping you in this shitty spot, go ahead and press the fast-forward button on that bullshit. If his arguing against breaking up stresses you out, don't give him the chance to argue. He already knows you're not happy in the relationship, so it's not like you're going to blind side him with this. There's no shame in a text message break-up when it's to preserve your own emotional safety and sanity. YOU CAN DO THIS! And you'll be so much happier when you do!

Good luck!
LW2, he argues with you about your feelings? Tries to make them more rational. When I read that I felt tired.
Unless you signed some iron clad contract where you surrender your feelings to others to articulate for you, give this freak the flip. He's gone into dangerous territory assuming that messy D role for himself. He's all over the place.
Maybe disentangling the D/s dynamic is where you need to start shaking this man out of his stupor.
Ghost Dog @71: You are right; not all rapists are men and not all rape victims are women. It can be done by anyone to anyone. The dynamics are different -- you were capable of pushing your assailants away, whereas few women can physically push off a determined man -- but on the flip side, you probably got a lot less sympathy (and I'm willing to bet a few boneheaded "You're lucky!"s. Ughhh.) I'm sorry this happened to you.

Sportlandia @79: How is that supposed to make WOES feel better?

Sati @81: One idea I had, if his wife is game, is that perhaps she could shoot some sexy videos or photos, or they could film themselves having sex. He might feel a lot less ethically compromised looking at porn of his own wife. (There's the whole "what if the kids find it" dilemma, but that's theirs to solve.)
While I vaguely sympathize with WOES, since for years I have found orgasm to be a very reliable sleep aid, I can't wrap my head around him using his wife as an orgasm aid. As a woman, it would never occur to me to have sex with a man just to get to sleep. This is because it would never occur to me that having sex with a man is a reliable way to have an orgasm. (In practice, I've never had one from PIV sex...pretty normal for a female.) I'd like to think I wouldn't be inclined to use another person in that way, but who knows? People can drift into dysfunctional patterns if there is no obstacle/nobody to call out the problem. I'm glad everyone here is pointing out the problem.
For WOES wife, though, I will allude to my experience of early parenting, I.e. It is so much easier to be a single parent than it is to have a whiny man-child supposed partner behaving as an extra offspring. My libido tanked during pregnancy and after childbirth. It was years before I wanted to have sex again. While it might have been nice to have a contributing partner, I was very happy not to have some dude hanging around begging for sex. Yeah, single parenting is hard, but when compared to being forced to fight or have sex every night, I would take it every time. WOES might want to consider...if his wife does the "am I better off with him or without him" calculation, what would be the result? If it is only the prospect of poverty keeping her married to you, you might want to back off. She might be able to make more money being a regular sex worker instead of being a defacto one with you as her only client. How many more sleep deprived days will it take her to realize this?
As a formerly high sex drive person whose libido dipped after having a kid, I have experience on both sides of this issue. I remember the feeling of rejection when I had a higher sex drive than my former partners, and I don't want that for my husband now. That said, I usually want PIV just once a week too. On other nights, I happily give head (my husband offers to reciprocate but I usually don't want it unless it's also a PIV night), jerk him off, talk dirty, or let him fuck my tits. And when he works late or I'm really not feeling it at all, we came up with a great solution that made us both happy: we made a little porn stash for him by recording some blowjob sessions. He prefers this to internet porn too (which I wouldn't have a problem with, but he has similar feelings to WOES) and I still feel like i've done something for him even while I'm passed out in bed.
@88 sqidgey. Orgasm during sex is hard for women, why is that. I have only been able to orgasm during sex if I'm on top and I can navigate the pressure on my clitoris.
Good point. Sex shouldn't be seen as a sleep aid. Self pleasuring is much better for that.
Lazy Sunday morning here. Hope your Halloween goes well🤓
glutenisgood @ 90
Not questioning your authenticity, looks like you have a great relationship going on, just want to comment that it sounds almost too good to be true. I hope husband is appreciative and happily reciprocating in many other ways.
or was it @ 89
Lava- rest assured, you're good too.
TBH I stopped reading comments at around 20 or so because I just wanted to add a remark about Dan's comment for LW2:

we kiss them, suck them, fuck them, spank them, spoon them, marry them, collar them

It seems like this is the order in which relationships progress. Beautiful. I recommend this for private anniversary / marriage renewal vow celebrations. In this order, and then repeat.
WOES - She won't let you stick your face in her pussy and beat off at night? (I'm assuming you know what to do down there if you're married.. if not, fix it) Then I'd recommend an open companionate marriage or divorce.

STUCK - when I talk about my feelings in the relationship, he argues with me—about what my feelings are or should rationally be.
And why are you with the kind of idiot who wants to tell you who you are? The finances sound tame next to this problem. Do you just sit there and nod along while he tells you what you want? How does this work? My best guess is..
"I don't like how you treat me. I want to see other people."
"No you don't. You said you wanted to be with me so this doesn't make sense."
"Oh ok."

SNTTT - Nice one Dan. Really sexist of SNTTT to arm daughters better than sons re personal boundaries and self care. Sexual assault may be more of a problem for women but general physical assault is more of a problem for men, so they also need to learn intolerance for unconsensual physical imposition. The missing piece of teaching daughters that it's disrespectful to pressure boys to be affectionate.. kind of bugged me a little..
@95, 96: victim-blaming really isn't helpful. Pointing out he's gaslighting her, suggesting practical to getting out of this and staying out of this kind of thing in future, sure. Making people feel dumb for being ill-used is kicking them when they're down.
My eyes just relighted on this passage, from Dan's advice to WOES:
"Consider PIV from your wife's perspective: Her husband fucks, comes, and falls asleep. She lies there for a while afterward, tingling, and may have to go to the bathroom once or twice."

"Tingling"? I'm not sure what he meant by that.

Also what would be behind a second trip to the bathroom? Surely that would be bladder-related, not sex-related? And shouldn't men be peeing after sex to avoid UTIs as well?
@97: StrangerMyself, I don't understand the piling-on on the second lw, either. STUCK says "I am really ground down by this. The prospect of breaking up feels like it will be an ordeal. I feel trapped." I think Dan's response was perfect, and I don't see the point of telling STUCK that she is partly responsible for her situation. She may well know that or feel that. The point is that she does't need her bf's permission to leave or break up--she just goes. Maybe she goes after he has left the house and he finds out via a one-sided piece of communication, like a letter that he can't argue with. Then for a while, she blocks his calls and texts, blocks him on social media, doesn't read his emails, and waits until she's less susceptible to be argued back into a dysfunctional relationship to have any communication--if ever.

@98: BiDanFan, that is what I meant when I wrote my post @29. Not having a vagina himself, I think Dan frequently overestimates the severity of the after-effects of PIV sex on the vagina.
Nocute @99: That was a very good point indeed. Dan also may overestimate this because women write in complaining that they get sore. The ones who don't get sore don't complain.

"Tingling" is still an odd word. Sounds like what you'd feel if you used Vicks Vap-O-Rub instead of lube. Certainly not the feeling you'd get after too much PIV with a too-endowed fellow.
BDF @98
And shouldn't men be peeing after sex to avoid UTIs as well?

Not only to avoid UTIs. Peeing after orgasming is a good way to flush remaining sperm away which would otherwise leak out.
@99 & @100 - I relate slightly to the 'tingling', which sounds a bit like being left unsatisfied. At least, when I was young and unknowledgeable about how to go about taking care of my own pleasure, 'tingling' is very much the sensation I would be left with after my bf at the time was done with his business. Presumably, WOES' wife would know how to take care of herself if she actually wanted to get off at that point, but it would still be rather frustrating to have to deal with it while an insensitive clod snored next to you.
Sanguisuga, maybe being left unsatisfied make you feel like you're tingling, but I've heard Dan take about how hard it is on a vagina to be fucked before, always when telling men to consider acts other than PIV as constituting "sex," and he's generally not talking about being left unsatisfied, so much as he seems to assume that it takes a lot out of a vagina to be fucked. I will concede that I could easily be convinced that WOES' wife isn't orgasming every time they have sex, and the letter as written doesn't make it sound as though WOES cares if his wife is satisfied or not. But there's really no reason to conclude that his wife is tingling with frustration any more than Dan means that all women are "tingling" after having sex.
Sanguisuga @102: Ahhhh, the "blue balls" or equivalent female sensation. Thank you, that makes sense! Interesting that there's not really a word for that. I know that feeling, but would never think of it as a "tingle" -- more an ache or throb.

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