Savage Love

Cuck Everlasting

Comments

1
Holy fuck! This whole "cuck" meme is driving me nuts! Thanks for trying to rehabilitate the term, Dan, but I wonder if the trolls who hurl it actually mean to be derogatory. Trump and his followers project so much it's blinding.
2
Let's face it: you can't be cuckolded if you have no-one to lose.
3
So what do you call the presumably-more-common boyfriend who wants his girlfriend to cheat with ladies?
4
A clitcold?
5
LW1 needs to lead with the non-fantasy/sex identity stuff and go from there. But definitely start by meeting women who are already into the same scene.

Beyond that, I've got nothing.
6
@3 a guy?
7
I really don't understand why a well adjusted person would want or enjoy being humiliated. Ultimately it is a form of dominance. I know every one has their kink or fetish. To me Donald Trump is cuckholding the country and everyone in it. Does that mean that anyone into cuckholding should support him?
8
Beccoid @3: "Straight."
9
Wonder what Hunter will make of the H in Alpha's signoff, or Dan's statement that "cuckolds get off on feeling humiliated and jealous" in reply to LW4? A fascinating discussion is sure to ensue... *snore*
10
Skeptic @7: I don't understand why anyone would have a foot fetish. That's why it's called a "fetish." These things just are. It's either your thing or it isn't; many of us have different desires in bed than out. I would far prefer to be the person doing the humiliating, if there is humiliating to be done; but apparently few people, and very few women, share my perspective, hence ALPHA's letter. I would think there would be plenty of women willing to fuck whoever they wanted while their partner remained submissive and faithful, but clearly not.
11
Ms Oid - Probably some version of D*** Daddy.
12
No, Mr Savage - C*** is the new F***** (as it's very dodgy whether the F word is an insult any more; straight people are bonding with it - LMB). You almost always overplay your insults, as if you sincerely think that's a path to ensure one-party Democratic rule in perpetuity. It's backfiring, darling. Empathizing with the Values Voters instead would have helped those who want to peel away from the Trump Train to follow their consciences and vote third party instead of making them instantly defensive, which is when they default to instinctive opposition of you.

*****

It is disappointing to hear otherwise scholarly people resort to the C word, which does seem to be having a bad effect on their characters. I had thought that I would never use the word myself, but can imagine one scenario in which I might. As the scenario should amuse more than half of the assembled company, I relate it:

Imagine a scenario in which I am thrown off a building. (I shall wait for the raucous applause from the assembled company to die down; I have no objection to anybody's entirely approving of such an occurrence.) Now, given his recent form, it seems conceivable that, as I am being tossed over the edge (more applause, unless that would be an excess of vanity), Mr Savage might apologize to my executioners (whoever they may be, as I suspect there could well be multiple aspirants to the office) for my many sins against them. I'm not sure that I'd entirely blame him for doing so; after all, he has many calls upon his purse (like Roger Ackroyd). But, while falling, I must admit I'd be tempted to resort to the C word.
13
“Most women, even dominant women, are still looking for guys who look like they ‘kick ass and take names’ in every other aspect of their lives,” said FleeMarket (u/flee_market), one of the moderators of r/cuckold on Reddit.


The most depressing sentence in this week’s SL.
14
GasparFagel @13, I'll second that. Surely we're moving past that tired old cliche. "kick ass and take names", "shoot first and ask questions later", "were going to build a wall".....surely we've had enough macho bullshit bluster to last a lifetime.
15
I can see why right wing machos use “cuck” to degrade others, as “faggot” and “sissy” are not that PC anymore and have also lost some of their humiliation potency.

Humiliation/being submissive is also a way of letting go of an otherwise fairly controlled life, and I suspect quite a few executives and other seemingly confident people may be into this.
It should be noted though that not all who like knowing/watching their partners fucking others are being humiliated.

FleeMarket is probably boasting his own machoness to tell us he’s not a full time sissy, only in some aspects of his life.
It’s more of a self-assurance than anything else, similar to “crossdressers,” I’m using an umbrella term here, who need to declare they only fuck women in order to assure themselves and others they are not “faggots.”
16
BDF @ 10
I would also prefer you being “the person doing the humiliating, if there is humiliating to be done.” And there may be, but you’ll have to ask nice.
17

Venn @ 12
I can see one of those angels from Wim Wenders’ “Angels Over Berlin” (which got the highly sexualized title “Wings of Desire” in the US) coming down to earth and saving you just in time.
What word would you use then?
18
Gaspar @13: I wouldn't put much stock in that. "Most" men like big boobs. And yet, being entirely the opposite, I've never been short of male attention. This dominant gal would far prefer a slightly built, effeminate, passive chap who looks like he'd let me kick his ass and take his name. And number. And I am far from alone, so don't despair.

CMD @15: "It should be noted though that not all who like knowing/watching their partners fucking others are being humiliated."
I'm sure Hunter will correct us, but it was my understanding that there were different terms for these types of people/interests, such as "hotwifing" and "swinging." It's my revised understanding that, as you say, these interests have now been subsumed by the fetish community under what has now become an umbrella term, "cuckolding," which used to mean someone turned on by the humiliation of being cheated on by his partner, but can now also mean someone into hotwifing, aka cuckolding without the humiliation.

CMD @16: Fear not, all humiliation is consensual... unless you're a Trump or Brexit supporter with their usual number of brain cells, in which case I shall humiliate you to the best of my online ability.
19
@13 Most women are looking for "guys who look like they ‘kick ass and take names’"

The bigger they are, the hotter the cuckolding is. Speaking as an old, short, fat, balding guy who is often selected as the FWB partner, this seems to be the case. It's not as big a deal to cuck a spineless jellyfish.
20
@8 could be bi ;)
21
"but I need to know someone before letting him in my body." Jeez what a prude.
22
@8's answer to @3's question should win the thread and deserves repeating:

@3 "So what do you call the presumably-more-common boyfriend who wants his girlfriend to cheat with ladies?"

@8 "Straight."

(perhaps my answer @6 "a guy?" can get honorable mention)
23
@3 "Chickold"?
24
Lol at using "C***" and "the C word" in a thread about sexual fetishes. Dude, just write out the fucking word. We're all adults here, and trying to simultaneously employ and obscure a word just makes you look silly. Who do you think you're fooling? As Geoffrey Nunberg so memorably put it, "Concealing the letters of a word with asterisks is the orthographic equivalent of covering them with pasties and a G-string."
25
Delta35 @20: Bi guys don't fetishise their partners' bisexuality. They may want their girlfriends to play with girls, but for other reasons -- ie, so that they can also have the option to play with boys.

Thanks for the wins-the-thread award so early in the week!
26
It doesn't surprise me that comparatively few women are into having a partner with a cuck fetish. Women in long term relationships more typically like to feel cherished and bonded. They more typically value (or fetishize, if you wish) the idea of mutual romantic love - which kind of precludes enjoying cruelty and humiliation towards thier partner. Yes, yes, I understand that the cruelty and humiliation is a) not a part of every cuck's fantasy and b) consensual. I'm just saying it is kind of at odds with the most common variety of cis-het-female sexuality. Said as a garden variety cis-het-female.
27
@13: #notallwomen as the kids say these days. You couldn't pay me to date some alpha-douche.
28
While it's probably better to not lead with this fetish, it seems to me that it would be helpful to at least seek out women who aren't monogamous to begin with. It's not at all surprising that a monogamous woman is put off by the idea of sex with other men. That's a big part of why she's monogamous in the first place.

And while it's normal to indulge your partner once in a while, having sex with a person you wouldn't normally want to have sex with is a HUGE favor that goes way and beyond being GGG for most people, particularly monogamous ones!

So my advice for cuckolds is to not put monogamy on the plate if it isn't what you want. Telling a polly partner that you personally won't have sex with others is far lower risk than expecting a monogamous partner to suddenly have multiple fuck buddies for *your* benefit.
29
Gueralinda @26: "They more typically value (or fetishize, if you wish) the idea of mutual romantic love"
It's not a "fetish" if most people share it.
That's why feet are considered a "fetish" and breasts are not.

And a woman can enjoy cuckolding for different reasons to her partner. Her partner may get off on being humiliated. She may just enjoy fucking a variety of men. It is not necessary for her to feel as if she is humiliating him, in order for him to feel humiliated.

Steamed Hams @28: That follows my point nicely, thank you. A poly woman may be well up for dating a cuckold fetishist, particularly since she is used to having multiple partners and the only change for her would be sharing the details of her sex life, which we normally don't do.
30
BiDi - I thought I put enough qualifiers I to my letter, but apparently not. Sure, there are all sorts of exceptions. I was just trying to say that cuckolding is not a fetish that is particularly compatible with typical (qualifier) feminine ideas about love. And I threw in that comment about "fetishizing" gestures of romantic love because I was anticipating that someone would call it that later in the thread. But now that I think about it, I might say that there's a difference between "a fetish," meaning an unusual kink that one needs to be part of one's sex life to be happy, and the verb "fetishize." A person might take any ordinary detail of sex/love and raise it to the level of a fetish - think about a woman who obsesses over the carats in her engagement ring, or who insists on elaborate celebrations of every milestone. You can fetishize anything - doesn't have to be an actual fetish. If that makes any sense.
31
@venn: It's backfiring, darling.

Some time ago, you made an ominous reference to the coming backlash that left me scratching my head. A few days later, I was thumbing through Out Magazine in a waiting room and came across a profile about an extremely charismatic gay conservative agitator. After watching a few videos on YouTube, I believe I now understand what you're talking about.

There's so much to say about it, but it would be pointless to open that discussion here. That pointlessness is, of course, one of the reasons why the backlash is happening.

I've always seen (and admired) Dan as a classic liberal, a fact for which he has taken considerable abuse, and not just from the right. I would imagine the impact is greater when it's coming from close to home.
32
Holmes @ 13
I wonder if the women involved also get as much as a kick while doing it with someone who, at least in appearance and based on your description, is deemed as inferior to their men.
As for age, I would assume it is more common to see couples opt for a younger man in this context, but will have no issue with being corrected.

SDW @ 24
Speaking of issues- this particular writing style may not be your thing and that’s ok, but is it really worth it to get so emotional and hostile over this?
33
@10/BiDanFan: "I would far prefer to be the person doing the humiliating, if there is humiliating to be done; but apparently few people, and very few women, share my perspective."

I suppose I have to agree that it appears that very few women are interested in humiliation their partners. I base that on the letters Dan receives from submissive men who have trouble finding partners interested in their kinks. But do you think there is also a small pool of men who are excited by humiliating their partners?
34
Sublime @ 33 - the pool of men who are excited by humiliating their partners is unfortunately not a small one.
35
It may be a mistake to specifically seek out women who appear dominant in life. Just as assertive women in leadership positions often like to be dominated in the bedroom because it provides a relaxing change of pace from being in charge all the time, I know a few meeker-seeming housewives/nannies/librarians who are very dominant sexually. When much of your time is spent caring for others, or working in a submissive job where other peoples' needs are the priority and you have to be polite all the time, a partner who encourages you to be dominant and even a little selfish can be very appealing. The quiet ones can surprise you!
36
@34 If they only do it with partners who are turned on by it (consent), why is that so unfortunate? Some form of humiliation is common in D/S relationships. Surely, not every dominant male/submissive female couple needs to be trained that they're doing it wrong.
37
@32: I think cuckolding is about humiliation. And the further down the scale one goes (in one's partner's eyes), the worse that humiliation is.

That's why there are fantasies (and acted out instances) of a wife cuckolding her wealthy, professional husband with Bubba the jock, the pool boy or the gardener. On the other hand, in balanced polyamorous relationships, partners tend to play with their equals.
38
Mx Wanna - I cannot conceive of any angel's deigning to save me, except perhaps the spirit of Miss Austen if she approves of me, which she likely doesn't.

*****

M? Woof - Then you've seen why there would be so much appeal in an S/Y debate. Perhaps Mr Savage was a classical liberal at one time, but he's done nothing but hurl abuse for almost the last six months now, and he's not helping. Yelling laundry lists of leftist complaints against Mr Trump will just make Trump supporters all the prouder, because they have come to wear the abuse as a badge of honour. Monday evening I said the exact converse to a Trump suppoerter who was ranting that Mrs C has to spend the rest of her life in prison, that rightist abuse of her just makes hardcore Clinton voters all the more convinced that they're fighting the good fight against rampant misogyny. And neither side is moving more than one or two people in the middle. If people have turned the other cheek 490 times, #491 won't be too much for that many.
40
Holmes- I get the concept, the different motivations, and the need to raise the bar as things progress. Provided you’re ok answering this question I still wonder how common are wife-driven scenarios in which they end up with an older, chubby guy.
41
Wittol! Now I have a word for my kind of relationship! That is, asymmetrical consensual nonmonogamy that is neither cuckolding nor hotwifing. My partner sleeping with other men doesn't make me feel like any more or less of a man. The fact that it feels a bit "naughty" is certainly a plus. But mostly, I'm just happy that my partner is happy, and that both our needs are being met.
42
I have nothing to add from any personal experience of my own, but want to thank you, Dan, LWs, and commenters for yet again offering another sexually enlightening week. Kudos to all.

@40 ..like OLDER?
43
@venn: I don't disagree. As for the debate, it could be fascinating if it were about anything other than the current presidential election, a topic from which no productive discussion could possibly emerge.

Is no honorific one of my options? I appreciate and enjoy your sense of decorum, but I don't want to mislead, and there are some things about myself I'd rather weren't emphasized around here.
44
@26, consider that the woman in a het cuckolding relationship bears a disproportionate amount of physical risk compared to the man.

Unless she's surgically sterile or postmenopausal, there's always a risk that she could become pregnant by the play-partner. If the person is a stranger, there's the risk that he could have an STI, that he could be violent or a creeper, or simply that he's a lousy fuck...and one of the main objectives of her taking on all this additional physical risk is so that her man partner can get his rocks off. That's a lot to ask of somebody who's not really all that into it.

Even without the physical risk, as LW #2 pointed out, she had to do all the work to get one man's rocks and he belittled her and berated her for not doing HIS fantasy exactly the way she was supposed to. Her new partner wanted her to find strangers, but backed off when she refused due to the physical risks. The other thing with her finding strangers is that beyond a doubt SHE would be the one trolling the internet looking for strange, and doing all of that work so that...her man could get his rocks off.

Those things alone would put me off wanting to do something like this. I'm not at all surprised that having to do all the work for somebody else's sexual gratification puts plenty of other women off, too.
45
@40: "I still wonder how common are wife-driven scenarios in which they end up with an older, chubby guy."

I don't know how common that particular scenario is. Common enough that I get approached.
46
Chubby can be good Holmes.
I don't read in LW1, that he's into being humiliated. I read submissive.
And yes LW, FetLife, go to munches etc etc.
You do present as an interesting case. Personally , if I was taken by submissive men, I'd find you an attractive combination.
Maybe to get over the stereotype, develop certain skills. Develop your cooking, for example.
Or you could be up on what vegetables/ herbs need planting when.
You've got to get yourself an edge.
47
Aunt Zelda @ 42
“old, short, fat, balding guy who is often selected as the FWB partner,“ and per my request assured us again that it is a wife-initiated scenario.
48
Guera @30: I got your meaning. I don't disagree with you; I was merely pointing out that, while you are absolutely correct that not many women want to humiliate their partners, comparatively more (but still few) are into having a relationship that is open on their end, for reasons other than humiliating their partners, but which their partners might still find enjoyably humiliating. Got me?

And after I typed my reply, I recalled that I myself had used the word "fetishise" (apols, but not, for British spelling) in relation to straight guys getting turned on by their girlfriends' bisexuality, which is far from uncommon.

DCP123 @36: Because they don't; that was the point.

Holmes @37: Um wow. Wealthy men really view "Bubba the jock" or the pool boy as "further down the scale" than themselves? I'm glad I don't date wealthy men. Aren't these the same wealthy men who sometimes go to strip clubs or shag the nanny? Surely they can see the point of fancying someone because they're young and have a great body?
As a poly, I certainly don't ask to see a potential partner's payslips before I determine whether they are my "equal." Wow.

DavePi @41: I would describe your relationship as "mono/poly". Congrats on finding a relationship that works for you both! Your partner is one lucky gal.
49
I will never 'get' people who explain basic fetishes in their letters (or calls to the podcast), like Dan's never heard of it before. (Unless that's something Dan edits in to save time explaining in his response.)
50
Its a more common fantasy than many probably think. I have it. It took many years before I was able to share it with my wife. We talked and she said "I dont think I can do it for real" but she was glad to role play it and she gets off on the role play now very much. We are both good with that. She even told me this morning that she had a dream last night about a boyfriend from high school where she met up with him and went on a date with him as I asked her. He was into doing her but when she found out he was married she sent him away. (in her dream)
51
Those rape apologist sociopaths known as redpills are also reigniting the negative associations with cuck. Basically, if you don't despise women and you think they should be treated as human beings and not (as they say) hamsters, sluts, and sex things, if you're happy in an equal, sex positive, healthy relationship, you're a betacuck. The only lifestyle they approve of is one filled with bitterness, anger, entitlement, and hate.

I've also gathered that cuck is a general insult among millennials, but I could be wrong.
52
BDF @ 48
I think Holmes meant a socio-economic difference that may be sexually triggering to some, just like other possible factors such as age difference, race, or appearance.
I thought he did make a distinction between specific cuck-related activities and “ordinary” poly dating.
My understanding of his use of the word “equal” in this context is more in terms of relationships and interactions, not necessarily bank accounts.
53
@52: "more in terms of relationships and interactions, not necessarily bank accounts."

This, exactly.

Back in my generation (You kids stay off my lawn!) the idea of wealthy men hanging around the strip club or shagging the nanny was the norm. Not so much anymore. One thing 'enlightened' men have picked up from the sexual revolution (BTW, who won that?) was that there is some value in pairing up with social, emotional, professional, etc. equals. The parameters of attraction go well beyond just the physical. It's also about a power balance. The reason some women put up with Trump's groping was that he had that power and the ability to promote or destroy the women around him, depending on how compliant they were. Today, that shit just doesn't fly anymore.

Happily, I have observed that the supply of independent, professional, educated women has increased dramatically. So at least for us guys, the pickings are getting better. On the other hand, I do feel sorry for the women who are attracted to Bubba the Jock types. The salary and social status bonus attributed to male physical appearance is disappearing. Or it never existed beyond PR campaigns of the Bubba crowd. So when I talk to women who want a hot hunk, it's usually them that complain about being limited to the maintenance guy. The hot looking stud/CEO/PhD appears to be a unicorn these days.
54
@51 How do you treat hamsters!!?!?
55
God. I'm so over everybody's complaints. Soldier on.
No. just kidding. Just wanted to divert to a book share. Been reading the book by Anderson Cooper and his famous mother. Wow. Such a beautiful sharing between mother and son. It's been giving me solace during these difficult times where the lunatics seem to have taken over the asylum.
56
Holmes @ 53
As for the lawn- it is my guess that many of the regular contributors here, myself included, are well over 40 and beyond.

As for my earlier question- admittedly not that familiar with the cuckolding scene I assume it is initiated mostly by the men, and the women involved get to do it with hot guys is an incentive to go along. Now you’re saying there are quite a few cases in which the women are so much into humiliating their men in the first place, that they want do it with an older, unattractive guy.
Please clarify.

57
No CMD. I don't read it that way. That what women find attractive, older pudgy guy or younger muscular guy can sometimes just be from the twinkle in their eyes. I'd suggest the partner would be humiliated in different ways, depending on the different types of men she fancied.
58
I'm in a twitter bubble, but Cuck-as-insult (and it's always been an insult, and only very recently been used in a more value-neutral way) is very common on the left, although theoretically "ironically".
59
@ 54 - You keep them in a cage.
60
If a woman is attracted to LW1, with kink in place, then it's the split persona that attracts her. He'd need to keep that balance.
The cuck part of it, my distance self can see it. So, in a fantasy world, there would be no pressure. If he wants his woman to mate with another man, he needs to let her follow her vibe, not his. And be a damn good cook.
61
👠. Just testing.
62
@47 CMDwannabe: Oh. Friends with benefits--gotcha.
But I agree with Lava (@57): we all have different attributes
of what we find attractive, regardless of age.
@61 LavaGirl: Love your shoe icon! Sweet! You GO, Lava!

Everyone please forgive me, however----I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject of cuckholding.
63
I'm just trying to survive the upcoming bloody aftermath during and following November 8th. Griz is considering watching "Carrie" (1976 version) again next Tuesday night to help soften the anguish. And my next PTSD therapy session is next Wednesday afternoon. Fuck.

Okay----back to Cuck Everlasting.
64
When the alt-right crowd first started using 'cuck' as an insult it was short for 'cuckservative'.
Basically, any conservative that claims they aren't racist, homophobic, misogynistic etc is considered a 'cuck' by the 'Shitlords'.
A Shitlord is a proud and open racist, sexist, etc.

Recently, I've seen a few 'trump trolls' throwing the insult 'cuck' at liberals, but I thought that was just newbies miss using the term.

Alt-right freaks have their own little language, like any subculture. I guess their language is evolving.
65
26/gueralinda: Said as a garden variety cis-het-female.

I would have liked hearing how you said it as a hot-and-steamy-jungle-full-of-wild-and-exotic-creatures variety cis-het-female.
66
CMD @52/Holmes @53: Ahh, so a power imbalance rather than a social class imbalance. Gotcha.

But surely, with the advent of women who have their own careers and money, the women who like blue-collar types aka "a bit of rough" have never had it so good? Men are less expected to be sole breadwinners, so women are freer to date the men they're attracted to rather than just the men who are good financial investments? With greater economic equality, men's appearance becomes more important, not less, since women don't need them to pay the bills.

You seem to socialise with some real snobs, I have to say.
67
BDF @66
Men are less expected to be sole breadwinners, so women are freer to date the men they're attracted to rather than just the men who are good financial investments?

One would hope so, but my impression is that there is still a stigma attached to "dating down" for women.
68
We will know true equality has arrived once the female executive asks her trophy husband to humiliate her by having sex with the young pool girl, or an older, chubby lady.

And while BDF may have won the definition award for an earlier related situation, this one may go to infidel @ 23 for "Chickold."
beccoid @ 4 with “Clitcold” may also work.

Make sure to cast your ballot.

69
DCP @ 36, fine if they're into it.
The point I'm making is that there are a lot of men who humiliate their partners who are definitely not into it, but put up with it because they can't afford to leave, don't want to inflict whatever whatever on the kids, don't think they deserve any better, etc. See: rape & domestic violence stats.
70
#68 CMD - hilarious scenario!
71
CMD. @68. Couple of questions. How is it humiliating if the cuck wants this.
Is sexually / psychologically aroused by it. Where is the humiliation in that. And why would the cuck chose his/ her partner's lovers?
Call me pedantic, I just don't think chubby is the right term for a woman. How about curvy.

Still Thinking, that's Patriarchy for you. Where the men get told from the men before that humiliating women is one of the necessities if the system is to be maintained across generations.
Look at trump. Your perhaps Leader and our perhaps Leader. He humiliated his wife, pretty much first joke once he was onstage for the post debate roasting. And look how he tries to humiliate Hillary.
72
Man, I just want to say that I love this thread.
73
M< Woof - The honourific is a tribute to Mr Crisp. I had the great honour of telephoning him about three weeks before he died with a message from a friend we had in common. But this custom one should suit you, and I even have a decent chance of remembering it.
*****
An Endeavour Award for Ms Fan.
*****
An Orlando Award for Ms Lava.
74
@68 CMDwannabe: I'd like to see that!
@69 Still Thinking: Congrats on the lucky number this week.
@71 LavaGirl: I like the word curvy better, too.
75
@66, 67,

In my experience, social stigma plays a part in "dating down," but you also run into issues in the relationship itself.

In my adventures in online dating, I've had men message me to tell me how impressed they are by me...and then deselect themselves from my pool of potential dates because they felt too inferior. I've had men show signs of interest right up until the moment they found out I had a masters degree, at which point it was like watching the blinds roll down in an old Looney Toons cartoon. I've had men be honestly shocked that actually, no, I'm NOT a snob and won't treat them like garbage simply because I have a university education and they don't.

I also have a friend with a PhD and her experiences are the same as mine. When asked about why she isn't having any luck finding a partner, she immediately answered, "My education." Another friend with a MSc (in a culture where arranged marriages are common) has had no takers because the men who would be eligible partners otherwise see her as priced out of the market (her words).

On top of that, it's been shown repeatedly that women in het marriages who earn more than men and have more career success than their spouses are more like to do more housework at home (except cooking), are more likely to divorce, and are more likely to have their husband cheat.

Sources in the link. http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/how-m…

There's stigma, yeah, but it's more complicated than that.
76
I can't buy into the modern dating market re young people. Even though being older does in fact suck, I couldn't go finding a mate thru all those hoops.
Education doesn't just come from a university degree. Some men who head out on their own at seventeen or so, doing a trade, they can be very interesting men. They've learnt to run their own lives, I find that an attractive energy in a man.

Thanks Mr Venn. I like the sound of the Orlando Award. It makes me think of Vita and Virginia and all that crew.

77
slinky @75 Good points.
78
Venn @76, I agree.

But...I worked in a job for years where not only was I the only one in the group with a masters, I was one of only about 4 out of 30 who had a bachelors. Most of them were the kind of bright, clever sort who hawsepiped their way up.

They were the ones who believed sight-unseen that I'd be a snob to them. They were the ones who commented that "That's the second time that XXX group with all their PhDs couldn't solve a problem, it's us hairy coonasses" (that is a literal quote, by the way), when I was the one who not only figured out what the problem was, but how to solve it and the maths behind it. They were the ones who suggested that if I stopped being the smart one and focused on being nicer, I'd have more luck finding a man.

It's exhausting to deal with.
79
CMD @68: Hahaha! Love it :)
Lava @71: Chubby and curvy are two different things. Though I have known many chubby women who prefer to think of themselves as curvy. And, sadly, plenty of deliciously curvy women who think they are fat.
Slinky @75: Aren't you happy that men who are intimidated by smart women are pre-emptively removing themselves from your life, rather than stick around only to make you do all the housework while cheating on you and then divorce you? Who wants a man with low self-esteem?
80
Perhaps it's a good thing women's sexuality is more fluid. I've dated several women with PhDs. Hmm, perhaps this is where I should refocus my dating efforts, if the men are running from them!
81
Lava @ 71
Chubby- I went with the term I thought Holmes was using to describe a type of man. Apparently he wrote, “old, short, fat, balding guy.” Chubby is still better than fat, and if you insist on “curvy” than curvy it is.

Again, I’m not in the cuckold scene, but from what I gather it is similar to other fetishes/kinks in terms of being triggered by known or unknown reasons that don’t change much if any at all.
I can see letting go and some assumed commonalities come to play just like being tied or beaten up or cleaning someone’s kitchen while wearing a sexy maid outfit and pink rubber gloves.
82
BiDanFan @79...it saves me time that they've self-selected out, but that leaves me with fewer pickings to choose from.
83
Most of my friends with doctorates--in fact, all but one--are either single or married to a guy with a doctorate (or maybe an M.D. or a J.D.). I am not sure if that was their preference, or if those were the only guys who were wiling to date them. Probably some combination.
84
Quite a lot of academic high-achievers don't get that there's more than one way to be intelligent, and more than one kind of thing to be intelligent about. Even for the kinds of intelligence they do recognize, they don't always realize academic credentials aren't the only marker for those.

And a bunch more academic high-achievers look down on people that aren't to compensate for how much they found growing up as the nerdy kid can suck.

So a lot of people that expect a condescending attitude from academic types have reason to. And a lot of academic types have good reason to expect they'll be viewed in a hostile way, for all sports of reasons that could helpfully have been left behind in the sandbox.

All that makes for trouble even before the OS baggage kicks in. And a hell of a lot of guys, otherwise good people, get all caught up in fragile masculinity-ideals, and too many women, otherwise good people, are still likely to confirm them in it that by not wanting to date "down".

That still doesn't mean it's not a shame people who could be good for each other to be put off each other, often preemptively, by stuff that's basically BS. Life's hard enough without adding trouble.
85
Was a little tongue in check, CMD and Fan.
How about they have meat on their bones?
86
@83, I'd say a mix of things.

Grad school is a commitment and eats up your time. If you meet and date a fellow grad student, and you both finish out, you both have higher degrees. Otherwise, your time to go out looking is very limited (and serious dating is time-consuming). Grad students are also typically broke, and dating is also a money suck. When your food budget for a month is $300, that $5 latte is more than 1% of your monthly budget.

I chose to stop at an MS instead of a PhD because I judged (rightly) that the added time and expense of getting a doctorate wasn't worth it for career reasons, and in fact I'd be told I'm overqualified for several positions that I would have liked. Even the entry-level jobs that I need to get experience to get better work.

Hmmm....sounds a lot like dating, now that I write that down.

So you take what job you can and hopefully you don't have TOOOO much student debt that you need to pay off. Then hopefully your career path is one that will let you have some free time once in a while.

And finally when it's all done, you're 10 years older and highly educated and that's when the pool of eligible men starts to shrink. If you met in grad school, that makes it easier.
87
This is a long shot, but I wonder where LW1 lives. I'm a westcoast girl who would be interested :)
88
@84. StrangerMyself. Good one, if a tad blunt.
Australia doesn't have this focus on acedemia. Of course there's PHDs running around in their labs or lecture halls and great. On the ground, the diversity of Australian commerce doesn't honour the acedemic. Guess that's why we lose so many of them. We do value them of course. We also value our firemen. Bushfires in NSW at present.
89
nerdyfeminist @87. Let's hope he's reading the comments.
91
Ms Lava - Ah, yes; poor Mrs Woolf. Do you subscribe to the theory that Mr Woolf and Mrs Bell were complicit in pushing her into suicide?
92
Oh. That's a bit of a sad turn, Mr Venn.
I've never entertained thoughts that they pushed her to suicide. They both loved her as I understand it and Virginia was a very disturbed woman. Leonard would never be a type of man I would respond to. And Virginia was perhaps a lesbian and would not own it.
Venessa. Complex woman. I'd say she loved her sister as best she could from her own particular perspective, full as it was of twists and turns.

93
@73 vennominon: What are the Orlando and Endeavor Awards? Something to do with Virginia Woolf? Congrats to LavaGirl and BiDanFan.
@75, @78, & 86 slinky: Congrats on your MS! You're lightyears academically ahead of me (BA of Music). I am sorry, in reading your comments, to learn what you have had to endure in today's modern dating. Venturing out can be pretty costly, indeed. Ugh about those guys if they can't appreciate you for who you are and what you can offer.
I was lucky to have my Montgomery G.I. Chapter 30, savings bonds ( I wasn't totally asleep in bootcamp when a man from Disbursing visited our training group with a double match offer on series EE way back when, and it paid off my community college tuition), a settlement from my divorce, and grants (Pell, SEOG, etc.), along with work study positions. I was fortunate to graduate without taking out any student loans. I don't think I could afford going after a Master's degree today. After dealing with a mortgage and almost losing everything, loans scare the shit out of me. Once was enough.
94
Grizelda. I've no idea what Mr Venn's awards mean. Orlando, for some reason made me think of Virginia. That was my association.
It could be a pirate reference? I'd like to get a pirate award.
95
Hunter @90: No, humiliation was always the factor in dispute. Obviously deception is not the key ingredient, because the cuckolded needs to know what his partner is doing. Otherwise it is just "cheating."

Hope you've enjoyed your holiday this week? Did you go anywhere fun?

Griz @93: I'm not sure what an Endeavour Award is either, though I'm tickled to have received one!

Regarding income and education levels, I suppose these have never been an issue for people in my social group because we've already pretty much filtered out the 90% of the population who don't share our taste in music and clothing.
96
BDF @95 Speaking of taste in music, what do you think of VNV Nation?
97
Ooh ooh I know that wasn't directed at me but I love VnV Nation. Also Wolfsheim. And Vast.

Okay I'll stop now.
98
VNV Nation are ace, best of genre I'd say, along with Project Pitchfork. They put on an amazing live show, which is saying something for a band that consists of two guys and a Mac. Nice guys too.
Actually, I could do with some of their fist pumping anthems in these dark political times.
99
Cool. Until recently I had never even heard of them, but I'm going to see them live later this month. Looking forward to it!
100
And this is how we assimilate others into our tribe, mwahahaha. Enjoy!
101
The Endeavour Award is for Ms Fan's claim of using British spelling, which reminded me of the Morse case Ghost in the Machine, in which Morse spots the flaw in a suicide note, that an Oxford professor would have used a zed.

The Orlando Award did not originally refer to Mrs Woolf, but I do thank Ms Lava for reminding me of rivers. I'll have to see if I can collect any sufficiently heavy stones.
102
Coping with this surreal time, is difficult. I've been listening to Bobby Dylan's early songs.
He never wanted to be some poster boy for anything yet he wrote powerful political songs.